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On this day, and on the day of my death

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Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 690	Posted - 2016.04.11 19:58:36 - [1] - Quote Three years ago Prime Minister Karin Midular was shot in Luminaire. It took over two months before the man whose hand raised the gun was brought to justice, and even longer before she was let go from this world to that of her ancestors. To this day, no investigation on what forces moved that man have been properly conducted. His own testimonial on that fact was quickly cut short. A threat of armed conflict quickly turned interests to the other way. The trial was short and the execution swift. Where is Mentas Blaque? He sits at the head of the Federal Intelligence Office. And who had the most to win? The same man whose power is founded on multiple assasinations to begin with. Oh let me live a dutiful life Let me find my Fate and fulfill it May my ancestors smile when they look over me On this day, and on the day of my death Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Mizhara Del'thul Kyn'aldrnari 718	Posted - 2016.04.11 20:39:14 - [2] - Quote Executions of traitors, perhaps. The very article you link speak of the evidence left behind. You would perhaps prefer they remained in the power structure, so Midular's appeasement continued to be the policy enacted? The purging of the corrupt and the inveiglers was perhaps the finest act of patriotism and love for the Tribes I have seen in my life, enacted decisively and with precision. I can only hope, should I ever be in a position where I act against my people in the way those traitors did, that someone has the strength and determination to dispatch me in the same way, leaving behind the evidence of a just act.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 691	Posted - 2016.04.11 20:42:05 - [3] - Quote I would, Del'thul, that our tribes held trials before they execute anyone as a traitor. Too much to ask? Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2556	Posted - 2016.04.11 21:10:40 - [4] - Quote I'd like to see Mentas Blaque having some tribal justice as well. Gallenteans are racists and even their government is racist. But honestly, I'd prefer to see them getting Caldari justice. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Mizhara Del'thul Kyn'aldrnari 718	Posted - 2016.04.11 21:24:41 - [5] - Quote Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: I would, Del'thul, that our tribal leaders held proper trials before they execute anyone as a traitor. Too much to ask? Who will investigate and arbitrate in a corrupt system? When something is that rotten, it can't be remedied piecemeal. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt with new materials. Even worse, saddling the broken system with many hundreds of accusations, investigations and strife during such a critical moment? It would be tantamount to crippling the tribes and destroying us from within. It's unfortunate that it ever came to that, but when it got that bad the situation required swift and decisive action, which is exactly what happened. Sometimes you can only choose between a lesser or a greater evil. Yes, in that situation it was most certainly too much to ask. I do recall asking rather politely, and repeatedly, not to call me Del'thul.
Louella Dougans Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine 274	Posted - 2016.04.11 21:33:14 - [6] - Quote I once saw some 'evidence' that a certain Minmatar pilot, was responsible for the murder of several hundred thousand freed slaves, allegedly for "not being Minmatar enough". And some other 'evidence' that those several hundred thousands had actually just been sold back to Cartel slavers, to provide funds for fighting slavery. If that 'evidence' had been professionally made, rather than what appeared to be some kind of half-baked frame-up, well then. Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/
Deitra Vess Non-Hostile Target 1016	Posted - 2016.04.11 23:01:44 - [7] - Quote Diana Kim wrote: I'd like to see Mentas Blaque having some tribal justice as well. Gallenteans are racists and even their government is racist. But honestly, I'd prefer to see them getting Caldari justice. Respectfully, who do you think has it worse? Whether it be true or not mind you, those under the authority of Matari justice or Caldari justice? It's safe to say you want to see them suffer, where would they suffer more? Hasn't the events surrounding that "certain pilot" been beaten long after its death by now? May Midular's spirit find rest. I may not agree with her policies fully but I respect what she was.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 460	Posted - 2016.04.12 00:14:55 - [8] - Quote I am sure the FIO will be prompt in responding to the Ice Cream Audit Office as to the status of their investigation into if the Ray of Matar was assassinated by the SanMatar.. After all it is clear he has gained so much ???? from her death.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 692	Posted - 2016.04.12 05:10:06 - [9] - Quote Quote: I am sure the FIO will be prompt in responding to the Ice Cream Audit Office Oh, Ayallah, FIO needs not to respond to IceAO, for this is not corporation business. IceAO is not a political entity. Hell, FIO does not need to talk to me, either. Just doing their job would be enough. Without Mentas Blaque it would be more believable, though. Quote: Who will investigate and arbitrate in a corrupt system? It is interesting, Mizhara, that you consider your tribal elders capable of issuing justice by murder, but not capable of issuing justice by trial. After all, the only tribe whose leadership has changed since is the Sebiestor tribe, and that did not happen until much later than the Parliament massacre. Surely, if they were then so deep in the corruption that they could not deal with it in a civilized manner, they are not fit to lead now either? Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 460	Posted - 2016.04.12 06:22:26 - [10] - Quote You forget the Nefantir and Starkmanir. But I suppose expecting a Sebiestor supremacist to consider the other Tribes is too much. Perhaps you should go back to blaming Shakor for breaking up the old republic? ....Oh right, that was Midular.

Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 693	Posted - 2016.04.12 06:46:18 - [11] - Quote Call me supremacist as much as you like, but when brain functions of certain other people are on the level where legally dissolving a parliament is a worse act against the Republic than murdering said parliament's members, rigging an election, and seizing dictatorship, it is a little hard not to consider myself a tad above average. I did not forget the Nefantar and the Starkmanir, either. They did not exactly change leadership, but for some reason unclear to me had to have their leaders blessed by the aforementioned dictator in a fancy ceremony before being allowed to call them Chiefs. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Mizhara Del'thul Kyn'aldrnari 724	Posted - 2016.04.12 08:02:16 - [12] - Quote You don't see the weight such trials would put on the Tribes at that time? How saddling the system with hundreds of very high profile trials, investigations and more that could potentially go nowhere due to the corruption involved would cripple us? Sometimes what has to be done isn't nice, pretty or legal. It still has to be done, for our people and for the Tribes. Of course, you have been more than willing to abandon our people in the Empire in the past, so I shouldn't be surprised that you'd prefer leaving the Nefantar and Starkmanir behind as well, in favor of a bloated and corrupt Midular appeasement favoring government. Because that is what would have happened if the cancer within hadn't been swiftly carved out with precision and skill. You think their liberation would have succeeded with all those traitors in our midst? Then again, you were more than willing to cower in Republic space and abandon our kin to the Empire before. If you think the Tribes are under a dictatorship, rise up and fight against it. Do what has to be done.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 693	Posted - 2016.04.12 08:12:07 - [13] - Quote I did not abandon our kin. While some people were in zero sec complaining of lack of warmongering, I was running one of the biggest "underground railroads" across the Amarrian border. Gradient brought millions home over the years, ran refugee camps, provided jobs, connected clans. Of course, no one remembers, because it was not, at the time, practical to make PR out of something that might have given the Amarrians an excuse to invade. Practicality - the fact that we would have lost, still likely would lose an all-out war - was never an argument enough for you people to stop warmongering. Plausible deniability you called dishonorable, because for you, practical concerns about what it would mean to the tribes if we went after our own in force were not something we should consider before honor. Somehow the toll to the tribes becomes a relevant argument when it is about murdering your own, though. Funny, that. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Mizhara Del'thul Kyn'aldrnari 725	Posted - 2016.04.12 08:44:11 - [14] - Quote You seem to think I had anything at all to do with Ushra'Khan in those days. Bah, what point is there in trying to reason with an extremist zealot? The hate for anything that didn't kiss the hem of Midular's dress is too ingrained. That you would consider traitors working for the Amarr 'your own' just to spite Shakor says it all.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 693	Posted - 2016.04.12 08:47:23 - [15] - Quote Yes, I consider any member of my tribe as a member of my tribe until such time that due process has been conducted to outcast them. Even criminals. Even convicted criminals, so why not those who have been denied a trial? And U'K has very little to do with what I said, apart from, obviously, being an example of the type of people I spoke of. Only an example, though, and a historical one at that - I think most of them have gotten over it. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 460	Posted - 2016.04.12 09:35:26 - [16] - Quote Dissolving the government in a time of crisis because it and the people it represents disagree with you does not make you a dictator, being beloved by the people and no one stepping forward to run against you does. This is your assertion? You live in the Republic and should know better than to call the SanMatar a dictator. The Chiefs rule, not him. The only thing more inane in this thread is Mizhara of all people to wear a face mark coming at you for abandoning your people. ...I take that back, it is you implying that Chief Valkanir and Chief Setul are in their positions because they support the SanMatar and not because their Tribes chose them. Pretending Chief Valkanir did not earn her position after her many years of service to her people at extreme personal risk is particularly distasteful. It is no wonder the Tribal leaders are deaf to you and those like you. You spit on a thousand years of tradition, "fancy ceremony" and the greatest victory the Matari people have won since they won their freedom just to imply justification for your vendetta against the San Matar. For the rest of the future of the Republic its people will remember the re-unification of the Tribes, the Chiefs and San Matar who proved to the entire cluster that you cannot wipe out the Matari. What will they remember about you? Your long record of service in combat and to your people or your aged and delusional ramblings? Just a confectionary vendor spewing conspiracy theories. Long past her prime.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 695	Posted - 2016.04.12 09:43:24 - [17] - Quote Aged? I am hardly forty in conventional reckoning, barely old enough to count as a wise adult where I come from. I hope I have a long time till senility. Dissolving of the parliament would have lead to a free re-election of the parliament in two months, had the events proceeded on the legal course. Instead, what we got was a charade of an election for Prime Minister, with one candidate. Yea, my assertion is that this did not exactly go as it should have. And yes, it is interesting that "Chiefs rule" should convince us this is a free tribal republic when, as you point out, all those Chiefs are now pretty much hand-picked by the blind man on the top. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 460	Posted - 2016.04.12 09:56:36 - [18] - Quote None of them were picked by Shakor and I never implied they were. They were chosen by their people. Something that seems to confound you about how the SanMatar was chosen as well. Perhaps you forgot already the celebration all across the Republic the day he was named. Perhaps you forget that this is the Republic we are speaking of and not a Federation or a State. Perhaps you forget that a planet of Matari people had been taken over by the Angel Cartel and your would be martyr did nothing. Perhaps you forget that the Starkmanir would not exist had two months passed. Perhaps you forget how much worse it was in the old Republic, corrupt and weak and ineffectual. It is your conspiracy theory that is aged, I said nothing about how long you have been alive. What I did say was how pathetic and insulting it was to throw away the work the Chiefs have done to earn their title. To imply they were picked by the San Matar and not chosen for their people they sweat and bled for. You have no respect at all for anything but your own narrow view of a wronged Sebiestor supremacy. You would return to unequal and broken Tribes, a corrupt and weak government, just to spite a single man who re-united the Tribes. If Shakor had been the minister who dissolved parliament and Midular the one to re-unite the Tribes I am sure you would be singing a far different song.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 695	Posted - 2016.04.12 10:08:32 - [19] - Quote Perhaps your words would have more effect if you did not just mindlessly parrot the official propaganda. How conveniently you forget that it was Midular's government who started the negotiations with the Nefantar; how conveniently you forget it was not the Sanmatar but the so-called Elder Fleet who went for the Starkmanir. All he did for the unification was stand in the ceremonies that followed. And what has he achieved since? Are the people still in Empire any freer? Are the local governments less corrupt? And I'd stand with any leader of the Republic who came to their power by legal means. I am oath-sworn to do that. Tribe is irrelevant, there. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Kithrus Tzedakah Aegis Militia 430	Posted - 2016.04.12 14:38:11 - [20] - Quote I'd offer to help but realistically as soon as I do true republic supporting tribes men start spitting hot coals even as the words leave my mouth so.... God Speed? Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure. If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 461	Posted - 2016.04.12 16:53:00 - [21] - Quote Now you are calling the scope propaganda? The very news sources you linked damn your point of view. Midular's government was not the one that started negotiations with the Nefantir, the Republic had been speaking with them from rebellion. Are you to credit her with that next? In one breath you blame Shakor alone for the Purge and deny him the credit for his involvement in the One Day War. Which is it Elsebeth, was he complicit in it or was he not? Was he working with the Elders and them for him or was he not? Make up your mind. Since he has become SanMatar the Tribes have been united, we have a new government. Or did he not propose all of that years ago now too? Your memory seems highly selective so I cannot be sure what your version of history will produce. Crime has reduced drastically, the fleet is more modern, social programs are more robust and widespread, infrastructure in the Republic is ubiquitously better, corruption is universally down after the purge... All of this can be accredited to the New Tribal Order. The one Shakor pushed from the day he became SanMatar. But I suppose he also does not rule the Empire with the power to free all the slaves so he falls short in your eyes? The Tribes are now equal members in the government written by them and it is thanks to the Chiefs and the Sanmatar. Midular had a hand in it before she was killed in the Federation if you remember. She supported Shakor as SanMatar and in creating the New Tribal Order as did the other Chiefs. The whole Republic supported him and named him SanMatar following the legal process of the time and only you and handful of Sebiestor Supremacists still contest that. Seven Tribes and Seven Chiefs recognize him as the SanMatar, Including your own Chief. Kin of the Ray Of Matar you claim he had killed to fill some purpose you have yet to actually define. And you believe she is blind and stupid unaware of your vast conspiracy? Or are you simply not thinking of the universal and ubiquitous support the SanMatar has from the Chiefs, the ones who rule the Republic. You call dissolving a government that disagrees with you "legal" but call an election with the support of the Chiefs and the people "illegal?" Your Chief, all the Seven Tribes, trillions of Matari, CONCORD, The Empire, The Federation, and the State al recognize him as legal and rightful SanMatar. Time to look to your Chief and follow your Oath. Abandon these idiotic conspiracies and accept them as misplaced emotion from your grief over the death of the Ray Of Matar. For your sake.
Nick Bete The Scope Gallente Federation 414	Posted - 2016.04.12 17:29:36 - [22] - Quote Calling Pilot Rhiannon a racial supremacist is a bit over the line. She's done far more for the Minmatar, ALL MINMATAR, than you Pilot Ayallah. Why don't you go back to your null sec warmongering and leave Empire politics to those of us who, you know, actually live in Empire space.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 461	Posted - 2016.04.12 17:49:39 - [23] - Quote It did not take long for this to devolve into the "who has free'd more slaves" part of the argument. It is almost tradition at this point to compare factional warfare service records once an argument has been lost, I just expected it from a factional warfare pilot. I of course defer to you, having made a full and objective accounting of Elsebeth's entire lifetime of service as well as mine and not just reading an alliance ticker and making an assumption. Since you did not just read my alliance ticker and instead read what I said I have no need to remind you: Ayallah wrote: What will they remember about you? Your long record of service in combat and to your people or your aged and delusional ramblings? Now tell me where I live Nick. Then tell me how that effects the truth of what I have said. Or is this thread now "who freed more slaves and killed Nauplius more times?" If so then I am more than happy to leave it to Diana Kim and the others who typically come out of the woodwork by now.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Icecream Audit Office 705	Posted - 2016.04.12 18:15:27 - [24] - Quote I call dissolving the parliament legal, because there was - is - a law in the Republic that allowed for it, and a law that defined what happens after that. I call murdering members of the Parliament illegal - I am sure I do not have to explain that one. I call an election with just one contestant so soon after these events (the murders, the dissolution attempt) completely bogus. The idea that suddenly after the previously very conflicted tribal leaders suddenly "universally loved" Shakor is even more bogus (unless you, of course, assume that all those who did not conveniently died in the Parliament Massacre). I do not know what passed between Midular and Shakor in the cabinets before that election. But I am absolutely certain something more than "oh brother, I just realized what a magnificent man you are, so you can have the throne" did. I don't blame Shakor for not having won a war against the Empire, mind you. I think the toy war is an excellent idea and simply brilliant way to prevent an escalation we still cannot afford. I just wonder about how fast everyone calling for the immediate liberation of all slaves has forgotten about that call as soon as they got their man appointed as 'Sanmatar'. Let the bridges we burn light the way.
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor Gutter Press 140	Posted - 2016.04.12 18:32:22 - [25] - Quote Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: proper trials before they execute anyone as a traitor. Here's the thing. Hundreds of people were executed by a huge organisation of unknown agents, for apparently being traitors, paid by the Amarr secret service. Seemingly, evidence of them being paid by the Amarr secret service was left at the scene of each murder. So. Some organisation exists, with knowledge of who the Amarr secret services were paying off. And they knew where those people would be. And they just waltzed in and murdered them, and left the evidence, and waltzed right back out. Now then... which agency is it, that has the absolute best evidence of who is in the pay of the Amarr secret service ? Is it the RSS ? The FIO ? No. Turns out, unsurprisingly, that the agency that knows best who is being paid by the Amarr secret service, is in fact, the Amarr secret service. So, it never crossed anyone's mind, that perhaps this might be some kind of cover-up by the Amarr secret service ? That upon the news of the Elder invasion, the Amarr secret service ordered their handlers in Minmatar space to "Execute Plan B", to terminate the existing informants, so that they could be replaced by new, less obvious ones, because the existing ones would face far too much scrutiny as the Republic prepared for an Imperial counter-attack ? No. Clearly that is a conspiracy theory. Everything is fine. The Elders protect. Trust in the Elders. Obey the Elders. Do not question the Elders. Comply. Obey. Accept. And then Shakor becomes the head of state for the Republic. A man who by his own admission, was abducted by Jovians and came back a changed person. Obey. Accept. Comply. Amarr. Ammatars. Gallente. Jovians. Elders. Angel Cartel. Is there no end to the number of of groups that seek to shape the Minmatar people into what they wish them to be ? Must we be forever nothing more than a pawn in someone else's game ?
Aldrith Shutaq PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1352	Posted - 2016.04.12 18:34:08 - [26] - Quote Karin Midular was a wise and prudent leader. If only her people had appreciated her more when she was alive. My condolences. Aldrith Ter'neth Newelle Lord Consort of House Sarum Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 461	Posted - 2016.04.12 21:08:53 - [27] - Quote Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote: I call dissolving the parliament legal, because there was - is - a law in the Republic that allowed for it, and a law that defined what happens after that. And the act of removing her from power was done legally through those same laws. The vote that followed for the new prime minister was done legally through those same laws. What is your argument here? As for weak harping and idiotic conspiracy involving the Purge. Show me a single shred of evidence that anyone killed that day was done so wrongly. That they were not weakening the Republic with their vampiric drain of resources and information to the Empire, the Federation, or the Cartel. They were corrupt and all deserved what they got. Show me any evidence an innocent man or woman was left cooling with a datapad of manufactured crimes. That is Tribal justice and you are all right to fear it just as those who would be corrupt today fear it. If you want trials and law advocates who can weasel the guilty free then go to the Federation. Aldrith Shutaq wrote: Karin Midular was a wise and prudent leader. If only her people had appreciated her more when she was alive. My condolences. She was also weak and unpopular, frequently going against the wishes of her people. It was the love the Matari had for their Ray of Matar that strung the Republic out to its state before the One Day War. Had she not been Ray of Matar then her reputation as a peacemaker would have never been repeated. That same love is what bore the massacre of Colelie. So perhaps things would have been less ugly had she been less beloved in her time.
Constantly Outraged Sebiestor Gutter Press 141	Posted - 2016.04.12 22:04:31 - [28] - Quote Ayallah wrote: That is Tribal justice. No, it's not. A man kills another man. Is he guilty of murder ?
Diana Kim State Protectorate Caldari State 2556	Posted - 2016.04.12 22:27:45 - [29] - Quote Constantly Outraged Sebiestor wrote: Ayallah wrote: That is Tribal justice. No, it's not. A man kills another man. Is he guilty of murder ? Yes. Unless he got an order to kill and was ready to die himself to execute this order. Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us. In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Ayallah ElitistOps Pandemic Legion 461	Posted - 2016.04.12 22:36:42 - [30] - Quote A corpse cannot tell if the man who made it had god on his side or not. Murder can be just and legal executions can be wrong but death comes the same for both. Murders can have the protection of the law and can be the sole justice in a corrupt system, outlaw. And I have never met a body that knew the difference. Justice was done on behalf of the Tribes by members of the Tribes. Three years of long and expensive trials would the end result be different? I'll let those with nothing better to do play with the hypotheticals.



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