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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.10 10:54:00 -
[1]
Yea you reading it right been testing, and testing, and testing and with the current changes to speed boosting and agility even if you are 20 km away blasters can not do enough damage before a blaster equiped BS is killed by another BS.
Since they lowered the speed boost yet kept the Web stasis at the same amount a BS with large hybrid neutron blasters has a hard time getting into range. When you add the fact that MWD now takes up ALOT more capacitor energy, is half as fast and takes up alot more powergrid blasters will go the way of the dinosaur.
Tried every setup and the ones that can get you to within optimal , oor close to it, range will drain so much power that you have nothing left for shield booster or weapons. Even with Cap power relays on all lower slots of a Megathron it don;t help.
SO again don't bother investing into blaster weapons since CCP is set on the current test server changes, with some minor tweaking, but not reverting to anywhere close to old values.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.12.10 10:57:00 -
[2]
Haven't you got oodles of drone space
I can see Dominixes' drones synergise rather well with the blasters.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:05:00 -
[3]
2 Blasts from a single large smart bomb kills the drones pretty much. That or a couple or torps :/
Even with 10 hvy drones they only equal the damage of 1 good large turret weapon :O
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:09:00 -
[4]
Yeah, but up close, they're absolutely devastating. Especially with that yellow screen exploits that's going around (lol lol omg omg).
I do see your point about not getting into close range to get the full blaster experience. Have you tried low slot overdrives?
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Khar'du
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:15:00 -
[5]
I guess they can only be used together with an EW scorp in fleet action then
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:17:00 -
[6]
I even put 7 local hull conversions, that gave me a agility of 90% better AND 21 m/s speed boost up to 268 m/s. Then had a 100 Meganewton, the BS MWD now, added as well and only got up to 710 m/s and drained half my capacitor just to get to close that speed.
The thing is agilty of BS less now so you fly by for many KM's until you ship can turn around. In the meantime you getting blown to bits and using a shiedl booster kills you cap after using the MWD to get to speed.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:22:00 -
[7]
Edited by: j0sephine on 10/12/2003 11:25:37
Heh.
100 MegaNewton Microwarpdrive performance with the Scorpion, at the moment:
Max velocity: 696.8 m/sec
Distance traveled: 20 km before the capacitor is sucked dry and the MWD turns off.
(if you are hit by missiles, they send you flying back at ~600 m/sec. meaning, if you try MWD to approach the ship firing at you it'll wind up with your own vessel pretty much sitting still)
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Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:23:00 -
[8]
yes its known that Blasters and "regular" Hybrids suck.. They will prob stay that way for ALONG time!
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
Cephalus
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Posted - 2003.12.10 11:45:00 -
[9]
yes, never liked blasters, im going whit rails.
whit their fire rate they can be equally devestating as projectile guns, only shorter range. however they still got better range than lasers.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.12.10 14:14:00 -
[10]
 Quote:
Yea you reading it right been testing, and testing, and testing and with the current changes to speed boosting and agility even if you are 20 km away blasters can not do enough damage before a blaster equiped BS is killed by another BS.
Why are you fighting 1-on-1? It's not supposed to work like that.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.12.10 14:18:00 -
[11]
Last I checked, the best Stasis web had been reduced from -84% to -49%. That's pretty far from "the same" unless i'm missing something.
Incursus with Blasters rule btw.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.10 21:05:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Novo DuPont on 10/12/2003 21:13:10
First off Blasters DID NOT suck before the speed boost change. You could close the distance fast enough with MWD to get within range before your shields were taken down to 25% of normal.
Who said EVE was not suppose to be 1 on 1 !?!?! It can be anything the players want it to be, 1 on 1, group action, fleet actions etc.
Large Blasters are the one that suck atm, small and med blasters fitted on frigates and cruiser are still good weapon choices if fighting in groups.
Well look at it this way, taking 75% off 100 is 25. Reducing the base number of 100 to 50 and taking 50% of that is 25. Do you see any difference? There is no difference there BUT when you increase the capacitor power usage by 10 TIMES it most definately makes a difference.
Since web stasis doesn't have class sizes, uses same amount of power to slow down a BS as it does a frigate it makes MWD usless as a escape device. The amount of power needed to make a ship GO would be equal to the amount of power need to make it STOP. Basic law of pyhisics in a zero gravition/vaccum enviroment. So now web stasis devices are MANY time more powerful than they were before.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Bobby Wilson
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Posted - 2003.12.10 21:11:00 -
[13]
Better post this input to weapons and modules, where TomB is actually listening.
AFAIK he WAS really trying to get Gallente to use blasters again. He really needs to hear this.
BTW, how are rails working? Are they still poor 2nd cousins to 1400 arty? I've got BPs for L Neutrons and 425s, hell I've got four of each turret in my hanger but it didn't take much playing around with them vs. a mate with beams to convince me to kit out my Domi with Megabeams and my Megathron with Tachs.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2003.12.10 21:17:00 -
[14]
The BH and others in test server WELL aware of this as I have been making it a point to let them know, and fighting agaisnt them as well to show them.
Right now 425 mm rails ROCK in the test server, special on Gallente BS's with tracking computers installed. They giving the Tach beams and 1400 mm a run for their money, but you need to install more of them than the other 2 to equal out the damage stats. Definately better than mega beams atm and with the ammo size reduction good for long farming missions as well.
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.10 21:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 10/12/2003 21:33:40
TomB DOES "know" about it. Better: our (valid) complains were noted and ignored. That we have 1-2 anti-mwd shouters like Mai'Lina there, who behave like experts but don't seem to have killed anything above frigate NPCs so far (read her posts in the "speed boosting modules" thread for a good laugh) doesn't helps.
And this isn't only above blasters alone - if you have *any* setup for BS or cruisers which relied on a MWD to get into range before you are killed you will find that it won't work anymore.
free speech not allowed here |
Cabadrin
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Posted - 2003.12.10 22:52:00 -
[16]
Oh no. The Battleships are losing all the massive benefits they have gotten since the day they were born. Frigates and cruisers will kill battleships much more easily. Oh no. Look, I'm crying.
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Coalition Kill Board |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.10 22:56:00 -
[17]
I'll be on Chaos this weekend - expect some huge whining or huge CCP ass-kissing 
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
pooti
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Posted - 2003.12.10 22:58:00 -
[18]
I really doubt mwd's were ever meant to be used in combat.
They're just fixing things up, really.
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Darodem
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Posted - 2003.12.10 23:10:00 -
[19]
I consider MWD's are only reasonably useful if you do not plan to fight or if you are working in groups.
It is fairly simple to realize that one on one slugfest fights between equal opponents in Battleships is not economical and is the territory of irresponsible pilots with too many resources.
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.12.10 23:59:00 -
[20]
um battle ships by nature are long range figting platforms.in sea battles they never got within 20 or 30 miles of eachother. your trying to make a battle ship into cruiser or destroyer.
i cant understand about this if im in a ship that can mount weapons that do heavy damage at 60km why on earth do you want to get up close with an enemy?? its bad tatics and just plain aginst all real battle logic.
i understand now with jump point campers you have to do it. but with random jump in points comming battles will get to a real feel two large groups closeing on each other and knocking it out. not this sit and kill people before thier screen loads cowards we have working now.
im a one man corp and got a raven and a scorp just waiting for the changes i know are comming it will make it worth taking them out again.
on a side note to all the battle ship miners out thier you look so stupid minning in 0.5 space. i hope they make it so you cant mount miners on a battle ship it perverts the ship lowering it to such a meaningless task.
wolf
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 00:51:00 -
[21]
Who say that BS are meant to be long range plattforms? Certainly not the Devs. The gallente are traditionally meant to be closerange fighters, TomB himself was saying that (and you can see it in several PotWs).
And nevermind that this isn't only for BS, it's for cruisers as well. Try using a MWD thorax against a maller with HBs or a rupture with cruise and howis - with the right fitting and tactics you can beat them on tranq - no chance at all on chaos.
free speech not allowed here |
Majin Buu
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Posted - 2003.12.11 00:53:00 -
[22]
u can 90% of the time chose the distance u want to fight at on chaos atm. U dont have to fight verytime u see an enemy, u can warp out and warp back in from a diff direction giving you a better fighting range
BoB KillBoard |
Indigo Seqi
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Posted - 2003.12.11 01:38:00 -
[23]
Ana is right, TomB insists on making the megathron a close-range blaster-using pea shooter of death.
A.k.a. long range my ass.
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.11 02:42:00 -
[24]
Warping away and warpign back after re-choosing your distance doesnt really help. In fleet battles you are then not in the fight for a good minute, making your group less effective. Why even have hybrid blasters if battleships are made for long range combat ??? Why did the implement them at all? -Because they wanted close range combat, just as an said.
Using a MWD on a combat **** to get close is a very legit tactic, and can be very powerful in the right hands, with the correct equip etc. I personally love to fight like that. It really scares your enemy when youare 2k away, and they cant hit you.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.12.11 08:05:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Who said EVE was not suppose to be 1 on 1 !?!?! It can be anything the players want it to be, 1 on 1, group action, fleet actions etc.
Sure it can. That's the whole point. If you want to fight solo, find a combination that works well solo; stop trying to fit out your battleship as the close-range unit of a fleet and then complaining that the setup doesn't work when you fight solo. 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Thrak
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Posted - 2003.12.11 08:50:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Sure it can. That's the whole point. If you want to fight solo, find a combination that works well solo; stop trying to fit out your battleship as the close-range unit of a fleet and then complaining that the setup doesn't work when you fight solo.
If a close range blaster setup doesn't work solo it will work even less in a fleet battle.
I've been there. You need the speed even more when 3 battleships target you.
I'm sure you had a good point tho.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.12.11 09:51:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
Who said EVE was not suppose to be 1 on 1 !?!?! It can be anything the players want it to be, 1 on 1, group action, fleet actions etc.
Sure it can. That's the whole point. If you want to fight solo, find a combination that works well solo; stop trying to fit out your battleship as the close-range unit of a fleet and then complaining that the setup doesn't work when you fight solo.
lol like hte other guy said, if you got $hit load of BS's locking on to you and about to blow you up in 30sec-1min without a MWD working as it should be you will be dead and not even get in to range to use your guns LOL
you forget this is the 2nd MWD NERF... ya the first was needed but still this one really hit it hard...
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.11 12:06:00 -
[28]
Quote:
That we have 1-2 anti-mwd shouters like Mai'Lina there, who behave like experts but don't seem to have killed anything above frigate NPCs so far (read her posts in the "speed boosting modules" thread for a good laugh) doesn't helps.
Ana stop harrasing me all over the forums with your assumptions about how I play the game or who/what I have/havenŠt killed.
You donŠt know squat about me so stop the bs'ing!
You donŠt see me wandering everywhere whining about you for not sharing my opinion, do you?
Besides that you still donŠt seem to get the point. You are NOT supposed to cross the distance of 20/40/whatever km in the time you currently are able to on Tranq. It doesnŠt matter if this screws your config as your config is by definition of CCP not valid because of the MWD.
Apart from that I still have the opinion that blaster battleships and cruisers do make a difference if used with proper teamwork and tactics... something you appearently love to ignore.
You can continue to whine about how changes to MWDs are wrong and make CR-combat impossible but that doesnŠt change the fact that the current implementation of MWDs is wrong and needs fixing.
Mai's Idealog |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 12:24:00 -
[29]
Sure, and I have the opinion that "a Virgil can easily kill a Tempest on TQ with proper tactics and teamwork" - but unless I have actually tested this this opinion is BS. Just like your "SR ships can still beat LR ships" opinion.
The only thing we get from you so far were "I tried the thorax against a caracval and some BS, but got destroyed. Which was expected vs missle spammers and/or BS" and the brilliant suggestion to warp to 20k to get within 20k of my targets (perhaps you should try it with other people than those in your gang).
Especially the last thing was showing me that you have no combat experience whatsoever - so, unless you redeem yourself with some posts which actually make sense I will continue to call you what you are.
free speech not allowed here |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.11 13:01:00 -
[30]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 11/12/2003 13:07:05
Quote:
The only thing we get from you so far were "I tried the thorax against a caracval and some BS, but got destroyed. Which was expected vs missle spammers and/or BS" and the brilliant suggestion to warp to 20k to get within 20k of my targets (perhaps you should try it with other people than those in your gang).
This is yet another demonstration of your tendency to draw facts out of thin air and harrass people with your assumptions and sublimnal insults. You donŠt know me, you donŠt know my gang/corp, you donŠt know all the tests I did. You donŠt know how many close range fighters I have in my corp, you donŠt know how many hours IŠve spent on chaos/fighting/whatever.
IŠm not even going to respond to the rest of your bs. Just stop harrasing me with your assumptions please.
You have your opinion, I have mine. But that doesnŠt give you the right to come up with assumptions about how I play, who I am, what I have/havenŠt experienced or what my intention is. Again, STOP harrasing me! DO NOT mention my name in ANY of your posts again.
End of discussion.
Mai's Idealog |
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Kovak
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Posted - 2003.12.11 13:35:00 -
[31]
I also have been testing the close range fighting setup on chaos, basically because I keep on being told its how the gallente are supposed to fight.
At the moment it is basically impossible, you have a chance of being effective if
A: you are within 20k of your target
B: your target doesn't have missiles
even at 20k the bs mwd (which currently uses 750 cap(before skills) for a 450% speed increase and lasts for 10 secs) you'll have sucked at least half your cap by the time you get in range all the time taking damage.
If your opponent has missiles, forget it, you'll be flying backwards.
Close range fighting had a potential of working with the previous mwd setup and the new stronger hybrids, it really doesn't at the moment.
I'm of the opinion that if the new mwd's are going to suck so much cap per usage they should probably get rid of the -25% cap drain. Either that or increase the speed you get from 450% to something a bit more useful.
As a sidenote I was told that the reason for the huge cap usage was to stop people fitting two mwd's... I think perhaps some kind of stacking penalty would be better as opposed to the huge cap usage...
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 13:37:00 -
[32]
Ana doesn't have to be there to know how you play or what not MaiLina.
You provide such information yourself.
You may have tested hours upon hours, your entire corp might be close range berserking rushers and whatever else you want to say.
The F A C T remains that you posted 3-4 times stating: (i can get quotes on all of these but can't be arsed right now)
That MWD killed close range combat.
That you tested close range loadouts only posting that you covered 20km and burned 1/4 of your cap. Without posting a single loadout used even though i asked 3 times. Without doing the proper close range combat test i offered.
That close combat is Simple and shouldn't be made simpler. When LR combat 80% of the time is one right click, one left click, F1-8, Alt+F1 and whoopdido i am done.
That the Devs are always right when they themselves come and ask us to full proof their changes in Chaos.
The only thing i can't answer back is "as your config is by definition of CCP not valid because of the MWD."
TomB seems confused at times concerning this and there have been people on Chaos like BH Victim who have stated that "MWDs shouldn't be used in combat" after asking him about blasters he stated "Blasters (Cannons) now have an optimal of 6km" ..... 6k eh? ... o ... k.
So as you see MaiLina you have barely managed to scratch our arguments while at the same time managed to present yourself as a complete ignorant on the specific subject. Next time before you start crying foul or injury i recommend you think about what you are going to write.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.12.11 15:26:00 -
[33]
Quote:
Ana doesn't have to be there to know how you play or what not MaiLina.
bs.
YouŠve never met me ingame, youŠve never met me in RL, you donŠt know me and how I do/donŠt play. Period.
Quote:
That MWD killed close range combat.
Again... bs.
Just ask yourself: When everybody, no matter if long- or closerange fighter is able to chicken out of a fight within the blink of an eye by using MWD, how do you get to close range to fight? Simple, you donŠt.
Apart from this I have never said that MWD killed CR-combat, I was saying that MWDs are messing up the combat system in general. Just ask the pirates (ALL of them being legit players!) how fair they think MWDs on Tranq are.
Quote:
That you tested close range loadouts only posting that you covered 20km and burned 1/4 of your cap. Without posting a single loadout used even though i asked 3 times. Without doing the proper close range combat test i offered.
Yes, because I donŠt care what you offer/ask and I donŠt feel like telling you my loadouts. Deal with it or move to chaos and try it out yourself. If youŠre the experienced CR-fighter you claim to be youŠll have it figured out in no time.
Quote:
That close combat is Simple and shouldn't be made simpler. When LR combat 80% of the time is one right click, one left click, F1-8, Alt+F1 and whoopdido i am done.
Funny how you brag about me saying that one form of fighting is simple while saying in the same breath how another form of fighting is simple, too. Btw I have never said that CR-combat is easy, I have said that approaching with battleships is too easy as it doesnŠt take anything but a single click on the MWD icon.
Quote:
So as you see MaiLina you have barely managed to scratch our arguments...
Yeah, because trying to maintain a normal discussion with you guys is pretty much the same as trying to get rid of aids...
Quote:
...while at the same time managed to present yourself as a complete ignorant on the specific subject. Next time before you start crying foul or injury i recommend you think about what you are going to write. Next time before you start crying foul or injury i recommend you think about what you are going to write.
1. Keep your funny little suggestions to yourself. I donŠt need people telling me what to write and I really donŠt need your recommendations for anything. Oh do I have to mention that I donŠt give a rats arse about how you think I present myself?
What you just said is exactly what IŠm talking about. You donŠt see me coming up here, posting all over the forums how Juan doesnŠt think about what he writes or how inexperienced he is, do you? Simply because IŠm a polite person and I wonŠt lower myself to your level by trying to back up my claims with completely fictional fact about you as a person.
2. My last post wasnŠt even about MWDs or CR-combat anymore. It was about Ana jumping all over the forums spreading assumptions in a freak attemt to make me look inexperienced or whatever he/she thinks I am.
IŠll say it one last time: You donŠt know me, so stop harrassing me with assumptions about who I am, what I do or what I know. LEAVE... ME... ALONE!
Was that clear enough for you? If not then pity for you as this is last post on this matter because I donŠt feel like playing quote-wars today. You think CR-combat will become impossible after the patch? Fine for you. Maybe your right even. ThatŠs your opinion and I respect it WITHOUT claiming to know who you are or how you play.
Mai's Idealog |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 16:18:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/12/2003 16:20:40
Quote:
Again... bs.
Just ask yourself: When everybody, no matter if long- or closerange fighter is able to chicken out of a fight within the blink of an eye by using MWD, how do you get to close range to fight? Simple, you donŠt.
Apart from this I have never said that MWD killed CR-combat, I was saying that MWDs are messing up the combat system in general. Just ask the pirates (ALL of them being legit players!) how fair they think MWDs on Tranq are.
The biggest example to me of how the mwd really breaks the combat system is what happens when LR setups start using them to maintain a LR fight. People begin crossing grid lines.
It does work both ways, people. Same module that the SR setups rely on to get to short range, the LR setups use to stay at long range. And I still believe that choosing a setup is choosing a Strategy. Blind jumping into a situation with a specialized setup is a flawed Strategy to begin with, imo. But if a person insists on doing so, then they should have to commit to that Strategy. And make the best out of a bad situation Tactically if that's what they find. There was a person that posted by the time he got to short range with his ship he was half through his armor. That's a bad Tactical decision on his part, given that turning and leaving was prolly an option the entire time. Trying to brute force a flawed Strategy into a winning one through a single module isn't real combat.
Oh and as for the background concerning what Gallente use, a small note:
Gallente engineers apparently weren't dumb enough to overlook the need for longer range weapons.
Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I
425mm Compressed Coil Gun I
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 16:22:00 -
[35]
Quote:
bs.
YouŠve never met me ingame, youŠve never met me in RL, you donŠt know me and how I do/donŠt play. Period.
As i said that isn't the only criterium in order to formulate an opinion on someone.
Quote:
Apart from this I have never said that MWD killed CR-combat,
"Speed Boosting Modules Use Mass Of Ships"
Posted - 08/12/2003 13:12:00
Quote:
Yes, because I donŠt care what you offer/ask and I donŠt feel like telling you my loadouts. Deal with it or move to chaos and try it out yourself. If youŠre the experienced CR-fighter you claim to be youŠll have it figured out in no time.
I tested it on chaos, unlike you i don't speak out of the blue in issues i am not familiar with. Various loadouts: Web + Scrambler or Dampeners, Mag stabs or Cap relays or Overdrives, 400mm ain't viable anymore. Full blasters on all
Quote:
Funny how you brag about me saying that one form of fighting is simple while saying in the same breath how another form of fighting is simple, too.
Funny how you cannot get a hint that points out how inaccurate your point was.
Quote:
Btw I have never said that CR-combat is easy,
"Speed Boosting Modules Use Mass Of Ships"
Posted - 08/12/2003 13:37:00
Quote:
I have said that approaching with battleships is too easy as it doesnŠt take anything but a single click on the MWD icon.
Yet another clear sign that you have limited if no knowledge at all concerning the specific subject.
Quote:
I donŠt need people telling me what to write and I really donŠt need your recommendations for anything. Oh do I have to mention that I donŠt give a rats arse about how you think I present myself?
If you don't give a rat's arse what me or whoever else thinks about you, why are you so upset about Ana posting about you?
I don't expect to be left unanswered if i start typing unsabstansiated comments concerning topics when it is evident that i have no or very limited knowledge. I don't see why you should have such expectations. You entered an argument and certain people answered back.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 16:40:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 11/12/2003 16:44:08
Quote:
There was a person that posted by the time he got to short range with his ship he was half through his armor
Against prepared opponents that is very common.
Proper maneuvring and good fitting will comes in at that point.
I've had cases where my MWD decided to switch off half way to my target... resulting in reaching him at 40% armor. But once in orbit at ~2km with proper speed and good damage output (for Cruiser vs Cruiser at least) even 20% armor can be enough for you to kill yer target first.
Thats pre-Castor... post Castor maneuvring at close range with the 10 sec duration and the high fitting reqs of MWDs which don't allow for an AB is becoming frustrating to say the least.
Quote:
The biggest example to me of how the mwd really breaks the combat system is what happens when LR setups start using them to maintain a LR fight. People begin crossing grid lines.
Excuse me Jash but that ain't a direct MWD issue. So what if they used Abs and ended up outside the grid because the pursuers could match speed? LR with mwd don't mix that well. LR is much more cap consuming than CR and firing at 500+m/s won't get you many hits:P
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 17:17:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/12/2003 17:23:56
Quote:
bs.
YouŠve never met me ingame, youŠve never met me in RL, you donŠt know me and how I do/donŠt play. Period.
Then you must surly know us quite well, otherwise I cannot see how you are able to say these things:
I just donŠt get the point why you guys keep sticking to the bs concept of battleships operating alone...
You stick to your uber-battleships with MWD to always get you out of trouble.
youŠre just another one of those who appearently love battleship-only fights
you expect battleships to behave like frigates
You must practically living next to us to know our hidden agenda of maintaining closerange BS as uber-top everything killer (I mean, perhaps 10% of Eve use such a setup in spite of the other 80%, which use longrange - it MUST be uber when only so few people are using it).
You certainly couldn't deduct it from our posts, where we used 1v1 as well as fleet scenarios with cruisers and BS as SR-ships and frigs as support craft.
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I have said that approaching with battleships is too easy as it doesnŠt take anything but a single click on the MWD icon.
You know, ..er..not allowed to mention your name anymore.. "female avatar with 7 letters, who doesn't knows anything about shortrange combat"..mhh.. no, too obvious, everything will know it's you..let's take this one...Madam X, the longer you talk, the more your nonexistant knowledge get's obvious.
What do you get by using your stratgey at TQ?
Ok, there's this apoc with tachyons at 30k, let's approach and kill him with my blasters.
*approaching*
Hey, he is hitting me! My shield is already gone. Maybe I should have used a little more advanced moving pattern than simply approaching him to avoid shots But I'll be in range for my guns in a few secs, than I will kill him!
*wooosh*
WTF. I overshot him, I'm now already again 15k away from him and still haven't stopped. And he hits me again. Only 50% armor left. Perhaps I should have micromanaged the MWD with short burst in the final approach phase so I could slow down when I was in range with my guns. But I should be still be able to reach him - more carefully this time - and then go into orbit at 5 km with my MWD BS, it must have frig agility with that speed.
*bonga-bonga-bonga-bonga*
Great. Now I'm bouncing between the "sides" of my orbit since one minute. Since my BS seems to still have a vastly worse agility than a frig (but two people were saying so in the forum - it HAS to be true!) it cannot orbit at thsi range correctly. And the apoc can hit me perfectly even so close, since I don't move for his guns. There goes the last of my hull..
*Booom*
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2. My last post wasnŠt even about MWDs or CR-combat anymore. It was about Ana jumping all over the forums spreading assumptions in a freak attemt to make me look inexperienced or whatever he/she thinks I am.
....
You think CR-combat will become impossible after the patch? Fine for you. Maybe your right even. ThatŠs your opinion and I respect it WITHOUT claiming to know who you are or how you play.
I have to agree to the first part, mentioning your name wasn't really fair play. But I must say that you brought that on yourself. Because, contrary what you are saying you do NOT respect (our opinions) WITHOUT claiming to know who (we) are or how (we) play.
Everyone who dares to spoil your little dream about "a frig to rule them all" with comments about the MWD changes will bring more bad than good get your "you only want to continue doing 1v1 in a BS and be able to flee all the time" argument thrown at his/her head, no matter what he/she wrote.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 17:35:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 11/12/2003 16:44:08
Quote:
There was a person that posted by the time he got to short range with his ship he was half through his armor
Against prepared opponents that is very common.
Proper maneuvring and good fitting will comes in at that point.
I've had cases where my MWD decided to switch off half way to my target... resulting in reaching him at 40% armor. But once in orbit at ~2km with proper speed and good damage output (for Cruiser vs Cruiser at least) even 20% armor can be enough for you to kill yer target first.
Thats pre-Castor... post Castor maneuvring at close range with the 10 sec duration and the high fitting reqs of MWDs which don't allow for an AB is becoming frustrating to say the least.
There are too many different issues with points and counterpoints at the moment to declare anything impossible. Combat no longer takes place at 20km by default. There is a heavy push to use teamwork now (using runner frigates and cruisers as warp in beacons has been mentioned in this argument before). Battleships have had their vulnerability to smaller ships magnified with targetting changes. And everyone has to re-eval their current strategies to compensate.
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The biggest example to me of how the mwd really breaks the combat system is what happens when LR setups start using them to maintain a LR fight. People begin crossing grid lines.
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Excuse me Jash but that ain't a direct MWD issue. So what if they used Abs and ended up outside the grid because the pursuers could match speed? LR with mwd don't mix that well. LR is much more cap consuming than CR and firing at 500+m/s won't get you many hits:P
Grid crossing is a symptom though and should be a valid concern from the developer's perspective. The questionable 'tactics' such maneuvering causes are issues that have to be resolved as well. And LR with MWD mix extremely well depending on your weapon choice. You said earlier that you've reached your target with 40% armor remaining but once you orbited at 2km even 20% armor could be enough for a kill. Question:
Why didn't your target just activate his MWD and choose Keep At-> whatever range he wanted? Pre-Castor that type of maneuver is completely possible, keeping you inside warp scrambling range and outside your blaster range while using 1200mm or the aforementioned 800mm to break you.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Locuila
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Posted - 2003.12.11 17:37:00 -
[39]
Aaaaaand another thread turns into a flame war. Congratulations on all you trolls out there that managed to get your panties in a bunch, yet again.
___________________________________
I love being podded. - Hampstah |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 17:58:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/12/2003 18:00:54
Quote:
Aaaaaand another thread turns into a flame war. Congratulations on all you trolls out there that managed to get your panties in a bunch, yet again.
Did you forget to bring your asbestos underwear?  Both sides of this discussion are pretty serious about it, it's no wonder that things get hot.
Quote:
Pre-Castor that type of maneuver is completely possible, keeping you inside warp scrambling range and outside your blaster range while using 1200mm or the aforementioned 800mm to break you.
True, but there are two things which will spoil this:
- A shortrange ship will usually have speed mods in their lows, making them faster than the LR ship, even if both are using MWDs.
- By using angled approach vectors the SR won't be hit by the longrange ship, the best the LR can achieve is a draw.
And nevermind that this tactics is still possible in theory at post-castor, too, with the exeption that the LR ship don't really will have to bother doing so, since it will very likely be able to kill the SR before it got close.
Generally: It's of cource possible to fit a LR ship that it can deal with a SR one. Problem here is that such a LR ship will loose against a pure LR ship with no MWD.
free speech not allowed here |
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:05:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 11/12/2003 18:06:44
Quote:
Why didn't your target just activate his MWD and choose Keep At-> whatever range he wanted? Pre-Castor that type of maneuver is completely possible, keeping you inside warp scrambling range and outside your blaster range while using 1200mm or the aforementioned 800mm to break you.
Talking pre-Castor
Going into 1 v 1 fighting and possible outcomes based on setups can take ages... but i 'll try to answer in a general way.
Most of the time once the CR ship makes it to 10km he 'll web and scramble. Even if the opponent webs back he won't be able to outrun the CR ship at best he'll match it.(To my knowledge most of the loadouts CR ships use are slightly faster tha LR MWD loadouts)
The LR ship will be able to hit the webbed CR ship better even if the CR pilot is pushing his MWD on auto just to keep managable speed. But he won't be able to put distance between them. Usually such cases boil down to DoT and extra features such as drones smart bombs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:09:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Quote:
Pre-Castor that type of maneuver is completely possible, keeping you inside warp scrambling range and outside your blaster range while using 1200mm or the aforementioned 800mm to break you.
True, but there are two things which will spoil this:
- A shortrange ship will usually have speed mods in their lows, making them faster than the LR ship, even if both are using MWDs.
- By using angled approach vectors the SR won't be hit by the longrange ship, the best the LR can achieve is a draw.
And nevermind that this tactics is still possible in theory at post-castor, too, with the exeption that the LR ship don't really will have to bother doing so, since it will very likely be able to kill the SR before it got close.
Generally: It's of cource possible to fit a LR ship that it can deal with a SR one. Problem here is that such a LR ship will loose against a pure LR ship with no MWD.
Again, it comes down to Tactics. All sides are trapped by their choice of strategy. Selecting a specialized platform comes with a disadvantage. And with variable warp in distances, theory and tests under set criteria will not hold up in actual practice. I love using 1400mm artillery. But you can be sure I've stripped them off my ships already. They're too high a liability.
Besides, at least if you get swarmed by cruisers you might actually have a chance of hitting one with blasters once in a while.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
voogru
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:25:00 -
[43]
Hmm, Heres an idea.
Have webbers that do a certain mass, just like AB's/MWD's.
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Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 827.3 damage. |
var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:31:00 -
[44]
lol what anger. tatics are very important a short range ship has its uses but one is not to close on a long range ship that has not been in a fight yet. first in a fleet action your long range ships start the enconter as the other ships hang back out of sight or cloaked when it is put into the game.
as the long range ships expend thier munitions the enemy will try to close. when they close to a range that negates the long rang ships weapons they web lock the enemy and then send in your fast blaster ships after the enemy has taken damage and used thier cap.
and anyway if in the end you have two ships web locked and just pounding one another who wants a mwd anyway id rather have my whole cap and sheild . and ofcorse 3 black birds with jammers and torps. like sun tuz think thats spelled right said (only a fool fights an enemy on his own terms)
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:35:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/12/2003 18:37:34
Quote:
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 11/12/2003 18:06:44
Quote:
Why didn't your target just activate his MWD and choose Keep At-> whatever range he wanted? Pre-Castor that type of maneuver is completely possible, keeping you inside warp scrambling range and outside your blaster range while using 1200mm or the aforementioned 800mm to break you.
Talking pre-Castor
Going into 1 v 1 fighting and possible outcomes based on setups can take ages... but i 'll try to answer in a general way.
Most of the time once the CR ship makes it to 10km he 'll web and scramble. Even if the opponent webs back he won't be able to outrun the CR ship at best he'll match it.(To my knowledge most of the loadouts CR ships use are slightly faster tha LR MWD loadouts)
The LR ship will be able to hit the webbed CR ship better even if the CR pilot is pushing his MWD on auto just to keep managable speed. But he won't be able to put distance between them. Usually such cases boil down to DoT and extra features such as drones smart bombs.
That's what I'm trying to get at, Juan. That and I'm spoiled by Minmatar ships
Unless you controlled where the battle would take place, why would anyone let you get within webify range in the first place? I wouldn't unless I made a mistake, which is an issue of Tactics. If I'm equipped with MWD + Warp Scrambler + 1200mm/800mm my setup, my Strategy, is to deal with you where you cannot hurt me effectively and keep you there. And if you controlled where the battle would take place then your Strategy in setting up should take in account being in range in the first place.
Won't bother mentioning missiles to keep the fight dishonest with blowback in case you get too close. Debateable if that's a bug or a Tactic
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Lidza
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Posted - 2003.12.11 18:59:00 -
[46]
I've got no idea why you want to get close to the enemy since a BS is meant to kill it/damage it from long distance... that is the main purpose for a BS combat... beside that... why have u fitted a microwarp drive in ur BS while you are fighting?
Microwarp drives reduce 50% of your shields, so its a bad fit to have even if u intent to run from your enemy... coz if its 1-to-1 you probably be successful using them... (if ur ship isn't destroyed before being released from scramble... remember u don't have 50% of ur shields)...
But in situations of 1-for-to-many ur ship is lost due to mwp, multiple scramble may happened and with 50% shields reduced... u will be a nice beautiful duck waiting for a egg.
Take care
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:05:00 -
[47]
Edited by: j0sephine on 11/12/2003 19:05:55
"I've got no idea why you want to get close to the enemy since a BS is meant to kill it/damage it from long distance... that is the main purpose for a BS combat..."
... Gallente are short range combat specialists according to the game developers. That's the very reason their battleships receive bonus which improves performance of short range hybrid turrets the most.
In other words no, the battleship isn't meant to kill from long distance. It's meant to kill from distance most suitable for weapons it uses.
"beside that... why have u fitted a microwarp drive in ur BS while you are fighting?"
For the speed advantage; which might be more important than the penalty of lowered shields and capacitor size/recharge, given selected tactics.
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Lidza
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:26:00 -
[48]
ic :)
Now I got ur tactics opinion, I wouldn't disagree with ur tactical view...
But personally prefer to have a nice shields on my gallent BS rather than be fast because if my BS is heavily scramble by enemies... I wouldn't go faster anyway even if I had mwd... except to go fast to see the fire-works show :) (but that is my opinion)
By-the-way, check for good caps and u solve ur caps problem... beside caps tech2 are already out there and they are really nice to have it for all situations (fast re-cap and doesn't affect shields neither reduce total cap) ... are hard to find but not impossible :)
Regards
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:29:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/12/2003 19:38:19
It's still possible on TQ to dodge shots of LR guns, get on close range, perhaps use ~2 trackins disruptors and hit the LR ship with SR weapons while their guns tracking cannot keep up with your orbiting speed. 50% less shield don't matter when you don't get hit.
On TQ we have basically a stone-scissors-paper situation.
LR beats missle spammer - missle spammer beats SR - SR beats LR
Of cource there are counters and counter-counters and so on here, but down to the basics it's that way IMO.
The current MWD changes all but destroy SR combat - and will make LR ships more or less the only realistic option in PVP - for cruisers as well as BS.
That doesn't means that SR ship cannot win - but those wins would require tremendous planning or certain rare situations. And why doing this/taking the risk when you can get the same result with LR with fewer recources? No change will make any setup impossible - but it can decrease its effeciency so drastically that noone would bother to use it.
A similar effeciency reduction for LR ships would be a so extreme lowering of their tracking speed that any target would have to be webbed by SR ships to a speed below 50 ms so that the LR ships can even dream to be able to hit it.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:33:00 -
[50]
Quote:
It's still possible on TQ to dodge shots of LR guns, get on close range, perhaps use ~2 trackins disruptors and hit the LR ship with SR weapons while their guns tracking cannot keep up with your orbiting speed. 50% less shield don't matter when you don't get hit.
On TQ we have basically a stone-scissors-paper situation.
LR beats missle spammer - missle spammer beats SR - SR beats LR
Of cource there are counters and counter-counters and so on here, but down to the basics it's that way IMO.
The current MWD changes all but destroy SR combat - and will make LR ships more or less the only realistic option in PVP - for cruisers as well as BS.
That doesn't means that SR ship cannot win - but those wins would require tremendous planning or certain rare situations. And why doing this/taking the risk when you can get the same result with LR with fewer recources?
How does long range get into a position to win?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 19:41:00 -
[51]
Quote:
How does long range get into a position to win?
By retreating and calling the (missle) cavallery.
A mixed force of missle spammers and LR will pretty much spoil the day for any SR force.
They themselfes on the other hand could be killed by a pure LR force.
Which, in turn, will have problems with a pure SR force. And so on.
free speech not allowed here |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:17:00 -
[52]
"How does long range get into a position to win?"
... Warp To > Within 50 km? ;)
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:22:00 -
[53]
I totally agree with Ana on the paper-rock-scissor analogy. It is exactly that. I am personally a short range pilot and I fear a scorp, raven, or tempest (assuming they use 4 missles n 4 turrets, vs the silly 2 missle 6 turret approach). Ill fight a armogeddon in a caracal any day with a caracal. All you gotta do is Weapons disrupt them and fly really damned fast. You NEVER get hit and with proper speed/energy management you can keep that up forever. Eventually they will A) turn off their guns on only run their booster.. which would end in a very slow kill or draw due to running out of missles, or B) be stupid and keep on trying to hit you, run their cap out, and be sitting ducks.
Same tactic with a short range BS, get within 1.5-3k and orbit, you rarely get hit, and when you do its for scratches mostly. Usually you have lost all of your sheilds and 0-40% of your armor but thats okay.
Very few people use this because it takes a long of skill to manage your distance, speed, energy, etc.
Where as a medium to long range fight all you gotta do is half ass manage your distance, and have a setup with which you can run indefinetely (ie 4 tachs with lots of cap relays). You can't be WS, you can't get webbed and you can run at any time, mwd or not. You can also do some uber damage with tachs and 1400s.
Close combat right now is more challenging and it takes mega balls. You leave yourself open to being WS = harder to run away, Web = compounding the difficulty. On top of all of that, you currently cant hit ANYTHING consistently over 5k.
So, what shall we do about this? Ah make MWD suck the crap out of your cap, making anyone who uses this strategy dry and easily killed.
Yay now we will have two types of combatants instead of 3. Long Range, and missle boats. I love the options.
I have already switched to using 250 rails on my megathron because A) Blasters will be worthless, and to an extent are now B) Dual 250s are worthless, C) 425s are wrothless
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:25:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Quote:
How does long range get into a position to win?
By retreating and calling the (missle) cavallery.
A mixed force of missle spammers and LR will pretty much spoil the day for any SR force.
They themselfes on the other hand could be killed by a pure LR force.
Which, in turn, will have problems with a pure SR force. And so on.
Now wait a minute. Why do the long range get to work together and the SR ships have to go it alone?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:26:00 -
[55]
[quote
How does long range get into a position to win?
Right now fighting consists of engagements at a JIP, station, or gate. The JIP part is a bit more difficult because you land in a semi random spot, and your enemy can be anywhere around you, so their ranges can vary.
Station: Easy the group camping the gate positions themselvse to that when you warp in, you are at X range from them. So if you are both long range, you are both not too close. Same goes with a gate. Rarely do people sit behind the point that people warp into. Most sit right on the gate or behidn it, already giving both parties needed distance.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:33:00 -
[56]
Quote:
"How does long range get into a position to win?"
... Warp To > Within 50 km? ;)
Aye and I'd be gambling that someone hadn't done the same with their SR battleship, waiting to trap anyone with the intent to engage from that range...
Unless I somehow had advanced knowledge the way was clear, no?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:40:00 -
[57]
"Aye and I'd be gambling that someone hadn't done the same with their SR battleship, waiting to trap anyone with the intent to engage from that range...
Unless I somehow had advanced knowledge the way was clear, no?"
Well, you could send the scout first... they would be invisible for the minute, and can tell your forces if the warp-in is clear.. if it's not, you warp to 20k range instead, trapping the short combat ships off-guard again. o.O;
(no one should get in the battle blindly, right? ^^;;
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:41:00 -
[58]
Quote:
(if you are hit by missiles, they send you flying back at ~600 m/sec. meaning, if you try MWD to approach the ship firing at you it'll wind up with your own vessel pretty much sitting still)
that's STILL not fixed???
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:41:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Quote:
How does long range get into a position to win?
Right now fighting consists of engagements at a JIP, station, or gate. The JIP part is a bit more difficult because you land in a semi random spot, and your enemy can be anywhere around you, so their ranges can vary.
Station: Easy the group camping the gate positions themselvse to that when you warp in, you are at X range from them. So if you are both long range, you are both not too close. Same goes with a gate. Rarely do people sit behind the point that people warp into. Most sit right on the gate or behidn it, already giving both parties needed distance.
So it comes down to who chooses the battlefied? Now explain why you have to keep the fight honest and drive across their kill zone with a "Shoot Me!" billboard on your ship instead of using Strategy + Tactics (bringing runner ships to provide warp in beacons) to counter? That works better than sucking down cap repairing shields + pushing a mwd Pre-Castor.
I've even seen people try to be sneaky with using a scout to create bookmarks around the target vessel. Might have worked if I hadn't guessed what they were up to, warped out and back in to another bookmark I setup that put my old position in effective range of the 1400s.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:42:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Last I checked, the best Stasis web had been reduced from -84% to -49%.
OUCH! i've been having gfx problems and not ingame. Wow. That's not 'stasis!' They should call it an "inconvenience web..."
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:46:00 -
[61]
Quote:
Quote:
Last I checked, the best Stasis web had been reduced from -84% to -49%.
OUCH! i've been having gfx problems and not ingame. Wow. That's not 'stasis!' They should call it an "inconvenience web..."
Heh...well gotta admit when existing webifiers were already 84% effective, it didn't leave much room for improvement with upcoming techs.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:46:00 -
[62]
Jash you are right, you don't have to run across someones firing path and get to them, or let them pick the battle.. Thats the problem though, the ONLY time a short range ship will be any good is when someone lands on him.
How often do you land within 3k of the ship that you want to kill? Im sure it happsn some, especially if you both warp to a statino or gate at the same time, but not when something is being camped. So in effect the SR bs will have to be campers only, and never be able to go on the offensive  . And to be honest that is somethign that works in their favour, they become offensive, get in close, and kick some ass. It really scares someone when you get really close to them and they are no longer able to hit you (especially if they have never had it happen)
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Stoop
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Posted - 2003.12.11 20:48:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Heh...well gotta admit when existing webifiers were already 84% effective, it didn't leave much room for improvement with upcoming techs.
 Come on you know you want a device that puts such a force on a ship that they go -110% of their speed and implode. 
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 21:12:00 -
[64]
Quote:
Jash you are right, you don't have to run across someones firing path and get to them, or let them pick the battle.. Thats the problem though, the ONLY time a short range ship will be any good is when someone lands on him.
How often do you land within 3k of the ship that you want to kill? Im sure it happsn some, especially if you both warp to a statino or gate at the same time, but not when something is being camped. So in effect the SR bs will have to be campers only, and never be able to go on the offensive . And to be honest that is somethign that works in their favour, they become offensive, get in close, and kick some ass. It really scares someone when you get really close to them and they are no longer able to hit you (especially if they have never had it happen)
Stoop, it works both ways. I cannot count on people sitting dead in the sweet spot of 1400mm range through blind luck. If I want to use those guns to be fully effective I have to insert control somewhere to make that happen. Either by controlling where the battle takes place or by using assets to control my placement on my terms.
Now if you're really concerned about LR guns dominating under the changes, wouldn't the effort be better spent proving their tracking is too high after taking into account the new mechanics affecting the general velocity of targets at certain ranges during battle?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.12.11 21:27:00 -
[65]
well you short range fighters will love when cloak is put into the game. it perfect for your needs it will leave you with no sheilds but that will matter little. for the guy you open up on will try to get away and not even try to lock till its too late.
and who says the long range weapons are guns?? lol 6 siege launchers and torps will ruin the day for most ships no? and why will the long range guy just sit thier i would turn ass and move away from the enemy even if your faster its a game of catch up for you. id just lay fire stright back at him if you want me you have to follow and tracking speed means nothing on a stright in shot
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:00:00 -
[66]
Quote:
Quote:
"How does long range get into a position to win?"
... Warp To > Within 50 km? ;)
Aye and I'd be gambling that someone hadn't done the same with their SR battleship, waiting to trap anyone with the intent to engage from that range...
Unless I somehow had advanced knowledge the way was clear, no?
There is a extremly simple solution for this - don't use the "usual" way to the gate. When you warp from planet x to the gate you'll end up at a entirely other point that by warping from planet y.
And about the nice little teamwork argument - let me quote myself:
Quote:
A similar effeciency reduction for LR ships would be a so extreme lowering of their tracking speed that any target would have to be webbed by SR ships to a speed below 50 ms so that the LR ships can even dream to be able to hit it.
So I assume such a change would be perfectly OK, since it can be "easily" countered by teamwork, right?
Quote:
well you short range fighters will love when cloak is put into the game.
Not really. In it's present form cloak will only be of use to missle spammers - perhaps. As it is now I'd rather fit a damage control modul.
Quote:
and who says the long range weapons are guns?? lol 6 siege launchers and torps will ruin the day for most ships no?
With longrange I mean LONG range. I'm talking about ships which can (and will) fire at ranges between 50-80km.
Cruise need to travel (with max missle skill!) 25-40s for this distance. Torps 40 - 60 secs... In this time LR ships could already killed half of your fleet.
No, missle spammers work best at short-medium range.
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:12:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Stoop, it works both ways. I cannot count on people sitting dead in the sweet spot of 1400mm range through blind luck. If I want to use those guns to be fully effective I have to insert control somewhere to make that happen. Either by controlling where the battle takes place or by using assets to control my placement on my terms
True, but the "somewhere" is a LOT bigger than with shortrange guns. What ranges are useable for the 1400's? 30km-80km approximatly?
For a neutron cannon it's, give or take, 5-15km.
It#s pretty easy to place yourself right with a LR weapon, but with a SR it takes an extreme amount of preperation and accuracy, way too much to be outweighted by possible advantages.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:18:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/12/2003 22:22:02
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"How does long range get into a position to win?"
... Warp To > Within 50 km? ;)
Aye and I'd be gambling that someone hadn't done the same with their SR battleship, waiting to trap anyone with the intent to engage from that range...
Unless I somehow had advanced knowledge the way was clear, no?
There is a extremly simple solution for this - don't use the "usual" way to the gate. When you warp from planet x to the gate you'll end up at a entirely other point that by warping from planet y.
You can bet your ships on blind luck if you want. I find that to be strategically and tactically unwise. Demanding that the use of such unwise tactics be valid through brute force diminishes the effort people put in to actually planning something.
Quote:
And about the nice little teamwork argument - let me quote myself:
Quote:
A similar effeciency reduction for LR ships would be a so extreme lowering of their tracking speed that any target would have to be webbed by SR ships to a speed below 50 ms so that the LR ships can even dream to be able to hit it.
So I assume such a change would be perfectly OK, since it can be "easily" countered by teamwork, right?
For the last time:
If you do not want to do the work to use your weapons, don't cry foul for your own failures. People in this game have been relying on luck, brute force and holes in the mechanics to win fights they shouldn't have for too long. Now that strategy and tactics even begins to look like they'll get a chance to enter the game, people are throwing tantrums.
You have options. Use them.
If you want support for better tools to utilize your weapons, fine. But the usage of microwarp drive to achieve absurdedly high speeds for long periods of time has been affecting PvP since the module was introduced.
Quote:
True, but the "somewhere" is a LOT bigger than with shortrange guns. What ranges are useable for the 1400's? 30km-80km approximatly?
For a neutron cannon it's, give or take, 5-15km.
It#s pretty easy to place yourself right with a LR weapon, but with a SR it takes an extreme amount of preperation and accuracy, way too much to be outweighted by possible advantages.
What has been the primary complaint of PvP? It all takes place around the same damn range: 20km. That's 10km below your quoted effective range for 1400mm.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:30:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/12/2003 22:22:02
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"How does long range get into a position to win?"
... Warp To > Within 50 km? ;)
Aye and I'd be gambling that someone hadn't done the same with their SR battleship, waiting to trap anyone with the intent to engage from that range...
Unless I somehow had advanced knowledge the way was clear, no?
There is a extremly simple solution for this - don't use the "usual" way to the gate. When you warp from planet x to the gate you'll end up at a entirely other point that by warping from planet y.
You can bet your ships on blind luck if you want. I find that to be strategically and tactically unwise. Demanding that the use of such unwise tactics be valid through brute force diminishes the effort people put in to actually planning something.
Quote:
And about the nice little teamwork argument - let me quote myself:
Quote:
A similar effeciency reduction for LR ships would be a so extreme lowering of their tracking speed that any target would have to be webbed by SR ships to a speed below 50 ms so that the LR ships can even dream to be able to hit it.
So I assume such a change would be perfectly OK, since it can be "easily" countered by teamwork, right?
For the last time:
If you do not want to do the work to use your weapons, don't cry foul for your own failures. People in this game have been relying on luck, brute force and holes in the mechanics to win fights they shouldn't have for too long. Now that strategy and tactics even begins to look like they'll get a chance to enter the game, people are throwing tantrums.
You have options. Use them.
If you want support for better tools to utilize your weapons, fine. But the usage of microwarp drive to achieve absurdedly high speeds for long periods of time has been affecting PvP since the module was introduced.
Quote:
True, but the "somewhere" is a LOT bigger than with shortrange guns. What ranges are useable for the 1400's? 30km-80km approximatly?
For a neutron cannon it's, give or take, 5-15km.
It#s pretty easy to place yourself right with a LR weapon, but with a SR it takes an extreme amount of preperation and accuracy, way too much to be outweighted by possible advantages.
What has been the primary complaint of PvP? It all takes place around the same damn range: 20km. That's 10km below your quoted effective range for 1400mm.
PvP is still going to take place at 20km - the designated no-warp zone.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:36:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 11/12/2003 22:44:01
Quote:
PvP is still going to take place at 20km - the designated no-warp zone.
Not really. You don't need to scramble the victim anymore - the gate does this for you - so you can easily park a few BS 30-40 km away from the gate.
And perhaps 1-2 frigs with webs near the gate, but those are only optional. And one indy nearby to pick up what's left.
(BTW: was the one page quote really necessary?)
Quote:
What has been the primary complaint of PvP? It all takes place around the same damn range: 20km. That's 10km below your quoted effective range for 1400mm.
Add the promised longrange or area effect scramblers to the new warpouts at up to 50km and your 20k combat outside from gates will vanish altogether. Even now we'll see frigs close scrambling/webbing and BS far out doing the kill.
As for the rest of your "answers", Jash, I will acknowledge them when they are something else than variations of *babababa - I don't hear you* and actually answers to my points.
free speech not allowed here |
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:43:00 -
[71]
was just useing torps as a refrence long range will win 90% of the encounters with a short range ship as long as the long range ship has the one thing it needs distance.
as for where you jump in relationship to a gate i set book marks 60km away from a gate i know is camped and i jump from a moon and not the jump in point. so that makes the guessing where you jump taken out of the encounter.
and after you use it one time waite till late at nite and make a new book mark fools the hell out of them when they sit at your old spot and you warp in somplace eles :O).
and for the just **** them off factor i take my bb with warp satbizers and targeting jammers jump into a warp point under thier guns and just fly away. makes for some nice local chat you got to love the bb for its ability to turn and burn one of the most nible cruisers in the game now.
wolf
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Brom
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:44:00 -
[72]
If you want to beat ass, go minmatar with a dual 650 mm autocannon and get in close. That'll cut most any ship to shreds. It's just that simple. I fly a caldari ship, which gets bonuses to hybrid performance, and that does't do much good when hybrids suck in the first place!
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:44:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Quote:
PvP is still going to take place at 20km - the designated no-warp zone.
Not really. You don't need to scramble the victim anymore - the gate does this for you - so you can easily park a few BS 30-40 km away from the gate.
And perhaps 1-2 frigs with webs near the gate, but those are only optional. And one indy nearby to pick up what's left.
So for all the promise of "tactics" in this patch, it's going to come down to FRIGATES -> WEBIFY, BATTLESHIPS -> GANK?
Webifiers are the new tachyon - a battleship has no reasonable way of escaping them even with 2 MWD's.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:48:00 -
[74]
Quote:
was just useing torps as a refrence long range will win 90% of the encounters with a short range ship as long as the long range ship has the one thing it needs distance.
True, but the missle spammer will win, too, if it's only at 15-20km. Range doesn't really matters for one other than the waiting time till the missles are at the target.
Long range guns will have some problems at this distance on the other hand.
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:53:00 -
[75]
Quote:
So for all the promise of "tactics" in this patch, it's going to come down to FRIGATES -> WEBIFY, BATTLESHIPS -> GANK?
Webifiers are the new tachyon - a battleship has no reasonable way of escaping them even with 2 MWD's.
Eeee-xactly. Give this man a cigar.
(Isn't meant sarcasticly in any way, btw, I'm sincerely happy that there is someone who realizes why I'm moaning about the changes since one week.)
The changes are good at the first look, but their unwanted "side effects" get bigger and bigger the more you look at them.
free speech not allowed here |
var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.12.11 22:59:00 -
[76]
true ana i agree thier. and you say hybrids stink ? with just the 250mm compressed coil guns on my bb i get 160 to 180 perfect hits and most times damage over 88 when i had my bs out my 425 compressed were hitting at well over 240 and perfect hits at well over 350. but it depends on what your skills are and more than that what mods you use.
wolf
talk is cheap the cost of action is enormus
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:03:00 -
[77]
Don't forget - if the campers have their big-hitters outside the 20km no-warp zone with some cheap-o but very fast frigates inside the 20km no-warp zone to catch solo-pilots, any blockade-busting force will jump in...and find the big-hitters have warped away and the cheapo frigates have used their insane speed to get to jump-in range of the gate and gone before the ships can even finish lock/and or do anything to kill/stop them.
The changes have done NOTHING to remedy the current situation - you'll still only get to fight gate campers if you deliberately keep their numbers advantageous enough so that they'll actually hang around for a fight.
Considering the power of webifiers and the complete nerfing of MWD's (needed but WAY overdone), anyone stupid enough to jump to a system and fight while outnumbered deserves to get the ganking they WILL get.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:07:00 -
[78]
Quote:
As for the rest of your "answers", Jash, I will acknowledge them when they are something else than variations of *babababa - I don't hear you* and actually answers to my points.
If that's the way you want to act, Ana, fine.
But the sum of your arguments is:
Leave Microwarp Drive alone because I use it to get in range for blasters. I don't care if anyone else uses them to break the combat mechanics and will pretend there are no other options.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
|
Posted - 2003.12.11 23:10:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 11/12/2003 23:11:19
Quote:
Quote:
As for the rest of your "answers", Jash, I will acknowledge them when they are something else than variations of *babababa - I don't hear you* and actually answers to my points.
If that's the way you want to act, Ana, fine.
But the sum of your arguments is:
Leave Microwarp Drive alone because I use it to get in range for blasters. I don't care if anyone else uses them to break the combat mechanics and will pretend there are no other options.
Jash,
MWD's would have been fine if limited to one-per ship (including one afterburners), and given a max speed boost of 550% with cap needs, say, doubled.
Combine this with a reduction in invul time when warping in and the "invisibility" thing when jumping plus the use of frigates insane locktimes and you'd have a decent combat situation and a tolerable chance of escape.
Edit: Make the no-warp zone 30km and adjust the spawn point accordingly, too.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:15:00 -
[80]
It's *great*, isn't it?
What are the promising features of the current changes?
- jumpin camping get's you now *every*single*ship* (exept perhaps specialized frigate outfits - depends how fast your webbing frigs are)
- shortrange combat is *dead*
- travelling times increased by 100-300%
- griffins/virgils used as webbing/scramble ships instead BBs or scorps
- BSs are not anymore faster than frigs
You know, ATM I'm pretty content watching the catastrophe happening, using the flaming forums afterwards to power a steam turbine and tell everyone smugly "I told you so" after the emergancy patch 1-2 months later.
free speech not allowed here |
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:19:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Leave Microwarp Drive alone because I use it to get in range for blasters. I don't care if anyone else uses them to break the combat mechanics and will pretend there are no other options.
Have I ever said "leave them as they are on TQ"?
No, I said that "the changes on Chaos make them useable". That isot the same thing.
In fact, before the changes from 900% to 450% they were OK on chaos, perhaps a little too capheavy (600 instead of 720 perhaps?), but still manageable.
So, in two words, Jash: Stuff it.
free speech not allowed here |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:19:00 -
[82]
Quote:
Quote:
As for the rest of your "answers", Jash, I will acknowledge them when they are something else than variations of *babababa - I don't hear you* and actually answers to my points.
If that's the way you want to act, Ana, fine.
But the sum of your arguments is:
Leave Microwarp Drive alone because I use it to get in range for blasters. I don't care if anyone else uses them to break the combat mechanics and will pretend there are no other options.
The problem is, Jash, the fact that i and the rest of close range monkeys out there are going to have an unecessarily harder time using a tactic which is already hard and difficult to use in order to make PvP harder to avoid for people who didn't want to fight in the first place.
Now i know that in such cases the majority gets it's way and that is always the best for society.... but still wether i accept it or not i don't have to agree.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:27:00 -
[83]
Quote:
The problem is, Jash, the fact that i and the rest of close range monkeys out there are going to have an unecessarily harder time using a tactic which is already hard and difficult to use in order to make PvP harder to avoid for people who didn't want to fight in the first place.
Now i know that in such cases the majority gets it's way and that is always the best for society.... but still wether i accept it or not i don't have to agree.
In fact, which annoys me most is that there IS/WAS a way to make both sides happy.
The "old new" 900% MWD on chaos was more or less OK. But there was still the problem with people using multiple MWDs to flee.
But instead of limiting the MWD use of one/ship - which would pretty much solve the problem - TomB reduced the MWD speed to 450%, so you would get still catchable speed with 2 MWDs.
His explanation for not limiting fit's was hat he don't want to limit people how to fit their ships, since it reduces possible outfits/diversity.
Not limiting my ass (pardon my french). That way he's removing 33% of all guns from combat.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:35:00 -
[84]
Quote:
Don't forget - if the campers have their big-hitters outside the 20km no-warp zone with some cheap-o but very fast frigates inside the 20km no-warp zone to catch solo-pilots, any blockade-busting force will jump in...and find the big-hitters have warped away and the cheapo frigates have used their insane speed to get to jump-in range of the gate and gone before the ships can even finish lock/and or do anything to kill/stop them.
The changes have done NOTHING to remedy the current situation - you'll still only get to fight gate campers if you deliberately keep their numbers advantageous enough so that they'll actually hang around for a fight.
Considering the power of webifiers and the complete nerfing of MWD's (needed but WAY overdone), anyone stupid enough to jump to a system and fight while outnumbered deserves to get the ganking they WILL get.
Defenders and ambushers always have the advantage of having picked the grounds on which the battle will be fought. That's part of the nature of combat. It's impossible to get around that. The devs did give something to offset the advantage somewhat by allowing people to scope out the lay of the land with whatever invisibility remains when jumping in.
* Makes an odd motion with his hand and says: These are not the changes you are looking for *
You cannot force a man to fight for anything except for 2 things:
1) His home
2) Something he cares about
We have no homes. I might choose to stay behind to cover my friends or my corp members' escape, but the key words are "choose" and "escape". Until something drastic is implemented, and I worry significantly that Shiva will not be it unless the player owned structures can be destroyed, nobody will ever be able to force a fight.
And it gets harder when fighting pirates because they generally have no home. Just places where they keep biomass
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:45:00 -
[85]
Oh, it was pretty much even before the warp scramble zones around the gates.
Because then you needed ships to scramble targets. If the camping party was deciding to do this by using frigs closeby and ganking ships at a distance 1-2 caracals could seriously spoil their day. Jumpin, fire fof cruises at the srambling firgs, warpout after it explodes and before the BS get a lock.
Not a big loss for the pirates, but it will clear the gate for some indys till the pirates get a scrambling backup.
Or use some cruiser or BS escorts for the jamming frigs - which, in turn, could be a target for hunters.
free speech not allowed here |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.12.11 23:50:00 -
[86]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As for the rest of your "answers", Jash, I will acknowledge them when they are something else than variations of *babababa - I don't hear you* and actually answers to my points.
If that's the way you want to act, Ana, fine.
But the sum of your arguments is:
Leave Microwarp Drive alone because I use it to get in range for blasters. I don't care if anyone else uses them to break the combat mechanics and will pretend there are no other options.
The problem is, Jash, the fact that i and the rest of close range monkeys out there are going to have an unecessarily harder time using a tactic which is already hard and difficult to use in order to make PvP harder to avoid for people who didn't want to fight in the first place.
Now i know that in such cases the majority gets it's way and that is always the best for society.... but still wether i accept it or not i don't have to agree.
True enough. JIP camping complaints forced a half solution for PvP which will negatively affect piracy (and I'm pretty sure will cause worse side effects than even the travel issues). Speed bunny complaints forced half a solution for PvP. There are alternatives though.
Maybe when the devs have had a chance to breakdown and sob in relief after Castor gets deployed Monday we can bug them about gang warp in formation and warp in coordinate relaying. Expecting a group of frigates or cruisers to drain the cap on a Scorpion set to shield tank is a bit ridiculous and really takes a battleship's capacitor to be feasible. So I have some interest in short range weapons as well.
No point being at 11km and not shoot people too.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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