Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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tried to check that you hasve more low slots to spare with PG modules?

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Do you really expect to get a varied damage type with the same insade crude DPS that amar laser do? pfff compare how much crude dps a raven get when compared to a geddon.. or atempest comapred to an abbadon.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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make the dps calculation per ship.. then you will see that the dual damage bonus on pest is only to compensate for 1 less turret.

And to the previous poster. Exaclty what i wanted to say! They are equivalent tahcyon and 1400 are rougly equivalent when on their respective ships. Ammar are not at disadvantage on that one.

The only place amamr are at severe disadvantage is fighting tech 2 minmatar ships. They are the best ones to take out ravens or Rokhs or any caldari and part of the minmatar (maesltrom melt in front of an geddon)

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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When did you saw a 1400 tempest using nos to anything?

Now make your calcualtiosn and see if the 7.5 1400 are really superior to the tychyons. And that is only at level 5!!! cause with battleships level 4 the ammar batleships way outdamage the tempest Tachyons have good alpha as well.. we we do not use cap, ok good for us. But we have bad tracking and our real damaged is gimped cause any real combat situation is outer optimal. So guns are rougly balanced.

Now put one ship agaisnt the other and you will see they are rougly equivalent ( the decisive factor will be the skills)

And do not forget that the most common BB is the raven a shield tanker (EVEN IN 0.0 they are pretty common and a tasty target since shield tank t2 equip is more expensive loot)

The main ammar problem are the amarian players.

The ask for versatile ships.. they get khanid.. and when they get they complain!!!

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Diehard Si

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Throw NOS on an amarr ships and its worse than any other race. Caldari and minmatar can still fire without cap, Gallente will struggle a bit more but have drone boats ( eg the domi ) which can still be effective.

Amarrs main thing is supposed to be large armour and good tanking abilities. But the weapons kill so much cap that this reduces the effectiveness of it's repping completely.

The only amarr ship i still fly now and then is the arbitrator, and thats cos I don't put lasers on it.

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try simply focusing more on passive armor, like 2x 1600 plates with 2 EANmII and DCU II 1 rep. Ships that use cap heavily need to use passive buffers not try to out rep enemy...

others also have their cap problems. Gallente also use lots of cap. Minmatar must always use mWD ( a matar ship without MWD is dead meat) and that cuts 25% cap and using it two cycles tog et to correct range already leave us with only 60% of our cap to rep.

Ammar phylosophy is Sit there.. and be a stone with huge laser firing capabilities! Its a role! If you try to fill minamtar role you will loose, but same way if you try to make a tempest fill that role it will loose.

Absolutely nothing is more scary to my malestrom than an ammar battleship.

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Originally by: Dristra

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The so called build in damage bonus does not exist anymore, that was in the old golden days.

so the true problem is the cap use bonus, it is not justified anymore, and we still have it, if you halved cap use (that puts them in line with blasters) and replaced the cap use bonus with anything else, people would stop complaining.

at least i would, then i would actually be happy about amarr...

someone said something about raven dps, but forgets the lack of tracking, same dps AT ANY range, and power to vary damage type... hey, sure that sucks bad...
guess no one flyes caldari for just that reason...

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yes it does exist! Ammar guns do more damage than any other gun! Put ammar tychyons on a dominix and 1400MM in another dominix. The Tychyon one will out dps the other by a significant ammount (yes tychyons need more PG, but ammar ships do have far more PG than minmatar ones for exaclty that).


Rysa got almost right. I think a single crystal with inverted thermal and EM like80 % thermal for 0% range modifier) would solve the issue

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Originally by: Kagura Nikon

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Try to fit 1400 Tech 2 on a tempest without using a low slot also... yes the maelstrom has a ridiculowsly high PG, but that is cause it was clearly made to use fallof rigs to increase the range of the guns to effective fleet combat range.


and 1400 are only lower dps at high skill levels, at lower levels with low skils damage bonus the 1400 is better.

And stop with this tier 3 BS. Even tuxford compares the tychyon with the tier 2 of other races.

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Originally by: Blue Azur

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BTW Tell me which T1 ship has the most DPS Blastertron or Tachyon Abaddon

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Originally by: Blue Azur

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Passive armor is something non existant. Armor does not regenerate by it it's self.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Blue Azur

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Passive armor is something non existant. Armor does not regenerate by it it's self.

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Buffer tanks work quite well and typically better for high damage encounters than rep tanks.

Unfortounatly, except on the battleship level, amarr do not have the powergrid to fit plates with their guns. Since downsizing is so useless due to the typically higher returns on damage and downsizing when switching to autocannons or electron blasters, Amarr do better plated when fitting blasters and better repping when fitting autocannons.

I.E. plates dont fit for all but battleships.

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Originally by: Ms Freak

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Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:09:33
Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:08:50

Originally by: Tisanta

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*Snip*

as people currently tank armour mostly EANM boosts EM resistance through the roof and this makes it harder for our guns to acheive.. but when you look at the actualy figures rather than assuming just because it's base is high that the result will be high its not true in many cases ( other than minmitar... damn those 92.5% resists!).

take for example a domi with 2 eanm II and a dcu II and an explosive hardner.. the EM resistance will only be around 75-79% as will the others.. which begs the question what makes lasers so poor?

*snip*

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I am completeley amarr spec'd, im not far from command ships and will continue into carrier/etc. Amarr are a nice race they do well at mission running and the Cruse/Pilgrim/Zealot/Absolution are all very good ships.

There are 2 things to note here tho:

1) Those are all T2 ships requiring some serious training time and SP investiment to make good, having lvl 3 skills just dont stand up to much when you only get 1 bonus on your ships.

2) As you mentioned in your post the EM resists of an EANMII+DCUII ship will be somewhere in the region 79% with lvl 4 compensations. The REASON this is bad is not because it's that high it's because no-other race have 1 dmg type perma-tanked.

Let me explain a bit more:

Lets say for example we take a standard BS resists:

EM/Exp/Kin/Therm
60/10/25/40

Before we have added any modules the amarr are already dealing (on average) 50% less damage between the two types due to natual resists.

Lets take galentte for example, Kin, Therm, They are dealing (assuming blasters/rails) about 32/33% less (average) damage due to natural resists.

You can see where this would go with minmatar or caldari, they can pick and choose and most PVPers i know use Therm/Exp/Kin combinations, some use Exp/Kin, some Kin/Therm. So this would vary from setup to setup but at optimal average it would be about 17/18% natual resist.

Now we add 2 EANMII and a DCU, We can assume lvl 4 compensations for this as any passive PVPer will likley have lvl 3/4 skills.

Our new values look like:

STD:
EM/Exp/Kin/Therm
60/10/25/40

EANM II
EM/Exp/Kin/Therm
69.6/31.6/43/54.4

2 EANM II
EM/Exp/Kin/Therm
76.9/48/56.68/64.86

DCUII + 2 EANM II
EM/Exp/Kin/Therm
80.59/56.3/63.61/70.48

From the above it is obvious that you now have a natural resistance to Lasers with 80.5% and 70.5% resistances.

Giving and average 75% resistance to Laser damage, and 65/66% against Galentte damage. Again i won't go into minmatar or caldari as they could be hitting with anything, assuming they hit for the best possible output (Exp/Kin) you have a average resist of 59/60%.

Now its entirely possible that people would fit 1EANM,1Exp,1Kin,1Thermal hardener, bringing your resistances to a more equal level which would obviously benefit the amarr and go against every other race.

The problem with amarr is complex and not just limited to resistances of your target. In short my opinion is a combination of these things results in amarr being the underdog race:

1) Natual EM+Therm resists coupled with the use of EANM+DCU.
2) Average cap size / recharge for such a cap dependant race.
3) Lack of versatility.
4) Huge SP requirements for the PVP capable Amarr Ships.
5) 1 Useless bonus on all (well 95%) of the ships

Amarr down need a major "boost" they just need a bit of "tweaking". Giving amarr ships more cap and replacing the cap bonus with a damage bonus would fit it. So would reducing EM+Therm bounsus on hardners, so would increasing amarr cap size alot, there are multiple solutions it's just a case of which one CCP think is the most appropriate and least disruptive.

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Originally by: Warrio

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Dirf: Please type the word 'Amarr' into the search function and look up all the old threads on this topic. No need to give the 'I can't fit a ship for PvP' crowd yet another place to vent their frustrations.

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