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m3talc0re X
SandStorm. The Babylon Consortium
38
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Posted - 2011.12.17 20:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
We have to train so much longer for a Marauder, which is a T2 ship no less, and when we get it, it's pre-nerfed. Faction battleships are better in pretty much every way. They get better dps, better tracking, better sensor resolution and better sensor strength. Where exactly is the advantage of the marauder?
How about buffing marauders? Give 'em the 100% damage bonus for role bonus, then their additional damage bonus on their respective battleship skill level. Kinda give them all the bonuses like the Kronos gets. Maybe a tracking bonus on the three turret boats per marauder level, keeping the painter bonus on the Golem. Also increase the ships' sensor strength and scan resolution. There's no reason they should be as pathetically weak as they are.
I've kept the wall of text, but you get the drift of the idea. I shouldn't have to post up full specs for each ship and etc... |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
49
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Posted - 2011.12.17 20:47:00 -
[2] - Quote
Black Ops and Marauders get an unfair docket, so much training for not much reward.
It is the way of things, sorry to say.
I support this in everyway possible but I honestly hope they fix Black Ops before Marauders. |
Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.12.17 22:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Short since forums ate my post... CNR > Golem Raven = Golem Both for a fraction of the cost and training time. |
m3talc0re X
SandStorm. The Babylon Consortium
39
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Posted - 2011.12.17 22:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
That's kinda the point though. It needs fixed. Marauders need buffed.
And forums ate my first post twice. Thank god for copy/paste. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
71
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Posted - 2011.12.17 23:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
t2 BS's do need a buff. Many argue against it but you just can't make a rational argument for t2 BS's being inferior to their t1 counterparts. The general buff marauders need is a proper t2 resistance bonus, increased sensor strength and increased fitting resources. The ship bonuses themselves I think are perfectly fine. CCP has been very determined to keep them out of pvp but I honestly don't see why you shouldn't be able to whip out a vargur with 4x 800mm's, 3x heavy neuts and a decent active tank if you really want to. Sure it will crush a maelstrom but that's kinda the point of spending so much isk on it. It won't crush two maelstroms however, and hence the price tag does balance it out. Price is a balancing factor when the ship is only a little better at a much greater cost. It's only when you become invulnerable to counterattack that isk can't be used to balance things out.
As for BO's, they need all sorts of buffs. HP, resistance, fittings, range and redone ship bonuses for a start. Basically they just need to delete them and try again from scratch. They couldn't have gotten it more wrong. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
2
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Posted - 2011.12.17 23:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well the scan res penalty really sucks in pve, same as the sensor strength, if you do guristas or Incursion with them.
The worst thing in my opinion however is the active tank bonus, it doesn't offer so much more performance for missions(actually it is plain inferior to the resistance bonus in a min/maxed L4 fitting that only has to survive damage spikes reasonable well w/o so much permatank ability's given you have solid a solid DPS aplication) and it is kind of bad for group based PVE, where you relay on RR and ships like the Abaddon actually offer the much better tanks whit the far lower sig. This is bad because some Marauders actually hitting a very heavy demand her(last time I checked you seen 25-50% of a Assault fleet in Palas, since it is the armor tanked med to long range tach based DPS ship).
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leviticus ander
The Scope Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.12.18 04:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Djego wrote:Well the scan res penalty really sucks in pve, same as the sensor strength, if you do guristas or Incursion with them.
The worst thing in my opinion however is the active tank bonus, it doesn't offer so much more performance for missions(actually it is plain inferior to the resistance bonus in a min/maxed L4 fitting that only has to survive damage spikes reasonable well w/o so much permatank ability's given you have solid a solid DPS aplication) and it is kind of bad for group based PVE, where you relay on RR and ships like the Abaddon actually offer the much better tanks whit the far lower sig. This is bad because some Marauders actually hitting a very heavy demand her(last time I checked you seen 25-50% of a Assault fleet in Palas, since it is the armor tanked med to long range tach based DPS ship).
to fix that they could make the bonus the same amount but it increases the effectiveness of all resistance boosting modules. it would have a close to similar effect as you would be taking less overall damage so your active tank can keep up easier or you can have a buffer and just take less damage making it easier on your RR team to keep you alive. the sensor strength while painful to deal with, is also what prevent these from being the optimal fleet PVP ships where they just cap boost each other or neut everything they look at. EDIT: prevents it from doing that without any worries at all. they still can if they wanted to though. |
Aaron Barton
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2011.12.18 07:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
I think a slight buff to marauders would be nice.
I'd really like to see the class get a fourth utility high slot. The way I see it, that fourth would allow an even mix of tractors and salvagers which would help the class fulfill its on-the-fly salvaging role just a bit better. The class wouldn't encroach on the Noctis's ability, since it doesn't receive the tractor speed and the salvager reduction in cycle time bonus. (And also, that fourth slot would allow me to put the four guns on my Kronos at the front banks, instead of having to spread them out over the ship, in a glorious display of OCD visual cohesion. Seriously, those forward banks are the perfect place for the guns, yet one of those slots is the eighth and therefore missing slot?)
The lacking T2 resists bother me as well, because it just conflicts with nearly every other T2 class out there. I feel it to be a precarious precedent. If the idea behind T2 ships includes heightened resists against the racial enemy, then why the discrepancy with marauder (and black ops) resists. Their resists don't quite live up to those T2 standards.
The whole weak sensor strength and scan resolution thing I don't mind so much. Even though the reasoning - to discourage the use of marauders in PvP - seems kinda hollow. A determined pilot will fly any ship he damn well wants, regardless of price or stats.
My 2 ISK. |
Gnord
Super Mining Bros - 3D
0
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Posted - 2011.12.18 09:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
When you say "marauders", I think you mean "Golem." The Vargur gets a ROF bonus, which is a 33% DPS bonus. The Paladin and Kronos both get a damage bonus, which is a 25% DPS bonus. The Golem is the only one that doesn't get a DPS bonus. So... unless you fly a Golem, your wish is granted already. Happy? However, with the painter bonus, a Golem will still likely keep up with a CNR.
As for the sensor strength, I recall the devblog when they were released. T2 battleships had the serious capacity to become unstoppable tank monsters. With their boosted resists, and battleship++ hitpoints, they're already insane. The sensor strength was deliberately lowered to make them vulnerable to SOMETHING, and they weren't really meant for PVP (huge price-tag, and super vulnerable to jamming).
They were released as an extremely rare boon to mission-runners. And in that regard, they're unstoppable (Don't accept Guristas missions, heh).
I'm sure everybody want's a perfect, unkillable, un-jammable, ultimate DPS monster, but that would quickly make the game boring. |
Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.12.18 10:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gnord wrote:When you say "marauders", I think you mean "Golem." The Vargur gets a ROF bonus, which is a 33% DPS bonus. The Paladin and Kronos both get a damage bonus, which is a 25% DPS bonus. The Golem is the only one that doesn't get a DPS bonus. So... unless you fly a Golem, your wish is granted already. Happy? However, with the painter bonus, a Golem will still likely keep up with a CNR. ... They were released as an extremely rare boon to mission-runners. And in that regard, they're unstoppable (Don't accept Guristas missions, heh).
I'm sure everybody want's a perfect, unkillable, un-jammable, ultimate DPS monster, but that would quickly make the game boring. I haven't looked too closely at the others, but as I noted above, the Golem sucks. If I got a CNR with my skills right now, the tradeoffs with a perfect skill Golem would be that it's better against small ships and can salvage, but has less tank since it lacks the third CCC rig. (Or you use torps and instead sacrifice a ton of range.) Now if I get those missile and shield skills up higher, that CNR will easily tank better, and will largely make up for being worse against small ships by having higher raw DPS. Only it costs half as much as the Golem, and I wouldn't need five+ months of training to get it there. |
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Solinuas
Beyond Evil and Good
43
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Posted - 2011.12.18 11:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually a torp golem kinda destroys missions my biggest issue with maurauders, The Vargur seems to be designed for artillery with arguably the most artillery favoring bonus's in all of minmatar ships, and then of course fitting a full rack requires approx 30% more PG than the ship has |
m3talc0re X
SandStorm. The Babylon Consortium
39
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Posted - 2011.12.18 15:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
I was actually NOT talking about a Golem, I can fly one, but don't have much experience with it at all. Paladin gets a damage bonus, sure, but it's based on the Marauder skill, which is f'ing stupid.
I KNEW someone would bring up marauders in pvp. I counter your argument with the heavy use of pirate faction bs's in pvp. Nuff said.
And I totally forgot about that with the Vargur. Fitting an entire rack of 1400mm arties is more or less impossibru. With nothing else fit at all, they still take up more pg than the Vargur has... wtf?
Maybe back in the day, they could be killing machines, but now, not so much. Faction bs's totally out class them. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 15:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
I don't see many pirate faction BS's in pvp. Other than machariels, they really don't turn up that much. I was in a 70 man fleet last night and guess what, only one pirate faction BS was present (bhaalgorn). We had a fair number of navy BS's mixed in, but only one pirate faction. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
320
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 17:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:I don't see many pirate faction BS's in pvp. Other than machariels, they really don't turn up that much. I was in a 70 man fleet last night and guess what, only one pirate faction BS was present (bhaalgorn). We had a fair number of navy BS's mixed in, but only one pirate faction.
It has to do with price. A navy Geddon cost only 200 mil, and gives you one more slot and ~40% more base hp. An Abaddon is only 50 mil cheaper, for less hp, fewer slots, larger sig, and slower speed.
I doubt marauder will see much use, with low hp buffer and joke of a grid, not to mention sensor strength. |
Jask Avan
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.12.18 18:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Solinuas wrote:Actually a torp golem kinda destroys missions Somone link a good Golem fitting? I can't seem to make one that isn't better on a CNR.
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
3
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Posted - 2011.12.18 23:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
leviticus ander wrote:The Djego wrote:Well the scan res penalty really sucks in pve, same as the sensor strength, if you do guristas or Incursion with them.
The worst thing in my opinion however is the active tank bonus, it doesn't offer so much more performance for missions(actually it is plain inferior to the resistance bonus in a min/maxed L4 fitting that only has to survive damage spikes reasonable well w/o so much permatank ability's given you have solid a solid DPS aplication) and it is kind of bad for group based PVE, where you relay on RR and ships like the Abaddon actually offer the much better tanks whit the far lower sig. This is bad because some Marauders actually hitting a very heavy demand her(last time I checked you seen 25-50% of a Assault fleet in Palas, since it is the armor tanked med to long range tach based DPS ship).
to fix that they could make the bonus the same amount but it increases the effectiveness of all resistance boosting modules. it would have a close to similar effect as you would be taking less overall damage so your active tank can keep up easier or you can have a buffer and just take less damage making it easier on your RR team to keep you alive. the sensor strength while painful to deal with, is also what prevent these from being the optimal fleet PVP ships where they just cap boost each other or neut everything they look at. EDIT: prevents it from doing that without any worries at all. they still can if they wanted to though.
The key here is to save a slot or two on the tank, compared to faction BS in this setups to make marauders actually a very good choice for this PVE content compared to faction BS. This is a mixed problem of them, having a slot less and far less raw HP, that makes faction BS superior after reasonable tanks you will end up on them with more slots for DPS or utility. The scan res penalty is just limiting them in solo pvp(pointless in my opinion, since non of them has what it takes to challenge the mach here, while it also sucks for PVE). Fleets of marauders are not practical, since you can get for the same ISK also fleets of capitals(that got serious rr tanks) or fleets of machs, that combine the speed with the alpha to useful levels. The resistance bonus is a 33% EHP bonus to the tanking layer, a 33% active tanking bonus and a 33% RR bonus, the active tanking bonus is only useful for L4, where it isn't even better than the resist bonus to begin with.
I'm not after creating the ultimate RR BS gang(a concept from the past anyway) but having the ships a more dedicated choice compared to faction BS in her PVE niche.
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
3
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Posted - 2011.12.18 23:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jask Avan wrote:Solinuas wrote:Actually a torp golem kinda destroys missions Somone link a good Golem fitting? I can't seem to make one that isn't better on a CNR.
[Golem, New Setup 1] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter
Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo Salvager II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Hobgoblin II x3 Hobgoblin II x2 Garde II x2
You can also go T2 damage rig + T1 range rig, if you have other hulls ready to use for missions that need a bit more range. For general all out L4 performance the 2 truster rigs give you maximum speed on the Torps what makes handling a bit easier, since you have a quicker reaction -> result time while dishing out the DPS. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
361
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 23:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
the paladin has a bonus for local repairer which is OK for PVE. It would be interesting to see what would happen if it would also get a bonus for remote repping. It would still have the great sensor strength weakness, very expensive etc, but thats all fine ;) a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
3
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Posted - 2011.12.19 00:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:the paladin has a bonus for local repairer which is OK for PVE. It would be interesting to see what would happen if it would also get a bonus for remote repping. It would still have the great sensor strength weakness, very expensive etc, but thats all fine ;)
The same thing like you give it a resist bonus instead the active tank bonus(puls a bigger EHP on the tanking layer). The active tanking bonus isn't more useful, even with active reps, since the vast majority of pve content is about surviving damage spikes till you get it down by taking down damage ships or having the loigs catching you, not about perma tanking stuff for ages.
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King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
71
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Posted - 2011.12.19 00:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:King Rothgar wrote:I don't see many pirate faction BS's in pvp. Other than machariels, they really don't turn up that much. I was in a 70 man fleet last night and guess what, only one pirate faction BS was present (bhaalgorn). We had a fair number of navy BS's mixed in, but only one pirate faction. It has to do with price. A navy Geddon cost only 200 mil, and gives you one more slot and ~40% more base hp. An Abaddon is only 50 mil cheaper, for less hp, fewer slots, larger sig, and slower speed. I doubt marauder will see much use, with low hp buffer and joke of a grid, not to mention sensor strength.
That was exactly my point. The argument against buffing t2 BS's for pvp (or pve for that matter) is that it will effectively remove t1 BS's from the game. This is not true so long as they don't go with an SC style buff and make them virtually indestructible. The current navy and pirate faction BS's (excluding machariel) are very well balanced against the t1 lineup and each other. T2 BS's as a whole are not, they are exceptionally underwhelming compared to other ships with similar prices (pirate BS's namely) for both pve and pvp.
I actually think the bonuses on marauders are fine as is. What they need is some more fitting resources, and un-nerfed sensors. BO's as already stated require a much more substantial redesign.
Edit: I should probably mention that the navy geddon isn't that much better than an abaddon, it's just different. Both ships come in at around 350k EHP with slaves and a legion booster. The difference between them is the navy geddon does around 20% more dps while the abaddon has better resists and thus tanks better with logi on field. I consider them more or less equals and which I fly depends on whether I need more dps or more tank. |
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m3talc0re X
SandStorm. The Babylon Consortium
56
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Posted - 2011.12.20 19:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bump!
Come on CCP, chime in. We want our damn marauders ungimped and able to compete with faction ships that require half the damn training. |
Hans Momaki
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.02.03 01:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
m3talc0re X wrote:Bump!
Come on CCP, chime in. We want our damn marauders ungimped and able to compete with faction ships that require half the damn training.
exactly! Marauders should shine brigthly in PvE.. at the moment, they need a flashlight pointing on them to become visible.
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Amaroq Dricaldari
Total Annihilation. Pandorum Invictus
42
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Posted - 2012.02.03 02:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jask Avan wrote:Short since forums ate my post... CNR > Golem Raven = Golem Both for a fraction of the cost and training time. What is a CNR? This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
Daeva Teresa
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.02.03 03:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
caldari navy raven duuh ... but seriously it should be Raven Navy Issue, but no one uses RNI abbr. |
Amaroq Dricaldari
Total Annihilation. Pandorum Invictus
43
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Posted - 2012.02.03 03:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
No need to be mean. This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. |
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