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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
60
   |
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well, Crucible has been out for a bit now, and I imagine all the people anxious to try the hybrid changes have tried them.
I am neutral on the subject, but what is the overall opinion?
Did CCP get it right, or go too far, or not far enough?
Guessing at the lack of threads about it, I assume CCP got it right and few are complaining of the changes being under or over powered.
Or is there some feedback thread I can't find that people are screaming in? |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:22:00 -
[2] - Quote
Railguns still don't have a "special sauce" that makes them particularly interesting to use. They're bland. Caldari ranged boats (except the Naga) are all poor on the field, particularly the Eagle and Ferox.
Blasters still have troubles with getting into range and dealing enough damage, mostly due to the armor rig and agility problems, I think. Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Even EMP is better in a lot of cases.
It's an improvement, but it still isn't there. |
Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Moar Tears
83
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite.
Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting.
I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |
Xtover
Macabre Votum
Against ALL Authorities
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
rails need a *hint* more damage.
blasters could use slightly more range,
The main problem is in the ships right now.
|
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kahz Niverrah wrote:Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting.
Confirming your confirmation. I love my Zealot. |
Alara IonStorm
623
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kahz Niverrah wrote:Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting.
They are not great but some of them manage.
The Omen is Ok for it as well as the Nano Harbinger. Slicers Kite very well as do Shield Curses and to some degree the Sader.
But if I were to guess Sakoda meant Scorch as a statement of it's fleet uses and then mentioned Barrage specifically in it's connection to kiting.
TBH Scorch is Amarr. Without Scorch there ships would drop off the map like nothing else. Relegated to slower, weaker, cap heavier versions of Gallente ships with Beams living in the shadow of Artillery. It is literally there 1 trick pony =/ |
Sader Rykane
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
150
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Kahz Niverrah wrote:Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting. Confirming your confirmation. I love my Zealot.
[Legion, PvP Legion]
Corpum C-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Thermic Membrane
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Medium Energy Collision Accelerator I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
My attempt at being minmatar. |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto.
Veto Corp
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yeah I realize that Amarr ships are slower than shield-tanked kiters. But some manage, like Alara said. The added flexibility in the T2 ammo is what I was getting at. None of the T2 hybrid ammo is a one trick pony like Barrage or Scorch. |
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
34
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 18:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Well, Crucible has been out for a bit now, and I imagine all the people anxious to try the hybrid changes have tried them.
I am neutral on the subject, but what is the overall opinion?
Did CCP get it right, or go too far, or not far enough?
Guessing at the lack of threads about it, I assume CCP got it right and few are complaining of the changes being under or over powered.
Or is there some feedback thread I can't find that people are screaming in?
After the patch I've found a lot more interesting fits for my gallente ships.
Reduced PG needs on Hybrids allow way better customisation and versatility.
As for the weapons themselves, rails were not bad even before the patch and now they are just better.
Blasers on the other hand depend on ship you choose. I didn't have much time to test all of it, but Blaster Mega that I flew for like 3 hrs was very powerful.
Each time you get on the Blaster range your target pops up very and very fast.
After all of that I even considered to use Hybrids on a Myrm.
Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals!
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html
http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html |
Ager Agemo
I N E X T R E M I S
Fidelas Constans
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
I personally find the railguns are lacking on the damage dept, minmatar keep doing more damage with the 1400mm arty and faction ammo at longer range, than railguns with T2 ammo at short range. this can be noticed specially if you place a rokh vs a maelstrom.
the rokh top damage without drones is about 600 and FIXED to kinetic only and some leftover thermal not worth mentioning.
while the maelstrom gets to 700 dps and can do EMP, EXP, THERMAL, half kinetic at DOUBLE range, and a mix of damages, and in the long range ammo, the mael will hit you at 200km just from falloff alone, while spike railgun will do some ridiculous low damage.
Blasters, they need more much more DPS if they are intended to be face melters.
if minmatar got damage types, railguns and Lazors should get the specialized HIGH damage. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
3194
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
There is still little reason in using blasters over other weaponry. The changes to them did not address the problems they have.
It was rather like sticking a band aid over a festering wound.
CCP Zulu.....
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Baden Luskan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:I personally find the railguns are lacking on the damage dept, minmatar keep doing more damage with the 1400mm arty and faction ammo at longer range, than railguns with T2 ammo at short range. this can be noticed specially if you place a rokh vs a maelstrom.
the rokh top damage without drones is about 600 and FIXED to kinetic only and some leftover thermal not worth mentioning.
while the maelstrom gets to 700 dps and can do EMP, EXP, THERMAL, half kinetic at DOUBLE range, and a mix of damages, and in the long range ammo, the mael will hit you at 200km just from falloff alone, while spike railgun will do some ridiculous low damage.
Blasters, they need more much more DPS if they are intended to be face melters.
if minmatar got damage types, railguns and Lazors should get the specialized HIGH damage.
Ive found that railguns do comperable dps to artilery, but its way the damage is applied leaves railguns severly lacking for PvP. The Artilery, as everyone knows, has a HUGE volley damage, but a very slow rate of fire to compensate for DPS. Railguns get their dps from a very high rate of fire and a low amount of volley damage. This is fine, but the rate of fire is not high enough to make railgun volley damage viable in PvP due to logistic ships being able to lock a traget and repair it within 5 seconds.
Simple fix though...increase the rate of fire ofr rail guns and lower their volley damage ot keep their DPS still in line with other turret platforms. Possibally even a 3 volley burst, with 1 second inbetween every shot followed by a 3 or 4 second wait until your next 3 volley burst. That might make railguns more viable in PvP. |
Smoking Blunts
Zebra Corp
BricK sQuAD.
153
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 19:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
remove the tracking pen from t2 blaster ammo and add a bit more dps. they dont do enough damage upclose to over come the getting into range issue.
fitting is much easier now though
CCP-áare full of words and no action. We will watch what they are doing, for now
|
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pro's:
Fitting is easier
Suicide ganking is easier (coupled with Destroyer buff... omg.)
Reload Time is as should be.
Cons:
Main drawback of Hybrid failure not addressed: Blaster boats (in the current form of REAL close range) are not the fastest ships in the game.
To Correct (several options):
Make Gallente faster than Minmatar, but give Minmatar the agility edge.
Rework Autocannons to be what blasters are and blasters what autocannons are.
Rework Autocannons to have very far range with almost no falloff with a buff to gallente optimal and significant falloff.
As an example (all Level 5's): Heavy Neutrons with optimal of 6km, falloff of approx 8km, 425 Autocannons with optimal of 11km and 0.5km falloff. This way, the minmatar would have to maintain a specific range, within overclocked web/scram range if they veer too close, but both can hit each other.
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
We have a blog, it is terrible.
How to fix Bounty Hunting |
Michus Danether
Immortalis Silens
Intrepid Crossing
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:31:00 -
[15] - Quote
I think we need to give it far more time for people to determine the efficacy of the new hybrids. We need to let people experiment with fittings, tactics, fleet and gang load-outs and otherwise give hybrids a chance.
Personally I have fit some very impressive and powerful rail fits and some fail fits as well, it seems that while small and large hybrid weapons have found their sweet spot, the medium hybrids didn't get as much love.
We need to give it a few months to see what develops. I think we can all agree however that hybrids are better now than they were before, we just need to determine if they are either not better enough or too much better. |
Hershman
G-Weezy
108
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree, give it a little more time to sink in. Personally haven't been much of a Hybrid user. Mostly missiles and autocannons. But I have noticed a big difference in the Blasters. If you're in an active tank Battleship and those suckas get too close, make no mistake, your **** will melt. |
Hershman
G-Weezy
108
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 20:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
. |
Alara IonStorm
624
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 21:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
So make armor ships even easier to catch on gates by changing speed to agility and screwing shield ships on speed instead of armor. Neither sounds, whats the word...
Fun.
I say just remove Rig Penalties all together.
|
Opertone
Signal 7
The Jagged Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 21:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ager Agemo wrote:I personally find the railguns are lacking on the damage dept, minmatar keep doing more damage with the 1400mm arty and faction ammo at longer range, than railguns with T2 ammo at short range. this can be noticed specially if you place a rokh vs a maelstrom.
the rokh top damage without drones is about 600 and FIXED to kinetic only and some leftover thermal not worth mentioning.
while the maelstrom gets to 700 dps and can do EMP, EXP, THERMAL, half kinetic at DOUBLE range, and a mix of damages, and in the long range ammo, the mael will hit you at 200km just from falloff alone, while spike railgun will do some ridiculous low damage.
Blasters, they need more much more DPS if they are intended to be face melters.
if minmatar got damage types, railguns and Lazors should get the specialized HIGH damage.
Get back to fixing it, CCP. |
Opertone
Signal 7
The Jagged Alliance
53
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 21:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
So make armor ships even easier to catch on gates by changing speed to agility and screwing shield ships on speed instead of armor. Neither sounds, whats the word... Fun. I say just remove Rig Penalties all together.
allow gallente ships to have high MWD velocity, hi straight line charge, disallow gallente maneuvering and orbiting - basically gallente are plated knights with spears and swords. Hard on charge, slow to turn around.
Minmatar are fast an low tank.
Ammar are cap deficient, but otherwise powerful in all aspects. Somewhat slow.
Caldari are falling out. Supposedly snipers, lightest armored ships, not designed for close combat. Caldari role is negligible, their DPS is absurd low. And weak long range fleet will always be charged by Gallente knights. |
Averyia
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 21:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maybe if Caldari ships got an agility boost (but maintain slow speed) and Gallente ships get a slight speed and agility boost then it would help.
Maybe extend the range of webs? Or give blasters more range.
Increase the RoF of rails a bit. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 21:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
So make armor ships even easier to catch on gates by changing speed to agility and screwing shield ships on speed instead of armor. Neither sounds, whats the word... Fun. I say just remove Rig Penalties all together.
I can definitely got on board with removing the penalties, but they were always intended to have a give-and-take relationships (except for the Engineering ones, for whatever reason...)
The idea about armor was mostly towards plates adding mass which screws speed AND agility, and should really only do 1, and when it comes to the blasters problem, its largely a factor of speed and closing range with a target. By only negatively affecting agility, Gallente armor boats can be like a charging bull you don't want to be in the way of.
With the Astro rigs, the choice shouldn't be "Armor or Shield+Speed+Agility" it should be "Armor, Shield, or Speed+Agility."
We have a blog, it is terrible.
How to fix Bounty Hunting |
Zyress
Deaths Head Brigade
Gryphon League
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 20:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
From what I have seen its still better to fit projectiles to a Hybrid boat |
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
43
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 22:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:remove the tracking pen from t2 blaster ammo and add a bit more dps. they dont do enough damage upclose to over come the getting into range issue.
fitting is much easier now though
I thought I posted this like a month before crucible release, and Ive been saying it for years. Time to say it again. I also gave you a thumbs up for saying it.
IVe not been able to log in for weeks, but from what it sounds like, Devs gave buffs to where people wanted them, but they didnt actually fix the problems. |
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 00:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
The improvements are a step in the right direction but it's still not enough. Blaster DPS could be increased by another 15% or so.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
310
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 00:35:00 -
[26] - Quote
fitting and cap requirements are perfect now.
there are still soem range issues on blasters compared to their counterparts. blasters could use a 15% falloff bonus
really the main issue now is with gallente ship speed and acceleration.
The biggest problem comes from MWD and their mass addition. |
Dorian Tormak
P0ON
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 00:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
You can forget about getting rid of rig penalizations as a way to buff Gallente because every race besides Caldari use armor rigs. So if rig penalizations are gone, Minmatar benefit just as much as Gallente, thereby making the change not at all a Gallente buff but a seperate module fix and Gallente will get Scorched and Barraged just as often as they do now, which is not very often anyway TBH.
I'M JUST LOOKING FOR AN A55 TO MOUNT!
...."and I've been fighting back ever since...." |
Renan Ruivo
Hipernova
Vera Cruz Alliance
416
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 00:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Kahz Niverrah wrote:Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting. Confirming your confirmation. I love my Zealot.
Confirming the confirmation and your confirmation of the confirmation you confirmed.
Rated ARG for Pirates. **** you. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
327
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 01:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
So we have basically added a BS fleet comp based on the Rokh due to the changes. It won't replace our abbadons but it will give us an option in the department as the Rokhs are really sweet.
We do fleet combat, so in a fleet orientation, the alpha is fine at the numbers we'll be fielding with the focus fire, and the high range of optimals means that we'll be able to always be at optimal range from 10km to 140km, and shortly into falloff at that point we'll be warping ontop of you anyway. The 5 second reload is amazing, allowing for this constant range flow.
We use mallers to pick fights when all else fails, and we're currently looking at a Moa based version of it we think will perform in the same way, only doing the job better.
You see, long ago amar were trash(after they were good the first time) and CCP came in and made minor tweaks, changed 2 or 3 ships around, and suddenly they were pretty good. Time moves on and it turns out Projectiles sucked too. The little tweaks guy was obviously out for lunch and the drastic sweeping changes guy came in and 'fixed' them. They went from 'suck' to 'holy mother of god' over night. The rail gun guys wanted that dude to fix their chosen platform, instead they got the guy that fixed lasars, and rail guns, while not projectiles, are good. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
236
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 16:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
hybrids are garbage in pvp, and if you think otherwise, you dont pvp.
|
Jask Avan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 16:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
Projectiles are the problem. |
Leisen
Interrobang Inc.
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 16:44:00 -
[32] - Quote
I use hybrids in pvp because I'm stubborn, and missiles suck. Hybrids are a dream now compared to what they were pre-Crucible, but they're certainly not projectiles or lolzors.
And if you're complaining about Gallente, try pvping with a Caldari gunboat. Then tell me about slow, and fitting issues. I'd put my Ishkur against my Harpy, Thorax against my Moa, and my Mega against my Rokh any day. |
Alara IonStorm
631
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 17:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:hybrids are garbage in pvp, and if you think otherwise, you dont pvp.
They are good on certain hulls like the Mega, Talos, Naga, Brutix and most Frigs. Problem is they don't scale up when facing properly implemented gangs.
Hybrids are garbage in a lot of situations and a lot of Hybrid vessels are poorly implemented. In large scale PvP they are mostly garbage. I heard Pandemic tested out fleet Rokhs and they were not terrible but still don't measure to Hellcats and Alpha Maels.
There are however exceptions. Megathons are overly brutal in small scale situations targeting Battlecruisers and Hybrid Frigates are dangerous. Brutix is Ok now, probably the best Tier one Battlecruiser in the bunch.
The issue is that every that a few ships have the Battlefield sown up and they a very good job of it.
The Nanocane and Drake has almost entirely obsoleted the Cruiser and Battlecruiser class. Ships like the Thorax and Deimos, have a poorer mix of DPS, Tank and Range, less cap to run MWD and the Nanocane can keep pce with them with the always dangerous Duel Neuts. Any Cruiser Sniper / Fleet Ship pails compared to the DPS / Tank of the Drake which has the range needed. Useful Cruisers ether are Logi or EWAR. The only Combet exceptions is the Vega / Cyn, T3's and Sig tanking Zealot. Most combat Cruisers loose the Tank / DPS / Range game with Battlecruisers, but with the Nanocane most of the ones that are not kiters loose the speed game as well.
Now the Gallente and Hybrid Caldari Battlecruisers pale in comparison to the CaneaDrake Duo and with there lake of Kiting Cruisers and lack of Hybrid Battlecruiser Options leave them in a pickle. It is less noticable with Amarr due to the Abbadon, Armageddon and Zealot. The Mega, Domi and Hyperion do not scale up to fleet situations the way Scorch boats do and that cuts them out of the Fleet Battleship / Battlecruiser / HAC Game and leaves them little in the small gang territory of Kiters and DrakeaCanes. With the Megathron / Myrmidon / Frigates keeping life support in niche small gangs situations.
Finally Rails. Megapulse Scorch has the range / tracking / DPS that makes LR Weapons crumble. Arty has the Alpha and selectable dmg types. Heavy Missiles are the Caldari LR Weapon with ok Dmg with amazing range but it is the Drake / Tengu Hull that make them used. The Raven as a large Fleet Missile Platform does not have the tank / DPS (6 Launchers) to make it worth while over the Drake. If you can not break that cycle you will never see rails, cruises and beams in the main stream. That's right Beams, the hidden victim you never think about because of Scorch.
The game boils down to Arty/HM/AC Battlecruisers (Dynamic Duo + Nado Newcomer), Arty/Scorch Battleships and Kiters with EWAR / Logi.
Balance the Battlecruiser Class, give niches to Cruisers (T1 / Faction / T2) that Drake and Cane can not do better in every way that matters. Bring Fleet Battleships to the Gallente and Caldari that can use there LR Weapons without being laughed at by Arty / Scorch (Dynamic Duo 2).
Honestly I think the best Balance is to open up Combat Cruisers, Battleships, and Battlecruisers that are rarely used and make them capable of competing in the Mainstream. How to exactly go about that is a little above my head. |
Freezehunter
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 17:14:00 -
[34] - Quote
The big issue was never the weapons themselves to begin with, it's the Gallente ships, and their shittyness when it comes to speed and maneuvrability.
Armor tank + VERY low range guns + slow and hard to maneuver as **** + huge ******* sig and weight = The race I chose at character creation 6 years ago is now ****.
No wonder I cross-trained everything in the game eventually.
Right now, Minmatar >all, and then some.
Is it better to be a nice guy or an *******?
Tried being a nice guy, got shat on by all the assholes, became one.
Tried being an *******, now everyone hates me.
I am confused.
How do you make people like you, when all they can see is text? |
Mariner6
EVE University
Ivy League
38
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 17:39:00 -
[35] - Quote
I would say the change is a move in the right direction but still doesn't address the overall problem of Gallente ships. I think it hilarious that many Minmatar ships can easily be used with autocannons or arty, shield or armor and do well at both. Yet rails on Gallente are generally difficult to fit and make viable. Shields on Gallente ships don't work as well since the sig radius is much bigger on Gallente ships. Example, a shield fitted/rigged Hurricane is approx 300 sig radius. A Myrm around 366. Plus then the armour bonus is agains not used/wasted.
The second bonus on many/most Gallente ships still suck. The Thorax, Myrm, and Brutix are examples of this. Why fly a ship that often the second bonus is absolutely worthless for most PVP (ie the pointless armor rep bonus.) Sure in some niche uses it can be ok but overall sucks.
At the end of the day Gallente cannot control range. In the many fights I've experienced since the expansion came out the complete OP of the tier 3 BC's have made the kiting absolutely king. Even using interceptors to catch them is near impossible and they seem to have no problem killing them despite the large guns (even spiralling in). Trying to get a warp in has proved near impossible as they are moving so fast that by the time you land on them they are 40-50 km's away. Anti-sniping is only option. Again, blaster boats even more worthless now. Gallente ships now need like a 30-40 km scram range, then maybe they would be useful, other wise blaster boats are just too pidgeon holed in this game. No reason to fly these ships over the other and better options.
The Talos is an absolute failure. Its the pinnacle of Gallente blaster boat example of poor design mix. A blaster boat with zero tank? Really? In ability to apply DPS except at zero? But its dead by then. EFT warriors look at the number and say "wow" lots of DPS. Worthless when it can't be applied. Tornado and Oracle are king. And since for long range Alpha is king, rails are weak.
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 17:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
This is good. This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for when I opened the thread.
Well thought out posts, with details.
As I said, I am neutral on the changes, but it seems like people are leaning towards the "not enough" camp. |
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 20:47:00 -
[37] - Quote
the changes are ok because game balance needs to be shaken up from time to time.
basically making viable fits has become easier and the same goes for formats
if anything needs to be tweaked a bit further, maybe medium rails and the bounsed platforms for them (14", moa, eagle).
The Order of the Falcon or Hin +¡slenska f+ílkaor+¦a is a national Order of Iceland |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
236
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 21:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Hungry Eyes wrote:hybrids are garbage in pvp, and if you think otherwise, you dont pvp.
They are good on certain hulls like the Mega, Talos, Naga, Brutix and most Frigs. Problem is they don't scale up when facing properly implemented gangs.
you are right on many points, but deconstructing the bolded part of your statement: we should assume all gangs are properly implemented. look at the mega. it's a fantastic ship in many situations, and has decent damage projection. but it's completely nullified by the mega pulse Abaddon. the Brutix is nullified by the Cane and Drake. we need to ask ourselves: why fly Gallente?
min-maxed fleets do not allow for Gallente ships  why the fuq does CCP not recognize this? |
Hot Tubes
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 22:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
So make armor ships even easier to catch on gates by changing speed to agility and screwing shield ships on speed instead of armor. Neither sounds, whats the word... Fun. I say just remove Rig Penalties all together.
What is this I don't even
I agree with both rig ideas. The same people who say a ship is fun to fly are often overlooking game balance. For example, nano ships in the nano age were "fun" to fly too |
Alara IonStorm
635
|
Posted - 2011.12.17 22:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hot Tubes wrote:
What is this I don't even
I agree with both rig ideas. The same people who say a ship is fun to fly are often overlooking game balance. For example, nano ships in the nano age were "fun" to fly too
Whats your issue with wiping rig penalties?
Anything you can spot can be quite easily worked out.
|
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 00:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
Opertone wrote:Alara IonStorm wrote:Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Needs to be done regardless:
Armor rigs and plates should only affect agility.
Astronautic rigs should affect shield HP negatively.
So make armor ships even easier to catch on gates by changing speed to agility and screwing shield ships on speed instead of armor. Neither sounds, whats the word... Fun. I say just remove Rig Penalties all together. allow gallente ships to have high MWD velocity, hi straight line charge, disallow gallente maneuvering and orbiting - basically gallente are plated knights with spears and swords. Hard on charge, slow to turn around. Minmatar are fast an low tank. Ammar are cap deficient, but otherwise powerful in all aspects. Somewhat slow. Caldari are falling out. Supposedly snipers, lightest armored ships, not designed for close combat. Caldari role is negligible, their DPS is absurd low. And weak long range fleet will always be charged by Gallente knights.
Well, probably you should pretend this post never happened.
We are talking about pvp here and you are seriously promoting turning on the mwd and charging straight at your opponent.
should i laugh or should i cry?
"You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Wacktopia
Sicarius.
The Kadeshi
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 01:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Kahz Niverrah wrote:Kyoko Sakoda wrote:Blasters also don't do enough extra damage to be viable next to say, using Scorch or Barrage to kite. Confirming Amarr ships are great for kiting.
Lol yeah I hate those kitebaddon fleets. |
Willl Adama
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
62
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 02:09:00 -
[43] - Quote
our guys are reporting that the talos is working out very well in a small gang environment, on par with the tornado (Most people havent figured out how to use it properly yet)
I
as for the hybrid change in general, I Personally think the new fitting requirements are a vastly underestimated buff, it really does a big difference (ions are leagues better than electrrons)
i liked blasters already before the buff, and new I think they're just awesome. But that's probably because they fit well into my playstyle. I guess the problem is that they still don't really have a place in fleet warfare
Latest Video:-á-á Kill Will: Volume 4 |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 03:06:00 -
[44] - Quote
Willl Adama wrote:our guys are reporting that the talos is working out very well in a small gang environment, on par with the tornado (Most people havent figured out how to use it properly yet)
I
as for the hybrid change in general, I Personally think the new fitting requirements are a vastly underestimated buff, it really does a big difference (ions are leagues better than electrrons)
i liked blasters already before the buff, and new I think they're just awesome. But that's probably because they fit well into my playstyle. I guess the problem is that they still don't really have a place in fleet warfare
Well, they were acceptable in situations where range doesn-¦t matter much.
Now they got better in their niche as long as they aren-¦t up against a competent minmatar pilot (what you are saying about the talos being on par with the tornado is ridiculous, minnie ship is orders of magnitude better; if the tornado isn-¦t performing vastly better than the talos, then the tornado pilot just sucks).
The problem is minmatar perform better in the close combat area, their ships are faster and more agile, their weapons can-¦t be neuted, they have utility slots for neuting blasters, multiple damage types make sure the paper dps and real dps aren-¦t as far apart as they are with Gallente... even sniping works only with minnie weapons, the arties, because you can-¦t have sniping in a game without a high alpha weapon.
It-¦s like the Minmatar are the race that-¦s been optimized for that combat style that the Gallente are forced into, although they are not suited for it.
It-¦s often said, the Gallente have their niche, they work there, so it-¦s fine.
Nope, it-¦s not. They were never intended to be used only in few situations. Amarr, Minmatar and Caldari aren-¦t restricted to any niches, so why should the Gallente be? Especially if those niches are so small that you would design two or three ships for filling that niche, not an entire race?
No, the Gallente aren-¦t optimized for close combat although that is the style of combat that is the most difficult and disadvantageous eve has to offer, and tons of advantages -the best ships and weapons- would be needed just to make up for that (with Minmatar close combat and sniping could be reinvented in fleet warfare). Lacking all this the Gallente are pushed back into a few niches, where the environment is so advantageous that even these weapon/ship design failures won-¦t lose always.
But the intention was originally to make close combat and sniping a viable alternative in all kinds of pvp, not a niche solution, so you would have some variety in the game - in the deployed ships/weapons and in the tactics used.
I said it already in other threads and i say it again: let Minmatar handle close combat and sniping and let Gallente handle the medium ranges. The Minmatar alone can make these tactics work widely from solo to fleet, and the Gallente can do the current Minmatar tactics without seeeming overpowered, they don-¦t have a ton of inherent advantages that gets married to the most flexible engagement range.
So just exchange the ranges of AC/blasters and Rails/arties and adjust dps/tracking according to the range change and most balancing issues of minmatar gallente and caldari (they have gunboats too) will be solved.
Or just forget about balance, it won-¦t work any other way. The Minmatar will continue to seem op because they have many addvantages and the most flexible engagement range, the gallente will always be gimped because they need the Minmatar stuff for their tactics, caldari gunboats will still be quite useless and sniping won-¦t ever come back because high alpha is an absolute necessity for that.
"You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 03:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
/edit misread something sorry my bad |
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