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Clarification about shooting inside PoS shields

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 03:55:00 - [1] Originally by: Haffrage AFAIK you can't even get a lock in pos shields, and smartbombs won't activate. Yes, however, there is a fairly well known exploit that has been shown to be used rather conclusivly that allows you to do so. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 09:59:00 - [2] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 09:59:24 Originally by: hotgirl933 question is will d2s titan be given back or will the kill stand d2s titan was not targeted with a passive targeter inside a POS bubble. He was hit by a micro smartbomb by a spy outside the bubble. It is possible, due to the definition of exploting being "abusing a game mechanic to achieve an unintended result" where the aggro timer was intended to be used to keep people from avoiding combat and not to kill them when they legitimatly log[as the pilot was not in combat for a significant amount of time before the aggression timer was applied], that the titan may be reimbursed. But it is unlikly. ----------------- As for whether or not the video shows an exploit. Not only does the video clearly show volleys being launched but the time from first impact to last impact is about 104 seconds. The max flight time on a citadel torpedo is about 135 seconds. If we use the base, unmodified speed and look at where the torpedos are incoming from as well as the max range of the ships that could launch from those areas you find that. At 750m/s it takes 160 second to traverse 120km. So clearly, the missiles cannot be moving at minimum speed and must be affected by the missile projection skill. Since these are dread pilots we are talking about, level 4 is an absolute minimum. At this rate, it takes 114 seconds for the missiles to traverse 120km. O.K. you say, so if all the ships were outside 115km or so it could happen, right? Well yes, except that you can clearly see that not all the ships firing are outside of 120km. How can you see this? Well, the pilot frapsing highlights many ships that are shooting and you can see the salvos and impacts flowing. Now, at 1:14 in the video the pilot frapsing selects one of the phoenixes shooting. He is 64km away from the pilot. At 1:04 the pilot has the target highlighted, who is 16km away from him in the general direction of the ships attacking him. This gives us a general distance to the target of around 55-60km. Which gives us a max missile fight time of 80 seconds[assuming the dreadnaught pilot has zero ranks in missile projection, which is ridiculous] and a reasonable asssumed flight time of about 55-60 seconds. However, missiles are still landing and being fired at a time the ship warps away, and can clearly be seen at 1:35. 1 minute and 35 seconds equals 95 seconds. 95 Seconds is above all our reasonable assumptions of missile flight time and even above the unreasonable assumptions! Since the flight time of the missiles is below the total bombardment time it is impossible for the missiles to have been fired at the ship while it was outside the POS bubble, even if the ship had moved from outside the POS bubble to its bombarded location instantly at the time the video fraps was started. Since we have ruled out any legitimate manner in which the missiles could have been fired all other answers are exploits, because they require the targeting of a ship inside a POS bubble which should not be possible under the typical rules and is classed an exploit. I.E. its an exploit. And you cant argue any other way. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:01:00 - [3] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch 2) If you are locked outside of the POS bubble and travel back inside it the lock stays. Stop blaming hax and exploits for pilot shortcomings or errors. This is false, if you are locked outside a POS bubble and travel back inside the POS bubble the lock is broken. If the lock is not broken the game mechanics are either not working, or there is an exploit in play. I suggest you fiddle around with POSs before you comment on how they bubbles are supposed to work. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:09:00 - [4] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 10:06:09 Originally by: Chribba afaik that movie is old and that's now how it works nowdays. I just tried on my own POS, you are not able to lock with a passive targetter. Locking outside and have the ship move inside the shields works fine however I lost lock as soon as I activated a module. The video cannot be old, it shows the current fleet system in operation, and no other sieging conflicts occured recently within the time frame of that implementation. As well, it shows a character gaining stat bonuses from a fleet commander. Fleet commanders cannot give bonuses without wing commander 5. As well it shows 3 wings with people in them meaning that the fleet commander must have at least fleet commander 3. Wing commander is a rank 8 skill and fleet commander a rank 12 skill. This puts minimum training time for the skills somewhere around a month and a half. Kali was released in early november. Which puts the date on the video at the earliest around december 15th assuming the fleet commander burned up the tree to the skill without taking any detours. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Kessa Nova Originally by: Chribba afaik that movie is old and that's now how it works nowdays. I just tried on my own POS, you are not able to lock with a passive targetter. Locking outside and have the ship move inside the shields works fine however I lost lock as soon as I activated a module. Have you got an alt in your corp you could fire a missile at when he is outside the shields, and tell us what happens if he moves inside the shields before the missile hits? Irrelevent, it is impossible for the situation you describe to have happened in the video. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:12:00 - [6] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Goumindong This is false, if you are locked outside a POS bubble and travel back inside the POS bubble the lock is broken. If the lock is not broken the game mechanics are either not working, or there is an exploit in play. I suggest you fiddle around with POSs before you comment on how they bubbles are supposed to work. I stand corrected. I think your maths is a crock of crap though, im not sure all that nerdiness proved anything. Anyway, I'm sure we'll see some crowing if the petition gets reimbursed. Why is my math a crock of crap? Watch the video, look at the locations of the ships and the distances given on the overview and by selection. Check the speed of citadel torps. Compare the dsitance they have to travel with the time that the bombardment occurs. if the bombardment occurs for longer than the missile flight time, then there is a bug or an exploit in effect. Since that can clearly be seen, there is a bug or exploit in effect. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:45:00 - [7] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 10:41:48 Originally by: Chribba I'll withdraw my statement about the movie being old, I was mixing it up with this one Linkage I thought the same thing until i looked a bit more closely, no fault there. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:57:00 - [8] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 10:54:41 Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte Originally by: Chribba Update on missiles:snip snip no snip, no snip snip Then again, that info could have some very bad consequences. Like damaging structures inside a POS without destroying it... Probably should remove it, test it, and then get it out of the game... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:02:00 - [9] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/02/2007 13:02:36 Originally by: Ishquar Teh'Sainte Originally by: Kessa Nova Originally by: Goumindong Why is my math a crock of crap? Wel, I'm a bit of a air-head, and certainly no good at math .. but I missed the bit where you took the speed of the target ship in to account in your calcualtions. Care to point it out to me? i think he left it out .. which is no problem at all imho why? citadel torpedos move without skills 750m/s a carrier moves without skills 75m/s so the speed of the target in comparison to the speed of the charges is around 10%. yeah, his (numerical) result will not be 100% correct - but still significant enough. a target traveling directly away from the torpedo traveling 1050 km/s at a speed of 100km/s would, for a 60km distance, travel 5.7 km. This distance would equal about 6 seconds of travel time for the torpedo. Or a 9.5% deviation from the numbers given. That is +/- 9.5% since that could be taken either way depending on which way the carrier is traveling.[slightly less if traveling at the torpedo, which results in a smaller deviation, but +/- 10% is good enough for our purposes] That assumes that the target was traveling directly away from the torpedos however, which cannot be gaurenteed. Adding 10% to each value returns a 88 second unreasonable number and a 66 second reasonable number, still well within the bounds given by the video. It sould also be noted that the ship is clearly within the POS shields and has been for a significant time[if the exploit occured because it was outside the bubble then entered it] and we are discounting on the total time insdie the bubble that the ship has been taking fire. If only half the distance it traveled when the missiles were shot at it, then this would be 30 seconds of travel time, extending our flight time nessesity even farther. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Jiekon Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer Well apparently the GMs said it was caused by D2 not having set the pos forcefield. Tests some people made have not been able to reproduce that regardless of whether the pw was set or not, maybe you can test that / comment on it? I have been able to shoot non boarded ships and structures inside a non passworded, online starbase. The powers that be have said that this is by design. I have been unable to target or shoot boarded ships inside a non passworded, online starbase. I cannot comment on the D2 issue as i do not have all the facts of the events. Does this happen by default? Or is there a specific manner in which you have to target them? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 13:55:00 - [11] Thanks, that clears at least one thing up. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:36:00 - [12] Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich It does seem od, but we have No way of knowing what went on, it could have been clientside lag.....SHip looks like its in POS, but actually the client havent caught up with the server yet...... Unless the entire fleet was client side lagged/desynched yet still able to update multipule ships leaving and entering the grid at the time of the occurance? The fraps comes from a battleship in the fleet, it the carrier pilot were desynched it would appear on the correct space for the battleship. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Kessa Nova You guys are looking for a targetting exploit that doesn't exist. Flakey math or not, my description of how this works is correct, and Chribba even tested and confirmed it. I hate to tell you this, but you really are all barking up the wrong tree. Still, easier to think that the bad guys are cheats I suppose. Losing to cheats is so "meh", but getting beaten fair and square is just impossible. Shrugs The math isnt flakey it is 100% conclusive. The effect seen can not have happened if the missiles were launched before the ship entered the POS bubble. It is impossible.' Originally by: EPSILON DELTA So far the only explaination for what happened is 1- exploit / bug 2- no password on the POS (hard to imagine...), in which case its a simple matter for dev to check password modification log for the said POS. 3- sync / lag problem, unlikely since that means 2 ships out of sync and nobody in the blob could tell. (and it would also fall under server problem) 4- missiles were fired before the ships went into POS, but any idiot who watched the video could tell which ship launched it and at the moment of launch the target was already inside POS shield. right now 1st and 2nd are most likely, I suspect some form of 1st but I'm sure devs will somehow blame it on the no-password theory and just leave it at that. 2 is impossible. It is not intented to be able to shoot at a boarded ship within a POS bubble, only an unboarded ship or structure. In the video the carrier is selected by the frapser and confirmed as being boarded. 4 is similarly impossible, since the missiles can not have been launched before the target entered the sheild[the vid even shows launches after the ship has entered the bubble]. That leaves us with 3, or 1. 3 is highly unlikly because that would require the entire fleet to be desynced, and the video shows many ships that would all have to be desynced, but desynced in such as way as to record multupule jump outs and ins while enemy multipule dread pilots could fire at a single target ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 17:02:00 - [14] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2007 17:01:33 Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2007 16:59:37 Originally by: ALPHA12125 D2 did the exact same thing to us in pf-q. the ship was beeing shot at by 20-30 odd bs outside posshield and the carrier moved inside the pos shield but was still being shot allthough he was at almost 0m to the pos tower. d2 got the carrier to structure and after 4-5 minutes they finally couldnt shoot nomore. even the other carriers couldnt target him to repair him. we have screenshots and fraps of that too. so did d2 use that exploit too ? no they didnt, cause it is no damn exploit. the client was out of sync probably in ym- i have seen worse lag related stuff than that. The video is taken from the POV of another member of the fleet of the carrier. The client was not out of sync. There is another video which i believe is also linked in this thread frapsed by another character, which also shows the same thing. As well, the video shows multipule warp-ins and warp-outs, which, if the client were desynced, would not occur. Originally by: Kessa Nova Edited by: Kessa Nova on 18/02/2007 14:40:53 Originally by: Riggwelter It does seem a bit strange that some 90s after the vid starts multiple volleys are still hitting the Thantos when most the hostile ships except for an odd one are within 70km of it. At those ranges the flight time would be less than 70s. Citadel torps travel at 750m/s. That means it would take just over 93 seconds to travel 70km, and that is ignoring that the speed is relatively lower to a target moving in the same direction. First to last impact is 95 seconds. Rounding up your estimation to 94 seconds it is still impossible to have occured by normal game mechanics. edit: yes, they get bonuses from missile projection, but in the interest of fairness it good to estimate based on the range of possible options. Since missile projection 0 is technically possible, it should be included in the estimates. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 18:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Kessa Nova Originally by: Goumindong First to last impact is 95 seconds. Rounding up your estimation to 94 seconds it is still impossible to have occured by normal game mechanics. I thought you said the ship was flying away at 75m/s? That would give a flight time of nearly 104 seconds from 70km. Enough time for the ship to be over 7km inside the bubble. 70km would factor in the ship moving and change. The ship in question cannot be 70km from the target. If the ship was 16km below the frapsing ship[its not, its in the direction of the attacker] and the lines between the target and the frapser and the attacker and the frapser formed a 90 degree angle then the target is at most 59km away from the attacker. [16^2+57^2]^(1/2) = 59.2 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 18:11:00 - [16] Originally by: Kessa Nova Edited by: Kessa Nova on 18/02/2007 18:00:22 Originally by: Riggwelter It would give a flight time less than 70s you keep forgetting that even a really poor Phoenix pilot is going to have a minimum of missile projection 4. Well, the 70km figure isn't one I came up with. I would have gone for 110km, and that would be conservative (it would assume the distance to the furthest ship, with the frapsing ship being directly behind the target ship when selected .. it could be over 140km if the frapser is between the target ship and the most distant hostile.). The question is, could my interpretation be possible, not is it likely. If it is possible, then the video is not proof of an exploit. Yes, and its fairly cleary not. Also, you did pull 70km out of your rear. The farthest ship that the missiles in question could have landed from is 57km away ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 19:13:00 - [17] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2007 19:10:40 Whether or not it was an intentional exploit or a bug in the system relating to missiles[thank goodness we can see missiles with effects turned off, or there would be no vid proof] or shooting at ships entering a POS field in general the ship should be returned. But the range of problems, due to the verification seen is either "bug" or "exploit", and if the dreads shooting at the ship knew the target was inside the POS bubble they should be banned. Shooting through POS shields has been discussed too many times to know that you should not be able to do it. And if you continue to do something that you know you should not be able to do when that action would constitue an exploit, you are exploting. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 21:35:00 - [18] Edited by: Goumindong on 18/02/2007 21:34:02 Its officialy God damn retarded now. Quote: Hi, All ships that does not belong to the corporation that owns the POS can be targeted as long as no password is set, be they boarded or not. Best regards, Senior GM Xamother Document these POS "features" now! ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.18 21:44:00 - [19] What I want to know is why corp members in the POS bubble couldnt then give that guy remote assistance and why enemies couldnt be targeted by him. This is ******* ludicrous. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.20 06:39:00 - [20] Edited by: Goumindong on 20/02/2007 06:38:04 Originally by: Shadowdeath snip You do realize that by giving the account that the ship was in fact in the force field and locked, that given all previous accounts of the way the game should have worked before the GM response to this petition you were exploiting a known bug. Right? You have never, before this incident been able to shoot at anything inside a POS bubble that isnt the tower. If you are shooting at anything inside the bubble that isnt a tower then you have been exploiting according to knowledge given before this incident. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.22 23:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Gnulpie Any answers from the devs so far? Last I know they said they want to look into it but it is difficult stuff, yet they wanted to give us answers at the beginning of the week. Now it is almost over. Yes, multipule. Sharkbait hasnt come back since his first post, he probably hasnt found what he was looking for, or is quite busy with other issues. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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