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Prant	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:03:00 - [1] I know about the thread that has been locked. I do not want to open up any discussions about investigations underway, or any particular corps, and I will be delighted if noone brings any of that up here again. The outcome of the particular case at present is immaterial except that what is right should be done and hopefully will be. But I have something I want to say as a player. CCP's handling so far has displayed the lack of transparency and responsiveness we have seen on many things, and has exposed the lack of a considered corporate policy on the subject of CCP personnel and their in-game activites. I am astounded and disappointed that CCP does not have a management that was able to anticipate that this would be an issue and deal with it. Seeing and thinking about this leaves me, and I suspect, many other players who are not entangled in the partisan (certain alliances) nature of this current debate with lessened longterm enthusiasm for playing Eve and lessened confidence in CCP. CCP management should have understood that long ago and should wake up and deal with it now. I understand that it is beneficial and enjoyable for CCP personnel - developers, GMs of course, and all the rest of their staff - to play Eve. But that creates the possibility for all sorts of conflicts of interest. Some of them may be clearly identified as abusive: meddling with the T2 BPO lottery, manipulating game mechanics, access to game data on players, etc. Some others are more difficult to monitor or control but nonetheless could give real or perceived advantages to the CCP insider and his ingame allies: inside knowledge of coming changes, detailed knowledge of algorithms and code, system/node relationships, etc. The woeful lack of detailed and unambiguous documentation of the game by CCP adds to the importance of some of these possible advantages. The single shard nature of the Eve universe, placing all western players in direct interaction and competition magnifies the possible impact of abuses or conflicts because they are not limited to a subset of the player base as would be the case on some other MMORPGs. The sheer technical complexity of the game, its heavy economic element and uncontrolled competitive model also magnify the potential impact of any problem that gives a competitive advantage to one player or group of players. And CCP - from your perspective it doesn't even matter if there are or are not conflicts of interest. If we the players perceive or fear that there, our interest and enthusiasm for the game is reduced. If your game develops a reputation for this, the interest of future potential players is reduced. You should care about this.
Prant	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:04:00 - [2] Here is what I believe you should do. Immediately. 1. Publish a written policy on the subject of ingame comportment for your personnel, covering GMs as well as all of your direct staff. Put it where we the players can see it and leave it there. 2. No GM or CCP player should ever receive a T2 BPO in the lottery. 3. CCP agents should not be in player corporations. Period. A CCP dev or GM in one player corporation is inevitably collaborating with some players and competing against others. The potential for a conflict of interest is too high. The temptation to provide teammates information is human and it is too much to expect anyone to be aware when he is crossing the gray line between sharing his expertise and sharing information that is not publicly available. 4. The policy should be clear and unambiguous about all the comportments that are permitted and that are not permitted for your employees when playing Eve. It should speak clearly to the question of using, and for example of trading on, knowledge about forthcoming changes, unpublished algorithms and tricks, etc. CCP agents would be free to play from the NPC corporations and it is perfectly possible to appreciate a great deal of the game from that perspective. Or they could form their own corporation of all CCP personnel - several corporations, if they fancy a bit of competition - and that corporation could be easily monitored to insure it stayed in an appropriate level and did not unduly dominate the game. The suggestion has been made that the CCP personnel play as the Jovians. The idea is fun, you can think about it. But don't put off fixing this problem to develop another release.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:10:00 - [3] I could say so much positive about the ways the devs are handling this case to counter your message, but the fact is: this thread have been posted a billion time, and we dont need another one! So please leave it???? Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I could say so much positive about the ways the devs are handling this case to counter your message, but the fact is: this thread have been posted a billion time, and we dont need another one! So please leave it???? Rather see a thread a day untill CCP comes up and says they have taken care of the problem and post a locked perm sticky. I pay them $30 a month...We the players are their bosses. We the Players NEED to know Ethics have been upheld, and the guilty punished. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:29:00 - [5] I don't care that CCP dev's, gm's, employees play the game, it is their vision and their game and I sure hope they play the game in alliances and corps like ours to see how it feels to lose expensive ships to lagfests. I do care that I play this game for almost 3 years and I'm still waiting for a tech 2 fix, it's eve's i-win button, the ability to sell for 15m something that I can build for 136k just cos someone got lucky. And I'm not even talking bout dev's giving free tech 2 bpo's to friends, that's to be proved, I'm talking that people win the lotery 5 times in a row and others play 3 years without luck, that isn't fair for something that you have to spend time trainning.
Larake	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:32:00 - [6] Petition it and wait in the queue like everyone else does for more important matters which doesn't involve a tin foil hat and the belief of fairies at the bottom of their garden.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:40:00 - [7] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/02/2007 13:40:18 If you think CCP does not have an internal policy on what employees are allowed to do within the game and what not then you're being an utter fool. What they have not done is publish it, which is quite normal. Publishing would have changed what exactly with regard to the current **e going on ? Nothing, exactly. The discussion regarding wether or not they should play has been done to death already, your opinion doesn't add anything to it, so no, there was in retrospect no need at all for this thread. Old blog Originally by:** Vriezuh Naz: John is a realist
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:51:00 - [8] what i like to know about all the threads about this.. wich non says anything about... What has been given out, and to wich corp.. i sugest all war dec that corp and hunt the persons in that specific corp.. I will make your wife/mann a widow.
Marquis Dean Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:51:00 - [9] If you don't like this game, stop playing. People kick up such a fuss over this, it's not like it's actually important in the grand scheme of things. Instead of panicking about the horror of dev misconduct, go to sites like Amnesty and whine about genuine injustice in the world. ------ ------ Originally by: Crag Heyder I'm not talking FPS here, it's SPF.
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:56:00 - [10] if no one says anything about who got what i think its just some evil rumour. and if that is the fact.. stop it. I will make your wife/mann a widow.
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:57:00 - [11] Don't be so naive It is a know fact, ecpecially for those who have been in 'certain alliance', that some things happen that must not perspirate to public knowledge. Honestly, I couldn't care less, but don't be silly, there's no such thing as 'fair' in a competitive game where devs are allowed to take side. Trust has been shattered, and, to be honest, it doesn't make any difference. We are having fun from time to time and nothing else matters. Some of us have a life, and we are clearly the winners. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.03 13:58:00 - [12] Originally by: Prant Here is what I believe you should do. Immediately. 1. Publish a written policy on the subject of ingame comportment for your personnel, covering GMs as well as all of your direct staff. Put it where we the players can see it and leave it there. 2. No GM or CCP player should ever receive a T2 BPO in the lottery. 3. CCP agents should not be in player corporations. Period. A CCP dev or GM in one player corporation is inevitably collaborating with some players and competing against others. The potential for a conflict of interest is too high. The temptation to provide teammates information is human and it is too much to expect anyone to be aware when he is crossing the gray line between sharing his expertise and sharing information that is not publicly available. 4. The policy should be clear and unambiguous about all the comportments that are permitted and that are not permitted for your employees when playing Eve. It should speak clearly to the question of using, and for example of trading on, knowledge about forthcoming changes, unpublished algorithms and tricks, etc. CCP agents would be free to play from the NPC corporations and it is perfectly possible to appreciate a great deal of the game from that perspective. Or they could form their own corporation of all CCP personnel - several corporations, if they fancy a bit of competition - and that corporation could be easily monitored to insure it stayed in an appropriate level and did not unduly dominate the game. The suggestion has been made that the CCP personnel play as the Jovians. The idea is fun, you can think about it. But don't put off fixing this problem to develop another release. Before this is locked (IBTL!), I might aswell have an opinion. 1. = good. I'd go for 1. A simple code of conduct would go a long way to stop the rumour mills. 2. = probably good. I know theres no ACTUAL reason for it, but it simply makes life so much easier. Just as, in real life, employees aren't allowed to take part in their company's competitions, so goes for CCP- you inevitably have rumours of cheating. Best just avoided. 3. I disagree. Not playing in a player corp is barely playing at all. I know some people like to play that way, but they miss out on so much of EVE its unbearable. While thats fine for players, I certainly don't want the devs only playing half a game. Big big disagree. 4. Same as 1., really. To summarise- 1, 2, and 4 are good. 3 is bad. -----------------------------------------------
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Roshan longshot Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I could say so much positive about the ways the devs are handling this case to counter your message, but the fact is: this thread have been posted a billion time, and we dont need another one! So please leave it???? Rather see a thread a day untill CCP comes up and says they have taken care of the problem and post a locked perm sticky. I pay them $30 a month...We the players are their bosses. We the Players NEED to know Ethics have been upheld, and the guilty punished. 1. You pay for access to the game! Thats it! Nothing more! 2. If you pay ordinary subscription you pay max 15 dollar! And if you have a year sub like me, only 10! 3. No matter how much you pay, CCP dont have to tell us jack about internal matters! That is a policy deemed by law and not just by the company! Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Originally by: Roshan longshot Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker I could say so much positive about the ways the devs are handling this case to counter your message, but the fact is: this thread have been posted a billion time, and we dont need another one! So please leave it???? Rather see a thread a day untill CCP comes up and says they have taken care of the problem and post a locked perm sticky. I pay them $30 a month...We the players are their bosses. We the Players NEED to know Ethics have been upheld, and the guilty punished. 1. You pay for access to the game! Thats it! Nothing more! 2. If you pay ordinary subscription you pay max 15 dollar! And if you have a year sub like me, only 10! 3. No matter how much you pay, CCP dont have to tell us jack about internal matters! That is a policy deemed by law and not just by the company! I pay for two accounts per month $30. We are the costumers of CCP ergo their bosses...No they dont have to tell us **, but ethicly they should, to keep their player base happy they should...And this policy you speak of? CCP policy for sure...but what law? If a incedent that effects game play, is discovered, and proven true or false, then yes they should say somthing about it. They should sticky a locked post, saying what was suspected of happening, and what actions were taken. By not doing so, we the players are infact being lied too. I work for a "Mega" corportation in RL...once a month we get a newsletter, so-so was accused of this....after investigation was completed, so-so was terminated....Yes this mega corp puts out the real names.... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate** or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Jelek Coro Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:48:00 - [15] No. It has been stated many times when precautions are in place. If you can't be bothered to read, tough.
Toshiro Khan Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Roshan longshot I pay for two accounts per month $30. We are the costumers of CCP ergo their bosses Customer!=Boss. Sorry, but you are very mistaken if you think because you pay CCP subs, it makes you their boss. You are a customer, nothing more nothing less, and all the arguing of I pay them money, therefore they must do what I say is nothing but foolish banter.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Prant 3. CCP agents should not be in player corporations. Period. A CCP dev or GM in one player corporation is inevitably collaborating with some players and competing against others. The potential for a conflict of interest is too high. The temptation to provide teammates information is human and it is too much to expect anyone to be aware when he is crossing the gray line between sharing his expertise and sharing information that is not publicly available. How can the dev's possibly understand the finer points of the game if they are excluded from player corps? Corp interface tab, sovreignity rules, do people love POS wars or hate them? How can this and countless other things be improved on? Your whole post is hopelessly naive.
Kharakan Amarr Magnificent Beavers Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.03 14:56:00 - [18] Originally by: Roshan longshot I pay for two accounts per month $30. We are the costumers of CCP ergo their bosses Quote: The Majority Stockholder Seems to believe that $15 a month buys you a seat on the board of directors. Doesn't realize that a hundred thousand other people are ponying up the same amount. Sample Quote: "I've e-mailed the developers several times telling them that Fire Paladins should have the axe-throwing skill. They haven't changed it, but they're still taking my money!." Punishment: Forced to work customer service for an online game company. this signature space is claimed in the name of eris, haha I got to him first. neeneer

Serathu Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.03 15:00:00 - [19] The discussion on these lines has been locked pending further information from kieron and I ask that you are patient until this time. May I remind you all that reopening such discussions is against the forum rules and could earn you a forum warning or ban. Please desist. Thank you! \| Forum Rules \| CAOD Rules \| CRC Website \| [email protected] \|


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