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450 vs 450 fleet battle in 0.0... or not....

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:23:00 - [181] Originally by: Julio Torres Not taking advantage over game mechanics to avoid the fighting and pull off the victory. No one took advantage of any game mechanics. Everyone was on the receiving end of the servers being overloaded. Originally by: Julio Torres Roughly what went on: 400-450 defenders in system, 20-25 bubbles on gate. Very noticable lag from our forces alone. Hostiles jump into system and node crashes. So you filled the system with a huge number of ships, enough that the node was already at about 75-80% capacity. It would take AT LEAST 450 ships to challenge that fleet, generally speaking about double or triple that to guarantee the win - which is what would have to happen since you were defending a strategically invaluable target of opportunity. So AT LEAST 800-900 ships would be needed to effectively challenge your blockade. Closer to 1200 to be sensible. This is what happened. Originally by: Julio Torres I hope CCP will make a stand and not allow battles to be won this way. JV1V should be rolled back to 5am. Great, they can also make a stand and not allow gate camps which would require a node crashing amount of ships to break.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:26:00 - [182] In abscence of sufficient hardware to handle the load, the obvious solution, and the solution CCP has expressed an interest in, is creating more objectives in a war to try and break fleets up. But how are are they ever going to convince the attackers not to try to steamroller any given objective with everything they've got, resulting in the defenders also bringing in everything they've got to defend? ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! Privateers FTW
Tellok	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:32:00 - [183] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Wait for the new client and other optimizations to fleet battle.. Obviously the playerbase has outrun CCP's ability to keep up with them.. rofl its allways been crap guess what no matter what they do to it its always going to be crap, you cannot polish a turd the game is fundamentaly FLAWED.
McDeth187 GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:41:00 - [184] Originally by: Julio Torres When enough defenders got back one. Wave 3 jumps in, node crash. And wave 4, gets a virtually free entry to system. Rinse and repeat. Errrr, no. I think the part about the other waves of ships getting past you're gatecamp unmolested was the part where your fleet commander told you guys to warp to the pos instead of staying at the gate like you should have. Correct me if I'm wrong here..
Homo Mortiferus	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:56:00 - [185] time to buy some new hardware,CCP... thanks to Valar for the job he had done,anyways.
Fokus Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 10:57:00 - [186] Is anybody else just really excited that battles have the potential to reach this kind of scale now? I mean, granted, I didn't get to participate because I couldn't login. But I really love the idea of alliances bringing 1000 dudes to a fight that an enemy can be prepared for but is worth fighting for anyways. If nothing else, hopefully this will push the eve nodes/servers in a direction that can handle this type of action in the future. Regardless of the outcome of this fight, war in Eve is escalating, and I am really excited at the prospect of actually having battles like this in the future. I think everyone agrees that this would have been a lot more fun without all of the crashing and the lag and the being unable to login. But I wouldn't really say anyone is to blame. I don't even know if CCP could have done much to help the situation with the 24 hours notice. And I certainly dont think anyone should have had to use half of their fleet. But who knows, in the future...we may just get battles like these!
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:02:00 - [187] The hell of it is, battles this size raise some really pressing issues about the capabilities of hardware to manage them. Even in the best possible case - one grid being run on one server, I don't think things would have been any better since that's exactly what was happening here. At this point, the only way to make it work is probably going to be for CCP to look REALLY hard at the code that handles on grid interaction. That said, I'm confident it should technically be possible, if only because BF1942 servers with 128 players were possible and the data EVE sends is greatly reduced.
Fokus Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:06:00 - [188] Hooray! It's possible probably! Good, cheerful news!
Hoshino Minmatar Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:14:00 - [189] Quote: You brought a lag to the battle, nothing more. If you were skilled fighters you would have brought equal numbers of skilled battleship pilots to match what was assembled to face you. Instead you jumped in tech1 crap, there was simply nothing these ship types could do to our snipers, therefore i have to assume you intended to lag the system. Now why the hell do you think that the attacker should bring equal numbers. Hell this is war if he could bring 2k he should cause its not about giving you a chance to kill him its about total annihilation. Its about trying to *****you guys so bad that you dont have a snowball chance in hell of wining and all you can do about it is watch as it is done. Whit that said you should mabe read "THE ART OF WAR" you could mabe learn somthing.
Fokus Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:20:00 - [190] Make sure you dont get that mixed up with the book 'The War of Art' though. That book will just make you feel bad about playing Eve. Don't read it if you enjoy doing things. But I agree, I think people should be bringing everybody they can! The more the merrier..until the node crashes. But even then, if you decide to only use half your fleet how do you decide who gets to go and who doesnt? A lot of people like to blow stuff up. It seems unfair to ask.
Vagilicious	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:51:00 - [191] Edited by: Vagilicious on 16/02/2007 11:48:11 Wow.. I guess Karma does exist after all! Well thanks a lot everyone for messing up eve again.. this is where the much vaunted ideal of "0.0 > everything else in eve" leads to? I don't recall a node crashing ever due to missions or mining.. maybe with the exception of Jita.. Oh, but props to Valar for trying to sort the mess out!
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:56:00 - [192] Originally by: Vagilicious Edited by: Vagilicious on 16/02/2007 11:48:11 Wow.. I guess Karma does exist after all! Well thanks a lot everyone for messing up eve again.. this is where the much vaunted ideal of "0.0 > everything else in eve" leads to? I don't recall a node crashing ever due to missions or mining.. maybe with the exception of Jita.. Oh, but props to Valar for trying to sort the mess out! Clearly people playing the game is wrong.
Mindlles 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.16 11:57:00 - [193] Originally by: Malachon Draco [Cheaters on both sides. I prefer playing with player cheaters than with Dev cheaters, but I guess your opinion is different. Cheaters on both sides ur correct at, and i rather not play with anny off them, thats why i dont do it =)
Gmoorick R.u.S.H. - Fanatics	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:51:00 - [194] Originally by: Vagilicious Edited by: Vagilicious on 16/02/2007 11:48:11 Well thanks a lot everyone for messing up eve again.. this is where the much vaunted ideal of "0.0 > everything else in eve" leads to? I don't recall a node crashing ever due to missions or mining.. maybe with the exception of Jita.. 0.0 will allways be > then anything else in Eve. Did you ever thought about Eve economy ? Almost everything built in Empire goes to 0.0. You mine to get minerals, another guy buys them, then build something that will be burned in a couple of days in a battle in 0.0. Someone got podded in a battle and he goes to Jita to by new imps, that some mission runner got from agent. Etc, etc, etc. So whenever you think, that Eve is mining and doing missions in Empire, don't forget, that everything you produced will be burned to wrecks in 0.0.
Gmoorick R.u.S.H. - Fanatics	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:51:00 - [195] Originally by: Vagilicious Edited by: Vagilicious on 16/02/2007 11:48:11 Well thanks a lot everyone for messing up eve again.. this is where the much vaunted ideal of "0.0 > everything else in eve" leads to? I don't recall a node crashing ever due to missions or mining.. maybe with the exception of Jita.. 0.0 will allways be > then anything else in Eve. Did you ever thought about Eve economy ? Almost everything built in Empire goes to 0.0. You mine to get minerals, another guy buys them, then build something that will be burned in a couple of days in a battle in 0.0. Someone got podded in a battle and he goes to Jita to by new imps, that some mission runner got from agent. Etc, etc, etc. So whenever you think, that Eve is mining and doing missions in Empire, don't forget, that everything you produced will be burned to wrecks in 0.0.
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:57:00 - [196] factional and officer gear from deep space gets taken to empire for sale at inflated prices to mission runners that are cashed up
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:57:00 - [197] factional and officer gear from deep space gets taken to empire for sale at inflated prices to mission runners that are cashed up
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:59:00 - [198] Originally by: hotgirl933 factional and officer gear from deep space gets taken to empire for sale at inflated prices to mission runners that are cashed up God Bless them and their demand for DCUs which I would never use!
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 12:59:00 - [199] Originally by: hotgirl933 factional and officer gear from deep space gets taken to empire for sale at inflated prices to mission runners that are cashed up God Bless them and their demand for DCUs which I would never use!
Vagilicious	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:21:00 - [200] The point is, I'm not trying to say that "Everything else in eve > 0.0". My gripe is that a lot of the attitude on these forums is that people should leave empire and head out to 0.0. The game should be played as YOU want to play it. I'm well aware that there is a circular trade going on with all of eve and it couldn't function as a universe without it. When something like this affects the rest of us who want to play however, it's the majority who suffer. TBH I don't know a workaround for this; obviously Alliances feel the need to defend 'their' space as much as others 'need' to attack it. All fair and valid modes of play, if only there was a way to stop it from affecting everyone else.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:23:00 - [201] Originally by: Vagilicious When something like this affects the rest of us who want to play however, it's the majority who suffer. How were you affected by this in anyway?
Vagilicious	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:29:00 - [202] Being lagged out during a mission in a system with hardly anyone in local (<5) probably qualifies - although in fairness it might have been caused by something completely different, but I'm not a great believer in coincidence.
Logi3 EVE Corporation 1631	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:31:00 - [203] Anyone else think its time for CCP to rethink the single shard idea? Maybe running two shards? One for Empire and one for 0.0 systems. Large scale battles have been plagued by lag since i can remember from the beging of Eve Reformed Pirate
Himo Amasacia Minmatar Elite United Corp Antigo Dominion	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:34:00 - [204] I think this is very very unfortunate. It is Unfair on all sides. People that somply wanted to come and have a fun fight cant. The attackers cannot put a fair attack on the system and the devenders cannot fight for the system. everyone looses. (By the way I dont want to flame but jumping a load of cheap stuff into a system to draw fire and maybe kill bubbles is a ligitimate tactic. Have a read of David Webbers Starfire novels, such as "On Death Ground" to see good examples of it. Anyway thats off the point..) I think it is time to accept that the ideal of the shardless server idea has run its course. CCP has done a stunning achievement in what they have done with one server. But Its time to face facts. With the forces needed to knock out a POS + what is needed to defeng it 800 people is going to be breached on a regular basis. Its time for a rethink. My suggestions. For now, everyone that wants to participate in a large battle must be moved to a different server, possibly the test server. Yes this means that attackers will have to announce their intention to attack and so forth, but for now its the fairest way. Less lag too Second. Maybe it time for CCP to announce a reset. that way they can actually rebuild the code from the ground up to optomise it properly. The code is probably creaking from having stuff tagged onto it and having a fresh new build will help everything. Besides it means they can have another good look at the combat and ecomimic system and see what needs to be done to correct some of the glaring flaws. Yes you will have some people that will go ape****, but I think if CCP said "ok guys, reset in 3 months. Thanks and have a great time till then" most people woudl accept it and it would be all out warfare for 3 months with everyone having an utter blast. Anyway my two cent "Constant practice devoted to one subject often outdoes both intelligence and skill." -Cicero "Genius may have it's limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - Elbert Hubbard
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:38:00 - [205] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 16/02/2007 13:36:00 Originally by: Logi3 Anyone else think its time for CCP to rethink the single shard idea? Maybe running two shards? One for Empire and one for 0.0 systems. Large scale battles have been plagued by lag since i can remember from the beging of Eve AND Originally by: Himo Amasacia crap Ha ha ha ha ha You're funny ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:48:00 - [206] Originally by: Logi3 Anyone else think its time for CCP to rethink the single shard idea? Maybe running two shards? One for Empire and one for 0.0 systems. That wouldn't help because it is the underlying system and the algorithms which cause the lag. For example I think the alogs work such that a twice large fleet needs more than 2 times more computing/io/whatever power, mabye 4 times, in any case more than linear as much capacity. Also the space is not really clustered, not divided into sections which you can assign to different cpus/threads. When you are at a gate for example, everything is in the same space (i think). But for answers instead of guesses you need to bug the devs
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:51:00 - [207] Firstly, I'd like to say, "bravo" - you've set your mind to the task and managed to derive completely the wrong conclusions. Originally by: Himo Amasacia I think it is time to accept that the ideal of the shardless server idea has run its course. CCP has done a stunning achievement in what they have done with one server. But Its time to face facts. With the forces needed to knock out a POS + what is needed to defeng it 800 people is going to be breached on a regular basis. Its time for a rethink. My suggestions. For now, everyone that wants to participate in a large battle must be moved to a different server, possibly the test server. Yes this means that attackers will have to announce their intention to attack and so forth, but for now its the fairest way. Less lag too Go learn how the cluster works. Realize it runs on separate nodes. Realize that while we were sitting at the login screen, people 8 systems away could login in no time at all and do trade, check the map etc. Realize, that in fact, you have no idea how the EVE server cluster works since if you did you wouldn't have said this. Devs moved the node to a single server after the crash and things improved considerably, but even before, only systems around JV1V were affected (the single server essentially was to get the 1500 or so people split into those in JV1V and those waiting to jump in). Originally by: Himo Amasacia Second. Maybe it time for CCP to announce a reset. that way they can actually rebuild the code from the ground up to optomise it properly. The code is probably creaking from having stuff tagged onto it and having a fresh new build will help everything. Besides it means they can have another good look at the combat and ecomimic system and see what needs to be done to correct some of the glaring flaws. Yes you will have some people that will go ape****, but I think if CCP said "ok guys, reset in 3 months. Thanks and have a great time till then" most people woudl accept it and it would be all out warfare for 3 months with everyone having an utter blast. First of all, this makes no sense. At all. Why would recoding and optimizing server side software affect the data structures that hold sovereignty, player information, transactions etc? See above with "you have no idea how the cluster works". Second of all, I, and many others, would simply quit EVE and never come back if this happened. We did not pay money for a persistent 'verse to suddenly have everything erased. Fortunately, CCP, are a lot smarter then to ever do something like this.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:58:00 - [208] Originally by: James Duar stuff Thank you for putting into words the concepts I was unable to. ---------- IBTL \o/ Fix the ******* map! No such thing as griefing in Eve
alpheon Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:02:00 - [209] many thanks to valar for getting online at an ungodly hour to do the work he did. the lag death and node crashes were beyond his ability to repair, but not because of any fault of his. I hope he's sipping his coffee in the morning *****ing about all of these lame ass nerdy white guys in their moms basements keeping him awake at night. And his extremely HAWT icelantic girl friend is nodding paitently knowing how hard he works to make her happy. Damn you LV, Damn you Goons, Damn you RA, Damn you Curse, you're keeping valar from his sleep and his HAWT icelantic Girlfriend... :) Thanks valar.
Fabienne Runestar Ars Caelestis Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:36:00 - [210] Valar you rock man! I agree with my corpmate Alpheon. If you don't have a hawt Icelandic Girlfriend, or wife, I feel sorry for them not being there for you. If you do, they rock for putting up with us, thanks! Now onto the problem at hand. People have said hack 'sploit etc.. Well Anyway that you try and spin it, this battle would not have happened if there were no Titans. So in the interest of preserving the game, I suggest CCP remove Titans, and Motherships from the game. CCP should reimburse everyone for their Titan and Motherships (Heck I will be nice even those destroyed.) Since the servers can not handle the amount of forces needed to kill one in production, let alone in space they should not be in the game at this time. Anyone remember mines? How they used to be in the game, and creators of massive lag? They got removed.. Another suggestion would be to make Titans and Motherships capable of being webbed and scrammed like every other ship in the game. While this wouldn't stop what happened this morning it would make the things more killable. LV you all should feel blessed. When ASCN was being assaulted by BoB in AZN, it took us over a week to get the Devs to reinforce our node. Even still it ran like Jita. Valar got on to your node in record time. I hope that is part of the 'new player friendly' CCP. ---

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