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Skoomer
Bergmann Foundation
Bergmann Federation
32
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Posted - 2016.03.01 08:51:20 -
[61] - Quote
You can have all the SP in the world and still be **** if you dont know a thing the game mechanics so no |
Fal Dara
Rapid Withdrawal
125
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Posted - 2016.03.01 09:21:07 -
[62] - Quote
spend 2k for max character? is that all you think it was?
i believe, from even where my SP's stand (210m) it would cost me 13-14k worth of plex to get the max skills.
some one dropped over 20g's worth.
not 2k. |
Jaantrag
44
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Posted - 2016.03.01 09:30:01 -
[63] - Quote
win in eve .. maxing out ur sp in here only shows how far u are from actulay winning anything .. u might be on top of the scoreboards .. but what next ... nohting .. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
1100
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Posted - 2016.03.01 12:24:53 -
[64] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:so if WOW, or any other MMO let you pay money and get max level, with all the skills/etc.... that wouldnt be a problem for you?
Please quit videogames now. you are the cancer that is ruining my videogames.
They actually let you do so in WoW and many other MMOs. No, I don't see this as a problem, they were always "grind up to max level, then you will finally start playing the actual game".
I mean, I understand that some people need to unleash their inner clickfest beast and do something like that for a while, I myself do that too, but this option is still there (and if you go through it, you still get much needed practice at controlling your character properly). But when it comes to competitive side and you're sad that time spent doing things irrelevant to competition in question doesn't give you advantage, I don't know what to say.
I can only suggest you to pick up some good competitive game without any sort of levelling system (any fighting game or most of so-called "mobas" would do it) and get used to thought that the only way to "git gud" at certain thing is to do that very thing until you master it. This is not universal, but definitely helps to cope with certain possibilities that are present in EVE now.
And if you want to focus on EVE and make it reward you, it's time to start learning to make ISK instead of being entitled to advantages (that come from sources other than you being good at the task) just because you were subbed for a longer time.
Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
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Johnny Riko
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
103
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Posted - 2016.03.01 12:33:18 -
[65] - Quote
EVE has been P2W long before the skill trading update.
Anyone who tells you otherwise is a bit delusional, and is holding onto this profound idea that 'player skill' is everything.
Yes, if you are a complete idiot and have never ever attempted to play EVE before, then you will lose in a max SP character/bling ship to someone with more experience. But if you're not an imbecile, and have at least a basic understanding of game mechanics, with a minimal amount of experience in PVP, you will have a massive advantage. All of that is ignoring how much easier it is for someone with lots of cash to throw at the game to reship when they do have losses.
I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
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Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
108
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:22:55 -
[66] - Quote
The number of hilarious lossmails of week-ol dnoobs losing very expensive T2 ships and equipment show that EVE is P2Fail.
Twas ever thus with toons bought from the character bazarr, it's just more widespread now.
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Algarion Getz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
164
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:32:55 -
[67] - Quote
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:As the title say's.
Is EVE now officially P2W?
Why I ask this; you can now use skill injectors.
More to the point that someone, paid over $2k real money buying plex to sell for in game currency and then buying skill injectors to then become top skilled player.
So yes, I understand buying plex for in game currency has been around for a while as is using in game currency to buy plex time but now has it gone to far?
Does it even matter?
That someone playing ten years of hard core skill learning, to then be equalled by a paid player of same skill set from 1 day.
Yes experience counts for a lot but then the real question because; why have skill's now?
If you can rush game content in a lot of way's...
Has this diluted what CCP was?
Yes. The new target audience are now impatient 12 year old gamers. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3327
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:38:18 -
[68] - Quote
Nope, but is is now blatantly pay to get an advantage.
This is not a signature.
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Lina Sovereign
Astromechanica Maxima
Astromechanica Federatis
6
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:41:49 -
[69] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Nope, but is is now blatantly pay to get an advantage.
Exactly my thoughts |
Lianara Dayton
Society for Peace and Unity
30
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Posted - 2016.03.01 13:52:39 -
[70] - Quote
@OP: yes, for all intents and purposes, EVE is now pay-to-win.
Sure, you still need player skill and won't win by default just because you dropped lots of money on the game but it will definitely make it much easier to win if you can afford to bypass years of training. It's the same as in a game like WOW: sure you can still lose even if you're fully epic equipped and fighting against newbies but nobody except the CCP apologists in this thread will tell you that this isn't pay-to-win (and only "pay-for-huge-advantage" which is obviously so much better).
The people in this thread will tell you drivel about skill points not being important but those are just lies. Obviously CCP agrees that SP are important - otherwise they wouldn't have found it necessary to implement a "catch up" mechanic in the form of injectors, right? If SP were not important then they could have simply left things the way they were. And if SP were not important then people would also not be willing to pay horrendous sums for them either, right?
It takes a special form of double think (and probably a heft does of Monocle) to be able to overlook these facts and pretend that EVE didn't just take a huge step towards pay-to-win.
Lianara Dayton, Society for Peace and Unity
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Kamahl Daikun
Back To Basics.
Tactical Supremacy
72
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Posted - 2016.03.01 15:01:43 -
[71] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Nope, but is is now blatantly pay to get an advantage.
Whoever said it on the last page is absolutely right: People don't understand what P2W actually means.
The phrase isn't literal, you're not "paying to win the game" since it's not actually possible to win a game like this. Or any modern MMO, for that matter. On that note, MMOs are the biggest source of P2W games. For reference, I'll use one:
Neverwinter.
I played it and enjoyed it until the P2W concept got too ridiculous. What's so P2W about it? There's gear that you feed Refinement Items into. It levels the gear up and when it gets to a certain point, it evolves into its next stage. The amount of Refinement Points needed to get it to its final stage is ridiculous. However, Refinement Points are sold in the cash shop. You're paying to achieve something faster, thus giving you an advantage. That's P2W.
Similar to Eve, you could just manually train up the skill. Or you could just get a few Injectors and be done with it. The concept is the same: Reach a level faster to give you an advantage. Even in Neverwinter, having the gear (equivalent to SP) doesn't make you a beast. However, it does make you much more of a threat by default.
Like I said, I'd put my money on the 50m SP pilot over the 5m SP pilot any day.
And yes, this does qualify as P2W. |
MidnightWyvern
Night Theifs
193
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Posted - 2016.03.01 15:33:05 -
[72] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:Reaper infliction wrote:It's 1 thing to have all the skills as a new player but its another thing to know how they all work. Experience in the game should still win over the pay to win noob
thatonepersone wrote:Skill injectors are not P2W in the same way plex is not. Both are ways of getting something everybody can get faster. Pay to win would be if there was a ship that was better than all of the other ships of its class that you could only buy with real life money. so if WOW, or any other MMO let you pay money and get max level, with all the skills/etc.... that wouldnt be a problem for you? Please quit videogames now. you are the cancer that is ruining my videogames.
Pot calling the kettle black, much?
_#portDust514
Don't let interactions like this become only a memory.
(EVE alt> Sarayu Wyvern. Dust 514 alt> Mobius Wyvern.)
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1113
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Posted - 2016.03.01 15:58:19 -
[73] - Quote
you can buy SP, yet not the skill. |
Josef Djugashvilis
3328
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Posted - 2016.03.01 16:24:20 -
[74] - Quote
Kamahl Daikun wrote:Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Nope, but is is now blatantly pay to get an advantage. Whoever said it on the last page is absolutely right: People don't understand what P2W actually means. The phrase isn't literal, you're not "paying to win the game" since it's not actually possible to win a game like this. Or any modern MMO, for that matter. On that note, MMOs are the biggest source of P2W games. For reference, I'll use one: Neverwinter. I played it and enjoyed it until the P2W concept got too ridiculous. What's so P2W about it? There's gear that you feed Refinement Items into. It levels the gear up and when it gets to a certain point, it evolves into its next stage. The amount of Refinement Points needed to get it to its final stage is ridiculous. However, Refinement Points are sold in the cash shop. You're paying to achieve something faster, thus giving you an advantage. That's P2W. Similar to Eve, you could just manually train up the skill. Or you could just get a few Injectors and be done with it. The concept is the same: Reach a level faster to give you an advantage. Even in Neverwinter, having the gear (equivalent to SP) doesn't make you a beast. However, it does make you much more of a threat by default. Like I said, I'd put my money on the 50m SP pilot over the 5m SP pilot any day. And yes, this does qualify as P2W.
This is Eve Online, those who approve of cash for skills will berate you for using the term - P2W, so it is better to use the term - cash for skills, as even the pedants cannot argue with the fact that skill injectors are cash for skills = cash for an in-game advantage.
However, having said that, I agree with your sentiment. 
This is not a signature.
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Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7386
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Posted - 2016.03.01 16:27:32 -
[75] - Quote
Skoomer wrote:You can have all the SP in the world and still be **** if you dont know a thing the game mechanics so no But this goes for all games. There's no game I know of that you can pay and literally just win. Every single one you still need to put what you've bought to good use and to do that you need to know the game mechanics and be remotely competent at the game.
P2W doesn't mean that you will win simply by paying, it means that by paying you can give yourself a significant advantage over a similarly experienced player that hasn't paid, which this obviously does.
That doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have in a game though.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Commander Spurty
Moosearmy
I N F A M O U S
1611
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Posted - 2016.03.01 16:41:06 -
[76] - Quote
When are CCP going to put a kabosh on n00b alts posting on EVE-O General Discussion?
N00b alts should only be able to post in a 'Rookie-help' channel.
Like write access to the Corp and Alliance channels.
There are good ships
And wood ships
And ships that sail the sea
But the best ships are
Spaceships
Built by CCP
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
17520
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Posted - 2016.03.01 17:30:34 -
[77] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Skoomer wrote:You can have all the SP in the world and still be **** if you dont know a thing the game mechanics so no But this goes for all games. There's no game I know of that you can pay and literally just win. Every single one you still need to put what you've bought to good use and to do that you need to know the game mechanics and be remotely competent at the game. P2W doesn't mean that you will win simply by paying, it means that by paying you can give yourself a significant advantage over a similarly experienced player that hasn't paid, which this obviously does. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have in a game though.
Then eve has been p2w by your definition since Inception, as GTC and character sales have always been allowed.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
2307
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Posted - 2016.03.01 18:42:56 -
[78] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Then eve has been p2w by your definition since Inception, as GTC and character sales have always been allowed.
Yes it was, and this is the definition used in other games. pay2win has nothing to do with actually winning, that would be completely ridiculous. It is always about purchasing advantages or removing a barrier.
Also think about this for a second:
Until this february, EVE had a passive skill system which unlike other MMOs did not require grinding. It could not be circumvented with money except if you purchased a whole other character. This is gone now.
Now we have a regular slow ticking paywall which you can grind away with farming ISK in game or by throwing money at it. That happened.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5786
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Posted - 2016.03.01 18:59:23 -
[79] - Quote
What skill injectors mean to me: there is no reason to save unallocated skillpoints anymore.
That's about it.
Move along. Nothing to see here. |
NickyYo
FrogCorp
427
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Posted - 2016.03.01 19:05:29 -
[80] - Quote
I don't get how it's now pay to win? Like you've always had the ability to buy a game time code to sell for isk, you've always had the ability to buy characters with isk.
I think the changes are good, especially for those who have busy lives like myself.
..
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Varro Octavius
Octavian Basilicus
4
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Posted - 2016.03.01 19:07:50 -
[81] - Quote
To OP.
Personal player skill cannot be bought, ever. Skill points only enable what part if the game you play and at what time. They can be gained with or without skill injectors. Pay to win is when an item in the cash shop is overpowered and is not available through in game means, only RMT.
Either way those skill points need to be payed for, a player could keep an account running for 10 years and be able to do anything but technically unless they've actually spent their own time playing and learning this game then their skill points don't account for much more than what ships they can fly.
#1 rule of EVE is there is always something else that can blap you. Am I wrong? |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7386
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Posted - 2016.03.01 19:46:38 -
[82] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Skoomer wrote:You can have all the SP in the world and still be **** if you dont know a thing the game mechanics so no But this goes for all games. There's no game I know of that you can pay and literally just win. Every single one you still need to put what you've bought to good use and to do that you need to know the game mechanics and be remotely competent at the game. P2W doesn't mean that you will win simply by paying, it means that by paying you can give yourself a significant advantage over a similarly experienced player that hasn't paid, which this obviously does. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have in a game though. Then eve has been p2w by your definition since Inception, as GTC and character sales have always been allowed. Pretty much, just the extent of that has changed. Just seems silly to me that people claim it's not P2W just because you still need to play the game properly, which is identical in every P2W game I can think of.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Santo Trafficante
Kira Inc.
FETID
43
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Posted - 2016.03.01 20:10:26 -
[83] - Quote
Skills wont save u from getting podded.
Kira is watching you.... |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11062
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Posted - 2016.03.01 20:43:54 -
[84] - Quote
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:
Just a player intrigued and want to hear your constructive thoughts at hand.
Sincerely
I see that you have failed to inject Forum Lurking to at least III, for if you had done so you would've seen that this waste of electrons is the 19083740929138249318685352097124831468024th 'earnest and constructive' discussion on SP trading. This brings nothing new to the table (unlike my post right here, as I've typed out a very long number and challenge you to say it), so shame on you, OP.
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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annoing
Chuck Norris Kick Ass Corp
18
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Posted - 2016.03.01 22:49:18 -
[85] - Quote
Terminal Insanity wrote:
so if WOW, or any other MMO let you pay money and get max level, with all the skills/etc.... that wouldnt be a problem for you?
Please quit videogames now. you are the cancer that is ruining my videogames.
Do you think you could be a bigger idiot if you tried just a little harder?
I've got underpants with more wit and personality that you.
Whether you think it or like it, he's got a valid point, from HIS point of view. He has the right to ask it. Also, who says the person that is buying the skills is someone without a clue in Eve? Maybe it's an Eve player who's been playing for years and has the real life cash to spend without the patience to train? Just because you don't agree means nothing. Actually, talking of nothing, that's exactly what you are... |
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
276
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Posted - 2016.03.01 23:18:25 -
[86] - Quote
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:
Is EVE now officially P2W?
No.
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:
Why I ask this; you can now use skill injectors.
More to the point that someone, paid over $2k real money buying plex to sell for in game currency and then buying skill injectors to then become top skilled player.
So yes, I understand buying plex for in game currency has been around for a while as is using in game currency to buy plex time but now has it gone to far?
Does it even matter?
No.
MadTrojan Sarain wrote:
That someone playing ten years of hard core skill learning, to then be equalled by a paid player of same skill set from 1 day.
No.
SP is not in any way equivalent to actually knowing how to do anything in EVE.
Yes, a pile of SP potentially unlocks lots of ships, modules, etc. But it doesn't teach the player how to use them. It doesn't teach the player anything at all about how to actually play the game.
Will it be abused by some players?
Yes. Mostly more experienced ones who know better, but they're going to exploit it...because this is EVE.
Will newer players fall into the trap of thinking they can spend some RL cash and buy themselves an instant "win" account on EVE? Yes, because there are plenty of idiots in the world and some of them have money to burn.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
276
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Posted - 2016.03.01 23:33:15 -
[87] - Quote
Lianara Dayton wrote:@OP: yes, for all intents and purposes, EVE is now pay-to-win. Sure, you still need player skill and won't win by default just because you dropped lots of money on the game but it will definitely make it much easier to win if you can afford to bypass years of training. It's the same as in a game like WOW: sure you can still lose even if you're fully epic equipped and fighting against people in greens and blues but nobody except the CCP apologists in this thread will attempt to split hairs and claim that this isn't pay-to-win (and, as they admit, only "pay-for-huge-advantage" ... which is obviously so much better). 
So now you can buy your way to a titan, bypassing years of waiting to do so...but you can't bypass the years of learning how the game works, learning the mechanics, learning how to fly that ship, learning strategy or tactics in a meaningful context...so no, it isn't "much easier to win..." it's much easier to lose. A cursory look at the various killboards will show you the evidence.
Lianara Dayton wrote:
The people in this thread will tell you some drivel about skill points not being important but those are just lies.
Skillpoints are *far less* important than actual experience of playing the game. They just unlock toys.
Lianara Dayton wrote:
Obviously CCP agrees with me that SP are very important - otherwise they wouldn't have found it necessary to implement a "catch up" mechanic in the form of injectors, right?
Really? You really think "CCP agrees with me?"
No monocle here. No bittervet. But you really need to get a grip.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Adunh Slavy
1639
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Posted - 2016.03.02 02:06:29 -
[88] - Quote
Is it pay to win ... yeah, more or less. But with out knowing how to survive in Eve, they won't win much, except tears and bills.
The real winners are the older players that know how to play, those who build, mine and blow stuff up.
Be nice to the visitors, their death makes Eve's inverted broken window work.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt
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Divine Entervention
Hunters Elite
Krab Republic
826
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Posted - 2016.03.02 02:19:23 -
[89] - Quote
Lots of times I send people paypal money to self-destruct their ships and pods.
#paying2win |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
834
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Posted - 2016.03.02 04:31:15 -
[90] - Quote
I guess depending on how you view the semantics of what is P2W, but then again that's literally like saying Eve was always P2W. SP distribution was always possible, there's just now another way to do just that, and perhaps one would say it's largely a much easier and simpler way to do so without all the extra quirks. Why everyone seems to be having such a hard time swallowing down the whole SP Injectors/Extractors this is beyond me. It's here, no way to change that. If that doesn't sit well with you, maybe it's time to try something else besides Eve. Eve will change constantly, and eventually it may loose its charm with me and I'll be leaving one day. This isn't it for me, though.
Fact of the matter is that SP is not the only deciding factor in gameplay; it's a tech gate at best with some residual improvements to how that very same tech works. Your own performance and quality of human skill and experience has a much bigger impact on any outcome in most cases. You still gotta drive the bus and a driver's license doesn't make you a professional driver (in fact, if you ever have seen how us Americans drive, you'd know that's especially true). If you don't agree with that sentiment and this really bothers you that much, why are you wasting YOUR time and energy barking at CCP on the forums and paying to pay a game you don't have any fun with anymore? Seriously, go find something you enjoy, even if Eve is no longer that enjoyable for you.
"Tomahawks?"
"----in' A, right?"
"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."
"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
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