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Synex	Posted - 2003.12.13 10:41:00 - [1] Edited by: Synex on 13/12/2003 10:44:18 Edited by: Synex on 13/12/2003 10:42:37 So games right... How far have they come since their start (mainstream) in the 80's / 90's? Well... graphics are obviously a lot better... Sound too... Gameplay is often a lot more fluid, and there is obviously a lot more of them around... But have they actually got any more advanced? Game design now is a hugely complicated process, and often designing a game is far more difficult than designing an ordinary application because of the far-reaching demands of it. Think about EVE, you'd have to design networking routines, security systems, a quasiWindows-esq 'window' system, graphics engine, sound engine... And that's before you put any content in it. However, what would be good to see in a game... what would make it ground-breaking? A few years ago I was involved in a little progrmaming team called The Elite Project. (TEP) Our aim was to recreate a game in the likes of Frontier Elite / First Encounters, but using modern technology and cutting-edge ideas. My role in this was to create a s, so that every time you played the game... It turned out COMPLETELY different, thus adding 10-fold to the replayability. I ended up doing this by creating the Dynamic Story System, which was essentially a game-sized AI, not particularly advanced AI, but enough to make the game-world 'alive'. What this DSS did was basically assign a strength to each of the solar systems each empire owned, and then the empires would 'attack' each other and therefore gain/lose systems. Depending on the nature of each empire, they'd either build defensive ships, more production facility etc. etc. thus altering the outcome of the battles etc. This worked better than I could have imagined... The universe was constantly changing as the two sides fought and the borders between them moved. As systems came under attack, trade routes were altered, generating a great supply for weapons and lots of people wanting to leave the system. The player could enter systems that were currently battling, and see faction ships blowing themselves up, and join the battle and often swing the balance in favor of one side. News storys, missions etc. could all be generated easily from this DSS and it kept the game interesting. You felt like you were making a difference. Surprisingly, when I decided to test out and throw a third race into the mix, the first two races joined forces to attack the third I was quite impressed with that... So anyway, onto the point of this thread... EVE, along with any MMORPG would be the perfect environment to implement something like the DSS. A system that finally get's these empires to come alive, rather than the shallow backdrop they currently are. Minmatar hate the Amarr right? So why have I NEVER seen even tiny skirmishes between them? Why do CONCORD sit at a gate, while crappy NPC pirates plug away at your hull? With a DSS, you could get it to dynamically alter the sec status of systems, allowing rifts to appear between the different empires... Maybe 2 empires might ally and go after a 3rd? Agent missions etc. could easily be auto-generated from such a system, and the players could actually make a difference to the story line! This is the sort of thing I'd expect from a MMORPG today, let alone a single player game. Game companies seem to be focusing too much on graphics, and flashy things. How far have games come since the start? Maybe not as far as we think... Synex EVE-DB Programming Guru
IZON	Posted - 2003.12.13 12:59:00 - [2] Very interesting idea; heh, I'd like to see this in a post-Monday patch please devs. But you're right Synex, one of the initial attractions of Eve for many 'outsiders' are the fantastic (potw) story lines. Newcomers are soon disappointed as they realise the stories represent a shallow non-interactive element of Eve, and so it transpires that no one gives a hoot about role-play games news. It would be nice to log on and read a headline like æMinmitar rebels seize Amarr outpostÆ then, in the game, you realise that a battalion of NPC Minmitar BSÆs are preventing all Amarr ships from docking at said outpost, players can decide to take sides and either assist the Amarr or Minmitar (players from the winning side are awarded millions in isk and rare tech items), and the outcome of which would have an impact in another part of the Eve galaxy. A patch that would bring the level of dynamisms you described Synex would be most interesting. "...master! there's a guy in the south village called IZON, he is a Ninja!"
Synex	Posted - 2003.12.13 14:37:00 - [3] One thing that I never thought of when designing the system was adding smaller pirate factions etc. Currently, pirates 'warp' (spawn) into a belt... But it's never explained where they come from. I know of several small 'outposts' (basically a beacon with lots of low threat npc's) but wouldn't it be great to see something more organised. Imagine a pirate base spawns just outside empire space - it wouldn't be immediately noticable (maybe just a beacon or something, but it grows into a outpost, then station etc.) , apart from an increased pirate presence in the surrounding systems... The longer the base sits there, the greater the presence... Obviously, concord wouldnt stand having pirates hanging around in empire space, so there would be a high concord presence too inside empire space... So anyway, along comes Joe Playah.. l337 pirate hunter... he see's loads of pirates in one area, so thinks hmm... must be a outpost around here. Goes looking, and finds it... Protected by a fleet of pirate battleships, with pirate miners in the belts protected by pirate cruisers, pirate frigates attacking faction convoys in the surrounding systems. So Joe goes off and gets his mates, and they come back, lay the smack down on the base... It's not hard to destroy (say 100000 hp) but you need to get through the fleet too... So him and his mates destroy it... What do they get for it? Increased faction status + a reward. Lots of pirate loot, maybe a couple of rares... occasionally a new BP that the pirates have been researching! With the station destroyed, the last few straggling pirates get's cleared out, and life goes back to normal. Meanwhile... a beacon pops up in a system a few jumps away... and the pirates start building another outpost. Something like this would make the game hugely more dynamic... No more pirate farming, no more unexplained warps etc. etc. THAT's what I hope the future will hold. Even a greater NPC presence would make the universe a lot more believable... We have convoys, concord and some npc pirate/police ships. Can you really believe that the massive empires are supported by the 6500 (MAX) players that are online at once? No! We should be seeing NPC miners, with some NPC escorts... NPC transports running forward and back to stations... NPC bounty hunters etc. etc. How the hell do these NPC corps support themselves? Come on! Make this world believble! So much effort has gone into the back-story (POTW, Stories etc.) and the design of the ships, stations and other stuff that I can't believe EVE is so empty when you get into it.
Ker Avon	Posted - 2003.12.13 15:19:00 - [4] I totally agree. EVE is an extremley large gameworld but to ask the few thousand players that are online each day to make that gameworld feel totally alive and interactive is asking little too much. I'd love to see NPC's interacting with their environment - mining, fighting each other, setting up their own outposts, explorering, scouting, etc etc. What we have now are a few linear convoys that go nowhere and insta-spawn pirates and thats about it. I know we as players should create our own in-game story but like I said, EVE is massive, the number of active players online isn't. At the moment I'm still loving this game, but another 6 months down the line and its gonna start feeling like a really big waste of space if this gameworld doesn't 'come-alive'. Atmosphere and having that immersive feeling is what will keep players playing longer IMHO. And like you said, if I feel as though I can make the slightest bit of difference in the gameworld by taking sides in an Empire v Empire conflict, or shipping out tons of badly need supplies to some far off NPC outpost, or comming to the aid of some NPC convoy under attack by NPC pirates, then THOSE are the things that keep you immersed within a game and keep the $ flowing into the CCP coffers each month. Having the choice of interacting with PC's and/or NPC's and actually affecting the gameworld around you is something I'd love to see in EVE. Somehow I think we'll have to wait for the next generation of space-based MMORPG's to come along before we see that kind of content though I see EVE as the first of its kind - like Elite was back in the 80's. Things will only get better
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:17:00 - [5] I have been waiting for exactly that same thing for years Synex. Close to a decade. Still not one games designer has even seemed to think about looking down that line. The closest I've seen is Eschaton, which probably won't even be out for a few years. But-100% behind this. IF a group of game devs ever decided to do it, it would be easily the #1 game in my books. And thus a well deserves *BUMP* because tbh, this is what I believed Eve would be when I first bought it. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:24:00 - [6] I could not agree more Dre and Synex. This is one of the reasons I have "suspended" my play time in eve and am now searching for the next game to test and play. Eve has sadly dissapointed in the story/interactivity. (at least a certian competitor has a civil war which you can join and sway the out come for all ppl in the war.
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:28:00 - [7] Synex, you say you had this working in a game? Was wondering if you could give CCP some basic headers to get started on? (I know it's their job, but a push-start can't hurt ) It's a major, revolutionary idea...a shame no dev has ever seen it that way . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Fausto	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:29:00 - [8] Nah, too complicated for programmers. CCP would need to hire a story writer or someone with imagination and that does not fit them since they would probably loose control over this game:))) They want it this way so that they can manipulate your fate. ______ <brainpodder>
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:47:00 - [9] Quote: It would be nice to log on and read a headline like æMinmitar rebels seize Amarr outpostÆ then, in the game, you realise that a battalion of NPC Minmitar BSÆs are preventing all Amarr ships from docking at said outpost, players can decide to take sides and either assist the Amarr or Minmitar (players from the winning side are awarded millions in isk and rare tech items), and the outcome of which would have an impact in another part of the Eve galaxy. We Gallenteans could stand by the side and sell quafe -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Negotiator	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:48:00 - [10] hmmmm...i got a better idea. Caldari Navy rolls into Luminaire and we drink all your quafe while u slavemine with you minmatari counterparts on radioactive mining outposts? sounds good to me!
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:50:00 - [11] Link to another thread which would create a lot more content, especially in combination with this idea. Yes, I'm wishing, but hey I figured since I was working at agent missions on Christmas this is my day off . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Slam	Posted - 2003.12.27 21:59:00 - [12] 6 moths ago I would have said this was never what was intended with Eve. Eve was and is supposed to be purely player driven with storelline as pure backdrop, perhaps with a few scenarios interjected throughout the year. However, I think it's time to realise that Eve isn't the success it was intended to be - at leadt not if you measure by the number of online players at any given moment. The storyline for players is ok in some parts of space, but in other the game is somewhat dead. That wont do since you cant just say f*** em to the 80% of the player base that isnt involved in the frontier conflicts. Bottomline: CCP would do themselves a favor by enlarging the npc driven part of the game. This has to be done via a scheme such as Synex suggest, since the polaris program obviously cant cope with the demand. Naturally BIG hires out Synex as a consultant to any interested parties - 10.000 isk pr hour :)
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.12.27 22:14:00 - [13] I'd let a gimp draw my ship if it meant challenging AI. Convert Stations
Luc Boye	Posted - 2003.12.27 22:17:00 - [14] Edited by: Luc Boye on 27/12/2003 22:29:35 Quote: hmmmm...i got a better idea. Caldari Navy rolls into Luminaire and we drink all your quafe while u slavemine with you minmatari counterparts on radioactive mining outposts? sounds good to me! hehe, keep dreaming, bald guy! -- 2004.12.29 23:33:40combatMining Pollution Cloud hits you, doing 140.0 damage.
Mojo JoJo	Posted - 2003.12.27 22:40:00 - [15] it would be nice if this could come to a game like eve i had thought this was what eve was gonna be but it isnt
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.27 22:41:00 - [16] You never know. <Keeping this thread awake till a dev responds> _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Soldier	Posted - 2003.12.27 23:01:00 - [17] There is hope... Check out X2 - The Threat. It comprises many of the elements that Synex speaks of. It is the second installment in it's series. The hope lies in the fact that the third installment is currently in development and slated to be a mmorpg. If Eve is still around when that comes out, it could prove to be a serious "threat" to Eve's existence.
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.27 23:04:00 - [18] Atm I'm kind of hoping CCP gets the idea before such a game comes out. Unless that game is Eschaton of course, but that isn't the point. _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Volrath	Posted - 2003.12.28 00:12:00 - [19] Edited by: Volrath on 28/12/2003 00:12:47 Really cool idea's here, it would be so cool to actually help the faction of your choice win skirmishes and with that influence the empire borders... Id REALLY like to see this happening in EVE.
Darwpromtheus	Posted - 2003.12.28 00:44:00 - [20] Yeah a inbuilt rationale for pirates and other npc¦s, not as it¦s now, dronish behavior and eternity spawns (what¦s the rationale for a piratespawn ? Answr; none) An increased AI coupled with some elaborative diversity for NPC¦s as synex suggested would make the game EVEn more enjoyable. '' Or in other words: More content. BUMP
Other Minion	Posted - 2003.12.28 04:41:00 - [21] I have to say that I have been really disappointed with the crappy RP news. Its worthless trash not even worth reading. Why? Because there is never any ingame content to go along with the news. Its just a bunch of text with no real ingame value. CCP needs to put a poll up on the site, no.... in the game and log on and ask everyone that logs in if they really care for or even pay much attention to the eve news. Now it would be a diffrent story if it mentioned something and then when a player warped into gehi they saw NPC pirates and the Gallente navy exchanging laser and torp fire. You know a nice light show that gives the player base the feeling... well that the NPC empires are more then some pretty peice of writing.
RussianBazilisk	Posted - 2003.12.28 05:09:00 - [22] WOW some really nice ideas. Would be nice to have this stuff in the game. Dont ket this topic die.
Fwiffo	Posted - 2003.12.28 07:38:00 - [23] Great idea Synex, a feature like that would certainly rock hard! In a similar, but lower level and more player oriented vein, my little EVE fantasy lately would be the ability to hire NPC pilots, equip them and give them missions and orders. But I digress.. Anywho, It seems like a Story System like you propose would give a good "cost/benefit" in terms of gameplay. The players get a more dynamic and exciting universe that is always keeping them on their toes, and CCP does a (probably) huge serverside change without having to do something drastic like issue a totally new client. I've always thought that CCP has all the ingredients here and now, they just need to find a better recipe. Cheers, Fwiffo
Entrani	Posted - 2003.12.28 08:32:00 - [24] Anyone else get the idea that the Devs only read the threads that they sticky? This idea is excellent but will never be implemented due to lack of caring and initiative of the Devs. They have their ideas and their plans. They will deviate slightly to facilitate what they want on the game, regardless of the epiphanies of the player base. They are strapped to their scheduled itinerary and that is that. ---------------------------------------------- If patience is a virtue and ignorance is bliss, is the meaning of life to be slow and stupid?
Winterblink	Posted - 2003.12.28 08:53:00 - [25] Is this carboned to the Idea Lab forum? Word is someone's reading that for the good stuff. ___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie//
Segue Ballistar	Posted - 2003.12.28 10:22:00 - [26] Nice...one of the best threads that I have read here. I had been involved with Eve since late Beta 2 or 3 (it's been so long that I really can't remember anymore). I was a hardcore follower watching every step and having complete faith in the devs. However, I soon found out that once the game hit retail, the promises of a dynamic, fluid and living world were completely broken. This game is using the same mindless spawn systems that have been around since the days of the Atari, only they are using flashier graphics. CCP is in business for one reason - to make money. They can lure people into buying the game with nice box art and pretty graphics, but they will not keep them around to pay subscription fees with the boredom of stark, empty space. For me, I cancelled my subscription months ago and was just offered a free re-trial until the end of the year. It only took me about 20 minutes to realize that space is still a big empty space. I will not be renewing my account. Synex, you have some great ideas and hopefully the devs are reading and will take note. I still have to say that I love the concept of this game. I badly want to see it succeed. But at its current stage, that is not going to happen. Please CCP, make it happen, see the light and make the game INTERESTING. I would gladly pay a monthly fee to see NPC base sieges and battles. I would get a kick out of watching Concord chase down pirates and come to a miner's rescue at just the right moment. But I will not pay to endlessly haul rocks or warp between systems selling high and buying low. Enough of the eye candy, your game looks beautiful - just give us substance!
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.28 19:03:00 - [27] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 28/12/2003 22:45:35 Bump. CCP does read threads that get big. Regularly. Hint hint. Ty Eris, but do you mind if we keep a copy in the General Forums? Far fewer people read the Idea Lab . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Eris Discordia	Posted - 2003.12.28 19:09:00 - [28] moved to Idea Lab please continue your discussions I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
Katjia	Posted - 2003.12.29 00:55:00 - [29] bumP ccp pls pimp the convoys again.....ie put things back in them.
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.12.29 03:32:00 - [30] Around 20 posts in 24 hours on General Forum. 1 post in 24 hours on Idea Lab. I believe that's the point I'm trying to make . _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

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