|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 01:25:43 -
[1] - Quote
@Fozzie: If Drifters pile up when spawned but not killed, will they also warp into other combat sites to help their sleeper comrades while those are fighting against a player pve fleet? If this is the case, then a system could be easily made unusable for months by players (residents by accident or attackers/disrupters with malicious intent) completing one or more sites and letting the Drifter escape. The escaped Drifter would then start helping the sleepers in other sites making each new site much more difficult than the last one.
Meaning that if the residents for example tried to kill the Drifter in one site but failed and it escapes, they will go against two Drifters in the next site and fail even harder, and after that they can basically forget about doing PvE in their hole and move out. How will you stop this vicious cycle from happening?
I also share the concerns that the changes could make capitals less useful in high-class pve which would also harm pvp corps hunting for cap ganks. However I'm optimistic that this new concept could even improve the situation if done right. Now, usually 2 dreads and 2 carriers are used to escalate, but the one carrier only warps in at range to trigger his wave and immediately leaves again, and the other carrier often does not triage. So in most cases, gankers can catch two dreads and in the best case also the one carrier but rarely all four capitals.
If the new drifter now encourages the use of at least four committed capitals or even more, then it could be an improvement also for the hunters. And if the bearing fleet uses subcapitals instead surely this subcap fleet will have to be quite large and/or shiny, so also a worthwile target for attackers.
So there is good potential here for improvements all around, it will just depend on execution :)
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 02:21:24 -
[2] - Quote
No, because this is still a MMO and the consequences would be too dire with too little effort by the 'system poopers'.
If one Drifter is a real challenge even to an established high-class corp, as it is intended to be, then this naturally means that two Drifters are a HUGE challenge and three or more are impossible to beat.
And an attacker would only need a few minutes at any time of the day to toxify the system. No corp can or should be expected to guard their whole system 24/7 to stop mass Drifter spawning.
And even without malicious attackers, in a big corp there can always be some newbies or people just make mistakes and in 10 minutes of fail they could unintentionally toxify the whole system for their 70 corp mates who maybe were sleeping that time, that is not balanced.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 07:44:25 -
[3] - Quote
I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:11:21 -
[4] - Quote
Mena en Distel wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:I dont get the hyperbole. If the drifter is balanced for capitals, having capital HP and damage, it would take forever to kill with subcaps, or a lot of subcaps. Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? No, because it's terribly inefficient and drags down ISK/hour. Dread have dpsa same for 2-3 rattlesnake at this moment on sisi. do you think that a problem for using 3 rattlesnake?
I doubt that 2-3 rattles have same dps as a dread. Maybe with the new dread subcap weapons, but the escalations and the drifter are going to be capital-sized so you would fit the capital weapons on your dread. No way 3 rattles will do the same damage.
But even if they did... to field three rattles you need three people or three accounts that have to be plexed. So yes, for efficient farming people will still use dreads. Three typical wh rattles are not even that much cheaper than one t2-fit ratting dread.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 14:43:43 -
[5] - Quote
Jack Hayson wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Same as the escalation sleepers now. People could use caps just for triggering and farm just with subs now, but do they? Yes, people do precisely that. Just find a red giant system and watch them krab. The proposed changes will just disincentive using caps for PvE even more.
Why "even more"? People dont run escalation sites with subcap kitchen sink fleets now. Or those who do get absolutely crappy income from it because it's very low-efficiency and has terrible payout per pilot. Soloing c2 sites with a BC is much more profitable.
Red Giant is a special case and I agree it should be nerfed.
Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it GÇô same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.
As long as the drifter can be killed with a few capitals much more efficiently than with a few subcaps, there shouldn't be a problem. Capitals will be useful and thus, they will be fielded.
Even better, since the dreads will shoot sleepers that are capital-sized, they can be properly fitted for capital warfare and not for tracking. This means they will not be such easy prey for gankers fielding gank dreads. Now the ratting dreads will be more dangerous defenders.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
718
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 09:15:08 -
[6] - Quote
Alexhandr Shkarov wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:
Everyone gets hung up on the measly payout for the new escalations when the big prize is the drifter with 350m payout. The important thing here is that to kill the drifter efficiently we will have to kill it with caps. The drifter will be the reason to bring caps. Because without caps we need a much larger number of subcaps to kill it GÇô same as it is now perfectly possible to kill the escalation waves with only subcaps but it is not done because it's not efficient.
Frankly speaking I do not believe that the Drifter Boss has any place in sites that are NOT fully escalated.
I guess the idea is to encourage people to do more pve in the static instead of just at home. If the new system is properly balanced, we should see groups running non-escalated c5 sites in their static with specialized subcap fleets to kill the juicy drifters. This should make less ISK/hour than running escalated sites at home with capital support, but is evened out by the fact that you basically have an unlimited supply of sites, so paradise for bears who really like to pve. And good for gankers because more pve fleets to hunt. And those will be out of home so bigger chance to catch them before they get back to their forcefields... or (soon) Citadel.
edit: And because these pve fleets will have to be quite strong, and even be able to point stuff, they will be quite formidable foes for the gankers. This may even encourage mostly-pvp groups to do more group pve because the pve fleet is not just sitting ducks anymore. It is already a half-pvp fleet and can be fully converted with a few more ships. Maybe it will even be possible to effectively make ISK while baiting for fights at the same time.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
719
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 20:08:26 -
[7] - Quote
I just tested doing C5 Core Garrisons with two Paladins. At the end of the site suddenly this Apollo Tyrannos shows up... I had forgotten about it :D
Anyway, the drifter seemed quite passive. For a minute or so it neither warped off nor attacked. I guess he had no reason to warp off because he didn't feel threatened. I warped off to not get my testing setup blown to bits after one site.
Later I started another site. At the end of one wave the drifter from the previous site showed up. At first it seemed passive again but then it started orbiting me at insanely high speeds (950 m/s). And it seemed to have a really small sig too, my battleship guns missed it all the time. I guess this cannot be the final state, no capital would have any chance to hit the drifter as it is now. Even my light drones occasionally missed it...
I guess I could have killed it, it didnt appear to self-repair. But it was such a slow grind that I gave up and just killed the regular sleepers. After I finished the site... no second drifter appeared. Probably also not how it will be on TQ.
After a while I noticed the drifter did actually attack. One attack came from "drifter response battleship" and did 4k volleys, hard hits but easy enough to repair with no other sleepers present.
But there was another attack from 'Apollo Tyrannos' and this one without exception missed me completely although my Paladins obviously were stationary. I assume this is the anti-capital weapon. If it stays as it is now, it appears it cannot hit subcaps at all.
Of course this is just Sisi so does not have to mean anything. Still I would expect the drifter to be at least somewhat close to how it's going to be on TQ. But the current behavior where not even battleship guns can hit it properly does not make much sense, so maybe not...
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
719
|
Posted - 2016.04.10 21:22:51 -
[8] - Quote
As I said, he had one weapon that always missed me, I'm guessing that was his doomsday.
Currently the drifter is not probable and not on dscan.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
721
|
Posted - 2016.04.12 09:25:26 -
[9] - Quote
Lyra Jedran wrote:So has anyone actually tried killing the new drifter BS with subcaps? Yes, I killed one. It took forever to kill but was easy... because it didnt shoot back ;)
So the question is, when can we expect a version of the drifter on Sisi that resembles the final form? What's there now can definitely not be even close to what we'll get on TQ.
Right now also the drifter does not actually come to the help of his comrades. I was at first confused because the drifter spawns not at the end of the site, but in the middle of the second reinforcement wave. I didnt notice this before because the drifter does not move or attack until it is aggressed. This also obviously is not how it's going to be on TQ.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
|
Posted - 2016.04.19 22:16:47 -
[10] - Quote
Hmm, seems I got the broken drifter again. Just did another c5 anom and after completing the site, the new structure decloaked. I switched one of my two Paladins to tackling Loki, then attacked the structure and drifter appeared. He moved to orbit my Paladin but otherwise does nothing. No neuts, no damage. I'm shooting him for 12 minutes now and I guess it will take another 10-15 minutes to take him down. So significant HP buff from last time.
To the other posters: Were you killed by the drifter or before by cap escalation sleepers? Because my drifter still doesn't do ****...
edit: Woah, this drifter has shields, not just armor. His name is [no messageID312281] :D
edit2: Unexpected turn of events! After doing absolutely nothing for 15 minutes, when I brought him down to 20% shields, he suddenly started neuting and attacking. Within seconds he had sucked my Paladin dry and another 45 seconds or so after I was dead.
I guess it still isn't intended behavior that the drifter is so passive at first... but yeah, no chance to kill it with a few subcaps now.
.
|
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 07:01:07 -
[11] - Quote
But I also wonder about the GÇ£target for capitalsGÇ£ part. The drifter appears to be way too fast for it.
What I noticed was that it completely ignored my Loki and aggressed the Paladin 100% of the time. Maybe just coincidence... if not, that could be the way to go... put some Capital as a Tank to absorp the neuts and damage while tackling and webbing it with something small.
Seems easily abusable though... capital could be again just one and the real work is done by small cheap ships fit for max dps.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
727
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 08:43:59 -
[12] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I love how mysterious and channelling wormhole space is about to become . Think i'll buy me a few Rattlesnakes... Cool game design guys! This is really inspired!
No way a rattle survives the drifter in its current form.
Before the last iteration there were at least two different drifters. I wonder if that is still so? Don't have time to make more tests atm.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 11:01:18 -
[13] - Quote
Maybe. That would be a situation basically unchanged from what we have now, right?
If there are no changes to capital/hole mass to allow more caps through, then any static-ratting fleet will be limited to a single cap anyway.
I wonder if there is a good setup to kill the drifter with a single capital. Like a dread that can survive one siege cycle and then be capped and repped up by a logi fleet before it enters the next cycle. Then we may see mixed ratting fleets with a dread plus many logistics and some tacklers, or a triage Faux with many dps subcaps. Sounds like a somewhat fun way to run sites, and a reasonably attractive target for a gank. Which may turn out to be a proper fight because the ratting fleet can be pretty good for a pvp situation too.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 13:33:20 -
[14] - Quote
So you killed it with just two rattlesnakes? That surprises me. How much does one of those rattles cost?
What was the name of the drifter? To check if I got the same one.
And yes, I assume the drifter is NOT supposed to be killed (efficiently) with subcaps.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 14:15:26 -
[15] - Quote
So our tester here fought the drifter with two ships that cost 800m apiece plus 2.2b worth of implants in each of the pods. That is 6b on field, enabling him to kill a 300m NPC in 45 minutes.
So where was the problem again? ^^
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
728
|
Posted - 2016.04.20 14:37:34 -
[16] - Quote
So even if you could achieve the same result with 4 alts in ships that cost only 2b total. That is still just a 300m npc in 45 minutes. That is 400m ISK/hour split four ways, either 4 chars or 4 players, doesn't matter, that is 4 accounts that need to be paid or plexed. That is ****** income, worse than some other known methods that require only 1-2 chars. So surely not imbalanced.
And it would mean that you sit in the same site for over an hour. if you see new incoming hole after 35 minutes shooting the drifter you go away with nothing.
And people doing it with many alts will be especially vulnerable to ganks because they are very distracted.
.
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
730
|
Posted - 2016.04.21 11:01:25 -
[17] - Quote
I get your point. I guess the problem is that some combinations of faction ships and high-end faction and deadspace modules are so powerful that these ships are as good as or even better than a capital.
But as long as they are also as expensive, maybe that doesn't really matter. But prices fluctuate of course... I think rattles are much cheaper now than they used to be?
.
|
|
|
|