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SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.14 08:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Okamoto Originally by: SFShootme Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: SFShootme oh... and i forgot to add that if the target is faster than 100m/s it won't deal full dmg either :) This is why target painters and webifiers exist. you are forgetting that we need those precious med-slots for our tank That is an intended game design. You give up tank for more damage. Just like most turret ships give up armor tank for damage mods. /Y Your forgetting that your damage mods are our ballistic controll systems. And T2 rail ammo for example is better than their t1 version without having to modify anything for it. What i would like to see is to let the sig radius, speed skills apply to torpedoes also. This should clear up alot of uselessness Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:10:00 - [32] Is there actually a point to Javelin Torps now? They have a slightly better explosion velocity last I looked and that's it. Is anyone able to come up with a role they could serve that isn't already served by their Tech II/Tech I counterparts? I've stopped using them since the nerf, they were overpowered before, yes, but now they are literally useless as far as I'm aware. All other torps are fine though, Rage have a role and perform it well, Tech I's still perform well too in their all-rounder role. The Javelin Torps however...
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:44:00 - [33] My suggestion is bringing up the jav damage back to where it whas. So just as much as normall bane torps to say. This would bring back some usefullness in them Tho shall give Life, for Life.
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:10:00 - [34] Originally by: SFShootme Originally by: Okamoto Originally by: SFShootme Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin Originally by: SFShootme oh... and i forgot to add that if the target is faster than 100m/s it won't deal full dmg either :) This is why target painters and webifiers exist. you are forgetting that we need those precious med-slots for our tank That is an intended game design. You give up tank for more damage. Just like most turret ships give up armor tank for damage mods. /Y Your forgetting that your damage mods are our ballistic controll systems. And T2 rail ammo for example is better than their t1 version without having to modify anything for it. What i would like to see is to let the sig radius, speed skills apply to torpedoes also. This should clear up alot of uselessness Tech II rail ammo better? Your joking right? They close range ammo is pointless. It fires at half range and has worse tracking. This means your target has to have nearly no transversal.
Nooey Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:11:00 - [35] Edited by: Nooey on 14/02/2007 12:08:51 If you want my opinion, they should be what they used to be, minus the godly damage. That is to say, the ammunition a Torp Raven uses when surrounded by things smaller than a Battleship. As it stands now, there's no reason you'd load Javelins over Normal Tech I Torpedos. Javelins should serve an Anti-BC/Cruiser role like they once did (Again, admittedly, they were too powerful in those days). I'd happily settle for a lot less damage than they used to do, just so long as they have a more useful and role-oriented explosion radius. Currently they have explosion velocity "advantages", but they're practically useless. The difference between a 250m/s and a 500m/s explosion velocity is honestly not enough to grant them their own unique role and justify the penalties of loading them into your launchers. Fundamentally, the point of my argument is that Javelins as they are right now are literally useless, they serve no role at all. From what I can see, CCP's prefence and ideal is for every ship and module to have at least some kind of role or purpose. Javelins seem to be lacking one entirely. Edit: This is a thread about Tech II Torpedo's and the role they serve/don't serve, that said, there's not much merit in bringing other races and other modules into the argument.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:52:00 - [36] Javalin torps are useful in very rare situations. The type of situations where the target is dead even if you had cruise lanchers anyway. For example, you set a trap for a battleship. It jumpes through the gate into a dictor bubble, and a rigged up Seige raven can spam jav torps at 200km as t1 torps simply wont be practical to travel the distances involved. And lets be honest - t1 cruise in t2 cruise launchers would be far better off anyway, since you can always switch to t2 cruise ammo to gun down interceptors, and t1 cruise gains from the varios skill/rig bonues to explosion velocity etc etc, so you are more versitile. Torps are now useless, and in the ago of nanoships - they cannot even hit BS's for more damage than cruise missiles. Torp lvl5 is now a waste for me. Dont get me wrong - in the past I got jumped by a 10 man gang of inty/af/frig and my jav torp raven ensured a good fight and a massacre for those involved. Volly then pop, rinse and repeat. Obviously that was a bit too powerful back then, and so many people complained that Jav torps got nerfed into oblivion. Little did these guys know, that now that torps are nerfed, people are using cruise which does far more damage on small targets than torps ever could! And on larger targets such as bs's, probebly around 100dps less, though I have not calculated the figures. I guess the easier fitting for using cruise means you could fit in a extra BCU to compensate for damage, but hey thats another story! A possible fix is to have those missile skills actually effect torps, so then they actually have a use now, because at the moment, torps are a tool of pve and not a serious pvp weapon anymore. --
Sancho Matar	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:00:00 - [37] javelin torp should be as efficent as HAM not less no more. This is the only way to get it balanced, they should give the option to a BS weapon to perform as a cruiser weapon against cruisers.
Frools Chaos Reborn	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:02:00 - [38] Originally by: Sancho Matar javelin torp should be as efficent as HAM not less no more. This is the only way to get it balanced, they should give the option to a BS weapon to perform as a cruiser weapon against cruisers. wtb: ammo that triples my megapulse's tracking
Sancho Matar	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:32:00 - [39] Originally by: Frools Originally by: Sancho Matar javelin torp should be as efficent as HAM not less no more. This is the only way to get it balanced, they should give the option to a BS weapon to perform as a cruiser weapon against cruisers. wtb: ammo that triples my megapulse's tracking why not if your damage is lowered to cruiser weapon ammount.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.15 07:51:00 - [40] Originally by: Nooey Edited by: Nooey on 14/02/2007 12:08:51 If you want my opinion, they should be what they used to be, minus the godly damage. That is to say, the ammunition a Torp Raven uses when surrounded by things smaller than a Battleship. As it stands now, there's no reason you'd load Javelins over Normal Tech I Torpedos. Javelins should serve an Anti-BC/Cruiser role like they once did (Again, admittedly, they were too powerful in those days). I'd happily settle for a lot less damage than they used to do, just so long as they have a more useful and role-oriented explosion radius. Currently they have explosion velocity "advantages", but they're practically useless. The difference between a 250m/s and a 500m/s explosion velocity is honestly not enough to grant them their own unique role and justify the penalties of loading them into your launchers. Fundamentally, the point of my argument is that Javelins as they are right now are literally useless, they serve no role at all. From what I can see, CCP's prefence and ideal is for every ship and module to have at least some kind of role or purpose. Javelins seem to be lacking one entirely. Edit: This is a thread about Tech II Torpedo's and the role they serve/don't serve, that said, there's not much merit in bringing other races and other modules into the argument. /signed! Tho shall give Life, for Life.
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.02.15 08:20:00 - [41] Originally by: Sancho Matar javelin torp should be as efficent as HAM not less no more. This is the only way to get it balanced, they should give the option to a BS weapon to perform as a cruiser weapon against cruisers. Torps eat BCs for dinner already. And try fitting some TP2s with your T2 torps and see what they can do sig nurfed
Dire Lonestar Caldari Global Isk Network Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.15 10:01:00 - [42] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1 I used the t2(jav) a lot, but i must admit there was something wrong with those, i popped cruiers and bc like there where mad of paper, i killed a deimos in one volley. So i agree with ccp that those things needed some kind of balancing. Hitting this for 950 damage isnt something that must be in the game. 3x estamel bcu ? With 3x dg bcus i did something like 826dmg on unhardened stuff. And it only hit gallente CS for full dmg, rest was reduced. However if retards were ramming you with mwd on, it had consequences. My best was 4 volleying bs(mining, no explo/kin hardener), 6 volleying dual rep astarte Hitting for 826 dmg with full skill and 3 dgu bcs? I hit for 757 dmg with T1 torps with torpedo skill 4 and warhead upgrade 4 with bcs T2... if spending weeks and money (DGU BCS are about 150 mln) to learn T2 torp, fit the launcher and use the t2 ammo to do 60-70 dmg more looks "fair", then I think I should reroll minnie -- Another one bites the dust!
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.15 13:42:00 - [43] Edited by: SFShootme on 15/02/2007 13:42:13 Edited by: SFShootme on 15/02/2007 13:38:22 Originally by: Dire Lonestar Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1 I used the t2(jav) a lot, but i must admit there was something wrong with those, i popped cruiers and bc like there where mad of paper, i killed a deimos in one volley. So i agree with ccp that those things needed some kind of balancing. Hitting this for 950 damage isnt something that must be in the game. 3x estamel bcu ? With 3x dg bcus i did something like 826dmg on unhardened stuff. And it only hit gallente CS for full dmg, rest was reduced. However if retards were ramming you with mwd on, it had consequences. My best was 4 volleying bs(mining, no explo/kin hardener), 6 volleying dual rep astarte Hitting for 826 dmg with full skill and 3 dgu bcs? I hit for 757 dmg with T1 torps with torpedo skill 4 and warhead upgrade 4 with bcs T2... if spending weeks and money (DGU BCS are about 150 mln) to learn T2 torp, fit the launcher and use the t2 ammo to do 60-70 dmg more looks "fair", then I think I should reroll minnie t2 torps don't even hit harder... Which seems to be the problem atm... Which makes them.... well, pretty useless Tho shall give Life, for Life.
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.02.15 15:01:00 - [44] yea i got bored after the first post so skipped the rest but in all fairness if you want to use something against small ships use missiles if you want to hit big ships use torps SINCE THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE FOR. Sorry had to get that point accross Torps: big slow moving things designed to blow big holes in big ships, not to usefull against small fast ships as they move out the way and also are not all that accurate Missiles: Small fast moving rockets designed to blow fast moving targets into lots of little bits not too good against big ships due to lacking in damage So what's the probelm with torps only being good against things like battleships?
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:15:00 - [45] Originally by: Gawain Hill yea i got bored after the first post so skipped the rest but in all fairness if you want to use something against small ships use missiles if you want to hit big ships use torps SINCE THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE FOR. Sorry had to get that point accross Torps: big slow moving things designed to blow big holes in big ships, not to usefull against small fast ships as they move out the way and also are not all that accurate Missiles: Small fast moving rockets designed to blow fast moving targets into lots of little bits not too good against big ships due to lacking in damage So what's the probelm with torps only being good against things like battleships? You've missed the point entirely. The discussion is regarding whether Javelin torps actually have a purpose now, not your opinion on why Cruise missiles do. Honestly, Rage torps are fine now, more than, even. One painter is enough to bring a battleship sig radius upto level, however Javelins are utterly useless - they fly really far and do less damage. Why? They're still not fast enough to justify even using torps at that kind of range, i understand the purpose of the changes was to put Javelins in the same position as long range gun ammo, but Missiles and Guns are not the same thing. They have their own physics, advantages and disadvantages, and should be treated as such. Even having them do the same damage as T1 torps, fly farther, faster, would be an improvement on what they are now - as it is, they're pointless. I still think they should do more damage to smaller targets than t1 torpedos do, though not as much as they once did, they should have the range bonus over t1, and they should have a velocity bonus over t1 - those two go hand in hand. Website / Recruiting
Wrayeth The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:22:00 - [46] What Yuki said. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
SFShootme The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Gawain Hill yea i got bored after the first post so skipped the rest but in all fairness if you want to use something against small ships use missiles if you want to hit big ships use torps SINCE THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE FOR. Sorry had to get that point accross Torps: big slow moving things designed to blow big holes in big ships, not to usefull against small fast ships as they move out the way and also are not all that accurate Missiles: Small fast moving rockets designed to blow fast moving targets into lots of little bits not too good against big ships due to lacking in damage So what's the probelm with torps only being good against things like battleships? Ah.... so why did they invent t2 torps then? Tho shall give Life, for Life.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:03:00 - [48] Edited by: LUKEC on 16/02/2007 14:00:33 Originally by: Dire Lonestar Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Gyro DuAquin1 I used the t2(jav) a lot, but i must admit there was something wrong with those, i popped cruiers and bc like there where mad of paper, i killed a deimos in one volley. So i agree with ccp that those things needed some kind of balancing. Hitting this for 950 damage isnt something that must be in the game. 3x estamel bcu ? With 3x dg bcus i did something like 826dmg on unhardened stuff. And it only hit gallente CS for full dmg, rest was reduced. However if retards were ramming you with mwd on, it had consequences. My best was 4 volleying bs(mining, no explo/kin hardener), 6 volleying dual rep astarte Hitting for 826 dmg with full skill and 3 dgu bcs? I hit for 757 dmg with T1 torps with torpedo skill 4 and warhead upgrade 4 with bcs T2... if spending weeks and money (DGU BCS are about 150 mln) to learn T2 torp, fit the launcher and use the t2 ammo to do 60-70 dmg more looks "fair", then I think I should reroll minnie Oh really... strange math here. Max skilled torps with t2 bcus and t1 ammo does 782 dmg with 3 t2 bcus. But perhaps because you use t1 can actually fit 4 bcus. T2 ammo doesn't solve anything btw. Wait it can actually hit rokh with 4 extenders for full dmg. Correction, webbed rokh. Oh wait perhaps he's talking about rage torps and just forget that those aren't javs. -------- .....
Rule2k Fate.	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:20:00 - [49] what a shame for raven pilots :(
SFShootme The Carebear Stare Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.20 12:06:00 - [50] let's try to get this to be discussed further Tho shall give Life, for Life.
SFShootme The Carebear Stare Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 11:50:00 - [51] any1? Tho shall give Life, for Life.
The Fates Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.03.01 12:17:00 - [52] Your T1 Torp: velocity: 1250 m/sec damage: 450 HP max flight time: 30 explosion velocity: 250 m/sec explosion radius: 400 m base range: 37,500 Your Long Range Torp: max velocity: 3750 m/sec damage: 380 HP max flight time: 12.5 maximum velocity penalty: 4% explosion velocity: 500 m/sec explosion radius: 400 m base range: 46,875 Your high damage Torp: max velocity: 1000 m/sec damage: 540 HP capacitor recharge rate bonus: 5% max flight time: 10 explosion velocity: 100 m/sec explosion radius: 600m base range: 10,000 Long Range Torps have the same explosion radius of T1 torps, which is the problem. Should be 300, and flight time of 15. As it is I can't see why you'd use them over a T1 torp (at 3x the cost, mind you) that has a higher base damage and the same explosion radius, unless the target was moving fast (relatively speaking) and was just outside of regular torp range. That situation is far too limited with these stats to be considered a role. For a fast moving target you should be using a different weapon anyway. The range on these should be increased at the very least to give them a real purpose. Originally by: Sun Tzu In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

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