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Dirf Olep	Posted - 2007.02.14 01:58:00 - [1] I've read alot of posts/threads on here and half of them end up with people talking about how Amarr need to be buffed alot or a little. I've flown Gallente ships for a good year, and only started flying Amarr the past two weeks. I honestly like the Amarr ships better then the Gallente so far. So my question is.... What is the problem with Amarr that i've heard so much about?
Divine Misconception	Posted - 2007.02.14 02:02:00 - [2] Geddon goes pew pew pew, with the best of them. Don't let the whiners tell you otherwise Geddon's pew pew pew, will get you at the top of almost any fleet killmail I like the Tempest better, but geddon is very good DPS ship. -------------------------------- Coke Habit.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.14 02:03:00 - [3] Nobody's whining about PvE (well, almost nobody anyway), but about PvP. Typical "recent" tanks include Explosive hardner + DC + EANM(s), increasing EM resists to insane values on pretty much any ship that armortanks. Amarr having their main damage EM (and almost exclusive damage for longer range crystals), they end up pretty shafted in effective damage dealt. That is the gist of it anyway. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Eoa Flos	Posted - 2007.02.14 02:24:00 - [4] My opinion is that either the "problem" people have with Amarr are the memories/stories of the prior time when Amarr ships and lasers were very, very powerful or, which I think is more likely, they simply haven't trained the appropriate skills high enough to see just how nice Amarr stuff can be. I'd also like to point out that Veto Corp's videos always feature plenty of Amarr ships in action, and they're hardcore PvPers. Also, Amarr ships have certain roles they fill very nicely. For instance, since they generally have fewer med slots than other races, they do great in group combat, but, depending on the ship, not always that great solo. But even then, I believe that with the right skills and mods, as well as experience on the pilot's part, most any ship can be used well. Yes, there's the whole thing about "natural EM resists are high on armor, oh noes!", but with more training and experience, Amarr are just fine. Besides, we also have some neat-o hybrid ships like the Recon ships, and certain T1 ships that have missiles or drones to mix 'n' match with the full-out lasers and armor of the rest. There's my 2 ISK.
Viktor Tessela Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.02.14 02:47:00 - [5] For me, it comes down to the fact that every other race has a racial special that allows them to vary their damage heavily (Gallente get drones, minmatar get projectiles, caldari get missiles). Amarr, meanwhile, do EM damage with some secondary thermal. Aside from the arbitrator and its T2 variants, no drone ships. Half of our T2 ships are this weird 'retarded offspring of Caldari and Amarr' mix. All that, plus lasers take up disgusting amounts of cap in exchange for easily warded against damage in PVP.
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 02:59:00 - [6] the problem with amarr(or more specifically laserboats) is that you need an insane amount of SP to compete against other races with them. IF you get such SP, then you wont see a problem. your lasers will pewpew, your cap will hold, your armor will remain in one piece as your enemies explode screaming "WTF NERF LASERS" ...if on teh other hand you dont have that SP, you'll cry as your guns seem to bounce off anything remotely resembling an armor tank whilst nuking your cap faster than that dual rep tank you're attempting to run, before you get eaten alive by that 2 month old noob in a nosdomi because you have no cap to do anything, despite that injector.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 03:36:00 - [7] Originally by: mallina the problem with amarr(or more specifically laserboats) is that you need an insane amount of SP to compete against other races with them. IF you get such SP, then you wont see a problem. your lasers will pewpew, your cap will hold, your armor will remain in one piece as your enemies explode screaming "WTF NERF LASERS" ...if on teh other hand you dont have that SP, you'll cry as your guns seem to bounce off anything remotely resembling an armor tank whilst nuking your cap faster than that dual rep tank you're attempting to run, before you get eaten alive by that 2 month old noob in a nosdomi because you have no cap to do anything, despite that injector. Except the part about Amarr being any better with high SP as any other race with high SP. They do gain the largest benefit from tech 2 weapons, but the difference between that gain and minmatar or gallentes gain is slight at best due to the heavy EM favor on scorch, the lack of high damaging tech 1 minmatar ammo, and the strength of void with the lower optimal penalty than anti-matter with no other downside besides tracking[which they all have, and blasters being only slightly behind autocannons in tracking] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.14 04:00:00 - [8] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 14/02/2007 03:57:39 Edited by: Mr Peanut on 14/02/2007 03:56:54 IMO, the main problems with Amarr: 1. EM damage sucks, considering that most of EVE's ships armor tank. 2. Lasers can't vary their damage types. (I know that hybrids can't either, but railguns have the best range and blasters have the best damage of any weapons.) 3. Lasers take tons of capacitor to operate. Missiles and projectiles don't. We are robbed of one bonus by the 10% reduction is laser capacitor use per level in order to compensate for this. The "built in damage bonus" of lasers doesn't work so well with EM damage and the terrible tracking of pulse lasers. The only thing that lasers are better at than any other weapon type is using beams with short-range crystals (thermal damage). 4. We have a lot of Khanid ships that are mainly only useful in PvP as tacklers. Examples are the Malediction, the Vengeance, and the Sacrilege. Not all Khanid ships are this way, but many are. (DON'T CHANGE MY CURSE!!!) Also, like many minmatar ships, many Khanid ships have split weapons systems and lend themselves slightly towards shield tanking. However, the Khanid ships usually lack the mid-slots to shield tank properly and still fulfill its crazy tackler role. Search "Khanid Mk. II" or something along those lines for more info. 5. Our BS keep getting outclassed in PvP. The Abaddon does awesome damage, but it can run into capacitor problems. Capacitor is key in long fights. With the introduction of tier 3 BS, the Apoc is completely outclassed in PvP. Finally, the Geddon is the only tier 1 (cheap) BS that is a good sniper, but the Megathron and Tempest are tier 2, and don't cost very much more now days. 6. The tracking on pulse lasers is awful.
Almarez	Posted - 2007.02.14 05:04:00 - [9] The problem with Amarr...well let me tell you. 1) Limited damage types and the insanely high resistances to the main damage type on the armor of all ships. This is especially true for T2 Minmitar ships. There is one that has like base 92.5 EM resistance on armor. This gives you basically one damage type, thermal, which is the secondary damage type of lasers. 2) Short range lasers (pulse) have terrible tracking. They are mid-ranged weapons but because of number 3 they are usually useless. 3) Limited flexibilty with few med-slots and not enough base speed to maintain mid-range required to make pulse lasers effective. 4) Downgrading to the next lowest gun to make them fit is a huge downgrade that usually leaves you hurting on the dps. Of these, I think 1 and 3 are the worse problems.
CrimsonSky Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 07:31:00 - [10] The problem with Amarr, in my opinion, is that they get nothing to make up for their lack of versatility. "But again, EVE is much less focused on combat and dangerous encounters than other online RPGs"-Gamespot.com
Warrio	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:32:00 - [11] Dirf: Please type the word 'Amarr' into the search function and look up all the old threads on this topic. No need to give the 'I can't fit a ship for PvP' crowd yet another place to vent their frustrations. Originally by: Ginger Magician Your corp and the other will be war declared in the next 24 hrs and destroyed.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:39:00 - [12] Originally by: Viktor Tessela For me, it comes down to the fact that every other race has a racial special that allows them to vary their damage heavily (Gallente get drones, minmatar get projectiles, caldari get missiles). Amarr, meanwhile, do EM damage with some secondary thermal. Aside from the arbitrator and its T2 variants, no drone ships. Half of our T2 ships are this weird 'retarded offspring of Caldari and Amarr' mix. All that, plus lasers take up disgusting amounts of cap in exchange for easily warded against damage in PVP. first you comjplaina bout a problem then you complain about the solution to that problem! Khanid ships give you the versatility you asked for, they give you change to vary part of your damage type Do you really expect to get a varied damage type with the same insade crude DPS that amar laser do? pfff compare how much crude dps a raven get when compared to a geddon.. or atempest comapred to an abbadon. You want varied damage type you will have to live with less dps as everyone else. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Natasha Kerensky The Company Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:54:00 - [13] Originally by: Viktor Tessela For me, it comes down to the fact that every other race has a racial special that allows them to vary their damage heavily (Gallente get drones, minmatar get projectiles, caldari get missiles). Amarr, meanwhile, do EM damage with some secondary thermal. Aside from the arbitrator and its T2 variants, no drone ships. Half of our T2 ships are this weird 'retarded offspring of Caldari and Amarr' mix. All that, plus lasers take up disgusting amounts of cap in exchange for easily warded against damage in PVP. the problem with amarr(or more specifically laserboats) is that you need an insane amount of SP to compete against other races with them. IF you get such SP, then you wont see a problem. your lasers will pewpew, your cap will hold, your armor will remain in one piece as your enemies explode screaming "WTF NERF LASERS" Quote: ...if on teh other hand you dont have that SP, you'll cry as your guns seem to bounce off anything remotely resembling an armor tank whilst nuking your cap faster than that dual rep tank you're attempting to run, before you get eaten alive by that 2 month old noob in a nosdomi because you have no cap to do anything, despite that injector. Prior to these two posts I felt that Amarr whiners were just that: whiners. But after reading these three paragraphs I can definately see why a boost is definately in order ASAP. I remember suggesting that base em resists on all ships may help fix this problem
Eoa Flos	Posted - 2007.02.14 09:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Viktor Tessela For me, it comes down to the fact that every other race has a racial special that allows them to vary their damage heavily (Gallente get drones, minmatar get projectiles, caldari get missiles). Amarr, meanwhile, do EM damage with some secondary thermal. Aside from the arbitrator and its T2 variants, no drone ships. Half of our T2 ships are this weird 'retarded offspring of Caldari and Amarr' mix. All that, plus lasers take up disgusting amounts of cap in exchange for easily warded against damage in PVP. first you comjplaina bout a problem then you complain about the solution to that problem! Khanid ships give you the versatility you asked for, they give you change to vary part of your damage type Do you really expect to get a varied damage type with the same insade crude DPS that amar laser do? pfff compare how much crude dps a raven get when compared to a geddon.. or atempest comapred to an abbadon. You want varied damage type you will have to live with less dps as everyone else. Thank you! Some sanity on the forums exists! I wouldn't say we have "insane crude dps", but still, I think the Devs know what they're doing and things are quite balanced enough. And what's wrong with taking more time to train? It just means Amarr takes a bit more commitment and patience to training up things. Why is that a bad thing?
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:55:00 - [15] The so called build in damage bonus does not exist anymore, that was in the old golden days. so the true problem is the cap use bonus, it is not justified anymore, and we still have it, if you halved cap use (that puts them in line with blasters) and replaced the cap use bonus with anything else, people would stop complaining. at least i would, then i would actually be happy about amarr... someone said something about raven dps, but forgets the lack of tracking, same dps AT ANY range, and power to vary damage type... hey, sure that sucks bad... guess no one flyes caldari for just that reason... It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.14 10:57:00 - [16] Switch EM and Thermal damages on lasers - voila :) N.F.F. Recruitment
ITTigerClawIK Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:09:00 - [17] Ok shall i just give you the quick and easy solution to ALL of our amarr probelms hu? Increase the Thermal and Em dmg up to insanely high levels.... there we go...make lassers Hugely more powerfull to basicly nullify that high EM and Therm resists to standard levels and there ya go... solved with no fuss now just wait for CCP to do summit... least they coudl do for takeing away our ECM ( i was NOT happy what so ever after that nerf CCP ) Sig (partially) nerfed. Only one image allowed, and that one image has to be under 400x120, and below 24,000 bytes. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Diehard Si UK1 Zero Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:11:00 - [18] Throw NOS on an amarr ships and its worse than any other race. Caldari and minmatar can still fire without cap, Gallente will struggle a bit more but have drone boats ( eg the domi ) which can still be effective. Amarrs main thing is supposed to be large armour and good tanking abilities. But the weapons kill so much cap that this reduces the effectiveness of it's repping completely. The only amarr ship i still fly now and then is the arbitrator, and thats cos I don't put lasers on it. -------------------------------------- Lets face it, people that use the word 'noob' are blatantly either 12 or with more friends on the internet than in real life!
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Dristra The so called build in damage bonus does not exist anymore, that was in the old golden days. so the true problem is the cap use bonus, it is not justified anymore, and we still have it, if you halved cap use (that puts them in line with blasters) and replaced the cap use bonus with anything else, people would stop complaining. at least i would, then i would actually be happy about amarr... someone said something about raven dps, but forgets the lack of tracking, same dps AT ANY range, and power to vary damage type... hey, sure that sucks bad... guess no one flyes caldari for just that reason... yes it does exist! Ammar guns do more damage than any other gun! Put ammar tychyons on a dominix and 1400MM in another dominix. The Tychyon one will out dps the other by a significant ammount (yes tychyons need more PG, but ammar ships do have far more PG than minmatar ones for exaclty that). Rysa got almost right. I think a single crystal with inverted thermal and EM like80 % thermal for 0% range modifier) would solve the issue If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Tisanta Amarr Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:15:00 - [20] Originally by: Ryysa Switch EM and Thermal damages on lasers - voila :) that wont work because it will still have 8 thermal 7 em.. for such ammo so either way it doesnt make a differnce and to add to the thread.. Amarr is fine how it is yes mallina was right in stating that we need alot of sp to pilot well which is true since you need lvl 5 ship commands to use lasers to their full but other than high SP requirments.. amarrian ships are the kings in combat.. being the last ships standing ect.. not only do they last longest but they hit hard as hell with tachyon II and enough PG to fit a full rack of nos/neuts it means they can wreck anyones almighty fitting. as people currently tank armour mostly EANM boosts EM resistance through the roof and this makes it harder for our guns to acheive.. but when you look at the actualy figures rather than assuming just because it's base is high that the result will be high its not true in many cases ( other than minmitar... damn those 92.5% resists!). take for example a domi with 2 eanm II and a dcu II and an explosive hardner.. the EM resistance will only be around 75-79% as will the others.. which begs the question what makes lasers so poor? having flown amarrian, gallente, and minmitar ships i have to say amarr is the better race... with decent tanking and the ability to unleash huge damage means they are ontop when it comes to combat.. being able to tank long enough for your mates to arrive is a very nice asset to have. --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Diehard Si Throw NOS on an amarr ships and its worse than any other race. Caldari and minmatar can still fire without cap, Gallente will struggle a bit more but have drone boats ( eg the domi ) which can still be effective. Amarrs main thing is supposed to be large armour and good tanking abilities. But the weapons kill so much cap that this reduces the effectiveness of it's repping completely. The only amarr ship i still fly now and then is the arbitrator, and thats cos I don't put lasers on it. try simply focusing more on passive armor, like 2x 1600 plates with 2 EANmII and DCU II 1 rep. Ships that use cap heavily need to use passive buffers not try to out rep enemy... others also have their cap problems. Gallente also use lots of cap. Minmatar must always use mWD ( a matar ship without MWD is dead meat) and that cuts 25% cap and using it two cycles tog et to correct range already leave us with only 60% of our cap to rep. Ammar phylosophy is Sit there.. and be a stone with huge laser firing capabilities! Its a role! If you try to fill minamtar role you will loose, but same way if you try to make a tempest fill that role it will loose. Absolutely nothing is more scary to my malestrom than an ammar battleship. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:21:00 - [22] Drone boats tank better. The reason, why I said to swap EM/Therm is if you look at some of the amarr T2 crystals, where EM is more dominant. If it was swapped around, then for example: Scorch M would do 18 therm 4 EM and conflag would do 16 therm 14 em. Thermal damage on average is very nice to be doing. This combined with the fact that lasers have the higher natural dps at med and long range than other guns, would give a lot of reason for using them more. It would be a slight boost. I don't think amarr need a very heavy boost, geddon/abso/zealot with a slight boost would start very heavily dominating gang mid-range engagements, instead of AC barrage users, and rightfully so. N.F.F. Recruitment
Tisanta Amarr Dragonfire Intergalactic Crusaders of Krom	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:30:00 - [23] Originally by: Ryysa Drone boats tank better. find me a drone boat that can tank a carrier and ill agree with you :).. though it cant be designed to tank a carrier it must be designed to do combat. --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 11:40:00 - [24] A t2 fitted nanodomi/phoon can tank a carrier indefinately.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Dristra The so called build in damage bonus does not exist anymore, that was in the old golden days. so the true problem is the cap use bonus, it is not justified anymore, and we still have it, if you halved cap use (that puts them in line with blasters) and replaced the cap use bonus with anything else, people would stop complaining. at least i would, then i would actually be happy about amarr... someone said something about raven dps, but forgets the lack of tracking, same dps AT ANY range, and power to vary damage type... hey, sure that sucks bad... guess no one flyes caldari for just that reason... yes it does exist! Ammar guns do more damage than any other gun! Put ammar tychyons on a dominix and 1400MM in another dominix. The Tychyon one will out dps the other by a significant ammount (yes tychyons need more PG, but ammar ships do have far more PG than minmatar ones for exaclty that). Rysa got almost right. I think a single crystal with inverted thermal and EM like80 % thermal for 0% range modifier) would solve the issue the tacyon is a oversized weapon, its a third artillery gun, and so should out dps the second minmatar one (btw, the 1400 is the lowest dps artillery of its class) the maealstrom has more pg than the abbadon... the tacyons are close to impossible to fit without sacrificing low slots. have you even looked at pulses? It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 12:56:00 - [26] Try to fit 1400 Tech 2 on a tempest without using a low slot also... yes the maelstrom has a ridiculowsly high PG, but that is cause it was clearly made to use fallof rigs to increase the range of the guns to effective fleet combat range. and 1400 are only lower dps at high skill levels, at lower levels with low skils damage bonus the 1400 is better. And stop with this tier 3 BS. Even tuxford compares the tychyon with the tier 2 of other races. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:08:00 - [27] Rigs are not really an argument there - you could also argue that the aba is "made" to use cap effeciency rigs for it's lasers. Also, even so (with max skills) a 1400mm with 3 weapon rigs needs the same grid as an tach, there is still the issue of the tank grid use. A LAR2 needs about 2000 more grid than a shield booster.
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:10:00 - [28] Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:09:33 Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:08:50 Originally by: Tisanta Snip as people currently tank armour mostly EANM boosts EM resistance through the roof and this makes it harder for our guns to acheive.. but when you look at the actualy figures rather than assuming just because it's base is high that the result will be high its not true in many cases ( other than minmitar... damn those 92.5% resists!). take for example a domi with 2 eanm II and a dcu II and an explosive hardner.. the EM resistance will only be around 75-79% as will the others.. which begs the question what makes lasers so poor? snip I am completeley amarr spec'd, im not far from command ships and will continue into carrier/etc. Amarr are a nice race they do well at mission running and the Cruse/Pilgrim/Zealot/Absolution are all very good ships. There are 2 things to note here tho: 1) Those are all T2 ships requiring some serious training time and SP investiment to make good, having lvl 3 skills just dont stand up to much when you only get 1 bonus on your ships. 2) As you mentioned in your post the EM resists of an EANMII+DCUII ship will be somewhere in the region 79% with lvl 4 compensations. The REASON this is bad is not because it's that high it's because no-other race have 1 dmg type perma-tanked. Let me explain a bit more: Lets say for example we take a standard BS resists: EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 60/10/25/40 Before we have added any modules the amarr are already dealing (on average) 50% less damage between the two types due to natual resists. Lets take galentte for example, Kin, Therm, They are dealing (assuming blasters/rails) about 32/33% less (average) damage due to natural resists. You can see where this would go with minmatar or caldari, they can pick and choose and most PVPers i know use Therm/Exp/Kin combinations, some use Exp/Kin, some Kin/Therm. So this would vary from setup to setup but at optimal average it would be about 17/18% natual resist. Now we add 2 EANMII and a DCU, We can assume lvl 4 compensations for this as any passive PVPer will likley have lvl 3/4 skills. Our new values look like: STD: EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 60/10/25/40 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 69.6/31.6/43/54.4 2 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 76.9/48/56.68/64.86 DCUII + 2 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 80.59/56.3/63.61/70.48 From the above it is obvious that you now have a natural resistance to Lasers with 80.5% and 70.5% resistances. Giving and average 75% resistance to Laser damage, and 65/66% against Galentte damage. Again i won't go into minmatar or caldari as they could be hitting with anything, assuming they hit for the best possible output (Exp/Kin) you have a average resist of 59/60%. Now its entirely possible that people would fit 1EANM,1Exp,1Kin,1Thermal hardener, bringing your resistances to a more equal level which would obviously benefit the amarr and go against every other race. The problem with amarr is complex and not just limited to resistances of your target. In short my opinion is a combination of these things results in amarr being the underdog race: 1) Natual EM+Therm resists coupled with the use of EANM+DCU. 2) Average cap size / recharge for such a cap dependant race. 3) Lack of versatility. 4) Huge SP requirements for the PVP capable Amarr Ships. 5) 1 Useless bonus on all (well 95%) of the ships Amarr down need a major "boost" they just need a bit of "tweaking". Giving amarr ships more cap and replacing the cap bonus with a damage bonus would fit it. So would reducing EM+Therm bounsus on hardners, so would increasing amarr cap size alot, there are multiple solutions it's just a case of which one CCP think is the most appropriate and least disruptive.
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Try to fit 1400 Tech 2 on a tempest without using a low slot also... yes the maelstrom has a ridiculowsly high PG, but that is cause it was clearly made to use fallof rigs to increase the range of the guns to effective fleet combat range. and 1400 are only lower dps at high skill levels, at lower levels with low skils damage bonus the 1400 is better. And stop with this tier 3 BS. Even tuxford compares the tychyon with the tier 2 of other races. Try fitting T1 Tachs on an Apoc?
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Ms Freak Originally by: Kagura Nikon Try to fit 1400 Tech 2 on a tempest without using a low slot also... yes the maelstrom has a ridiculowsly high PG, but that is cause it was clearly made to use fallof rigs to increase the range of the guns to effective fleet combat range. and 1400 are only lower dps at high skill levels, at lower levels with low skils damage bonus the 1400 is better. And stop with this tier 3 BS. Even tuxford compares the tychyon with the tier 2 of other races. Try fitting T1 Tachs on an Apoc? tried to check that you hasve more low slots to spare with PG modules? If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:28:00 - [31] Edited by: Aramendel on 14/02/2007 13:25:27 Originally by: Kagura Nikon tried to check that you hasve more low slots to spare with PG modules? Yes. ONE more An apoc with a full rack of tachs and a RCU2 has -1668.75 "free" grid. A pest with a full rack of 1400mms has 70 free grid. 2536 with 2 RCU2s on the poc and 2976 on the pest with 1 RCU2. So in the end both ships end up with the same amount of free low slots. The pest does not have a fitting disadvantage, if anything it has a slight advantage.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 13:55:00 - [32] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Do you really expect to get a varied damage type with the same insade crude DPS that amar laser do? pfff compare how much crude dps a raven get when compared to a geddon.. or atempest comapred to an abbadon. Blasters>Pulse>Autocannon>Beam>Rail>Artillery After ship bonuses/hardpoints: Blasters>Autocannons>Pulse>Beams>Rails>Artillery After Reasonable fitting: Blasters>Autocannons>Pulse>Rails>Beams>Artillery Should i get into what the tanks look like on those respective ships? Should i get into what respective shield and armor damage looks like on those respective ships? Should i go into what alpha-strike does for the viability of Artillery and its "usefull DPS?" Should i go into how i have ignored range, when it is a damage bonus? Should i go into how the range=dynamic increases the longer the ranges become? Should i go into how amarr have the lowest range of all the long range weaponry? Should i go into the horrors of downfitting lasers? P.S. RAW ship DPS of a raven compares very favorably to that of an Armageddon. The armageddon will cap somewhere around 1100 DPS and a raven will cap somwhere around 1050 with highslots to spare. A cruise raven will hit some 730 DPS, which with damage type selecting ability is quite strong. Especialy at the ranges at which it is possible. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:04:00 - [33] make the dps calculation per ship.. then you will see that the dual damage bonus on pest is only to compensate for 1 less turret. And to the previous poster. Exaclty what i wanted to say! They are equivalent tahcyon and 1400 are rougly equivalent when on their respective ships. Ammar are not at disadvantage on that one. The only place amamr are at severe disadvantage is fighting tech 2 minmatar ships. They are the best ones to take out ravens or Rokhs or any caldari and part of the minmatar (maesltrom melt in front of an geddon) If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:21:00 - [34] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2007 14:22:20 Originally by: Kagura Nikon make the dps calculation per ship.. then you will see that the dual damage bonus on pest is only to compensate for 1 less turret. And to the previous poster. Exaclty what i wanted to say! They are equivalent tahcyon and 1400 are rougly equivalent when on their respective ships. Ammar are not at disadvantage on that one. The only place amamr are at severe disadvantage is fighting tech 2 minmatar ships. They are the best ones to take out ravens or Rokhs or any caldari and part of the minmatar (maesltrom melt in front of an geddon) No the double damage bonus on the tempest more than makes up for the loss of a turret. 6/.75 = 8. Or 6 x 1.25 = 7.5 The dual damage bonus on the rupture is for 1 less turret. It overcompensates on a pest. It also ignores what low fitting and extra high slots allow you to do[2 extra NOS? That is like an amageddon with 9.5 high slots and the ability to fit them! Or 2 extra missile launchers? Even more pew pew!] Also, no 1400s are not equlvelent to tachyons in the slightest bit. And yes Amarr are very much disadvantaged by the fitting on their long range ships, with the possible exception of their Tech II ships. As well, amarr are at a disadvantage fighting anything that is not a shield tanker or an armor tri-hardener. Since tri-hardeners pretty much no longer exist due to CPU issues and relative strength and since many shield tankers fit specific EM protection Amarr are at a disadvantage in the majority of situations. ed: In the specific example of the pest, it has nothing with which it will need to fit for 70 PG, so a tachyon Apoc will be 1 low slot and 1 mid slot behind a tempest. An Armageddon will be 2 med slots behind a tempest. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:27:00 - [35] When did you saw a 1400 tempest using nos to anything? Now make your calcualtiosn and see if the 7.5 1400 are really superior to the tychyons. And that is only at level 5!!! cause with battleships level 4 the ammar batleships way outdamage the tempest Tachyons have good alpha as well.. we we do not use cap, ok good for us. But we have bad tracking and our real damaged is gimped cause any real combat situation is outer optimal. So guns are rougly balanced. Now put one ship agaisnt the other and you will see they are rougly equivalent ( the decisive factor will be the skills) And do not forget that the most common BB is the raven a shield tanker (EVEN IN 0.0 they are pretty common and a tasty target since shield tank t2 equip is more expensive loot) The main ammar problem are the amarian players. The ask for versatile ships.. they get khanid.. and when they get they complain!!! If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Denrace Amarr JEM Industries	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:37:00 - [36] Edited by: Denrace on 14/02/2007 14:35:03 I fly a maxed out Zealot and Absolution. Completely maxed skills wise, full T2 fit. But I find lasers to do very badly against nearly everything. The Pulse lasers hit literally nothing, and because they eat so much grid, it leaves you with a limited tank. Plus the cap use of the guns and lack of decent mid slots of EW, tackling or speed/cap injecting, I end up with a shockingly predictable and so-so ship. Same with the Absolution. Anyone who tells you these pwn is obviously not taking into account how much more pewtastic the other commandship are. Again, Pulses hit jack, and beams are so heavy on grid I could cry. Meanwhile, Minmatar and Gallente go PEW PEW FREAKIN' PEW and I'm stuck going..miss, miss, miss...no cap. Nighthawk also lays waste to any Amarr equivalent. As for all the other ships, they perform similarly bad. I have regretted training Amarr ever since I bought the "Amarr Frigate" skill. I have now trained Caldari and wont ever go back :) Den ________________________________________
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Kagura Nikon When did you saw a 1400 tempest using nos to anything? Now make your calcualtiosn and see if the 7.5 1400 are really superior to the tychyons. And that is only at level 5!!! cause with battleships level 4 the ammar batleships way outdamage the tempest Tachyons have good alpha as well.. we we do not use cap, ok good for us. But we have bad tracking and our real damaged is gimped cause any real combat situation is outer optimal. So guns are rougly balanced. Now put one ship agaisnt the other and you will see they are rougly equivalent ( the decisive factor will be the skills) And do not forget that the most common BB is the raven a shield tanker (EVEN IN 0.0 they are pretty common and a tasty target since shield tank t2 equip is more expensive loot) The main ammar problem are the amarian players. The ask for versatile ships.. they get khanid.. and when they get they complain!!! With nos/missiles that i was specifically refering to autocannons and not Arties. With tachyons Armageddons do do a lot more damage than Arty Tempests. Tempets, being up two low slots[3 sensor boosters, 3 tracking, 3 damage] are easily able to make up the difference in a damage control. As well, the Geddon is still outranged due to falloff. If the Geddon fits a DCII, he is outranged in absolute. LOL @ raven target. Yes you have a slight advantage when shooting ratting ravens in a gang. That is like saying you have an advantage when playing against the retard squad. Yea, it is technically an advantage, but it is one that doesnt matter because ratting setups arent a threat anyway. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
RuSBO Amarr SolaR KillerS	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:55:00 - [38] So one more trouble with amarrians guns: Lets see only damage types: Conflagration L : EM=28\THERM=28 Base shield damage:50.4 Base armor damage 29.4 Multifrequency L: EM=28\THERM=20 Base shield damage:44.0 Base armor damage 24.2 Scorch L : EM=36\THERM=8 Base Shield damage:42.4 Base armor damage 19.6 ---------- Void L :KIN=28\THERM=28 Base shield damage:39.2 Base armor damage 39.2 Antimatter L :KIN=28\THERM=20 Base shield damage:32.8 Base armor damage 34.0 Null L :KIN=20\THERM=24 Base shield damage:31.2 Base armor damage 30.6 So this is not secret - in solo\small\medium mobile gang PVP - armor tanking in 95%. and we see base EM damage + weak armor damage is mading pulses unusable in close PVP. And on the end _______ Mega Pulse Laser II : ROF=7.88 DAMMOD=3.6 (Effective DPS MODIFIER is 0.457 (dammod divided by rof) Heavy Ion Blaster II : ROF=4.50 DAMMOD=3.375 (Effective DPS MODIFIER is 0.75) Heavy Neutron Blaster II:ROF=5.25 DAMMOD=4.2 (Effective DPS MODIFIER is 0.8) So where balance between races here? =) Mbee you say - amarrians pulses have good optimal range - its crap , closerange pvp is on warp disruption optimal - ~20km and otherwise - amarrians ships too slow for keepeng safe distance.. __________________ NPC Hunter.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 14:59:00 - [39] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/02/2007 14:56:00 Rus, use large blasters to compare too, not med blasters. smaller guns have higher dam mod/rof numbers ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Blue Azur	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:32:00 - [40] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Diehard Si Throw NOS on an amarr ships and its worse than any other race. Caldari and minmatar can still fire without cap, Gallente will struggle a bit more but have drone boats ( eg the domi ) which can still be effective. Amarrs main thing is supposed to be large armour and good tanking abilities. But the weapons kill so much cap that this reduces the effectiveness of it's repping completely. The only amarr ship i still fly now and then is the arbitrator, and thats cos I don't put lasers on it. try simply focusing more on passive armor, like 2x 1600 plates with 2 EANmII and DCU II 1 rep. Ships that use cap heavily need to use passive buffers not try to out rep enemy... others also have their cap problems. Gallente also use lots of cap. Minmatar must always use mWD ( a matar ship without MWD is dead meat) and that cuts 25% cap and using it two cycles tog et to correct range already leave us with only 60% of our cap to rep. Ammar phylosophy is Sit there.. and be a stone with huge laser firing capabilities! Its a role! If you try to fill minamtar role you will loose, but same way if you try to make a tempest fill that role it will loose. Absolutely nothing is more scary to my malestrom than an ammar battleship. Passive armor is something non existant. Armor does not regenerate by it it's self.
Tibrius Archer hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:32:00 - [41] I see a lot of n00by chars posting stuff here. You really need a good yr 1.5+ PvP and a lot of solo battleship kills/deaths under your belt to get the picture. I thought I knew it all at one point but I was wrong. I have recently been experiemtenting with a NOS domi after loosing a expesive faction megathron fit to NOS. I DOMINATE. I have frapsed encouters of me killing multiple battleships at once. Amarr and non nos domi Gallante DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE why? My NOS+Neuts can stop them firing after 40 seconds or so. A raven with good T2 torps could kill me even though he is drained lasting on his sheer hitpoints. I can stop gallante and amarr firing fullstop the ultimate EW. Particulay amarr. I can NOS/neut indefinatly while cap stable. NO. I reapeat NO Amarr ship can stop me. I can always stop them firing before I am in 50% armor then the rest is history. My main worry when facing amarr in my NOS domi is getting the POD. Amarr and gallante to some extent need a way to still do damage while drained particularly amarr as they lack good drone bays. its just too easy to switch off a gallante/Amarr ship. ***************************************** "Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern"
Blue Azur	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Dristra The so called build in damage bonus does not exist anymore, that was in the old golden days. so the true problem is the cap use bonus, it is not justified anymore, and we still have it, if you halved cap use (that puts them in line with blasters) and replaced the cap use bonus with anything else, people would stop complaining. at least i would, then i would actually be happy about amarr... someone said something about raven dps, but forgets the lack of tracking, same dps AT ANY range, and power to vary damage type... hey, sure that sucks bad... guess no one flyes caldari for just that reason... yes it does exist! Ammar guns do more damage than any other gun! Put ammar tychyons on a dominix and 1400MM in another dominix. The Tychyon one will out dps the other by a significant ammount (yes tychyons need more PG, but ammar ships do have far more PG than minmatar ones for exaclty that). Rysa got almost right. I think a single crystal with inverted thermal and EM like80 % thermal for 0% range modifier) would solve the issue Tachyons are a Tier 3 Weapons and to fit 8 of them on a Abaddon you need engineeiring lv5 and some lv4 Advaced Weapon Upgrades . So you won't see a practical Tachyon Laser boat . BTW Tell me which T1 ship has the most DPS Blastertron or Tachyon Abaddon
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines Miners With Attitude	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:42:00 - [43] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Try to fit 1400 Tech 2 on a tempest without using a low slot also... yes the maelstrom has a ridiculowsly high PG, but that is cause it was clearly made to use fallof rigs to increase the range of the guns to effective fleet combat range. and 1400 are only lower dps at high skill levels, at lower levels with low skils damage bonus the 1400 is better. And stop with this tier 3 BS. Even tuxford compares the tychyon with the tier 2 of other races. n00b much ? Signature removed. Please choose one image, and keep it within the 24000 bytes limit. -Ivan K
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Blue Azur BTW Tell me which T1 ship has the most DPS Blastertron or Tachyon Abaddon Go back to your little DPS spreadsheet and compare range plz.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.14 15:43:00 - [45] Originally by: Blue Azur Passive armor is something non existant. Armor does not regenerate by it it's self. Buffer tanks work quite well and typically better for high damage encounters than rep tanks. Unfortounatly, except on the battleship level, amarr do not have the powergrid to fit plates with their guns. Since downsizing is so useless due to the typically higher returns on damage and downsizing when switching to autocannons or electron blasters, Amarr do better plated when fitting blasters and better repping when fitting autocannons. I.E. plates dont fit for all but battleships. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:01:00 - [46] Amarr is fine, move along. Logical explanation: -they won't be nerfed with nano nerf -they can't have passive shield tanks -they suck so bad that they don't cost much -arguably best complex gankers once you fit 6 cap mods on and actually can sustain guns For Op: Amarr isn't bad race, only worst at everything from all 4 races. That's only problem tbfh. Few examples: PVE: tanking doesn't work on anything unless you only fit for cap & tanking and sacrifice all damage. Rigs help, but not THAT much. ACs are option till you train for maelstrom. Even absolution that looks good on paper as pve ship, it has insane cap problems, 2 rechargers and cap rig and it barely sustains guns & 1 rep. PVP "small" no grid/cpu to support tanking, cap, some EW and guns. You will fail either at cap, damage or tank. PVP fleets: impossible to get good fitting without using 3 pg rigs (150mil) or resorting to paperbag setups with 0 "survival" gear. Oh abaddon can actually fit guns and have good dps on paper. Paper calculations usually don't include cap calculations though. Pe... oh wtf where is my cap... There is nothing right with amarr tbh. -------- .....
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.14 16:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Blue Azur Passive armor is something non existant. Armor does not regenerate by it it's self. Buffer tanks work quite well and typically better for high damage encounters than rep tanks. Unfortounatly, except on the battleship level, amarr do not have the powergrid to fit plates with their guns. Since downsizing is so useless due to the typically higher returns on damage and downsizing when switching to autocannons or electron blasters, Amarr do better plated when fitting blasters and better repping when fitting autocannons. I.E. plates dont fit for all but battleships. that i have to agree. On the smaller ships the Ammar have some harder issues, specially T1 cruisers. And no you dont need 1.5 years with lots of kills on your belt. Cause no one has 1.5 years with each race. You just need good understandings of game mechanics. My previous char (played it for about 10 monhts) was ammar, and I had pretty good results with my Apoc ( i think the geddon is too bad looking to use...) As long as you are not stupid of trying to use it in any role whre it is not intended. And someone that say that passive armor dont exist or is irrelevant just showed that have no comprehension of real PV and think it is just PVE against players. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
DanMck Amarr Rionnag Alba Veni Vidi Vici .	Posted - 2007.02.14 21:16:00 - [48] Edited by: DanMck on 14/02/2007 21:12:39 f Originally by: Ms Freak Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:09:33 Edited by: Ms Freak on 14/02/2007 13:08:50 Originally by: Tisanta Snip as people currently tank armour mostly EANM boosts EM resistance through the roof and this makes it harder for our guns to acheive.. but when you look at the actualy figures rather than assuming just because it's base is high that the result will be high its not true in many cases ( other than minmitar... damn those 92.5% resists!). take for example a domi with 2 eanm II and a dcu II and an explosive hardner.. the EM resistance will only be around 75-79% as will the others.. which begs the question what makes lasers so poor? snip I am completeley amarr spec'd, im not far from command ships and will continue into carrier/etc. Amarr are a nice race they do well at mission running and the Cruse/Pilgrim/Zealot/Absolution are all very good ships. There are 2 things to note here tho: 1) Those are all T2 ships requiring some serious training time and SP investiment to make good, having lvl 3 skills just dont stand up to much when you only get 1 bonus on your ships. 2) As you mentioned in your post the EM resists of an EANMII+DCUII ship will be somewhere in the region 79% with lvl 4 compensations. The REASON this is bad is not because it's that high it's because no-other race have 1 dmg type perma-tanked. Let me explain a bit more: Lets say for example we take a standard BS resists: EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 60/10/25/40 Before we have added any modules the amarr are already dealing (on average) 50% less damage between the two types due to natual resists. Lets take galentte for example, Kin, Therm, They are dealing (assuming blasters/rails) about 32/33% less (average) damage due to natural resists. You can see where this would go with minmatar or caldari, they can pick and choose and most PVPers i know use Therm/Exp/Kin combinations, some use Exp/Kin, some Kin/Therm. So this would vary from setup to setup but at optimal average it would be about 17/18% natual resist. Now we add 2 EANMII and a DCU, We can assume lvl 4 compensations for this as any passive PVPer will likley have lvl 3/4 skills. Our new values look like: STD: EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 60/10/25/40 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 69.6/31.6/43/54.4 2 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 76.9/48/56.68/64.86 DCUII + 2 EANM II EM/Exp/Kin/Therm 80.59/56.3/63.61/70.48 From the above it is obvious that you now have a natural resistance to Lasers with 80.5% and 70.5% resistances. Giving and average 75% resistance to Laser damage, and 65/66% against Galentte damage. Again i won't go into minmatar or caldari as they could be hitting with anything, assuming they hit for the best possible output (Exp/Kin) you have a average resist of 59/60%. Now its entirely possible that people would fit 1EANM,1Exp,1Kin,1Thermal hardener, bringing your resistances to a more equal level which would obviously benefit the amarr and go against every other race. The problem with amarr is complex and not just limited to resistances of your target. In short my opinion is a combination of these things results in amarr being the underdog race: 1) Natual EM+Therm resists coupled with the use of EANM+DCU. 2) Average cap size / recharge for such a cap dependant race. 3) Lack of versatility. 4) Huge SP requirements for the PVP capable Amarr Ships. 5) 1 Useless bonus on all (well 95%) of the ships Amarr down need a major "boost" they just need a bit of "tweaking". Giving amarr ships more cap and replacing the cap bonus with a damage bonus would fit it. So would reducing EM+Therm bounsus on hardners, so would increasing amarr cap size alot, there are multiple solutions it's just a case of which one CCP think is the most appropriate and least disruptive. qft , this is the problem last patch they removed the extra thermal damage from the tech II crystals ?? please help us
Dirf Olep	Posted - 2007.02.14 21:39:00 - [49] Originally by: Warrio Dirf: Please type the word 'Amarr' into the search function and look up all the old threads on this topic. No need to give the 'I can't fit a ship for PvP' crowd yet another place to vent their frustrations. I would like to thank you for being the only person to flame or post something completely useless. To everybody else? I've read all your posts and found them very informative and I just want to thank everybody who contributed and continue to contribute to this thread if you so wish. I've not gotten to the PvP part of the Amarr, but so far the PvE has been great =P

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