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HOW TO NERF NOS (and why it is neccessary)

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Fswd	Posted - 2007.02.03 23:57:00 - [31] Edited by: Fswd on 03/02/2007 23:53:45 Well though luck then... He has a faster ship than me...
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.04 00:03:00 - [32] why is this guy spamming (read opening a new topic) the forums with quotes from somebody else that has been posted in another topic be4? Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.02.04 01:25:00 - [33] /me looks at 28km+ warp disruptors and wonder why ceptor pilots like them and actually spend money on them to fill their role even better.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.04 02:07:00 - [34] Thanks for quoting me, although my post was more directed towards nano-inertial bs. I personally don't really know a good solution to NOS as it is right now. Roue has a pretty nice idea... I'll leave balancing the game to the masterminds :) N.F.F. Recruitment
Drek Grapper	Posted - 2007.02.04 02:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Drazin DawnTreader The only problem I have with NoS in its current state is that it 100% disables me from doing my job every time. No Interceptor can lock down a larger ship that uses a NoS. And We all know Interceptors dont exactly have the room to fit a Dampener in their tackle slots. Last Battleship I tackled I was spot on. Got in range clean, Locked him down and started targetting his drones. Unfortunetly he was damn good and wiped out my party. Turned his Heavy NoS on me and I was empty in the blink of an eye. But instead of warping away safely, -He- scrambled -Me- then Webbed me and proceeded to pound my little Inty into dust. Amazingly he gave up and let me go instead of continuing. The problem is, 1 round of his NoS with my Tackle gear active and my Inty all but turned off. I cant shoot, I can zoom, I can't web, I cant scramble, I cant armor repair... Nothing. Sure, NoS has its uses and is a great asset for many ships. Its just too powerful against ships smaller than itself. The NoS proposal by Roue is very cool and I like it alot. Better than that though... Make Signature radius Determine NoS amount. Small sig Radius... Small nos transfer. Large sig radius... Large nos transfer. You'd get 400 energy vs my Passive Drake. but only 25 vs my Inty. What about.. Large NOS > BS = 100% effective transfer ............> BC = 75% effective transfer ............> Cruiser = 50% effective transfer ............> Frig/Dest = 25% effective transfer ............> Inty = 15% effective transfer ...and so on. Sorry bout the dodgy spacing...it just would'nt line up. :) And stack nerf NOS on transfer effectiveness perhaps. Obviously it would apply to all ships so hence- Med NOS> Cruiser = 100%, Med NOS> Frigate = 75% etc etc. I posted this on the nano sticky but got no comments. It's simple and it seems fair. Anybody got a take on this? Drek
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.02.04 03:36:00 - [36] Originally by: DarkElf i personally think it's fine as it is. every race can use it. and it is a bs's only real defence against fast moving frig group. without heavy nos draining small ship quickly bs's then any bs would be owned by a group of frigs. stacking penalty on multiple nos would work pretty well tho in some cases. DE No it is not. Ever hear of an escort ship? There are more ship hulls desighned to wtfpwn frigs than god can shake a stick at.
Felinuszzz Caldari TunDraGon	Posted - 2007.02.04 05:17:00 - [37] Quote: Psrina Dorsai Wow a bunch of crybabys getting NOSed so they take it to the Forums. Only person here that made any sense was the guy that posted about Sensor Damps. There are plenty of ways to prevent being NOSed. U have to lock on the target to use the NOS .. DOH! just disrupt the targeting of the bigger ship> As far as frigates being owned by NOS Battleships, if you keep your sig radius low (NO MWD) and use some ECM modules why would you have a problem? And why is your Frigate gang trying to gank a battleship? If I was in a frigate and I didnt have some support ships with me im supposed to be owned.. Makes no sense that 3-4 Frigates can take down a battleship without heavy casualites. Anyone ever study real Naval warfare? Battleships owned the day. I joined EVE to get away from cry cry cry waa waaa the game is unfair 'Everquest/WOW' players. Now we got whine 'my frigate cant take down a battleship'... Guess what, if u want to kill a battleship, get a bigger ship or bigger blob, or skill train your way into something that can compete. Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. The last few ships I did lose, I lost due to greed+zerg in trying to get at the mods of someone I killed as their blob got closer (damn the broken wreck looting... a bug which I believe was resolved), not NOS I'm "whining" because I feel there is an imbalance and want to discuss possible ways to alleviate this imbalance, not because I got NOSsed, gave myself some little sympathy wrist cuts, applied eye-liner, and cried myself to sleep. I don't even fly frigs, "lol". "Skill your way into something that can compete" - This is such a bassackwards attitude, really. I've seen it before. I've seen blobs of 4 month old pilots in Battleships. It isn't pretty and it isn't Eve. What you're basically saying: "Warrior is the best class, everyone reroll as Warrior since nothing else can compete". This isn't the solution for Eve. Quote: The only problem I have with NoS in its current state is that it 100% disables me from doing my job every time. No Interceptor can lock down a larger ship that uses a NoS. And We all know Interceptors dont exactly have the room to fit a Dampener in their tackle slots. Last Battleship I tackled I was spot on. Got in range clean, Locked him down and started targetting his drones. Unfortunetly he was damn good and wiped out my party. Turned his Heavy NoS on me and I was empty in the blink of an eye. But instead of warping away safely, -He- scrambled -Me- then Webbed me and proceeded to pound my little Inty into dust. Amazingly he gave up and let me go instead of continuing. The problem is, 1 round of his NoS with my Tackle gear active and my Inty all but turned off. I cant shoot, I can zoom, I can't web, I cant scramble, I cant armor repair... Nothing. Sure, NoS has its uses and is a great asset for many ships. Its just too powerful against ships smaller than itself. An excellent anecdote. Interceptors and their kin have recently beem compromised in a severe way. ---------
K1K1R1K1 Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation	Posted - 2007.02.04 05:52:00 - [38] Nos is fine. 1.) Nanophoon you say? -NOS is not the problem, a BS going 4-8km/s is. 2.) BS's pwning Frigates. -Ok... so a 100+mill ship that requires 10x (or more)skills to fly is far suprior to a smaller ship. The problem being? Even w/out nos the frigate is toast so whats the issue here? 2.1)The frigate is stopped from using ewar? --Adapt, it's what eve's all about (hint: injector + timing, did someone say sensor damps... jamming?? ZOMG!!). 3.) Nos has no counters? -Injector... nuff said NOS, like every other module has pro's and cons. The pro is you take the enemy's reactor energy and put it in your own. The con is it has high fitting req's and reduces your dps (dramatically in most cases if you use more than 2). Nos is fine... _______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.04 10:19:00 - [39] Originally by: K1K1R1K1 2.) BS's pwning Frigates. -Ok... so a 100+mill ship that requires 10x (or more)skills to fly is far suprior to a smaller ship. The problem being? Even w/out nos the frigate is toast so whats the issue here? Thats rather hypocritic. The "OMG isk cost" argument is used by nanoBS people as well. An 7-8 km/s nanophoon needs around 1 bil in ship equipment and implants. So they are completely fine? Isk certainly can make a ship better, but it should be within limits. And skill investment? A t1 frigate will have serious problems killing a BS alone, even without nos. But what about a t2 frigate? It has about the same SP "cost" as a BS. Or, even better, a HAC, which needs a good deal more SPs than a BS and in most cases also costs a good deal more - is it the ultimate BS killing machine? If the BS has some heavy nosses, hell no. So, by your own argumentation nos is not fine, because it allows BSs to kill ships which a) cost more and b) need more SP.
Franconis	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:43:00 - [40] Nos can only kill what it can hit, like most weapons. Large guns and webs kill frigs pretty well too, are they overpowered? Do all large weapons need to be nerfed? Hellz no. Nos auto-hits you say? Try using something called E-War against a BS. I like to run in a gang of two T1 e-war cruisers, and we do take down BSes from time to time. Are E-War and cruisers overpowered because they can kill battleships? Hellz no. That being said, yes intys are vulnerable to being nosed and webbed. Get used to that and adjust your tactics accordingly. Nos is fine. Use cap injectors or E-War if you expect to be NOSed. It would be nice if we could hold more cap charges in our BSes tho.
LongJohn Scr0tum	Posted - 2007.02.04 11:47:00 - [41] Quote: i personally think it's fine as it is. every race can use it. and it is a bs's only real defence against fast moving frig group. without heavy nos draining small ship quickly bs's then any bs would be owned by a group of frigs. What about fitting small guns / smartbombs and a sensor booster? you cant have an all win setup for any ship , this is what makes eve such a good pvp game and also why nos does need a nerf. Personally i think if anything NOS should have a signature resolution.
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.04 12:41:00 - [42] nos is more than fine. nerf whiners -------- Don't like my post ? Mail me Flamedrone II belonging to Valandril perfectly strikes you, wrecking your topic.
K1K1R1K1 Team Machine Incorporated North Star Confederation	Posted - 2007.02.04 13:38:00 - [43] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: K1K1R1K1 2.) BS's pwning Frigates. -Ok... so a 100+mill ship that requires 10x (or more)skills to fly is far suprior to a smaller ship. The problem being? Even w/out nos the frigate is toast so whats the issue here? Thats rather hypocritic. The "OMG isk cost" argument is used by nanoBS people as well. An 7-8 km/s nanophoon needs around 1 bil in ship equipment and implants. So they are completely fine? Isk certainly can make a ship better, but it should be within limits. And skill investment? A t1 frigate will have serious problems killing a BS alone, even without nos. But what about a t2 frigate? It has about the same SP "cost" as a BS. Or, even better, a HAC, which needs a good deal more SPs than a BS and in most cases also costs a good deal more - is it the ultimate BS killing machine? If the BS has some heavy nosses, hell no. So, by your own argumentation nos is not fine, because it allows BSs to kill ships which a) cost more and b) need more SP. Alright, you've proven that the ISK cost of a ship doesn't determine it's effectiveness (free market ftw). In that case maybe something less clear cut, such as it's role and fitting abilities should determine what it's rank is? Which ever way you look at it a frigate isn't meant to be a threat to a BS except inderectly (ie: tackle, intel, and other ewar) or if it has superior numbers to offset the BS's tanking and DPS advantage (at which point nos makes little difference). As for requiring less skills to fly. Perhaps... to fly effectivly, let alone t2 fitted... far from. _______________________________________ Don't worry aboutit.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:18:00 - [44] What makes you think BSs are supposed to be the superior-vs-everything weapon plattform? The devs stated multiple times that they are "not supposed to be solo-pown-mobiles". In the end skills and money only give advantages, but do not result in absolutes like "ship x can never beat ship y".
Blue Azur	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:36:00 - [45] Dear NOS n00bs beferw you nerf NOS answer this question please . How the f**k do you kill a dreadnaught or how do you prevent a carrier from jumping if you're not using NOS/Neut BS ? Nos if fine the way it is if you whant to nerf something nerf the forums.
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:38:00 - [46] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 04/02/2007 14:34:52 The biggest problem is that CCP made Drones a main weapon instead of a secondary weapon. Highslots are normally used for DPS, but the DPS of drone boats comes from their drones. Thus, remove highslots from Drone boats. Phoon: 5-6 highslots Domi: 2-3 Highslots etc.. - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Zana Kito	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:39:00 - [47] Pretty much every weapon systems in Eve has a counter. Missiles? Counter with speed.. okay, so it isn't the greatest counter.. if only defenders werent so lame. All Gun? Tracking Disrupters make them all cry. Drones? Smartbombs. Also, if target is far away to rescoop, you can web the drones and blast them to bits. Not the perfect counters, but it works. ECM? Just 1 ECCM module now makes you almost invincible to ECM since it's been nerfed. Even if you aren't using it, ECM is crap. See the trend? Counters to any particular weapon system requires the use of a slot or re-focusing of dps. How to counter NOS? a) Use the gdamn cap boosters. Yeah that's right, you are going to need one mid slot to counter someone else giving up several of their high slots. b) Sensor Damps. Works like a charm. Use it instead of whining. c) Use ECM drones, they work really good. Anyhow.. Do people who use guns complaint every time someone uses tracking disrupters on them? So why do people insist there are no counters to NOS and cry on the forums everyday..
DarkElf Caldari DJ's Exotic Dancers Escorts	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:42:00 - [48] Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: DarkElf i personally think it's fine as it is. every race can use it. and it is a bs's only real defence against fast moving frig group. without heavy nos draining small ship quickly bs's then any bs would be owned by a group of frigs. stacking penalty on multiple nos would work pretty well tho in some cases. DE You only really need one or two nos for that. did you miss my point there? my point is the yes you only need 1 or 2 heavy nos for that which is how it should be. but i think there should be a stacking penanlty to stop ppl using a full rack of nos to drain multiple ships or 1 bs in very little time. the effect large nos has on frigs i think is fine. frigs should be able to be shut down quickly by a bs sacrificing a high slot or 2 without guns. DE
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.04 14:46:00 - [49] Exept a, b and c also work well very vs most which you listed, too. Get damaged by guns, missiles, drones? Use your cap booster to tank them till your charges run out. Getting jammed? Use your own dampeners, jammers or ecm drones to disable the target before it disables you. Als works fine vs missiles and turrets and in a more limited way with drones. See the trend? All other "agressive" actions have more counters.
Drazin DawnTreader	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:37:00 - [50] Originally by: K1K1R1K1 Nos is fine. 2.) BS's pwning Frigates. -Ok... so a 100+mill ship that requires 10x (or more)skills to fly is far suprior to a smaller ship. The problem being? Even w/out nos the frigate is toast so whats the issue here? 2.1)The frigate is stopped from using ewar? --Adapt, it's what eve's all about (hint: injector + timing, did someone say sensor damps... jamming?? ZOMG!!). 3.) Nos has no counters? -Injector... nuff said NOS, like every other module has pro's and cons. The pro is you take the enemy's reactor energy and put it in your own. The con is it has high fitting req's and reduces your dps (dramatically in most cases if you use more than 2). Nos is fine... Wrong - Ok... So I equip my Cap booster and Sensor dampener... Hmm... Where's my Scrambler gonna go? Aw shucks... Atleast I have a chance to survive some Heavy NoS though! Yay me! Maybe one of my squadmates can pack a Scrambler instead. I still get to fly my Inty, I can survive a NoS and someone else can do the tackling. Very well thought out balance system., Everyone should be happy now. -moron
Drazin DawnTreader	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:42:00 - [51] Originally by: Blue Azur Dear NOS n00bs beferw you nerf NOS answer this question please . How the f**k do you kill a dreadnaught or how do you prevent a carrier from jumping if you're not using NOS/Neut BS ? Nos if fine the way it is if you whant to nerf something nerf the forums. Capital ships would be unaffected by any NoS changes made according to Roue's Idea or followed up by mine. So there ya go.
Niestrenna	Posted - 2007.02.04 15:59:00 - [52] Originally by: K1K1R1K1 3.) Nos has no counters? -Injector... nuff said Something silly popped to my mind while reading this ... If injectors are considered a counter to NOS, and injectors use charges, why not make Nos ammo dependant?
Samirol OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.02.04 16:02:00 - [53] Originally by: Niestrenna Originally by: K1K1R1K1 3.) Nos has no counters? -Injector... nuff said Something silly popped to my mind while reading this ... If injectors are considered a counter to NOS, and injectors use charges, why not make Nos ammo dependant? because that is a stupid idea? honestly, there is nothing wrong with nos, move along people I buy insane sigs, mail me ingame.
Niestrenna	Posted - 2007.02.04 16:21:00 - [54] Ahhh, nothing wrong with NOS ... Let's say you're flying a ship that has typical minmatar hislot layout of 75% turrets with according bonus and 25% missiles ... You also happen to have T2 level missile skills ... You do the maths, and you realise that NOS is a much better option than missiles 90% of the time ... Tell me, honestly, when you've hislots left, do you think long before cramming NOS in the remaining slots? I don't complain too much about NOS disabling tacklers and such, it's the job of a skilled wolfpack to dance around and keep it in place ... Now what I don't like is the fact that a module is better to the point that it's not really worth it to fit anything else in most situations, and makes a lot of fights determined by who kills the enemy's cap faster ...
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.04 17:21:00 - [55] Originally by: K1K1R1K1 Nos is fine. 1.) Nanophoon you say? -NOS is not the problem, a BS going 4-8km/s is. No, that's not the problem, if a BS has to use cap charges ALL the time to go 4-8km/s, he can do it for maybe 10 min, after that he is dead in the water with no cap. The nos is EXACTLY the problem, because it allows him to go 8km/s until his target is dead without even TOUCHING cap charges. Get a clue. Quote: 2.) BS's pwning Frigates. -Ok... so a 100+mill ship that requires 10x (or more)skills to fly is far suprior to a smaller ship. The problem being? Even w/out nos the frigate is toast so whats the issue here? You're exactly contradicting yourself, you are saying without nos the frigate is toast anyway - which is fine. It can survive 10 seconds longer if it doesn't get nosed dry instantly, which I think is important. Quote: 2.1)The frigate is stopped from using ewar? --Adapt, it's what eve's all about (hint: injector + timing, did someone say sensor damps... jamming?? ZOMG!!). Frigate is sucked out of cap and can't do ANYTHING with activation of 1 module. BS have big drone bays to counter frigates, it shouldn't be "I ACTIVATE MY IWIN MODULE U DIE KK LOL" Quote: 3.) Nos has no counters? -Injector... nuff said Injector is not a counter to NOS, injected setups need injector to run their reps etc, because they choose to go for injecting cap rather than recharge/cap size. (Most pvp situations). Injector setups are just not hit AS hard by nos, but it's hardly a counter, it helps you live longer. You can't say NOS becomes useless with the use of injector - you still get cap from them, it just postpones the inevitable. Quote: NOS, like every other module has pro's and cons. The pro is you take the enemy's reactor energy and put it in your own. The con is it has high fitting req's and reduces your dps (dramatically in most cases if you use more than 2). Nos is fine... How does it reduce your DPS. I will argue, that a typhoon with 4 NOS and 4 siege launchers will kill his enemy faster than a typhoon with 4 ac's and 4 siege, all that while being able to tank better. DPS is irrelevant, it's just a number, when you nos someone so hard that their cap is completely dry and they can't tank at all + their hardeners shut off, your effective dps increases astronomically. But yeah - I guess you don't pvp. N.F.F. Recruitment
Sally Caldari R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.04 17:45:00 - [56] Originally by: Niestrenna Ahhh, nothing wrong with NOS ... L Now what I don't like is the fact that a module is better to the point that it's not really worth it to fit anything else in most situations, and makes a lot of fights determined by who kills the enemy's cap faster ... May be becouse fitting anything else is completely, and i mean COMPLETELY useless? What usefull DPS would add 2 cruise missiles on Tempest? Like 5-6%? THAT is the problem, not a mythical super-advantage of NOS. -- Stories: #1 --
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.04 18:05:00 - [57] Originally by: Sally Originally by: Niestrenna Ahhh, nothing wrong with NOS ... L Now what I don't like is the fact that a module is better to the point that it's not really worth it to fit anything else in most situations, and makes a lot of fights determined by who kills the enemy's cap faster ... May be becouse fitting anything else is completely, and i mean COMPLETELY useless? What usefull DPS would add 2 cruise missiles on Tempest? Like 5-6%? THAT is the problem, not a mythical super-advantage of NOS. Tempest 296 raw DPS - 6x 1400mm II Tempest 341 raw DPS (15.2% increase) - 6x 1400mm II and 2x Cruise II Tempest 470 raw DPS (63.0% increase) - 6x 1400mm II, 2x Cruise II, and 5 Valkyrie II Tempest 396 raw DPS - 6x 800mm II Tempest 431 raw DPS (08.8% increase) - 6x 800mm II and 2x Siege II - Tempest 560 raw DPS (41.4% increase) - 6x 800mm II, 2x Siege II, and 5x Valkyrie II Using EMP L in guns. So Artillaries benefit the most DPS wise, but autocannons are much more viable for use with missiles and drones on target DPS. All in all, drones have more impact on DPS by a wide margin. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Got Alliance? Contact me ingame for alliance creation services.
Hydrian Alante The Scope	Posted - 2007.02.04 18:15:00 - [58] That¦s a quite good idea. Amarr ships should get the most utility Slots. And after that they will get back to the line. with other ships. But I still think that Nos should get some Signature dependent stuff. A single Heavy Nos can kill almost everytjing smaller than a bs.
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.04 18:42:00 - [59] From what i see, ppl preffer to complain over thinking. U ask for counter, u got them listed: sensor dampeners, cap injectors, ecm, ecm burst, whatever. But you don't wanna fit any counter, u think "pff waste slot to counter nos, better nerf them". U tell me that cap injectors are ending ? hell yea but if u combine them with medium container, u stand pretty long if you got enought dps to kill. Now about wolf packs of frigs, if u got 5 frigs and 4 of you fit sensor dampeners - u kill anything on sight. But again, you don't wanna fit that coz why, right ? Better nerf nos... More playing/thinking, less whining. Almost forgot, if you bring nanoships to nos topics, get a clue. -------- Don't like my post ? Mail me Flamedrone II belonging to Valandril perfectly strikes you, wrecking your topic.
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.04 19:50:00 - [60] I am 100% fan of utility points. Make NOS, web, scram, injectors and maybe some other mod classes use them. Give battleships 5 - 7, cruisers 3 - 5 and frigs 2 - 3, ofc. depending on specific ship. Suicide is bad, hmkay? (clickety clickety)

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