| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 02:25:00 -
[1]
"iirc last july it was a GM, this time its a dev."
It's not "this time" as the supposed 'evidence' is dated back to july 2oo6. Then again, the whole thing is based on alleged copy of private communication that mentions a player was petitioned by some unspecified alt and accused of being a dev who tampered with BPO lottery. If there was indeed a dev who was forced to leave due to such practices, then there's nothing to investigate because investigation already happened and the dev was supposedly forced to leave as the result of it.
But let's not get fact in the way of good forum drama :s
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 02:35:00 -
[2]
"It's certainly a better explanation than he's spending hours meticulously crafting anti-bob propaganda."
People pay him isk to hear what he's meticulously crafting; that's quite a good reason to produce whatever he wants, especially since with his background they're buying it without second though.
"he's a hacker with established track record of screwing people left right and centre, would such guy ever lie to us? impossible"
impossible, indeed :s
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:18:00 -
[3]
"You should not have devs playing this game on the live server. Period, end of story."
Yes, we really want the game to be developed by people who have zero clue how it's being played where it really matters. I.e. on live server and *especially* in 0.0 space on alliance scale.
One trainwreck of SWG wasn't enough for you people, you want another..? --;;
"If devs want to play, they should play on the test server where what they can or can't do doesn't really matter."
When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game...
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:29:00 -
[4]
"The problem isn't what they can do in an ingame sense j0sephine, it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game."
This is a FUD. please tell me what specifically do you think they are privy to that's not published on the development pages, dev blogs, interviews, forum posts and test server months in advance before it hits the TQ... that has such gross impact on the shape of the game? Just one concrete example of unnanounced earth-shattering change of game mechanics that turned game world upside down without anyone being aware until it happened will do ^^
Keep in mind it's hardly a secret there's plenty of players who actually have better knowledge of this game than the devs themselves, as evidenced on quite regular basis both on the forums and whenever there's meetings organized between the devs and the players. Devs are people, too, they don't get EVE Uberness lvl.5 implanted in their skulls when they are hired by CCP -.o
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:38:00 -
[5]
"Incorrect. A Developer will know specific information about the game, about bugs and about upcoming content."
As will anyone who actually play this game, reads this site and bothers to visit the test server. Want to know some of the upcoming content? The NPC rats will be reduced in numbers and increased in strength. The outpost will get upgradeable parts that can be disabled by enemy. It will be possible to lock down constellations if you have sovereignty of them. There will be new system added to ships that allows you to overcharge the modules at the risk of damaging them.
****, i must be dev to be privy to this info. Busted.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 13:50:00 -
[6]
"It's not my job to change your mind about things that could present a conflict of interest in certain circumstances. I'm not saying that anything happened. Wait and see before you speculate one way or another."
While you tell me to wait and see, you are openly speculating about devs' possible and theoretical abuse of power that they 'clearly must be doing so we should keep them away from the game for the sake of it' ... here and now. Sorry, but if you* are going to speculate about the big bad devs screwing everyone for a few virtual trinkets, am going to point out just how petty, narrowminded and childish it is. If you want me to stop, sit quiet and wait yourself rather than try to get the mob all fired up and screaming for blood.
*) generic 'you'
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:18:00 -
[7]
Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 14:16:09
"Show me where I speculated anything you silly person."
"The problem (..) it's what they are privy to and how they could use this to shape events within the game."
Isn't theoretical musing on what one could do with --equally theoretical-- power they hold exactly that, a speculation..?
(speculate: to think or wonder about the subject)
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:42:00 -
[8]
"That was an answer to your musing about what a dev could possibly do outside of having super dev powers in game. It's not speculation."
Wait, let's get through it step by step
* in response to someone claiming devs could abuse their powers i state devs have characters like regular players on TQ
* you respond with 'but they have knowledge that could be used to shape events in game'
i did not 'muse what a dev could do'. I did not ask what they could do (until you started theoretical speculations, then i asked for specific example to back that musing up) In short, this was your own statement... and if it's not speculation, then how will you call the mental process that spawned in your brain the thought "but a dev could use their knowledge to shape the game" that had no apparent back up in actual game events... which you then decided to post as the reply? o.O;
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 14:51:00 -
[9]
"Suddenly when Bob forums start getting posted... ISD put up a new rule and suddenly 3rd party links are banned. So... one rule for some and one rule for another eh?"
"Posting external links, chatlogs and information is permitted on the Corporation, Alliance & Organisation forums"
I don't think that rule means what you think it means.
(what gets removed is the stuff that breaks the general forum rules. Like speculations about dev in-game identitites, discussing moderation, etc)
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:29:00 -
[10]
"You said "When devs play on TQ their game characters have no powers different from these of regular players, since these are configured manually on per-character basis. So i don't see what specifically they can do as opposed to another player that fills you with such fear you want to ban them all from the game..."
This is a question."
Err, no; this is a statement. Questions end with question mark, like this:
"So what could they do, as opposed to another player?"
but this is admittedly mostly semantics and besides the point. The actual point of it was, your reply supplied a speculation what a dev could possibly do. I'll accept that you were just relying the product of other people's paranoia rather than originating it yourself, but it was act of spreading the speculation just the same. I seeked to clarify if there's some actual, practical grounding for that speculation and you responded with "let's not speculate". And that's fine with me, let's not. But that to me includes also not repeating other people's speculations as answers to unasked questions, because for uninformed reader this is no different from act of speculation itself. And given how these forums operate, such speculations (no matter if repeated or originated) turn into 'solid facts' two pages down the thread.
with that out of the way yes, perhaps best to drop it by all means ^^;;
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 15:49:00 -
[11]
"Curious question, but since when is the Guiding Hand Social Club a member of the BoB bloc?"
* your employment history shows you to be at some point member of Jericho Fraction
* i was also at some point member of Jericho Fraction
* i'm now in BoB corp
* BoB is well known to be hive of scumm and dev-altery
it's henceforth proven without a doubt NTR, by rock-solid chain of logical reasoning you've been outed as nothing but nefarious dev alt ruining the game experience for everyone out there.
(used to be six degrees of Joshua Calvert, guess this one will be the new flavour :s
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:03:00 -
[12]
"Insider intel - more than enough, to give benefits to your alliance to win. Call to your friend in real life : "Hey, you know. I had a smoke with DevX. He is going to make basic miner laser uber weapon. All BPOs will disappear from market, and basic miner laser will become tachyon tech V""
When was last time this kind of change happened, vs introduction of entirely new modules? Or when was a ship module changed to significant degree without landing on the test server first for people to check it out and ***** about changes in the 'ships and modules'?
Seriously, as far as stupid theoretical examples of what "could" happen go, this one probably takes the cake. Yes, devs are utter morons who turn basic modules into uber weapons without notifying player base they are actually going to introduce new mechanics, and without allowing them to test these first.
Please --;;
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.01.31 16:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 16:22:32
"I think transform t1 cargohold bpos into tech 2 version. Check General Discussion. It was pre-Kali i think (less than 2 months ago)."
The only thing i can find on the subject (and that's included in patch notes) is the seeding of tech.1 cargohold BPOs (which have been missing forever and then some) Is this what you meant..?
edit: wait, found it. http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=429803
"I'd say the DC Bpo and shield boost amp BPO might be something along those lines"
Changes to damage controls were tried and tested (and broken) on test server for long time, everyone who bothered to keep up with the game knew they're coming. I don't remember anything outrageous about shield boost amplifier BPOs at this point, weren't they originally introduced as agent rewards? o.O;
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 16:45:00 -
[14]
"Ah... Now it becomes clear. To win eve you must play SISI..."
If you want to see what changes are about to be put in the game with your own eyes, you can indeed do it by checking out test server where they are deployed in advance. This is why this server *is* out there to begin with.
It's not secret knowledge by any means, so can't see why it "becomes clear" now...
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 16:56:00 -
[15]
"You can say that you were hacked, that crimes were committed, and that Mr. Z________ is a ****... or you can argue that what he's saying is a smear campaign, a lie, and a witch hunt. You can't argue both, as you and your boys are doing, as they're mutually exclusive. Pick one."
It's hardly uncommon to provide some bits of truth to make the big lie one is trying to sell more believeable. So no, i don't think there's a need to 'pick one' unless we want to be very naive about possibilities of the whole deal.
For the record i have no idea nor way to tell if the information he posted is true. But the fact he did have access to some info doesn't automatically make it a proof in my eyes that what he's posting actually *is* that info and nothing but it. Especially when at the same time he's using it as blackmail attempt to get a free mothership and get person he dislikes kicked from a corp.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 18:31:00 -
[16]
"Are the rules of conduct for developers or other CCP staff available to read somewhere?"
Nothing easily accessible that i can think of... there might've been something mentioned in the forum mods recruitment threads and such but not sure. Rules of conduct are likely part of internal policies/NDA signed by the employees rather than public knowledge.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 19:16:00 -
[17]
"As for Devs requiring access to the game in order to pursue improvement, isn't that what Singularity is for? Do we not have Bughunters and quality feedback? Do they really need to hold positions of importance within the game to help improve it?"
There's many things on TQ that are not present on SiSi -- people running from fights rather than staying (meaning entirely different ship setups) ctrl-q, login traps, blobs, gatecamps, low sec pirates roaming in motherships, dock/undock games, and all sorts to different ****. Then there's mass-scale fights, people grinding through both NPCs and mining resourses, heavy stress on the contract system, extensive nets of actively maintained, attacked and defended POSes etc...
in short, if you lock the devs up to SiSi and make them only rely on second hand hearsay and their dev powers so they can spawn themselves test cases and such... you're likely to render them oblivious to large part of what this game is like and what people routinely complain about. And lack of experience makes it quite harder to address actual gameplay issues in reasonable manner :|
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 19:36:00 -
[18]
"Real world example: A Dev or GM can, entirely innocently, report on TS exactly when a node drops during a fleet battle, allowing the members of their own Alliance a 10-30 second headstart in logging back in at the front of the queue for when the node comes back up.
Try investigating that."
You are making a very specific claim about Devs and/or GMs posessing certain abilities, here. The only way for you to *know* as fact they do posess such ability is either you are dev/GM yourself with access to such tools, or you were told this by one (and so were granted the very same thing you complain about, exclusive knowledge about game mechanics)
Alternatively, you could be completely making things up based on nothing but ignorance and/or fear of the unknown, and trying to pass them as facts to scare people who, not being devs, wouldn't know any better.
So which is it? o.(
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 20:30:00 -
[19]
"There are plenty of MMORPG's out there with much larger player bases than EvE where developers are barred from playing on live servers."
Which games are these? (i don't keep eye on the policies regarding that issue so it's genuine question) Since you say plenty, i figure naming 3-5 will suffice... just so we can hopefully get vague idea if barring the devs from live servers have some noticeable impact on quality of the game one way or the other.
"I am not saying there is NO value to having a dev playing, I am just saying that a dev being part of 0.0 alliance brings up a LOT of conflict of interest issues, to the point where the advantages of a dev playing are outweighed by the disadvantages."
Certainly, am not going to deny there's potential for conflict here. But then i think we'll simply differ in the estimation of the disadvantages here -- because from what i can see, the disadvantages are mainly theoretical conjectures blown entirely out of proportion. This is absolutely normal, people don't know what they can expect so they presume the worst... but then at the same time i refuse this fear to dictate my reaction to the whole issue.
If/when there's actual cases of abuse that can be tracked down and proven, then by all means, have CCP take care of it and deal with them (that's what the petition system is for amongst other things) But until it's proven and shown without doubt that devs are influencing the game and have negative effect on it, to demand them banned from experiencing their own game is imo kneejerk reaction based on "what if"
"Devs want to play? Fine, then it is their responsibility to explain how they are doing that without unfairly taking advantage of game mechanics. But the situation as it exists now (devs playing + total secrecy) is a recipe for trouble."
How does one prove they are not a reindeer, and/or they are not beating their wife?
You are asking for impossible, here. Do you expect them to fill daily reports of in-game activities? "logged in, warped to belt. Killed a spawn. crashed. Relogged. Found myself in the pod. Went to station, got another ship" ... this kind of things? It's like asking anyone to prove they are living a honest life. You cannot prove such a thing in any reasonable manner, especially over the 'net.
It's not devs responsibility to prove they are honest. It's your responsibility to prove your case when you think they're not.
"Ultimately this issue will be decided by folks pocketbooks. If I feel that I can't accomplish anything in this game because if I do some Dev-corp is going to run right over them using informaiton they are not privy to they WILL leave."
Yes, although i fear the whole situation is a case of catch-22. People aren't basing their decision on what the devs do or not do, they are basing them on their own opinion regarding these doings. Because when you think of it, the only thing that can make one accept the devs' word that "there's no developers playing on the live server honest" ... is the faith in the word of the developer in the first place. If this faith is not present people who aren't believing the devs' words will simply conclude "well, that's just more lies" ... and leave anyway.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 20:57:00 -
[20]
"The idea that a single group of people can get such incredibly one-sided preferencial treatment doesn't bode well with me, especially considering how much time and effort I've put in over the last three years."
You are presuming #1 that there was actual preferential treatment here and #2 that it was exclusive to the point of making it one-sided.
But there's no evidence to really support either of these presumptions, so... well, just worth considering that aspect, i guess o.O
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 21:21:00 -
[21]
"WoW, EQ, DAOC
Say what you like about those games but they are among the most successful MMORPG's around."
I was under impression WoW staff can play on live servers -- i recall some of their 'community representatives', the community manager and (can be mistaken here) 1-2 devs mention their live server experiences at one point or another. Besides, how exactly would the company check if they don't have account used to play the game on live server?
The EQ, i think it was mentioned in this thread at least the GMs were allowed to have regular characters in the game, if just on different shards. DAOC i have no idea, so won't comment.
"but it seems to me that you are a member of an alliance who has directly benifitted from Dev inovolement."
Then perhaps am in better position to speak about the whole ordeal than someone who has no first-hand knowledge regarding it? ^^ or in other words, being in the alliance in question i may have slightly better idea how much of the hearsay is just that.
Then again i could of course be lying through my teeth.
"I'm not asking for proof, I am asking for transparency."
And i repeat, what exactly sort of transparency will be deemed sufficient, for people to believe that things are kept 100% fair? "Transparency" is a catch-all, but give me some specifics what --at least you personally-- would consider as 'good enough' assurance that devs are not providing people with favours that goes beyond what they can do as regular player.
"I am not asking them to prove anything,"
You are demanding 'transparency so we know they are not cheating'. It's a nice way to word it but again, it's not very different from me demanding "transparency" from you so i can determine you are not beating your wife. Not that am accusing you of anything or asking for a proof, am i? -.o
"What is good enough proof for you? A confession?"
A hard evidence recorded in the server logs. In this particular case --given the accusations-- it would be either logs of the dev character spawning extra BPO's and passing them to their character (easy to track since tech.2 BPOs are supposed to be out there in limited amounts) ... or traces of tampering with the code that resulted in obtaining the BPOs (also easy to verify)
It's not a complicated case when you get to the bottom of it, there's just lot of rabblerabblerabble around it obfuscating it and blowing into what it could've been.
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 21:46:00 -
[22]
"As for the hacker, the reaction from BoB is enough proof its true."
hacker: "BoB are cheaters and dev alts"
BoB: "zOMG, lies"
random audience: "they are denying it, it's enough proof it is true!"
isn't it what it boils down to? ^^
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.01.31 22:12:00 -
[23]
"Spawning T2 BPOs is a blind accusation invented in this thread."
Precisely, which is why i'd like to see it addressed. Going any further beyond that we're back to the "how does one prove they've been living a honest life" problem.
"If we want to play the "ill-gotten gains" game, you could just as well get isk from conveniently announced Serpentis events, then buy the BPOs on the open market. But that's pure speculation."
The event staff has strict limits on the rewards level they are allowed to supply the players with. Nowhere near cost of a BPO, let alone multiple 'prints. So that's hopefully one speculation that can be put to rest.
"I repeat myself, but I'm not faulting BoB for using shared accounts and ebaying, every major alliance does this, but I'm definately faulting a dev for being actively involved with it."
This is pretty much my issue with the whole thing. At the bottom of it we have a guy who is posting things that cannot be really proven one way or the other -- they may be true, they may be false, they may be combination of truth and lies and things taken out of context... i don't have access to verify it one way or the other. Still, he's doing it to both get paid ISK and as part of blackmail attempt for in-game gains so that's hardly case of unbiased and uninvolved reporter. But some people grab this **** and indiscriminately smear CCP with it anyway because well, there's BoB involved and everyone knows BoB cheats and haxxors and lies... so clearly, it must be all true, right?
mind boggles, tbh :|
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j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.02.01 00:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: j0sephine on 31/01/2007 23:58:56
"They aren't idiots, inferrences can be made, models can be constructed, test rigs can be built."
If we accept they are not idiots, why are so many people trying to tell them how they should be doing their work, and what things they have and don't have to do... as if they were?
They are software engineers, perhaps they have actually determined the current way to be most efficient and beneficial for the task at hand... arguing with them one way or the other is possible, but it's done from standpoint that's missing their particular perspective on things.
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