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Do Devs/CCP Truely understand their own market?

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SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 03:35:00 - [1] Edited by: SolApathy on 11/02/2007 03:35:09 Edited by: SolApathy on 11/02/2007 03:33:05 I know this comes at a difficult time but ive been considering this for a while, does ccp actually understand the theory of economics and commerce in their own market place, the game has dramtically changed from the beginning of eve and i think the market and its size has outgrown its self. i dont want to rabble on about recent ingame events which have definitely aided the current situation within market as more wealth was produced above that which ccp intended in their original spawn of BPOs not only that the ever falling mineral prices and rising inflation only leads me to believe that perhaps ccp doesnt truely understand their own market place anymore. at face value it appears rather than work on solving the inflation and mineral price issues ccp has taken a 'lets nerf em' atitude towards it and simply cut the supply slightly but not really solved the issue. my recommendations to ccp would be; firstly to introduce some form of import and exporting system into the market, where the price is above a capped value ie 20% than base (this would only apply to mins the building blocks of eve) an importer could clean up, so if the trit price was generally 3 isk a unit an importer could sell it at 2.2 (20% above base) and fill the demand, this would then lower the price of low ends, equally ccp could buy up high ends at say 30% below base but still higher than what the market price currently is, by doing this is would fill the pockets of miners/npc'ers however it would disrupt the level of high ends ingame causing the price to rise. ccp can then more easily manage the market and avoid radical prices such as is the case with Trit and Zyd currently Further more i have a number of ideas on how to curb inflation through the use of Isk sinks, which i would be happy to go into at a later date providing some interest is shown in this thread. edit: various errors etc, also if this is the case perhaps CCP could consider either educating their staff on economics or hiring an economist to suggest the best ways to keep the market stable Play with TNT and things explode!
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.11 03:42:00 - [2] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 11/02/2007 03:39:06 Actually ignore the dancing locks. but yes the market needs major work I am working on another post for some changes that need to be made Half Assed Rhymage
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 03:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Pellaeon DuGalle on 11/02/2007 03:53:15 Lemme put it this way. I don't know if CCP understands, and I quite frankly don't care. But I understand how markets work. Its what I do in real life. Finance + Economics in Uni etcetc Limited resources and unlimited wants: it is from this state that economics was born. And as far as a Laissez-faire market is concerned, the EVE market works PERFECTLY. Yes, disgustingly high T2 prices are supposed to happen. This is the whole point of supply and demand. Once you start putting market price caps in place, it is no longer a perfect market economy, and full market efficiency is not being utilized. Lets face it, no matter how much people complain, the market for T2 goods ALWAYS CLEARS. People will buy all the expensive T2 gear AT the outrageous prices. Therefore value (in isk) is created in the economy. If you limit the prices, then the same number of goods will still be sold, but at a lower price, thus reducing the value and hence economic productivity of EVE. The same number of people will have T2 gear (limited BPOs so limited supply), but the producers get less isk. Ceteris Paribus, the people of EVE as a whole will be less well off. The only time price ceilings are introduced is for social benefit reasons: limiting price on water, electricity, basic foodstuffs etc etc. T2 gear in EVE is a luxury. You don't need it. T1 gear used well will beat T2 gear stupidly used. Thus there is no reason on any grounds that any sort of market controls should be introduced. Ever. "Its the economy stupid!" - Bill Clinton edit: can't spell Latin. ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Krulla Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle Edited by: Pellaeon DuGalle on 11/02/2007 03:53:15 Lemme put it this way. I don't know if CCP understands, and I quite frankly don't care. But I understand how markets work. Its what I do in real life. Finance + Economics in Uni etcetc Limited resources and unlimited wants: it is from this state that economics was born. And as far as a Laissez-faire market is concerned, the EVE market works PERFECTLY. Yes, disgustingly high T2 prices are supposed to happen. This is the whole point of supply and demand. Once you start putting market price caps in place, it is no longer a perfect market economy, and full market efficiency is not being utilized. Lets face it, no matter how much people complain, the market for T2 goods ALWAYS CLEARS. People will buy all the expensive T2 gear AT the outrageous prices. Therefore value (in isk) is created in the economy. If you limit the prices, then the same number of goods will still be sold, but at a lower price, thus reducing the value and hence economic productivity of EVE. The same number of people will have T2 gear (limited BPOs so limited supply), but the producers get less isk. Ceteris Paribus, the people of EVE as a whole will be less well off. The only time price ceilings are introduced is for social benefit reasons: limiting price on water, electricity, basic foodstuffs etc etc. T2 gear in EVE is a luxury. You don't need it. T1 gear used well will beat T2 gear stupidly used. Thus there is no reason on any grounds that any sort of market controls should be introduced. Ever. "Its the economy stupid!" - Bill Clinton edit: can't spell Latin. I love you. Come fight ignorant "OMFG HAC PRIZE WAY TOO HIGH?1'1?!!?11!!1 CCP DO SUMTHING!11" whiners with me. Sigs are for noobs.
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:06:00 - [5] im not talking about T2 at all tbh im talking about minerial prices and how the deviate from their base price, which is based on id guess their ratio in game. the problem eve has is there is too much isk comming into the game and not enough leaving, the shock of the markets and this yoyo effect from patch to patch has varied effects on the market. like it or not macrominers did us all a favour stripping the veld, when everyone in eve realises that mining veld is pointless the market will die, mins are the building blocks of eve the sheer amount of mins required to produce all the goods for the market outweighs those mined in empire etc there for sooner or later a crash is comming and some form of importer to bring things like trit into the market is gonna be required when noone mines anymore. Play with TNT and things explode!
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:09:00 - [6] Originally by: Krulla I love you. Come fight ignorant "OMFG HAC PRIZE WAY TOO HIGH?1'1?!!?11!!1 CCP DO SUMTHING!11" whiners with me. The way I see it, selling overpriced stuff to people who don't understand how the market works is a form of education. I get paid, they learn stuff. If they didn't learn, then its not my fault they didn't listen in class. Now if only I had a T2 BPO... ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:11:00 - [7] can we get off the subject of OMG NO WAI HAC BPO OWNERS RULZOR the eve world and back on topic as stated several times this post focus' on the building blocks of eve not the greedy t2 bpo owners thats for another thread. Play with TNT and things explode!
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:16:00 - [8] Originally by: SolApathy im not talking about T2 at all tbh im talking about minerial prices and how the deviate from their base price, which is based on id guess their ratio in game. the problem eve has is there is too much isk comming into the game and not enough leaving, the shock of the markets and this yoyo effect from patch to patch has varied effects on the market. like it or not macrominers did us all a favour stripping the veld, when everyone in eve realises that mining veld is pointless the market will die, mins are the building blocks of eve the sheer amount of mins required to produce all the goods for the market outweighs those mined in empire etc there for sooner or later a crash is comming and some form of importer to bring things like trit into the market is gonna be required when noone mines anymore. Imho the reason for high min prices going down are the new regions. I rarely carebear, don't mine and have 260k Zydrine , 45k Megacyte and 8k Morphite in my hangar, from maybe 7 times carebearing ? Then there are the new ships and the increasing number of capital ships. High mins are cheap, people build ships like mad and grep all Triatnium they can get for it.
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:16:00 - [9] Originally by: SolApathy im not talking about T2 at all tbh im talking about minerial prices and how the deviate from their base price, which is based on id guess their ratio in game. The base isk value of minerals isn't based on anything. They were just numbers CCP came up with at EVE's launch. In the beginning there were few people, almost no market. So if they wanted a good player based industrial market to form, they would need to seed in minerals. So after fondling some goat entrails CCP decided on those base prices. Some people may call the increase in base minerals values inflation, but I prefer to think of it as the market price moving to reflect the true value of those minerals; thus those low priced days were simply a market out of equilibrium with commodities prices being undervalued. As stuff happens in EVE (patches, expansions whatever), the minerals prices moves from equilibrium to equilibrium. /shrug. Nothing is wrong. As far as isk sinks go, I think PvPers provide that. When ships go splat a lot of value in mods goes splat too, and T2 ships really make a good isk sink. If EVE didn't have sufficient isk sinks, then you'd see a huge jump in ALL prices, even T1 frigs, as people accumulate more and more money, causing demand-side inflation. The fact that Merlin prices (as an example) are stable at around 250-300k for a long long time now, shows there's no real inflation in the economy. ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Srvin Taisorgky	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:16:00 - [10] By Pellaeon DuGalle Quote: Lemme put it this way. I don't know if CCP understands, and I quite frankly don't care. You should care as CCP does not see this as a laissez-faire market or as a market at all. This is not an economic game. This means that the ôeconomicsö so called are skewed to enable PVP gameplay. This results in all kinds of distortions since the last thing they consider is how prices will be affected. Stuff is constantly being added and subtracted from the game and at this point manufacturing is only considered to be a type of any-other-game crafting. There is no model but expediency. And the phrase I hove, Have a nice day.
Stitcher Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:22:00 - [11] I predict a future where veldspar will be worth more per cubic meter than crokite Actually, not really. ***
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:23:00 - [12] the difference in current prices against base price isnt inflation correct, however steep sudden rises are, zydrine and other mins held steady for well over a year due to various things, sure the new regions contributed to saturation of the market however there is still increased production in all sectors, especially capitals, with current production there isnt enough trit on the market to fuel all bpos into production and due it not be worthwhile to mine trit i believe people have been selling off their excess zyd to buy trit resulting in a further fall of zyd and an increased demand in trit which results in stupid prices all round. Play with TNT and things explode!
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:25:00 - [13] Originally by: Srvin Taisorgky You should care as CCP does not see this as a laissez-faire market or as a market at all. This is not an economic game. This means that the ôeconomicsö so called are skewed to enable PVP gameplay. You're almost certainly right. EVE is a PvP game, it was designed to be a PvP game, and will always be a PvP game. However, no serious corp or alliance who engages in PvP can discount the economics side of it. We can see this because alliances will accumulate T2 BPOs for sale of mods to fund war efforts (nobody even think about derailing this thread ), and they farm complexes to sell mods to fund their ships. Yes, alliances also arm themselves with the afore-mentioned items, but ask any alliance leader, and they'll tell you there needs to be an alliance-level source of income. Therefor while PvP is the main event, the logistics allow such large scale PvP to occur, and this logistics is manifested in the economy of EVE. ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Karille Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:29:00 - [14] Originally by: SolApathy the difference in current prices against base price isnt inflation correct, however steep sudden rises are, zydrine and other mins held steady for well over a year due to various things, sure the new regions contributed to saturation of the market however there is still increased production in all sectors, especially capitals, with current production there isnt enough trit on the market to fuel all bpos into production and due it not be worthwhile to mine trit i believe people have been selling off their excess zyd to buy trit resulting in a further fall of zyd and an increased demand in trit which results in stupid prices all round. Why are you saying it isnt worth it to mine for trit? Quite obviously if there is no trit on the market the price to obtain some would grow to a level that ensured someone mined it. I don't know what you're smoking, but since there is a demand, there will be a supply. _________________________________________________________
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:31:00 - [15] Originally by: SolApathy the difference in current prices against base price isnt inflation correct, however steep sudden rises are, zydrine and other mins held steady for well over a year due to various things, sure the new regions contributed to saturation of the market however there is still increased production in all sectors, especially capitals, with current production there isnt enough trit on the market to fuel all bpos into production and due it not be worthwhile to mine trit i believe people have been selling off their excess zyd to buy trit resulting in a further fall of zyd and an increased demand in trit which results in stupid prices all round. And yet this is exactly where Laissez-faire economics will save us. Previously most people didn't mine trit because it just wasn't worth it. But now, trit prices (and pyer) are at all-time highs, and now for many people they suddenly become more attractive. For example, previously I viewed pryo and scordite to be perfect substitutes, they were pretty much the same value. But now with high pyer prices I mine lots of scordite. Everybody puts an isk value on their time. If I'm willing to only do something if I earn 1mil isk an hour, and trit prices pay me only 800k an hour, I won't mine it. But if trit rises to pay out 1.2mil an hour, I'll go out and mine veld. The higher trit prices rise, the more people will mine for trit. We have to remember that the supply of minerals is not fixed. Anybody with frigate can go out and mine, and they'll mine veld if the price of it rises far enough. Heck, if prices keep rising far enough, we might even see non-macro Hulks mining veld. ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:33:00 - [16] thats true eventually it would, however its stil far more profitable to mine crokite ofr 10mins sell the zyd at whatever price than mine trit. the point is i one saw a post where CyberDyne R-D corp were requiring 500mil trit every 2 days to keep their bpos in production when you consider that is one corp advertsing on the forums, every day billions of trit are required which arnt mined by macro'ers like previously. this thread isnt about establishing whos theory of economics is best its about ccp seriously taking a look in the mirror and considering can we pay a proper economist to look at this. Play with TNT and things explode!
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:36:00 - [17] i think your still missing the point that billy no mates mining 1mil trit an hour isnt gonna solve any of our problems, this needs to be done at a massive level. and besides tbh i wouldnt even login to mine trit for 1 mil and hour. Play with TNT and things explode!
Karille Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:37:00 - [18] Its all well and good to mine crokite and buy the tritanium. If everyone does this the price for tritanium will rise. More people will mine veldspar, and the price of tritanium will fall. Its self regulating, just because the prices are ones you don't agree with doesn't mean something is broken. _________________________________________________________
Anatolius Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:39:00 - [19] Originally by: Karille Why are you saying it isnt worth it to mine for trit? Quite obviously if there is no trit on the market the price to obtain some would grow to a level that ensured someone mined it. I don't know what you're smoking, but since there is a demand, there will be a supply. Sort of. Trit, unfortunately, is capped at a specific price point. It can only go so high before you can break even by buying and reprocessing NPC-sold items. This is a horrible thing; indeed, all price-fixing (in terms of abnormal act-of-god price fixing by CCP) is a terrible idea. EVE has the greatest market in the history of gaming, and it's not because CCP is ensuring everyone and their mother can buy a HAC for the price of a small coffee and a McBreakfast. "If God be for us, whom can be against us?"
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:41:00 - [20] Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle Lemme put it this way. <snip> Your post rocks. //Maya
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:42:00 - [21] Originally by: SolApathy stuff Huh? no macroer's? I'm pretty sure there are still macroers and sweat-shop miners around. But either way even if there's a lack of trit in the economy, prices will keep rising, and that corp will have to pay more and more for their trit. 500mil trit is a heck of a lot, but I'd hope that some small starting-out mining corps can help fill the order. A guaranteed market for your goods is worth selling your goods at a small discount I would think. Have to admit, but I'm kinda dogmatic, and I prefer to believe the market will take care of itself. People will be hurt by sudden and/or large market movements and some of the small producers will be squeezed out, but hey, I try make money, I'm not a people person. On a side note, I would be overjoyed if CCP wants to hire an economics-type guy to fiddle with the EVE market. Get paid to play EVE? Where can I apply? ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
SolApathy Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:42:00 - [22] Edited by: SolApathy on 11/02/2007 04:40:52 perhaps but i dont think it can rise that much before the market collapses, even if people do pay high prices for trit and supply does get met id like to see the man that will then buy the produced good especially if u consider a dread. at face value lets say it requires 100mil trit if a producer was previously paying 1.5isk p/u thats 150mil trit cost if we consider its then 5isk p/u max before the price falls i expect higher tbh. then the trit price alone would be worth 750mil so good luck trying to find the guy later who wants to pay potentially 2.4bil for a dread and when u consider it takes a week to buy, produce and sell the market could have already partially recovered leaving the producer out of pocket and everything starts over again anywho its 4:40 am arguing the theory of economics at this hour really is kinda sad im gonna goto bed. Play with TNT and things explode!
Salvis Tallan Gallente Team Condor	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:42:00 - [23] Originally by: SolApathy thats true eventually it would, however its stil far more profitable to mine crokite ofr 10mins sell the zyd at whatever price than mine trit. the point is i one saw a post where CyberDyne R-D corp were requiring 500mil trit every 2 days to keep their bpos in production when you consider that is one corp advertsing on the forums, every day billions of trit are required which arnt mined by macro'ers like previously. this thread isnt about establishing whos theory of economics is best its about ccp seriously taking a look in the mirror and considering can we pay a proper economist to look at this. I've been playing around alot with the market as of late, and I am continuously amazed at how well it works. Whats profitable now wont always be whats profitable later. Those billions of trit will come from somewhere, guaranteed. Why? Because if the demand grows above the supply and price rises, more people wil be attracted to mining it for money, and things even out. ECON 101. When everyone is out to make a profit, the system is self-correcting and if you go and start messing with it, the balance is altered. ------
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Anatolius Sort of. Trit, unfortunately, is capped at a specific price point. It can only go so high before you can break even by buying and reprocessing NPC-sold items. Dang. I didn't know NPCs had any presence on the mods market. I've never actually bought mods off an NPC before. . But yes, this would present a huge problem for a free market. Perhaps its time to get rid of these NPC sellers? After all, T1 BPOs are freely available to anybody with the isk, and as far as I can tell, they're just a throwback to when EVE first went live. Although I guess from an RP point of view, a universe full of corporations that don't actually sell anything would look a bit strange... ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
Pellaeon DuGalle Caldari Deep Black Industries	Posted - 2007.02.11 04:53:00 - [25] Originally by: SolApathy stuff Night. But if you read this again, the problem you presented isn't exactly an economics one. Its a social studies one. The problem is whether you can trust your supplier to give you the thing for what you paid for it. An economicsish-type solution is reputation. RL firms like Moody's and Standard and Poors exist simply because reputation has a monetary value. Thus we can say that any corp in EVE who wants to do continued business will have to put a value on their reputation. If they feel they can get more by ripping you off on one dread rather then selling lots of dreads to people down the line, then tough luck. Otherwise they're most likely not going to take your money and run. I'd love to set up a Corp or Char ratings agency, but nobody knows/trusts me ------------------- "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible."
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.11 05:04:00 - [26] Mineral prices are as high as they've ever been (to hell with Mex and Pyr in particular) and prices on all modules are way way down in Empire. I'm sorry, but inflation is happening where?
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:26:00 - [27] We do not need to invoke controls over the economy, as it will be a full-time job, that will eventually fail. I can point to Europe as an example, with America following close behind. No need to bring that garbage into the game. What CCP ought to do, is take the shackles off of the rest of us, and allow people to fairly compete in the T2 ship market. _________________________________________________________
De Sojus Minmatar DS Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:28:00 - [28] In reply to: ôThis thread isnt about establishing whos theory of economics is best its about ccp seriously taking a look in the mirror and considering can we pay a proper economist to look at this.ö If they hired a proper economist they would receive the same answers from him as you just received from DuGalle. Incidentally, IÆm also a student of Economics and Finance so now you have 2 proper economists telling you that the basic market system in EVE works perfectly. Veldspar and NPC goods, as mentioned, are available in abundance so supply should not be a problem. If you are facing a shortage of tritanium you are obviously not paying enough for it.
MrDisposable	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Pellaeon DuGalle Edited by: Pellaeon DuGalle on 11/02/2007 03:53:15 Lemme put it this way. I don't know if CCP understands, and I quite frankly don't care. But I understand how markets work. Its what I do in real life. Finance + Economics in Uni etcetc Limited resources and unlimited wants: it is from this state that economics was born. And as far as a Laissez-faire market is concerned, the EVE market works PERFECTLY. Yes, disgustingly high T2 prices are supposed to happen. This is the whole point of supply and demand. Once you start putting market price caps in place, it is no longer a perfect market economy, and full market efficiency is not being utilized. Lets face it, no matter how much people complain, the market for T2 goods ALWAYS CLEARS. People will buy all the expensive T2 gear AT the outrageous prices. Therefore value (in isk) is created in the economy. If you limit the prices, then the same number of goods will still be sold, but at a lower price, thus reducing the value and hence economic productivity of EVE. The same number of people will have T2 gear (limited BPOs so limited supply), but the producers get less isk. Ceteris Paribus, the people of EVE as a whole will be less well off. The only time price ceilings are introduced is for social benefit reasons: limiting price on water, electricity, basic foodstuffs etc etc. T2 gear in EVE is a luxury. You don't need it. T1 gear used well will beat T2 gear stupidly used. Thus there is no reason on any grounds that any sort of market controls should be introduced. Ever. "Its the economy stupid!" - Bill Clinton edit: can't spell Latin. Perfectly is not true, well not even close imo. What happens when producers see a HUGE demand for a product? They increase supply. CCP has capped the supply side instead of prices. To better reflect real life T2 BPOs should only be limited for a 6-8 month period. Then the BPOs should be available to everyone. Or to even better reproduce real life markets make the T2 BPOs disappear. Use invention as the only means to aquire T2 and it will make ALOT more sense. Hell HD-DVD players haven't even been out for a year and cheaper chinese models are already going to come out. It doesn't take long for knock-offs of the original must have products to flood the marketplace.
horst fuchst	Posted - 2007.02.11 06:34:00 - [30] it's not inflation you are talking about, mate. that's called market speculation. ever heard of "honest trader/merchant" in rl or here? these 2 words dont get along :) anyway, inflation doesnt mean just rising prices. its a ratio between end prices and purchasing capacity. so from a certain point of view, if price of a product goes down, that's a sign (in most cases) that this product doesnt sell well. why? because ppls dont have enough money to buy it. in other words they dont have enough purchasing power. and here you go - thats already an inflation. devaluation of the money.

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