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Serious question about lag.

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Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Momentum. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.14 19:44:00 - [31] Originally by: Doomed Predator Well if you don't like lag go to 0.0 or low sec.and stop whinning so much,geez every second thread is about whining. There is plenty of lag in 0.0 as you well know Also, pointing out an obvious flaw in the game that is ruining its appeal...is not whining imo Should you ever meet the dreaded lag death...dont you dare post about it
Evil Pixie Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.02.14 20:22:00 - [32] Time for a memory upgrade. 2 gigs will do you just fine. Minnie FTW!!!1
Wega Noir Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.15 01:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Doomed Predator Well if you don't like lag go to 0.0 or low sec.and stop whinning so much,geez every second thread is about whining. Uhh this whole thread is about 0.0 combat lag and has nothing to do with empire.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.15 02:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Evil Pixie Time for a memory upgrade. 2 gigs will do you just fine. My specs: AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 2gb Corsair XMS RAM Radeon X1950 Pro EVE runs on a second hard drive, independent from the OS On a fresh install of EVE, on a HD that was just defragged, with sound, effects and turret effects all turned off, the lag in some fleet battles is still completely unplayable. Module lag of 3-4 minutes, completely unresponsive interface and frequent short lock ups thanks to the fleet bug. This game can't handle fleet combat involving more than 150 people, it never could and I'm beginning to wonder if it ever will. It's not a hardware problem, it's software. TBH I think it's going to take a complete re-write of the server code to do it. I'm not going to pretend I know CCP's server code, but load balancing according to system seems like a bad way to deal with this problem. Works great in general, but once you get 300 people in one system about to fight it out that node is overwhelmed and falls apart.
Ben Booley Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.15 03:35:00 - [35] athlon 64 4200+ 2gb fast ddr2 ram SATA HDD nvidia 7900 gt been in 4 fleet fights, at minimum 100 people per side, including lots of drones / fighters. just have to turn effects off and i'm fine, even at 1600x1200. other than a tiny bit of lag there, but no module lag or anything, i just have 1 second freezes when a fleet-member in a large fleet uncloaks so gang bonuses can be recalculated.
Zybane	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:31:00 - [36] I don't think it has much to do with peoples PC's. This type of lag seems to be the server choking on trying to send and recieve large amounts of data from hundreds of clients at one time. Usually server upgrades have helped quite a bit with this type of bottleneck, but the previous hardware upgrades didn't seem to do much.
Pacala Gallente AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.15 16:54:00 - [37] There's something else too. If you think about it, EVE is one gigantic database. Your skills and assets all have to be tracked. The different systems with their moons, plantes, gates and asteroid belts are in there. Moon mineral types, asteroid ore content, complex NPC structures, etc. This huge database is hard enough by itself. Now let's add over 30,000 individuals. Assets, POSs, ammo, fuel, drones, scans, chats, market orders, contracts, clones, etc. All of these entries are dynamic too. How would you design a system that managed all that? Would you assign a server blade per star system? Would you make this server track asteroids, POSs and stations? What would happen if a 30-man gang started mining there? What if a 100-man fleet came in and started some POS takedowns? How would you scale up the hardware resources to accomodate this? Would you just buy a bigger server? Let's try another path, and assume that the entire world is virtual. We all know not all systems in EVE are populated. So it would be silly to give them a server if they're never used. So let's say that the entire world of EVE is software. Systems are dormant and initialize once players enter them. Resources are allocated dynamically where they are needed. A fleet battle occurs, then more and more resources are poured into that system. There has to be a cap though. Otherwise, a place like Jita would eat up a huge chunk of resources to the detriment of many other systems. In this example, how do you account for things that worked well enough with 10,000 people in the world but suck when there are three times that people logged in. What about when there'll be 50,000 people logged in? What about when the Chinese cluster will be merged in? Can you just rewrite the entire EVE database code? Eve is a continuously evolving environment. Lag used to be even worse. It got better, now as more people join up it's getting worse again. CCP makes money off of this game, and they'll make more money if EVE grows. They'll fix this, but it's not as simple as buying a bigger server, a bigger Internet pipe, or rewriting millions of lines of code.
Wega Noir Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.16 05:41:00 - [38] Exactly. That's why you need a three pronged approach to tackle this problem. You need better hardware, larger connectivity backbone and a rewrite or enhancements of the software/load balancing. My proposal would be this: quit working on all of these new features and focus 100% on fixing the lag. I am sure way more people would be happier if the lag was significantly reduced then to introduce some new features to the game over the coming months.
Anila's Delight	Posted - 2007.02.16 06:12:00 - [39] Edited by: Anila''s Delight on 16/02/2007 06:09:27 i run eve on 28.8k (gasp!!!) a 40 man fleet created tollerable lag for me. Just a tip, try cleaning your computer of spyware, trogans and all those other nastly things that piggyback on all that pr.0n What!? i cant type pr.0n now? Originally by: Altrex Conclusive proof ladies and gentlemen that WoW kills brain cells.
headseed Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 06:18:00 - [40] Originally by: Pacala There's something else too. If you think about it, EVE is one gigantic database. Your skills and assets all have to be tracked. The different systems with their moons, plantes, gates and asteroid belts are in there. Moon mineral types, asteroid ore content, complex NPC structures, etc. This huge database is hard enough by itself. Now let's add over 30,000 individuals. Assets, POSs, ammo, fuel, drones, scans, chats, market orders, contracts, clones, etc. All of these entries are dynamic too. How would you design a system that managed all that? Would you assign a server blade per star system? Would you make this server track asteroids, POSs and stations? What would happen if a 30-man gang started mining there? What if a 100-man fleet came in and started some POS takedowns? How would you scale up the hardware resources to accomodate this? Would you just buy a bigger server? Jita/busy empire hubs routinely handle 500+ people logged in, missioning, mining, trading, etc. That's all I have to say.
Rancorus	Posted - 2007.02.17 01:44:00 - [41] Ya, but there is a big difference between 500 people sitting in a station/mining in a system and 500 going at it guns a blazing.
Jadelith	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:00:00 - [42] Originally by: headseed Originally by: Pacala There's something else too. If you think about it, EVE is one gigantic database. Your skills and assets all have to be tracked. The different systems with their moons, plantes, gates and asteroid belts are in there. Moon mineral types, asteroid ore content, complex NPC structures, etc. This huge database is hard enough by itself. Now let's add over 30,000 individuals. Assets, POSs, ammo, fuel, drones, scans, chats, market orders, contracts, clones, etc. All of these entries are dynamic too. How would you design a system that managed all that? Would you assign a server blade per star system? Would you make this server track asteroids, POSs and stations? What would happen if a 30-man gang started mining there? What if a 100-man fleet came in and started some POS takedowns? How would you scale up the hardware resources to accomodate this? Would you just buy a bigger server? Jita/busy empire hubs routinely handle 500+ people logged in, missioning, mining, trading, etc. That's all I have to say. pop the cherry and try a fleet battle, with 500+ people at the same place (i.e. within a 200km radius). That is all I have to say.
Franky B Mentally Unstable Enterprises Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:02:00 - [43] CCP can throw all the hardware it wants at the lag, but in the end of the day, they've realised that the only way to combat the predicament they're in is through optimisation. It's come to a point where we've run out of land to build our roads and the only solution is to reduce the traffic. code optimisation and tweaking would probably be the biggest focus for the devs at the moment (they've even stated this :D).
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:08:00 - [44] Originally by: Xelios This game can't handle fleet combat involving more than 150 people, it never could and I'm beginning to wonder if it ever will. Untrue. BoB vs F-E, P3EN-E. Massive fleet battles with several hundred pilots per side, ~1 second lag. //Maya
Trilliam Blackthorn	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:26:00 - [45] Not that I'm a programmer...but as all the CPU makers are working towards building more and more cores (Intel recently stated they'll have an 80 core processor within 5 years - http://news.com.com/2100-1006_3-6119618.html ), I would think that most development would be headed towards making the system(s) multi-threaded (if that's even possible in Python). 80 core processors...solid-state hard-drives, and memory prices bottoming out....I think the next few years the only major bottlenecks will be the software and/or the connection speeds of clients (I would think dialup users are lagging the game as well).
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:27:00 - [46] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 17/02/2007 03:24:28 Trilliam, no, they get desynched. This is what that happens...the server keeps on making assumptions for them, and the client gets hopelessly confused. So they don't lag the server, they just do things like blow up "suddenly" (50% armour, on in warp and such) from the client's point of view, since the server's view on it MUST be the right one (or it'd be exploitable) //Maya
Rancideous	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:31:00 - [47] Has anyone at CCP considered outsourcing a 3rd party guru team/company to come in, take a look at your software and hardware and maybe come up with some ideas and solutions? Maybe someone from IBM or something that has experience with large databases and the problems Eve faces with lag. I know CCP might not want outsiders poking around and maybe don't want to spend the money but, wouldn't that be a better option in the end if the game came out working properly?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Wega Noir Why do people always bring up Jita and the other newb systems? I never go there and could care less about empire space. It's about losing ships in 0.0 engagements to massive lag and a client that acts like sh*t during said lag. I just don't understand why I continue to have two accounts and spend so much time to progress characters only to get super frustrated when it's time to fight and the server lag removes any ounce of fun. The kicker is that nothing has been done to fix it and appears nothing in the future will fix it. I would suggest that CCP drop everything they are doing and focus 100% energy on by far the longest and largest problem in this game; lag. Right now they keep adding new stuff to a laggy, unstable base that will eventually fall over like the leaning tower of Pisa if it weren't corrected. I guarantee Eve players would be much happier with a lag free game then getting worthless stuff like walking around in stations etc. It is very simple: as soon as lag is fixed so taht 100 ships in a fleet batte don't have lag, the fleets escalated to 100 for side, and lag return to the previous level. The problem is player generated: the fleet battle lovers escalate the fleet to the maximum lag they can bear and still enjoy something of the fight.
Convexing	Posted - 2007.02.18 07:12:00 - [49] The amount of players shouldn't dictate the amount of lag, especially when there are no player limits set.
Zybane	Posted - 2007.02.19 01:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Rancideous Has anyone at CCP considered outsourcing a 3rd party guru team/company to come in, take a look at your software and hardware and maybe come up with some ideas and solutions? Maybe someone from IBM or something that has experience with large databases and the problems Eve faces with lag. I know CCP might not want outsiders poking around and maybe don't want to spend the money but, wouldn't that be a better option in the end if the game came out working properly? That's a good idea. Has CCP even considered this?
Abbadon Karis Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.19 02:57:00 - [51] Originally by: Taedrin I suspect that the DX10 client will have several optimizations to the UI and graphics engine to try to put an end to a lot of client side lag... heh, funny won't happen DX10 is vista exclusive and most people wont touch that until the ealiest maybe Sp1, driver support and all being none existant When we hang the capatalists, they will sell us the ropes we use. -Josef Stalin
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:39:00 - [52] i think OP was refering to lag interm of fleet battle / node crash (hint at the millions other post on this) imo the technology to fix it is either non-existent or hard to impliment, but since the game was designed to make those engagements necessary I don't see they have any choice but to fix it. which they are... a year ago 50 ships would crash a node, if i remember correctly, they they did something magical to the servers and now 100+ ships dosnt kill the node instantly. oh and vista / dx10 only reduce graphic lag, which most of us turn down anyway. and im running vista right now, its better than XP i can tell you that, getting OS for free gives a person quite an objective view on things i think. -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it?

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