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Leonid Ragulin
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2016.04.07 02:01:13 -
[1] - Quote
Read this on youtube:
DUST failed not because of cheating or because of PS3s become obsolete.
It failed because its biggest selling point, interaction with EVE, was non existent.
Instead of tying in with the true battleground of EVE, ie Nullsec, they went for a tie in with a little-used, considered a joke by most players, worthless feature of the game - Factional Warfare. For those that dont play eve, factional warfare is regarded as 'pvp lite', 'newbie pvp', and the like. It is merely a place people can fight in small-size ships and earn 'loyalty points' that can be traded in for bigger ships of average power, that noone in the real PVP universe uses. Heard of the current 'Money Badgers Alliance vs The Imperium' war? Exactly 0 ships from Factional Warfare have been used or destroyed in what is now the biggest conflict in Eve, and hence in all of gaming history. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1722
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Posted - 2016.04.07 05:44:53 -
[2] - Quote
AFAIK FW was test area for DUST interaction. But for some reason integration never went further
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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pushdogg
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
151
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Posted - 2016.04.07 05:57:54 -
[3] - Quote
Leonid Ragulin wrote:Read this on youtube:
DUST failed not because of cheating or because of PS3s become obsolete.
It failed because its biggest selling point, interaction with EVE, was non existent.
Instead of tying in with the true battleground of EVE, ie Nullsec, they went for a tie in with a little-used, considered a joke by most players, worthless feature of the game - Factional Warfare. For those that dont play eve, factional warfare is regarded as 'pvp lite', 'newbie pvp', and the like. It is merely a place people can fight in small-size ships and earn 'loyalty points' that can be traded in for bigger ships of average power, that noone in the real PVP universe uses. Heard of the current 'Money Badgers Alliance vs The Imperium' war? Exactly 0 ships from Factional Warfare have been used or destroyed in what is now the biggest conflict in Eve, and hence in all of gaming history.
You seem riled up, I've never heard fw called "PvP lite" or "newbie PvP". Actually fw is where you can get PvP without jumping 20 systems into null for every bear to dock up the second you land in an Intel channel.
Have you ever tried fw? And really I'm glad CCP is dedicating their resources to the flagship game(read:Eve) because if they dedicated that much time to a game that is free to play, I would ask that they get their head checked. |
Nicole Duvolle
Push Research and Development
0
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Posted - 2016.04.07 06:03:23 -
[4] - Quote
CCP has started plenty of little projects and had some of them fail. Many companies do it. Just look at Google. |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
5004
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Posted - 2016.04.07 06:37:02 -
[5] - Quote
Nicole Duvolle wrote:CCP has started plenty of little projects and had some of them fail. Many companies do it. Just look at Google.
I wouldn't call DUST 514 or the 23 million $ World of Darkness MMO "little projects". Valkyrie started as a little porject and Gunjack is a diminutive game, and their success relies on a new technology which faces its own challenges.
Now, CCP got serious money for VR some months ago, but what will come from that is uncertain, starting with VR itself. So far, CCP is a one trick pony which has only had one large success in the videogame industry and has failed even expanding that success into a different demographic (Walking in Stations anyone?). |
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
78
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Posted - 2016.04.07 06:53:36 -
[6] - Quote
From an in-universe standpoint, in my personal opinion, the DUST 514 environment is irrelevant. The ships we fly around in could reduce the surface of a sizable portion of a planet to molten slag. Who needs ground troops? Planetary security, and battles over planetary soverignty would rightly take place in orbit, or at least somewhere in system. Just because the current orbital bombardment functionality is limited in scope doesn't mean it should be...
From a non RP standpoint, I'll be happy when the dustbunnies are out of local chat, many of them just sit there and spew venom at each other, the game seems to be populated by enraged 12 year olds. That and I can't hide them from the station population list like I can in local. |
Geronimo McVain
McVain's Minning and Exploration Inc
20
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Posted - 2016.04.07 09:58:04 -
[7] - Quote
What I would really like would be an integration of the DUST engine into EVE.
They have the Engine for a shooter and the out of Pod game is near to non exitent. Maybe there are other ways to conquere a citadel then blowing it up? Bars, Dancing, Meeting Friends with Avatars, Parties, Strip-Clubs, Stock-Exchange, restaurants, Gang-Wars in Citadels, Infiltration and Sabotage. IMHO EVE need some brushing up, the presentation is as thrilling as an Exel spreadsheet for the most complex game on planet Earth. So you will maybe make some shady deals in a sleezy bar or sell corporate stocks in a lush restaurant. |
Rovinia
Exotic Dancers Union SONS of BANE
491
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Posted - 2016.04.07 10:43:04 -
[8] - Quote
The Eve - Dust interaction failed the moment it came out on another platform. That made meaningful interaction between the games nearly impossible.
In Eve, your ship or other assets are worth something. That made fun concepts like ship boarding and fighting over PI colonies a no-go for Eve players. You really don't want to look at a progression bar while some console Players board you precious dreadnought and there is nothing you can do against it.
It would be different if something like that would be integrated in the eve client (like the captains quarter button) and i can defend the ship myself ("come, get some!"). |
Pandora Carrollon
Kingsman Tailors
132
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Posted - 2016.04.07 15:11:07 -
[9] - Quote
I would not have tied my horse to a console. While it can be successful, it generally isn't unless it expands to other platforms. DUST could have been PS3 specific for a year, then should have moved to XBOX, STEAM and PC. It also should have had tighter integration with EVE and been a common site in at least 1 out of 3 systems.
Now that it is dead, it should be resurrected directly into EVE and become the foundation for a First or Third person experience for the game. This would bring it up to being on Par with similar space MMO's. It might also inject a much needed story telling line for the ship and industry side of EVE.
Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game
-- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
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Darth Carbonite Tokila
Random Gunz The-Office
11
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Posted - 2016.04.07 16:13:11 -
[10] - Quote
To say Dust "failed" because it didn't revolve around your favorite area of space is short sighted and incorrect.
Dust ended up being a profitable venture and will have a small hardcore following until the end, but people still call it a failure. Why is that?
Because of poor internal leadership that reached too far and tried too much without focusing on the actual game itself. Faction Warfare, Planetary Conquest, Player Markets, Trading... A scattershot of features that had nothing to do with the core gameplay loop.
Going forward, the focus will be on making an awesome game first, catering to capsuleer dreams second.
Member of CPM2 Dustside
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Salt Foambreaker
Greedy Pirates
19
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Posted - 2016.04.07 16:22:48 -
[11] - Quote
Rovinia wrote:The Eve - Dust interaction failed the moment it came out on another platform. That made meaningful interaction between the games nearly impossible.
In Eve, your ship or other assets are worth something. That made fun concepts like ship boarding and fighting over PI colonies a no-go for Eve players. You really don't want to look at a progression bar while some console Players board you precious dreadnought and there is nothing you can do against it.
It would be different if something like that would be integrated in the eve client (like the captains quarter button) and i can defend the ship myself or lorewise better from the standpoint of the marines in my cargohold ("come, get some!").
This, they killed it before they ever wrote the first line of code.
Talk about bad decisions.
I might have tried it if it was on PC...
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Nana Skalski
Poseidaon
7981
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Posted - 2016.04.07 16:26:51 -
[12] - Quote
The best interaction it could receive would be called WIS. With shooting in space casinos.
( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ =ƒÅ¦ - my sandcastle
Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
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Arya Ikahrus
48
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Posted - 2016.04.07 17:54:19 -
[13] - Quote
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:From an in-universe standpoint, in my personal opinion, the DUST 514 environment is irrelevant. The ships we fly around in could reduce the surface of a sizable portion of a planet to molten slag. Who needs ground troops? Planetary security, and battles over planetary sovereignty would rightly take place in orbit, or at least somewhere in system. Just because the current orbital bombardment functionality is limited in scope doesn't mean it should be... If stations can mount shields that are totally invulnerable to our weapons it stands to reason that planetary installations could also do the same.
Rovinia wrote:The Eve - Dust interaction failed the moment it came out on another platform. That made meaningful interaction between the games nearly impossible. I agree, I think this is the main reason it never went further. You can't have ground troops messing with your stuff in any sort of meaningful way when most of the playerbase doesn't even have the capability to play the same game. |
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
172
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Posted - 2016.04.07 18:08:20 -
[14] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:AFAIK FW was test area for DUST interaction. But for some reason integration never went further Probalby because the PS3 was already obsolete when DUST was announced. PS3 hardware is from 2005, thats stone age in the digital age. You can't make rich, extensive gameworlds when you have so many technical limits. Well, maybe you can, but then the game will look like Half-Life 1.
I knew DUST514 will fail in the moment they said its PS3 exclusive. It was the worst decision CCP ever made. |
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development AddictClan
81
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Posted - 2016.04.07 19:54:08 -
[15] - Quote
Arya Ikahrus wrote:Neadayan Drakhon wrote:From an in-universe standpoint, in my personal opinion, the DUST 514 environment is irrelevant. The ships we fly around in could reduce the surface of a sizable portion of a planet to molten slag. Who needs ground troops? Planetary security, and battles over planetary sovereignty would rightly take place in orbit, or at least somewhere in system. Just because the current orbital bombardment functionality is limited in scope doesn't mean it should be... If stations can mount shields that are totally invulnerable to our weapons it stands to reason that planetary installations could also do the same. Actually... you've got a point there, I hadn't considered planetary shields (global or localized). Gotta be careful not to turn them into dyson spheres, and I would imagine a dread or titan should still be able to punch through eventually.
Though that does raise some questions regarding the current form of orbital bombardment - are we to assume that the battlefield locations are simply unshielded while other locations are? Or are the ground troops that call for a bombardment also by implication calling for the shields to temporarily drop at that location? |
Annemariela Antonela
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
605
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:06:39 -
[16] - Quote
Nothing satisfies like a crisp, ice cold PvP Lite... goes down smooooth. Ahh
GÇ£Culture is like a smog. To live within it, you must breathe some of it in and, inevitably, be contaminated.GÇ¥
GÇò Richard K. Morgan, Altered Carbon
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Cismet
Tellcomtec Gold
37
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:10:44 -
[17] - Quote
I played Dust. Since it came out. It was a solid enough shooter, though it was a bit rough around the edges. The lure of potential interaction, a game that was more than just double-kill, triple-kill games of one after another with no real "point" was enough of a draw to get me back into the first person shooter scene that I left when Quake 3 came out.
*Correction* I forgot that I actually spent a lot of time with the Halo series' multiplayer, so Quake 3 wasn't in fact the last "proper" foray into shooters...
They had some excellent ideas I've never seen in a shooter before:
The dropsuits - absolutely wonderful idea - they took the concept of choosing a weapon and let you choose everything as to how your avatar interacted with the world (within set limits) from speed, range, accuracy, damage, jumping height, stamina, hit points, damage resistance, radar visibility. Almost anything could be changed and meant that you could actually play a first person shooter how you wanted to play it. Something that I haven't really seen done properly before or since - though I'm willing to be told otherwise because I'd rather remove my own genitals with a rusty spork than play COD or Battlefield these days.
The mechanism for WP - you could top the leaderboard in a way that wasn't highest kills - Assists granted you WP, repairing, taking locations, hacking sites, dropping spawn points for your team, re-arming. The number of ways you could gain points was wonderful and refreshing compared with games where the only thing that mattered was your K/D ratio. Mine was rubbish, but I always came in the top half or top quarter of battles because I spent my time doing logistics and letting people spawn in intelligent places.
There were some issues with the mechanics and some massive abuses like the annoying mario clones that were incredibly annoying on a console and there were balance issues, but overall they had some great ideas and I understand their desire to slowly move with the integration so that they didn't damage the existing game that was Eve.
For me the only true mistake they made was not putting it on the PC. XBOX was never really an option because of the control that was demanded by M$ as I understand (namely, that M$ wanted full access to the servers, which CCP were never going to agree to, that's why it went to PS3 in the first place), but not putting it on PC was a cardinal sin and sadly killed the game. I'm really hoping they learn from it with the successor that they claim is being developed, Project Totally-Not-Legion and I will almost certainly play it when it comes out. |
Dani Gallar
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:34:18 -
[18] - Quote
Leonid Ragulin wrote:Read this on youtube:
DUST failed not because of cheating or because of PS3s become obsolete.
It failed because its biggest selling point, interaction with EVE, was non existent.
Instead of tying in with the true battleground of EVE, ie Nullsec, they went for a tie in with a little-used, considered a joke by most players, worthless feature of the game - Factional Warfare. For those that dont play eve, factional warfare is regarded as 'pvp lite', 'newbie pvp', and the like. It is merely a place people can fight in small-size ships and earn 'loyalty points' that can be traded in for bigger ships of average power, that noone in the real PVP universe uses. Heard of the current 'Money Badgers Alliance vs The Imperium' war? Exactly 0 ships from Factional Warfare have been used or destroyed in what is now the biggest conflict in Eve, and hence in all of gaming history.
I've always thought FW is a pretty good concept since it's fun to get consensual PvP once in a while. Also fighting in 'small ships' is nothing to be frowned upon, if anything it probably takes atleast the same amount of knowledge to get good at as the so called 'real PvP' you speak of.
My limited exposure to PvP have been almost exclusively in low-sec, null-sec/wormholes seems much harder to get action in unless one actively tries to stir up the hornets (or perhaps bees) nest.
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Trader20
Hedion University Amarr Empire
36
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:40:37 -
[19] - Quote
Dust failed because they released it on an inferior piece of tech with worse resolution and graphics then a toaster oven. |
Cismet
Tellcomtec Gold
37
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:45:34 -
[20] - Quote
Trader20 wrote:Dust failed because they released it on an inferior piece of tech with worse resolution and graphics then a toaster oven.
Also nothing wrong with FW. It's no commitment pvp neither bad or good just efficient.
Irrelevant. The graphics and tech are meaningless if the game is good. I can't be bothered to cite example after example, but here's two, one old, one new:
SimCity 2000 - still a magnificent example of a game even after all this time. Invisible Inc. - One of the best games of last year by an indie developer, graphics are terrible even by comparison with dust and the PS2 could probably have run it.
If the game is good, the rest doesn't matter. There are always people for whom graphicsizshiny is a mantra, for those people EvE would look dated and crap. You've just advocated Style over Substance.
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Trader20
Hedion University Amarr Empire
36
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:49:56 -
[21] - Quote
Cismet wrote:Trader20 wrote:Dust failed because they released it on an inferior piece of tech with worse resolution and graphics then a toaster oven.
Also nothing wrong with FW. It's no commitment pvp neither bad or good just efficient. Irrelevant. The graphics and tech are meaningless if the game is good. I can't be bothered to cite example after example, but here's two, one old, one new: SimCity 2000 - still a magnificent example of a game even after all this time. Invisible Inc. - One of the best games of last year by an indie developer, graphics are terrible even by comparison with dust and the PS2 could probably have run it. If the game is good, the rest doesn't matter. There are always people for whom graphicsizshiny is a mantra, for those people EvE would look dated and crap. You've just advocated Style over Substance.
Graphics don't matter to people that usually can't afford nice computers. Why else would you pay alot of money for a nice graphics card if you don't care about graphics (Lol you got logic'd).
Also indie-developer is the "organic food" of gaming......yes it's a scam.
Edit: typing from phone |
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
157
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Posted - 2016.04.07 20:52:43 -
[22] - Quote
LOL...read it on YouTube.
Who cares what some Neville wrote as a comment on YouTube. YouTube has a reputation for stupid comments. |
Moac Tor
Cyber Core Stain Confederation
468
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Posted - 2016.04.07 21:04:37 -
[23] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:AFAIK FW was test area for DUST interaction. But for some reason integration never went further Honestly, to claim Dust ever was integrated with FW is a massive stretch. It was irrelevant even to FW pilots.
CCP had a good idea but didn't seem to have the confidence to actually pull it off properly.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Cismet
Tellcomtec Gold
37
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Posted - 2016.04.07 21:09:18 -
[24] - Quote
Trader20 wrote:Cismet wrote:Trader20 wrote:Dust failed because they released it on an inferior piece of tech with worse resolution and graphics then a toaster oven.
Also nothing wrong with FW. It's no commitment pvp neither bad or good just efficient. Irrelevant. The graphics and tech are meaningless if the game is good. I can't be bothered to cite example after example, but here's two, one old, one new: SimCity 2000 - still a magnificent example of a game even after all this time. Invisible Inc. - One of the best games of last year by an indie developer, graphics are terrible even by comparison with dust and the PS2 could probably have run it. If the game is good, the rest doesn't matter. There are always people for whom graphicsizshiny is a mantra, for those people EvE would look dated and crap. You've just advocated Style over Substance. Graphics don't matter to people that usually can't afford nice computers. Why else would you pay alot of money for a nice graphics card if you don't care about graphics (Lol you got logic'd). Also indie-developer is the "organic food" of gaming......yes it's a scam. Edit: typing from phone
Of course I didn't, you just don't understand the concept that substance is better than style. I never said people don't care about graphics, I said that nice graphics alone does not a good game make. Given the choice between a good Game and good Graphics, most people would take the good game. Of course it's terrific if you can have both, but if I could only have 1, give me game every time.
As regards Indie games, go look at the figures for the likes of Undertale - 8 bit graphics. Evidently there's a lot of people being scammed. They don't seem to think so judging by the almost 50'000 overwhelmingly positive reviews on Steam alone. |
Velarra
504
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Posted - 2016.04.07 23:20:16 -
[25] - Quote
Cismet wrote:
Of course I didn't, you just don't understand the concept that substance is better than style. I never said people don't care about graphics, I said that nice graphics alone does not a good game make. Given the choice between a good Game and good Graphics, most people would take the good game. Of course it's terrific if you can have both, but if I could only have 1, give me game every time.
As regards Indie games, go look at the figures for the likes of Undertale - 8 bit graphics. Evidently there's a lot of people being scammed. They don't seem to think so judging by the almost 50'000 overwhelmingly positive reviews on Steam alone.
You've just reminded me of Psygnosis |
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
112
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Posted - 2016.04.08 00:03:02 -
[26] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:AFAIK FW was test area for DUST interaction. But for some reason integration never went further
Although the FW integration wasn't great, it was there and some coordinated pushes over the years by some strong DUST groups have helped conquer systems (as much as most EVE players would rather pretend they didn't matter).
They also did take the integration further with the district ownership in Molden Heath. Unfortunately it is an area of space not many players care about (which is why it was a good test area) and that ownership concept never spread further.
The real issue preventing any meaningful integration with EVE has been brought up many times but it is the inability to link the DUST and EVE economies, in no small part due to the prevalence of BPO suits which provide infinite quantities of items. This combined with some massive ISK imbalances in early days meant that the DUST economy was virtually impossible to integrate with EVE. Additionally, the ISK levels were very out of whack in that if they did integrate the economies, a single EVE player selling a PLEX could fund a DUST corp for a year due to the differences in costs.
Everything else (platform, graphics, ship to ground interaction) could have been handled one way or the other and even as it was DUST still had a dedicated core of players. The economy is the key because that is the core of what makes EVE truly EVE. It is what makes losses meaningful and what makes rewards rewarding.
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March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1724
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Posted - 2016.04.08 05:26:51 -
[27] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:March rabbit wrote:AFAIK FW was test area for DUST interaction. But for some reason integration never went further Honestly, to claim Dust ever was integrated with FW is a massive stretch. It was irrelevant even to FW pilots. CCP had a good idea but didn't seem to have the confidence to actually pull it off properly. I remember when i could gank and kill LP farmers who used Dust orbital strikes to farm LPs. And i've seen bunny-killmails with some body thingies on them.... So at some point it was relevant.
I even remember when Dust was used in system captures. Like for my corp it was really unpleasant surprise to find that we lost the system we were fighting for because enemy bunnies did their job...
But then something happened and everyone just forgot about it. Dunno what....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Josef Djugashvilis
3335
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Posted - 2016.04.08 06:01:54 -
[28] - Quote
The only good thing about DUST was that a different game, on a different system, was not really allowed to interfere with a game I pay for for on a computer.
I never understood why a PS3 game I have nothing to do with, should be allowed to impact on a computer game I do pay for.
This is not a signature.
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erg cz
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
422
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Posted - 2016.04.08 07:54:54 -
[29] - Quote
Leonid Ragulin wrote:Read this on youtube:
DUST failed not because of cheating or because of PS3s become obsolete.
It failed because its biggest selling point, interaction with EVE, was non existent.
Instead of tying in with the true battleground of EVE, ie Nullsec, they went for a tie in with a little-used, considered a joke by most players, worthless feature of the game - Factional Warfare. For those that dont play eve, factional warfare is regarded as 'pvp lite', 'newbie pvp', and the like. It is merely a place people can fight in small-size ships and earn 'loyalty points' that can be traded in for bigger ships of average power, that noone in the real PVP universe uses. Heard of the current 'Money Badgers Alliance vs The Imperium' war? Exactly 0 ships from Factional Warfare have been used or destroyed in what is now the biggest conflict in Eve, and hence in all of gaming history.
-1. Really. Take a look at this description of your beloved null PvP in current war, where "Exactly 0 ships from Factional Warfare have been used or destroyed". FW is the way to get the solo fight quickier, it requires from pilot more, than just listen to comms and press F1 . It is the only place, where at least some elements of match maker are introduced. You can not be ambushed with T3 destroyer in novice plex, for example.
So FW is place for fair solo or small gang fights, where you need to use your own brains and do not need to roam hours to fight the target. But if you want large fleet with expensive ships - join Villore Accords and enjoy plenty of them.
DUST is dead because it was not introduced for PC and lacked strong relations with Eve.
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra week of Eve for free!
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Arya Ikahrus
48
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Posted - 2016.04.08 08:39:06 -
[30] - Quote
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:Actually... you've got a point there, I hadn't considered planetary shields (global or localized). Gotta be careful not to turn them into dyson spheres, and I would imagine a dread or titan should still be able to punch through eventually.
Though that does raise some questions regarding the current form of orbital bombardment - are we to assume that the battlefield locations are simply unshielded while other locations are? Or are the ground troops that call for a bombardment also by implication calling for the shields to temporarily drop at that location?
I would assume that the whole area is shielded, hence the requirement for small specialized ammunition. What it lacks in general damage it makes up for in ability to circumvent the shielding.
Personally I think the main use for ground troops would be capturing things, sure they can get in and drop the shields, but at that point you may as well just destroy the enemy clone boat from orbit and keep the facility for yourself. |
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