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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3683
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Posted - 2016.03.14 13:59:47 -
[1] - Quote
Ibutho Inkosi wrote: bored, juvenile players who just can't be bothered to play the deeper game offered by EVE's design. . Show us on the doll where the bad man touched you.
You're clearly so biased against this particular choice of Eve gameplay that your impression of it is irrelevant.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3683
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:11:33 -
[2] - Quote
Payne Dakara wrote:pirates don't like to fight they want an easy kill so if you try to fight them they just dock.
I love this myth, because it leads to people bringing a fleet after me from time to time.
Payne Dakara wrote:Add war deck corp with red standing and watch local, don't mine AFK and if you see them dock.
This always baffles me. Why? They're already wartargets. They'll show up in local with the WT tag.
Payne Dakara wrote:Watch opposing corp kill board and see if they are close to where you are, if you have standing use locator agents for same purpose.
This is pretty good advice, though delays in API refresh mean the intel can be old enough that they're already on you by the time you realize they killed something five jumps away.
I have a long list of things a corp could do to irritate us. I could make a war an utterly miserable experience for an active hunter. The trade hub/route campers wouldn't care. Without the watch list, they're pretty much all that's left.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3683
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:13:54 -
[3] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:Well, the entity that declares the war spends some money to create the war dec. Would only be fair for the other party to be able to pay the wardec fee (to the NPCs) to abort the war dec, don't you think?
Would also be just about the biggest ISK sink... pay for safety.
To avoid the "it's on, no it's not, it's on, no it's not" spam, CCP should change it so the entity that declares war has the option to pay the base fee + whatever extra amount they want, with the defenders having to match the total to cancel the wardec.
Even bigger ISK sink.
"Let's make it so the richest people in the game decide how the game gets played"
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3683
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:17:55 -
[4] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Actually something like locators no longer working on offline players would probably be enough. That's a lot of tedious copy/paste.
If the locator could tell me which of my contacts was online and then let me choose the one I want to locate, they'd be a lot more useful. You'd have to hit refresh on a locator every time you wanted to update online status. I'd be okay with that.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3683
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:22:24 -
[5] - Quote
Skarner Kondur wrote:The issue clearly was that CCP didn't hit them hard enough with the correct solution. Again as I've said above, 2 million or 50 million, the point is that it's a joke of a cost. One player can easily sustain that, barely playing at all. Not to mention running missions and profiting from war which easily pays for itself.
Nothing you said really counters the fact that increasing the cost of war declaration is a viable solution. Going by the logic of "they'll band together to mitigate costs" is faulty; until what point can they merge? When the entire player base is one corp?
Making wardecs a rich kids' game just means that we'll all pile into alliances under the rich kids and instead of just me wardeccing you, I'll be coming with the full force of an alliance at my back.
You sure you want that?
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3684
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:27:13 -
[6] - Quote
Thorian Baalnorn wrote: by all means roam through lowsec and null. Plenty of people to pvp with. And unlike those highsec carebears, you will find those in null will undock to pvp.
The last null roam I went on, five of us camped an Archon into a station until he could call in 20 people for backup.
Don't give me this "there's space bushido in null" line. They're just as risk averse out there as the average highsec player.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3684
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:30:44 -
[7] - Quote
Wanda Fayne wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: Show us on the doll where the bad man touched you. .
I cringe whenever I see this, I work with kids.  For what it's worth, I have my own experiences that hardened me against such humor. Still, apologies if it hit too close to home.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3684
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:34:41 -
[8] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Actually something like locators no longer working on offline players would probably be enough. That's a lot of tedious copy/paste. If the locator could tell me which of my contacts was online and then let me choose the one I want to locate, they'd be a lot more useful. You'd have to hit refresh on a locator every time you wanted to update online status. I'd be okay with that. Still better than chasing ghosts, point being though its both :effort: , not free or instant and actually gives more safety to you when your offline, with this I would have to see where you log to know where you are but wouldn't have to waste half my night just to find someone not playing eve at all. It's the bear minimum to diffuse the situation and actually quite a compromise on our part.
I do like the idea of locators being able to tell you the online status of multiple players, especially if it can be done off your contact list so you can find online players to run locates on. It removes the instant intel aspect of the watch list but keeps us doing what we do.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3685
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Posted - 2016.03.14 14:37:24 -
[9] - Quote
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:A half dozen static targets spread all over Empire space that the defender gets the warp to/bookmark locations too. Once engaged by the defender the notification goes out to the attacking corp/alliance and a bookmark is given to ALL aggressing members. You can defend your war dec or as soon as the defending objective is destroyed half the war dec fee goes into the defenders wallet and the wardec drops immediately. Half dozen is enough targets and separating them all over high sec space makes it that you either choose what to defend, defend them all with smaller numbers or let it drop. Constellation wide, like entosis, is too easy to defend by a centralized enemy, even region is too close to rapid force respond. A corp that decs a lot will and can be guerrilla warfared by quite a few corps that are smart and DESIRE to defend. The isk gain will again appeal to pvers. Youre now just doing a "mission" to end your war dec. By allowing the defenders to know the location BEFORE the attackers means they gain the advantage of defending. Timer style notifications means that the attacker now knows there are active targets in space and their exact location that are actively trying to stop the war dec. Who wins? You decide!! Off the top of my drunk head.... You all FLAME AWAY!!  As has been said, the current state of the corporate system allows defenders to opt out of the war entirely. This is just handing them another tool for dictating terms while the aggressors only have "shoot what you can get on grid with".
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3689
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Posted - 2016.03.14 18:58:46 -
[10] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Useful allies do exist and people do ally into wars for free. Please check your ignorance. Yeah. Your help in that matter was much appreciated.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3695
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Posted - 2016.03.15 15:26:42 -
[11] - Quote
Vic Jefferson wrote:Practice what you preach. The wardec mechanic needs to force some risk or commitment on part of the aggressor. So long as it also forces commitment on the defender as well.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3695
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Posted - 2016.03.15 15:29:34 -
[12] - Quote
Commander Spurty wrote:i say anyone that is involved in a wardec be allowed to anchor bubbles in highsec and drop Bombs.
No concord intervention is what you paid for.
No concord intervention is what you should get.
This "middle ground" is bad
If you're up for getting concorded every time your bomb does collateral damage, I say bring it on.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3699
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Posted - 2016.03.16 11:01:58 -
[13] - Quote
Here's what's happened to wardecs:
I've discovered a nest of bots. I reported them a week ago, but they continue to operate. I quietly dropped a wardec on one corp they were using and as soon as the war went live destroyed all three RNIs in the corp.
Within an hour the owner of the bots had disbanded the corp and made a new one. I responded by deccing every bot corp operating in the constellation (I've identified a number of them), including the new one. He's disbanded the new corp as well as another. I've got the capital to pursue this and inconvenience the bot owner for quite some time, but the fact that CCP continues to make it trivial for people to simply walk away from a war means that the mechanic needs to be improved on both sides.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3699
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Posted - 2016.03.16 13:52:52 -
[14] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Here's what's happened to wardecs:
I've discovered a nest of bots. I reported them a week ago, but they continue to operate. I quietly dropped a wardec on one corp they were using and as soon as the war went live destroyed all three RNIs in the corp.
Within an hour the owner of the bots had disbanded the corp and made a new one. I responded by deccing every bot corp operating in the constellation (I've identified a number of them), including the new one. He's disbanded the new corp as well as another. I've got the capital to pursue this and inconvenience the bot owner for quite some time, but the fact that CCP continues to make it trivial for people to simply walk away from a war means that the mechanic needs to be improved on both sides. If you think that CCP gave you wardec feature to hunt what it looks like Bot Corp you must be playing the wrong game.
No. I think CCP created the wardec mechanic to allow people to settle disputes for whatever reason without have a place they opt out of combat. The nature of this particular war is irrelevant; the point is that current corp mechanics allowed them to simply dissolve the corporation and create a new one instantly. Whether I'm a guy hunting bots or an industrialist looking to drive a competing corp out of a region, the ease with which people can simply walk away from a war without any change to their behavior is something that *must* be considered if we're going to talk about "fixing" wardecs.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3699
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Posted - 2016.03.16 14:05:04 -
[15] - Quote
Baden Luskan wrote:(god forbid these high-sec pirates fight someone with weapons on their ships).
Oh look. This again. First off, every person who loses a ship to war had the information available that they could be shot and who would do the shooting. You say they're making highsec into lowsec? Well in lowsec if someone putters around in a hauler and gets popped, what's your response? Why should doing the same during a war be any different?
Baden Luskan wrote:the way it is often times used is garbage.
I won't argue that. I have a dislike for gate camping and hub hugging. Unfortunately that's all the big mercs are left with, as hunting targets has been so heavily nerfed with the watchlist changed.
Baden Luskan wrote:add a multiplier to the cost of the war dec that is derived from the distance between two home stations.
As with a lot of proposed fixes to warfare, this is very one-sided in favor of defenders. Right now "home station" is a completely irrelevant attribute. Operating in or around a home system has no benefits and spending all your time 40 jumps away from that system carries no penalty.
Baden Luskan wrote:there should be a mechanic that penalizes alliance for having too many wars going on at once, and I don't mean monetarily. Any bureaucracy would notice an alliance is not just extremely blood-thirsty, but also using the writ of a war-dec to bypass CONCORD's laws. At the very least the bureaucracy would frown upon this group, and at the worst would banish them from their space. So, why not make it so. Have a stacking penalty timer like the one used for jump fatigue. If you declare too many war-decs too fast, the 4 factions of high sec, and even CONCORD, would start placing sanctions upon the alliance. From a warning to start all the way to faction ships at gates attacking the corp/alliance members and stations either refusing entry or firing upon these players.
You clearly haven't paid attention to how we react to mechanics like that. Our response is *always* to adapt and work around such limitations. That is easily circumvented and will have no impact on how the big merc alliances do business.
Baden Luskan wrote:if I were the person in charge of running the 4-4 station in Jita, I would consider bands of roaming pirates sitting outside my station as a severe problem. They would be reducing the generation of isk as their presence cuts into my taxes and possible business opportunities to make more taxes. The above mechanic would take this into account and apply consequences to the actions of players.
Let us wardec the NPC corps, and then maybe it would make sense to have the NPCs interact with us on that level. Until then the NPCs don't get to decide arbitrarily that we've done something "too much".
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3699
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Posted - 2016.03.16 16:01:42 -
[16] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote: its all about killboard padding and epeen! nothing more. You're fundamentally wrong and your ignorance of the basics invalidates everything else you might say.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3699
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Posted - 2016.03.16 16:29:12 -
[17] - Quote
Here's how to fix wars in a balanced way:
Start by fixing corporations. I know I keep saying this, but it's crucial if you want wardecs to suck less. Require a greater investment in creating a corporation and reward long-term membership. I'd even go so far as to penalize long-term avoidance of player corps. This is an MMO and dodging player interaction by sheltering in NPC corps is antithetical to the game.
Once we make it much more difficult to opt out of warfare entirely, wardecs can be addressed. What are the problems?
1) Defenders have no way to force an end to the war. If they can muster a substantial response to the aggressors, all it means is a week of camping the aggressors into stations to provide security for the rest of their corp. That makes for terrible gameplay. I think this would best be resolved by making changes to the corp mechanics that created objectives for warfare.
2) Perhaps wars could have specified win conditions. This would require a lot of effort on the part of CCP but could lead to a much more robust wardec system that is accessible and useful to far more than just mercenaries and hunters.
3) The current ally system needs tweaking. The dogpiling that can happen where multiple large merc alliances jump in for free just to add a few more targets to the list borders on the absurd. Raise the scaling costs for addtional allies, or maybe even give the aggressor the ability to bring allies into the war if the defender brings in too many (say the aggressor can have one less ally than the defender).
Things I don't consider a problem (even if I don't personally like them):
- Camping. Let's admit it, this is done everywhere in Eve. Roam low or null long enough and you'll encounter a gate camp. I find it to be lazy and boring, but unless you're going to campaign for an end to drag bubbles it's time to shut up about this.
- The cost of wardecs. Raising the price just prohibits younger corporations for making use of the system, relegating it to being purely the domain of the big mercs who are engaging in the very gameplay being complained about here.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
3700
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Posted - 2016.03.16 17:59:33 -
[18] - Quote
Major Trant wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Here's how to fix wars in a balanced way:
Start by fixing corporations. I know I keep saying this, but it's crucial if you want wardecs to suck less. Require a greater investment in creating a corporation and reward long-term membership. I'd even go so far as to penalize long-term avoidance of player corps. This is an MMO and dodging player interaction by sheltering in NPC corps is antithetical to the game... So in this sandbox game, you are saying we need some sort of big stick to force people to play a certain way? CCP's been beating my profession with a stick for years.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
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