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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2753
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Posted - 2016.03.15 11:20:20 -
[1] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Entosis feels very artificial as a game mechanic, but I realize there has been a lot of development and code and effort all around to bringing it into the game. I'd prefer it went away completely, but that's probably an unrealistic expectation.
I think we will see a citadel-like damage cap make an appearance in sov structures after it has been validated after release. Probably something like Asher's idea about ADM affecting EHP.
But it would be a shame to see guerilla tactics disappear entirely.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2759
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Posted - 2016.03.18 07:39:07 -
[2] - Quote
I feel quite conflicted on this topic. On the one hand, I think that people who want to hold sov should be able to do so, and that it should be difficult for them to be kicked, or harassed, out of their space.
On the other hand, I think that enormous conglomerations such as the Imperium are fundamentally bad for the game and that sov mechanics which assist in these being broken up are healthy. At least for the moment.
I guess that leads to a further question - would the Imperium form under the current sov mechanics?
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2759
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Posted - 2016.03.18 08:32:37 -
[3] - Quote
I think that the GÇ£but the sandboxGÇ¥ claims are often overdone. Limits on player behaviour are clearly required as had been demonstrated at both the micro and macro level. This is because a healthy game ecosystem relies upon conflict and therefore self-organising behaviour by players which reduces this too much must be constrained.
However, empire building is also a valid gameplay goal. I doubt that few would argue that a complete blue donut would be bad for the game so it is a matter of defining the optimal level of consolidation.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2759
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Posted - 2016.03.18 20:42:38 -
[4] - Quote
It seems that SMA is holding too much space for their (mostly PvE) members to defend. Ideally, they would be able to turtle up around their capital system with sov mechanics allowing systems to be meaningfully upgraded around a central constellation. But that should penalise the rest of the region.
Also, sov should be attractive enough, or necessary enough, that powerful entities reach the conclusion that they need it. I really dislike the current style of nomadic alliances freely attacking anyone around the map with few important assets at risk. It disincentives those who DO want to hold sov to buy cheap laughs for those who do not.
We might see a bit of a shift in this direction when supers need to be stored at citadels (when POS disappear) but that would only be a start.
We are still missing an answer to the fundamental question of why anyone should bother to hold sov.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2759
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Posted - 2016.03.18 21:14:20 -
[5] - Quote
Travis Uchonela wrote:Zappity wrote:It seems that SMA is holding too much space for their (mostly PvE) members to defend. Ideally, they would be able to turtle up around their capital system with sov mechanics allowing systems to be meaningfully upgraded around a central constellation. But that should penalise the rest of the region.
Also, sov should be attractive enough, or necessary enough, that powerful entities reach the conclusion that they need it. I really dislike the current style of nomadic alliances freely attacking anyone around the map with few important assets at risk. It disincentives those who DO want to hold sov to buy cheap laughs for those who do not.
We might see a bit of a shift in this direction when supers need to be stored at citadels (when POS disappear) but that would only be a start.
We are still missing an answer to the fundamental question of why anyone should bother to hold sov. Agreed that there needs to be more benefit to owning and holding sov, but nomadic alliances won't go anywhere. It's a lot of fun and most groups like PL that do it are wealthy enough on a player level that there aren't really mechanic changes that would force us to settle down in null. It's just not our thing.
That's a fair comment. I think that having valuable, destructible assets (citadels) regardless of sov ownership would probably tick the same box.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2759
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Posted - 2016.03.18 21:21:13 -
[6] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:It seems that SMA is holding too much space for their (mostly PvE) members to defend. If that were true, we'd have lost our space.
Or complaining noisily about it on the forum.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2774
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Posted - 2016.03.22 08:28:51 -
[7] - Quote
If it is so difficult to defend why not drop a few constellations and consolidate? If you can't reliably defend your space you are either holding too much or don't have the right mix of industrial, PvE and PvP pilots.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2774
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Posted - 2016.03.22 08:48:38 -
[8] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:If it is so difficult to defend why not drop a few constellations and consolidate? If you can't reliably defend your space you are either holding too much or don't have the right mix of industrial, PvE and PvP pilots. Because once again for the 700th time, it's not "difficult", otherwise we would no longer own the space, it's just boring. Even if we had just a couple of systems we'd still be under the same problem that firing a mining laser at a structure and chasing off people with no intention of taking the sov (and nothing actually committed to the fight) is what CCP class as content.
Not so. If you had high population density in a smaller number of constellations you would not struggle to discourage attacks.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2774
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Posted - 2016.03.22 09:44:46 -
[9] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:If it is so difficult to defend why not drop a few constellations and consolidate? If you can't reliably defend your space you are either holding too much or don't have the right mix of industrial, PvE and PvP pilots. Because once again for the 700th time, it's not "difficult", otherwise we would no longer own the space, it's just boring. Even if we had just a couple of systems we'd still be under the same problem that firing a mining laser at a structure and chasing off people with no intention of taking the sov (and nothing actually committed to the fight) is what CCP class as content. Not so. If you had high population density in a smaller number of constellations you would not struggle to discourage attacks. But we already don't struggle, hence us not losing our space. The problem once again is that the act of doing so is boring, meaning the best way to deal with sov is to simply not hold it. I'm really not sure what it is about basic English you are failing to grasp. As for density, even after our loss of members we're already pretty tightly packed. We're at like 87 people per system, whereas you look at groups like BOT (18/system) Soviet-Union (15/system) Shadow of xXDEATHXx (12/system) and wondered why they aren't considered to be spread too thin. At the end of the day system density has nothing to do with it, the system requires no commitment from the attacker, so the reality is that if a non-sov holder wants to force a sov holder to have to deal with constant times, they can without any worry of losing anything of value. That's bad design.
Well I did a tour of Fade last night looking for a fight. I saw four SMA pilots, total, outside of staging. It was ridiculously deserted.
But the point is that if you are seeking an GÇ£interestingGÇ¥ way to defend your space, which I interpret as a PvP-based mechanic, then the best way to do it is to consolidate and diversify your players to the point where you can easily and quickly form a strong defence fleet. This means that the fleet doesn't have to fly all the way across the region.
A truly local defence fleet means that you don't have to do any entosis at all because the attackers don't manage to get a foothold. You form a fleet and kill the intruders. Interesting.
But it seems to me what you actually want is to not have to defend an entire region (plus a couple of extra constellations) with an alliance which would, if left to their own devices, not last even a week.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2782
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Posted - 2016.03.29 09:28:18 -
[10] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Why does it not surprise me that you need a sippy cup?
You are being very nasty in this thread. Were I of similar ilk I would point out that CO2 just figured out how to reduce sov timers. :)
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2783
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Posted - 2016.03.29 11:06:10 -
[11] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Why does it not surprise me that you need a sippy cup? You are being very nasty in this thread. Were I of similar ilk I would point out that CO2 just figured out how to reduce sov timers. :) I wouldn't really call that nasty. And sure they have, by opting out of defending them by joining a different coalition. Do you seriously not see a problem with mechanics that are best played by avoiding playing with them?
Really? I thought the fact that they wanted to stay and defend their space was the reason they left. Unlike the other rapidly retreating alliances.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2784
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Posted - 2016.03.30 03:19:46 -
[12] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Zappity please lay off the ph koolaid.
Ooh, there's koolaid? Maybe it is on their forum. But I have avoided that so far because I am exposed to enough carcinogens at work.
I'm finding this whole thing fascinating regardless of the outcome. I think it is pretty unlikely that goons will be turfed out of Deklein but the lesser alliances are another matter.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2785
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Posted - 2016.03.30 21:18:11 -
[13] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I don't understand why nodes have to spawn all over a constellation. It would be more conducive to the large single-grid battles everyone enjoys if it was just that structure (Ihub or TCU) that needed X number of entosis miinutes applied to it.
If you require players travel all over a constellation, you can potentially have a standoffish node hacking race that actually isn't satisfying.
Get rid of whack-a-mole.
Spreading the fights out was a deliberate decision. There was acknowledgement from both players and devs that, while impressive for headlines, enormous fleet battles were often terrible to participate in.
It was a deliberate decision to move away from requiring a single point of conflict to a more distributed model.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2796
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Posted - 2016.04.04 04:31:24 -
[14] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Aiwha wrote:You've abandoned more than half your space... Certainly not more than half. The only space SMA has abandoned is space we had no intention of living in.
Probably time to update that statement after your SOTA.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2796
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Posted - 2016.04.04 07:27:27 -
[15] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Zappity wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Aiwha wrote:You've abandoned more than half your space... Certainly not more than half. The only space SMA has abandoned is space we had no intention of living in. Probably time to update that statement after your SOTA. Wait, so you're telling me situations change? Honestly I'm surprised! Let me ask you this. If you achieve what you want and we move to invulnerable NPC stations then continue to play exactly as we always have from the safety of NPC space, what are you going to do then? Because you won't have your inherent advantage and supposedly you don't want to be blue with 40,000 people forever, but this war won't end just because a few of us have to relocate. You guys are way ahead of yourselves patting yourselves on the back lol
I'm not patting myself on the back at all with that statement. One of the key tenets of this thread has been that the entosis war is annoying but not actually achieving anything because the space is being successfully defended. I'm just commenting that such is not the case.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2796
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Posted - 2016.04.04 11:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Except this isn't true, since all it takes is flying in and triggering timers forcing the defender to respond until the windows get wide enough that they can't stop them all. Lucas Kell wrote:stop them all Ah, there's your problem. You've overextended and can't defend all your space, so it gets taken from you.
I think itGÇÖs a bit more complicated than that. Even if they consolidated to a single null constellation I doubt theyGÇÖd be able to defend against the current opposition.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2800
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Posted - 2016.04.04 20:25:49 -
[17] - Quote
This thread has become confused because the situation has changed considerably since it started. The main premise at the beginning was that a powerful entity should not be subject to harassment by a weaker entity through sov mechanics (Horde persecuting SMA). The current situation is that the Imperium is now being attacked by a stronger entity (pretty much the rest of EVE).
Consolidating to a smaller footprint in order to more rapidly respond to light incursions would have worked well a few weeks ago. This would not work now because enough people are attacking that they would simply be overwhelmed regardless of the footprint.
I don't see any logical way past a mechanic whereby a group with superior strength can dominate a weaker one. This is pretty much the whole point of sov warfare - weaker groups can be expelled from their space.
Anything else would be an artificial block to the sandbox. It would be the equivalent of a mechanic which protected Providence from the Imperium incursion last year. The Imperium was stronger and could therefore do it. Now, the Imperium is weaker and cannot defend against the same being done to them.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2800
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Posted - 2016.04.04 20:28:40 -
[18] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:TLDR
ProviBloc 15K dudes 1 Region, successful defense vs 40K man coalition
CFC 40K dudes 8 Regions, abysmal failure vs 50K man coalition
Math isn't hard, 3-4 regions, leaning to the lesser side depending on the quality of you PVP core. Provi has proven with adequate numbers you can defend your space against a much larger foe.
This is somewhat revisionist. The Imperium could certainly have razed Provi to the ground had they chosen to. They were quite successful with the IHubs. They just chose not to.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2800
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Posted - 2016.04.04 20:31:30 -
[19] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:I agree, the situation has changed. But cut the crap about the imperium getting expelled for when you've actually managed to do it, will you? This war is far from over.
By this logic, the Imperium equals goonswarm. Because whilst you are still holding Deklein you are certainly not still holding Vale, Tribute, Fade etc. But I guess those weren't held by GSF so they don't count.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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Zappity
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
2801
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Posted - 2016.04.04 23:02:31 -
[20] - Quote
If this force was arrayed against the Imperium in Dominion sov, you would not be able to fight it.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
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