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Adjust/remove Advanced Spaceship Command skill

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Michael Weaver Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2016.01.29 13:12:25 - [1] - Quote Since the new requirement for skill queue is going to be : "meet all prerequisites before beginning to train a skill ", I think it's good time to revisit the Advanced Spaceship Command skill, which serves absolutely no purpose at the moment except as a time sink. Why does it concern me? The skill was changed in the past, so there are pilots like me out there who can fly Freighters without actually having ASP at level 5. With the new change I will have to train ASP to 5 before I can train Freighters any further. What does the skill do? Almost nothing - it adds 5% to agility of capships per level, however if you are a new player there is currently no way to train for cap ship without actually having this skill at 5 and there is nothing unlocked by training it just to level 1 or level 4, so for most players it's fixed 25% bonus. Being 5x rank skill it's basically a big time sink. What should be done IMO? The skill should be either removed completely - remember you still need to train "Capital ships" before training for a combat capship, or requirements for big ships adjusted to make sense, for example - Freighters would need ASP1, Industrial cap ships ASP3, Jump Freighters ASP4 and Combat capitals ASP5.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 433	Posted - 2016.01.29 13:46:58 - [2] - Quote Just another skill everyone's gonna suck the life out of and use elsewhere come next patch.
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1011	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:12:16 - [3] - Quote You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking?
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1126	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:14:34 - [4] - Quote Oh look, it's the 2016 "Command ship train suuuuuuucks" thread.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 736	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:24:40 - [5] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking? This was my first thought. A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 433	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:31:34 - [6] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking? This was my first thought. A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless. You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1126	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:42:00 - [7] - Quote Daniela Doran wrote: Donnachadh wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking? This was my first thought. A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless. You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to. The bonus is very welcome in caps. I know guys running about with <15s align carriers. I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class. It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus". However, my original point remains. Whine thread is whiney.
Daniela Doran Ministry of War Amarr Empire 433	Posted - 2016.01.29 14:51:02 - [8] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Daniela Doran wrote: Donnachadh wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: You think 5% agility per level provides nothing? What are you smoking? This was my first thought. A skill that provides a 5% per level bonus is hardly worthless. You guys aren't reading which ships that 5% agility bonus per level applies to. The bonus is very welcome in caps. I know guys running about with <15s align carriers. I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class. It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus". However, my original point remains. Whine thread is whiney. Exactly, not everyone is into Caps. In any case it will be the first skill I delete from all my chars and use elsewhere come next patch.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1127	Posted - 2016.01.29 15:30:46 - [9] - Quote So why the heck did you train it? It only applies to ships that need it.
unidenify Plundering Penguins Solyaris Chtonium 173	Posted - 2016.01.29 16:35:36 - [10] - Quote it is time sink, and do its job. not CCP fault that you didn't bother to read skillbook description. train it only if you need to.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 115	Posted - 2016.01.29 16:46:58 - [11] - Quote Rather agree-ish with the OP. Though, I think this skill needs something added, not taken away. As is, you get no benefit from training the skill from 1-4, because you can't even pilot a cap without having this at 5. Perhaps if the skill unlocked something along the way... Or perhaps better, if certain non-cap ships could take advantage of the skill as a ship bonus or something. The big thing that gets me, is that there is no real choice to make. Either you have the skill trained to V, or you might as well as not have the skill injected at all. Yes, 25% is nothing to scoff at. But y'know neither is 20%. However a player won't get 20%. She MUST jump straight to 25%. "Choices" that are not choices is bad game design. I know that this skill wasn't designed this way from the beginning, but it just got morphed to its current state over time; however, I think it's well past time to overhaul this skill. Keep it around, sure, but give the players some real choice to make when training this skill other than the binary 'capital use: on/off'. Old thread: http://eve-search.com/thread/228292-1/page/1 --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Estella Osoka Perkone Caldari State 1013	Posted - 2016.01.29 16:49:41 - [12] - Quote unidenify wrote: it is time sink, and do its job. not CCP fault that you didn't bother to read skillbook description. train it only if you need to. Oh? You want your freighter to align slower? Gankers will rejoice.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1787	Posted - 2016.01.29 17:04:35 - [13] - Quote Not to mess with everyone's skewed understanding of time sink, but.... The actual time sink is playing eve. Logging in to the game is where you actually trade a portion of your finite lifespan for the right to pretend you're an immortal internet space hero. Being that training progresses regardless of your login status - at best it's something that plays in the background. One of the selling points of eve is that training happens in the background and isn't something you have to grind. You truly log in for enjoyment only. To prove my point. You never have to sit by idle until a skill completes. If you're logged in - your options are infinite. I don't want to mess with your time space continuum, but infinite possibilities aren't all inclusive. You can have infinite possibilities even though you can't fly a titan because you skill queue hasn't completed yet. The standard example of this is that our universe (not New Eden, the real one) is infinite, but isn't the only one. Anyway, skill training is mislabeled and misunderstood as a time sink. It does make you wait for certain things, but it doesn't prevent your from doing an infinite number of things. Waiting in the doctor's office is a time sink. It takes time and you have to do it. Reading about eve ship fitting while waiting in the doctor's office isn't. (the wait is, but the activity of reading about ship fitting during that time isn't). Hope this helps.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1787	Posted - 2016.01.29 17:14:56 - [14] - Quote Gadget Helmsdottir wrote: Rather agree-ish with the OP. Though, I think this skill needs something added, not taken away. As is, you get no benefit from training the skill from 1-4, because you can't even pilot a cap without having this at 5. Perhaps if the skill unlocked something along the way... Or perhaps better, if certain non-cap ships could take advantage of the skill as a ship bonus or something. The big thing that gets me, is that there is no real choice to make. Either you have the skill trained to V, or you might as well as not have the skill injected at all. Yes, 25% agility is nothing to scoff at. But y'know neither is 20%. However a player won't get 20%. She MUST jump straight to 25%. "Choices" that are not choices is bad game design. I know that this skill wasn't designed this way from the beginning, but that it morphed to its current state over time; however, I think it's well past time to overhaul this skill. Keep it around, sure, but give the players some real choices to make when training this skill other than the binary 'capital use: on/off'. Old thread: http://eve-search.com/thread/228292-1/page/1 --Gadget 'Choices that are not choices are bad game design.' You have the option to not train it - always. Being the benefits only kick in at the full 25% is somehow egregious to you, but (I've read the whole eve developer handbook twice) no where is there any requirement or guarantee that the incremental completion of skill levels 1-4 will give you incremental benefits. That's something you have made up. I understand where it might be a reasonable assumption on your part to somehow expect that, but it's still an assumption. The first four levels being a waste is an illusion you have created and choose to believe in. They aren't a waste, they are necessary to get to level 5. You're just whining about some incremental character buffs you feel you are somehow entitled to get. The problem with this whole post is that it has everything to do with imagined entitlement and nothing to do with the skill attainment process. Bears poop in the woods. This skill does nothing for you until you complete level 5. Move on.
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 317	Posted - 2016.01.29 17:21:08 - [15] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class. It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus". Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one.
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1129	Posted - 2016.01.29 17:28:44 - [16] - Quote Masao Kurata wrote: Morrigan LeSante wrote: I think people's main complaint around this one is that levels 1-3 are literally timesinks. You can't fly the ships they affect at that skill level. Even IV only affects a single ships class. It's not like you unlock the capitals at I and II>V is a "bonus". Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one. Eve money said JFs. However it may be the hulls themselves need V and it is just one of those weird ones.
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 317	Posted - 2016.01.29 17:30:56 - [17] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Masao Kurata wrote: Wait, what? There's no ship you can get into with ASC IV, you need ASC V for every single one. Eve money said JFs. However it may be the hulls themselves need V and it is just one of those weird ones. It is. You need {Racial} Freighter to use any JF, which requires ASC V.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2937	Posted - 2016.01.29 18:56:42 - [18] - Quote Does anyone happen to have the reference link to this upcoming change and surrounding information? Though I agree ASC is a weird one that needs V as a timesink for everything.
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 10487	Posted - 2016.01.29 20:50:48 - [19] - Quote WTF do you think will happen if it's removed? Do you honestly think we can pilot advanced spaceships with mere Basic Spaceship Command skills? Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m! Bumble's Space Log
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 115	Posted - 2016.01.29 22:29:41 - [20] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: 'Choices that are not choices are bad game design.' You have the option to not train it - always. Being the benefits only kick in at the full 25% is somehow egregious to you, but (I've read the whole eve developer handbook twice) no where is there any requirement or guarantee that the incremental completion of skill levels 1-4 will give you incremental benefits. That's something you have made up. I understand where it might be a reasonable assumption on your part to somehow expect that, but it's still an assumption. The first four levels being a waste is an illusion you have created and choose to believe in. They aren't a waste, they are necessary to get to level 5. You're just whining about some incremental character buffs you feel you are somehow entitled to get. The problem with this whole post is that it has everything to do with imagined entitlement and nothing to do with the skill attainment process. Bears poop in the woods. This skill does nothing for you until you complete level 5. Move on. Dearest Seems Lost, Quote: "...an illusion you have created and choose to believe in." "You're just whining..." "...you feel you are somehow entitled to get." "... imagined entitlement ..." The first Caucus is on Monday... and is in Iowa. Please, save your political and personal attacks for the campaign trail. Still with me? Good. Serendipity Lost, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the idea that my post was some sort of wonky liberal-whiskey-high. I'll do some more checking in a bit, but I can't think of another skill that is set up in the way this one is currently. I'll also say, again, that I'm fully aware that this skill wasn't created this way from inception. It was changed during the ship tiericide. This was likely a stop-gap measure, or the end result was perhaps overlooked when the needed changes were made to the ships themselves. Nevertheless, the skill is now outside the path set by all other skills, including it's former version. As is, the skill is confusing and anachronistic, and while I DO NOT advocate its removal, I do think that it needs to be brought in line with other skills. Any other skill still grants a pilot some tangible use should she decide not max out the skill. Only this one doesn't. It doesn't fit -- in a bad way. Perhaps with the incoming Capital changes this skill could be re-examined. Having said all that... No it's not the end of the world if this skill never gets changed, but the way it's currently set up goes against what has been presented from skills so far. Yes, this is my opinion, but it's an honest one gleaned from observation. Still, I would ask that this skill be shored up, or at least made note of...and more attention paid to skill creation and changes to avoid this situation in the future. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Xe'Cara'eos A Big Enough Lever 400	Posted - 2016.01.30 11:28:22 - [21] - Quote my 0.02 ISK use levels I-IV as pre-req's for either T2 ships, saaaay: I is T2 frigs and desties II is T2 cruiser and BC III is T2 BS IV is T3's (both the T3d's and the T3c's) V is already useful (freighters) because atm, since it only applies to ships 'that require this skill to fly' you can't use it until you've trained freighters or cap ships, which means you need to train it to V For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Heiluri Unpublished Chapter Suddenly Content 1	Posted - 2016.01.30 11:55:15 - [22] - Quote Xe'Cara'eos wrote: my 0.02 ISK use levels I-IV as pre-req's for either T2 ships, saaaay: I is T2 frigs and desties II is T2 cruiser and BC III is T2 BS IV is T3's (both the T3d's and the T3c's) V is already useful (freighters) because atm, since it only applies to ships 'that require this skill to fly' you can't use it until you've trained freighters or cap ships, which means you need to train it to V Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them)
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 318	Posted - 2016.01.30 14:55:16 - [23] - Quote Heiluri wrote: Do we really want to give all those ships 25% agility bonus though?(Which they would get since that skill would be required to fly them) I think you mean "do we really want to give all those ships a 20% penalty to their base agility?" (The answer imo is hell no.)
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1136	Posted - 2016.01.30 16:04:42 - [24] - Quote Ooor we could accept that certain stupid powerful hulls are behind an SP wall for a reason.
Masao Kurata Perkone Caldari State 318	Posted - 2016.01.30 17:43:36 - [25] - Quote If they're stupid powerful they need to be nerfed, SP walls don't solve things.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1492	Posted - 2016.01.30 18:41:08 - [26] - Quote Question why is the intended time sink an issue? Citadel worm hole tax
Morrigan LeSante Senex Legio The OSS 1136	Posted - 2016.01.30 18:45:18 - [27] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Question why is the intended time sink an issue? Because I want it NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO.WWWWW Just look at the bitching about command ships.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1492	Posted - 2016.01.30 18:54:26 - [28] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Question why is the intended time sink an issue? Because I want it NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAO.WWWWW Just look at the bitching about command ships. I'm waiting for graviton physics to come under fire for dics and hics Citadel worm hole tax
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2942	Posted - 2016.01.30 19:19:52 - [29] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: I'm waiting for graviton physics to come under fire for dics and hics You only need it to 1 for DIC's last I looked at things, and only need it to 4 for HIC's as the 'advanced' version. So Graviton Physics follows the 'V is specialisation but not required for basic use' system just fine. The issue here is not the time sink in general, but the fact that a skill is being forced to V to get any use at all from it, meaning that there is no specialisation possible, because the basic entry level for the skill is V. Obviously if the requirements were changed for say..... Freighters (Remind me how they are are 'powerful' and not 'floating target practice for everyone' please), then some additional skills would need to replace them as a time sink to keep gates similar, but it would then mean that not every single cap ship needs ASC V. This change would also not 'reduce agility' of any ship, unless you then chose to not bother training ASC to V, which is the point as it then makes it a player choice to bother or not bother.
Cristl 293	Posted - 2016.01.30 20:12:59 - [30] - Quote Well, ASC is in its current state a relic of the grand rebalance of 2013 - it was made like this to keep the time for newbies to train into into caps as close as possible to the original time after all the other prereqs were shifted about. I'd say the option are: 1) Shrug your shoulders: it's almost the same for everyone, excluding some haulers with it at 1 (vet privilege) 2) Wait for the capital rebalance, and do some extra stuff with ASC at the same time to give players options over how far to train it, while not shortening the train to caps unnecessarily. Possibly: a) Make it a rank 20 skill b) Keep all currently trained SP the same and readjust the levels accordingly. So with L5 (rank5) currently in ASC, you would be adjusted to be at L4 (rank20) and have 375 k SP towards L5 (about 7.3%) c) All caps now require level 1 only d) With such a high ranked skill, it could be given effects to more than just agility. Maybe it gives 2% bonuses to capacitor, shield and armour base hp too (for example), and then: e) When the new versions of all the cap ships are released they have their base stats designed and balanced around the assumption people will train ACS to level IV. f) Now any cap pilot can choose from levels 1-3 economy class (L3 is about 2days, 16h days), business class (L4 is about 15 days) and to get the most out your capital at L5 it's an 85 day train for first class travelers.

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