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The Ratfink
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:04:00 -
[31]
If you see anything like this again
a wizard did it
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My Pants
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:36:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Firecrak
worth mentioning in the anals of time
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Conclusion:
EVE would be a "better"(TM) place with the following:
1. Symmetrical ships OR well thoughtout engine placement on unsymmetrical ships
In space there is absolutely no reason for symmetrical ships, symmetry is to some people pleasing to the eye but there is no reason to strive for symmetry for symmetries own sake.
As for the placement of engines... well not to be picky but the engine placement is irrelevant as its the force asserted on the surroundings that is important.
Naturally you are talking about exaust placements. Here I agree that at times I am rather amused at the placement, the Mammoth is an excellent example of a very odd ship. It is fairly symmetrical however all the exausts are placed at the stern of the ship making turning all but impossible.
Naturally however not knowing the exact nature of the propulsion system we cant really say what is needed.
Quote:
2. No more engine tracers once maximum velocity is reached. Negative traces when decelerating.
Again, as we dont know how the propulsion system on ships in the EvE universe works we cant really say wether or not exaust trails are needed at maximum velocity (wich by normal propulsion is very hard to accelerate to in space).
As for negative tracers... well if you are asking for traces forward ... well lets just say I question your education if you are asking for this, as for how you would depict negative tracers behind the ship... well Im hard pressed to see any reason for them to look any different from acceleration traces and as they would be placed similarilly I see no reason why CCP would put too much time on this.
Quote:
3. Collision dynamics that base the vessels mass and impact velocity into the deflection velocity to combat "shuttle-humping". Of you want to spend 100 million ISK making an ultra nimble 'Geddon to hump ships and keep them from jumping, all the power to you; physics is on your side.
Here I agree, if the game could account for tonnage and apply atleast a stab towards realistic effects of two ships bumping then I would be all for it.
Like you say, a shuttle slamming into a battleship at full throttle would not be able to make it bude much if at all.
Quote:
4. Smartbomb intensity based on distance from ship, with damage based on size of smartbomb installed vs. mass of the vessel.
Again we have a situation where our knowledge is of no help.
There is nothing available that even remotely can be said to be the predecessor of the smartbomb. True, explosives we have plenty of but one that damages everything except that wich is at ground zero is far beyond what we can even theorise on today.
In short, since we dont know what makes the smartbomb cause damage we cant really say why it causes full damage within its total range and not a scratch even so much as a cm outside off this range.
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Sensor Error
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.02.03 14:44:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dashi Kawasuki
Edited by: Dashi Kawasuki on 03/02/2007 08:01:28
scientifically correct, but after all... it's just a game 
Elite for example did implement Newton's axioms correctly, but imagine that acceleration in space would be physically correct in EVE. You would have BS going at thousands of km per second. It would be impossible to alter the ship's flight direction without a long negative acceleration phase 
I don't know if you ever played Pen&Paper RPGs, but there also was the always present fight between realism and fun. So perhaps it's better to bend the laws of physics, than to spoil the fun.
Not to mention BS slamming into the station at hundreds of km/s because they forgot to fire the retros... (slamming into a planet in FE2 was always fun!) It'd be like the good 'ol days of multi-mwd!
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:18:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
A lot of stuff everyone already knows
Yes, everyone already knows this. No, no-one cares. This model of spaceflight used in Eve is in no way unique, it has been around for decades. It makes for different gameplay than a Newtonian model. Live with it.
Your assumptions that the ships could not fly in a straight line or turn or whatever each one can't do because of the placement of the engines are just that; assumptions. We are not told how they fly, and even if their method of propulsion precluded some designs seen in the game, no-one would care.
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IBTL \o/
EVE is upside down!
WTZ+Slower Warp=Win |
Wibiq
Cloak and Daggers
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:34:00 -
[36]
Arthur C. Clarke formulated the following three "laws" of prediction:
1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Shamelessly stolen from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
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Xen Gin
The Dragoons
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:40:00 -
[37]
While the game doesnt contain the elements of RL physics, I still think the mass collisions should be implemented. Its way too stupid to have shuttles and pods knocking around BS's and Cruisers knocking around Titans.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.02.03 15:41:00 -
[38]
4. Any sufficiently explicable magic is indistinguishable from science.
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IBTL \o/
EVE is upside down!
WTZ+Slower Warp=Win |
Lyzander
Caldari
Mugen Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.03 17:36:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sakura Nihil
Dude, interceptors and nanophoons going at like 10-30 km/s?
I can understand your concerns, this game does violate a lot of physics  , but I'd take better game mechanics over realism personally.
Just thought I'd mention that Voyager 2, which was not by any means designed for speed, is leaving our solar system at 14 km/s.
Although the idea of something the size of a dominix going 10+km/s is silly (especially while still being navigable), simply reaching such a velocity isn't too extraordinary.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Blue Pixie
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
As a mechanical engineering student...
As a graduate of psychology, lighten up. 
I lol'ed, not at the state, but the fact you're a psychologist. 
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:32:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 03/02/2007 18:29:00
IĈm sorry but are the people saying "it's just a game" trying to imply it would not be vastly improved by getting rid of the ridiculous 'bumping' mechanic and the introduction of a proper collision/collision damage system?...
Hello??
Fix bumping already, it's lame...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Bryg Philomena
Green Lantern Corps
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:35:00 -
[42]
I claim that theory is null and void in the future..
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=465618 |
Scav Silver
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:53:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Scav Silver on 03/02/2007 18:52:23
Quote:
To be blunt, having a 1600000 kg shuttle bump into your 105000000 kg Dominix is equivalent to a Mini Coop rear-ending a Tiger Tank. This whole concept of distrupting warping and velocity gains of any vessel with a nimbler vessel is somewhat foolish. Even with proximity collision systems to override pod controls and "manuever" to the safest alignment to avoid collision, that little shuttle would still strike the mass 65.6 times larger than itself, and experience an impulse momentum away from it at 65.6 times the magnitude of which it exerted on the Dominix.
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
Quote:
In space there is absolutely no reason for symmetrical ships, symmetry is to some people pleasing to the eye but there is no reason to strive for symmetry for symmetries own sake.
True, there is no 'air drag' in space, pure vacuum..
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-=Baby Seal Killer=- |
Lyzander
Caldari
Mugen Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.03 18:57:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Scav Silver
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
No, mass remains constant; However, momentum can be calculated from the product of the mass and velocity.
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Nekuva
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Nekuva on 03/02/2007 18:59:06
Quote:
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
The faster one moves, the more massive one becomes, but this effect is negligable at the tame sub-warp speeds that our ships move at.
edit: i cant spell
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Reyahn Jarrs > if you can just randomly declar a war, that is unrestricted
Reyahn Jarrs > their needs to be a check and balance in place
Nekuva > there is. it's called guns. |
Scav Silver
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:07:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Lyzander
Originally by: Scav Silver
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
No, mass remains constant; However, momentum can be calculated from the product of the mass and velocity.
Well, all I wanted to say is that there's a diff between the mini doin' 120 km/h and doin' 500'000 km/h..
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-=Baby Seal Killer=- |
Lyzander
Caldari
Mugen Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.03 19:10:00 -
[47]
Yeah, you're absolutely right in that regard; I just intended to clarify the physics so that it was expressed correctly.
My apologies for being a bit blunt about it. ^^
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Zankoku
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.02.03 20:37:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Xen Gin
While the game doesnt contain the elements of RL physics, I still think the mass collisions should be implemented. Its way too stupid to have shuttles and pods knocking around BS's and Cruisers knocking around Titans.
Yep, I think that every time I pull up alongside a mining barge and the drones protecting it start knocking my Mammoth around!
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.03 21:18:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Scav Silver
Edited by: Scav Silver on 03/02/2007 18:52:23
Quote:
To be blunt, having a 1600000 kg shuttle bump into your 105000000 kg Dominix is equivalent to a Mini Coop rear-ending a Tiger Tank. This whole concept of distrupting warping and velocity gains of any vessel with a nimbler vessel is somewhat foolish. Even with proximity collision systems to override pod controls and "manuever" to the safest alignment to avoid collision, that little shuttle would still strike the mass 65.6 times larger than itself, and experience an impulse momentum away from it at 65.6 times the magnitude of which it exerted on the Dominix.
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
I believe what you mean is that as you approach the speed of light, you continue to gain momentum (m*v), but you can no longer go faster, making your velocity constant and your mass variable. You approach infinite mass as you attempt to approach light speed.
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Fierce Deity
Gallente
Hera Star
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Posted - 2007.02.03 22:20:00 -
[50]
gravity was perfect in eve. Then one day tomB was walking along with his coffee when graphity made it slip and spill all over his favorite pants and burn his leg. It was then that he ripped his pants off, and stormed over to his work station and nerfed gravity.
and thats why pirates ****ing hate gypse's, good question Derovius.
------FD------
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.04 00:44:00 -
[51]
Bump
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Sgt Blade
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.04 00:53:00 -
[52]
well if you want eve to be realistics i want my games like Call Of duty to be more realistic too.... i mean 1 i dont get to pick up medic packs to gerain my health... after gettin shot i would slowly lose hp as i bleed unless i spend 5 mins sitting there while a medic patches me up....
then not to mention that becuase of all the weopons fire and grenades goin off near me so often i would ahve lsot my hearing a little by the 5th level....
ohoh and dont forget about taht if i die i cant play the game again cuase im dead... obviously
Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5 |
Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Sgt Blade
well if you want eve to be realistics i want my games like Call Of duty to be more realistic too.... i mean 1 i dont get to pick up medic packs to gerain my health... after gettin shot i would slowly lose hp as i bleed unless i spend 5 mins sitting there while a medic patches me up....
then not to mention that becuase of all the weopons fire and grenades goin off near me so often i would ahve lsot my hearing a little by the 5th level....
ohoh and dont forget about taht if i die i cant play the game again cuase im dead... obviously
Didn't know this was the Call of Duty forums, now that I know I'll take my request elsewhere. 
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Culmen
Caldari
Gekidoku
Koroshiya Buntai
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:29:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Scav Silver
Originally by: Lyzander
Originally by: Scav Silver
Speed is always a factor.. If I remember correctly from my college days, the faster ya go to more heavier ya become..
No, mass remains constant; However, momentum can be calculated from the product of the mass and velocity.
Well, all I wanted to say is that there's a diff between the mini doin' 120 km/h and doin' 500'000 km/h..
you do realize that the speed of light is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h
so 500000km/h is just 0.0463% of the speed of light
so really your no where near approaching the speeds where relatavistic factors start mattering
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Why do i even need a sig? |
Nero Scuro
Caldari
Jejaikaro Corporation
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Posted - 2007.02.04 01:42:00 -
[55]
If I remember correctly, Independence War 2 had a pretty good excuse for space flight and not zipping around at many kilometers per second near space stations - overrides in the ships computers that stopped them from exceeding certain speeds that were activated when you warped to stations and gates and whatnot.
Kinda like EVE has only you not only had to approach things (warp to 15km equivalent) but you also had to be a certain distance from stations before you could warp off (15km to warp?).
Of course Independence War 2 let you override the override and still zip around far too fast near stations but I always assumed the same principle applied to EVE too. Ships have inbuilt prohibitors that stop the ships from going too fast and constantly colliding with things (think of the terrorist acts possible alone - flying frigates into POS at hundreds of km/s ).
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The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky... |
BoBoZoBo
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.04 03:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Edited by: Plutoinum on 03/02/2007 08:48:20
Eve is obviously more fiction than science. It's definitely not a space flight simulator.
The EVE universe is probably more interesting for sociologists and economists than for physicists. I see that as a plus, although I like physics.
Hear.. Hear.. as much as I appreciate the OPs position, this is a gaem and has OTHER real world beauties.
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Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9 |
Gzashon
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.02.04 05:40:00 -
[57]
Well, while we're on the topic, everything that occurs in space should be completely silent. With no atmosphere in space, there isn't anything to transmit vibrations as sound waves.
...but that would be awfully lame, wouldn't it? Imagine any space battle in any movie / TV show with no sound, it just wouldn't be the same.
However, the explosion graphics and the "wave" should definitely be spherical. I get the feeling that the circular pattern was done initially because it was less resource intensive.
As for acceleration, while you're absolutely correct i think combat (and even basic flight) would be nearly impossible if everyone could MWD themselves to light speed. We have issues w/ people going 10km/sec, what about flying around at, hell, even 10,000 km/sec, much less 186,000 or whatever it is.
It reminds me of a book, The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman...space combat occurring at near-light speeds and engagements between ships taking weeks as their computers basically attempted to out-guess each other with drones and missiles as they decelerated, while the human crews were stuffed into inertia shells to keep from being instantly crushed into goo.
How come i can talk in realtime to anyone, anywhere in the galaxy, but i can't check the market outside the region I'm in? How does my clone get instantly transferred from station to station? Am i the only person on my battleship, just me and a bunch of computers, or do i have a crew? How big? Does one of them have a Scottish accent?
I'll stop now.
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Bohoba
Caldari
Dragons United
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.02.04 06:38:00 -
[58]
LOL you need a break :)
but I wondered why if I warp and am not alined or moving my raven always does a spin 380 before it warps off :) now I know why :)
time for a tune up and get them engens balanced right
Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all |
Keorythe
Caldari
Terra Rosa Militia
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Posted - 2007.02.05 04:05:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Gzashon
Well, while we're on the topic, everything that occurs in space should be completely silent. With no atmosphere in space, there isn't anything to transmit vibrations as sound waves.
...but that would be awfully lame, wouldn't it? Imagine any space battle in any movie / TV show with no sound, it just wouldn't be the same.
However, the explosion graphics and the "wave" should definitely be spherical. I get the feeling that the circular pattern was done initially because it was less resource intensive.
As for acceleration, while you're absolutely correct i think combat (and even basic flight) would be nearly impossible if everyone could MWD themselves to light speed. We have issues w/ people going 10km/sec, what about flying around at, hell, even 10,000 km/sec, much less 186,000 or whatever it is.
It reminds me of a book, The Forever War, by Joe Haldeman...space combat occurring at near-light speeds and engagements between ships taking weeks as their computers basically attempted to out-guess each other with drones and missiles as they decelerated, while the human crews were stuffed into inertia shells to keep from being instantly crushed into goo.
How come i can talk in realtime to anyone, anywhere in the galaxy, but i can't check the market outside the region I'm in? How does my clone get instantly transferred from station to station? Am i the only person on my battleship, just me and a bunch of computers, or do i have a crew? How big? Does one of them have a Scottish accent?
I'll stop now.
Space IS silent in EvE. If you read the story about the early Jove/Caldari exchanges you would have known that the sound is created electronically because pod pilots didn't like the silence. This no doubt also applied to warping.
The circular pattern is actually something seen in real life today. Its called a shaped charge. While there is a small spherical explosion its nothing compared to the direction force the the charge is intended to create. But once again this is technology that we just dont understand.
MICRO warp drives (MWD) are tiny drives intended to give speed thats manageable. Like many things today we put govenors on times to make them manageable or to keep them from breaking down due to stress. Who's to say they dont do the same in EvE?
Faster than light communication has already had several articles written on the topic which explains why text only is exchanged. If you're smart you can figure out why only portraits are allowed too. As far as regional markets go... How much is a pack of cigarettes going for in China? Hard time finding that price? Ever stop to think that regional market information might not be transmitted across region lines due to some weird politics that isn't explained?
Clones are explained in the articles. Ship crews are explained somewhere else. Heck there was an old chart showing crew numbers for each shiptype.
Fact of the matter is that there is alot of information that CCP has release on all of this stuff. Unfortunately too few people actually research the question before they post a dumb question. Reading is actually useful for more than just flaming and hawt cyborz. Seriously
With great power comes great responsibility...and hawt cyborz! |
Nolin Riis
Gallente
Placid Reborn
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Posted - 2007.02.05 04:45:00 -
[60]
It's probably best to assume that our spaceships don't use Newtonian propulsion.
Never a threat, but always a thorn in the side. |
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