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Boliknar The Shadow Order Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Jaggeh a problem with most of you is that you fail to realize that a tactic no matter how distastful is till valid if its within the game mechanics. Im sure bob had every intention of going toe to toe with titan warfare but if an oppertunity is there then it has to be taken. Well played D2 for keeping their titan on the front lines. well played bob for getting your capital fleet there in record time. stop crying. So exploiting any known bug is ok because they are in existing game mehcanics at the time. Any thing goes as long as it is the existing "game mechanics" so how is it you were just griping earlier about RA farming a "bugged" plex. Its withing the "game mechanics" right. Why do people get mad abiut people logging off them immediatly logging on another toon on the same account so your ship disappears regardles of agression counter...Its within game mechanics right? Silly logic leads to silly arguements.
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Boliknar Originally by: Jaggeh a problem with most of you is that you fail to realize that a tactic no matter how distastful is till valid if its within the game mechanics. Im sure bob had every intention of going toe to toe with titan warfare but if an oppertunity is there then it has to be taken. Well played D2 for keeping their titan on the front lines. well played bob for getting your capital fleet there in record time. stop crying. So exploiting any known bug is ok because they are in existing game mehcanics at the time. Any thing goes as long as it is the existing "game mechanics" so how is it you were just griping earlier about RA farming a "bugged" plex. Its withing the "game mechanics" right. Why do people get mad abiut people logging off them immediatly logging on another toon on the same account so your ship disappears regardles of agression counter...Its within game mechanics right? Silly logic leads to silly arguements. oh the irony. If its a bug, its not existing game mechanics its a BUG
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:30:00 - [33] I just don't understand how D2 could be so careless. Are they so rich that they have forgotten what it was like to regard any capital ship as precious? e.g. "Ok guys, i'm logging off (in revelation). Let me know when I disappear (still logged on teamspeak)". "Confirmed, you are gone & off the scanner". "Ok, cool, cya guys later, have fun". How hard is that to do? Especially with a ship worth the same as some t2 bpos. Props to BoB, I consider this no different than Creamster using an invincible nanophoon, AAA logoffski tactics, or any of the log on traps that have been done by many/all alliances. We've all done things shady, and CCP can't keep up with it. D2, get over it, you could have prevented this easily. If you can come up with a workaround for the above mentioned tactics, then you should have no problem overcoming this one. Hopefully AAA loses their Titan to a log off kill as well, would serve them right for all the exploiting they do.
Cosmo Raata Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:50:00 - [34] Also equally interesting is that you have an argument that you can't win. The side that likes the fact that D2 lost a Titan argues it was legit. The side that lost the Titan argues low blow. I dont think it would matter which side it happened to, loyalty & bias opinions will always cause the offender to feel justified and the victim to cry. Only fact you can rely on it the people not involved & the Devs. Those that want to accuse Devs of siding with BoB are low balling by even saying that BoB is full of Devs.
Troubadour Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:30:00 - [35] Originally by: Frygok Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Just trying add some perspective You seem to think fighting D2 is just an exercise in mashing the f1-f8 keys and not in out-thinking them too. Just trying to add some insight. Oh, I agree. They certainly outsmarted D2, if you look at strictly from a "Winning is everything, no matter how" point of view. What my point really was, that SirMolle and BoB in general had been ridiculing D2 as a sucky alliance. Why then, is a "clever use of game mechanics" needed? Why not just kick the crap out of them, if they are so weak? It seems a bit odd. espionage is a measure of strength too.
Simon Monkoto AirHawk Alliance Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 21:58:00 - [36] I've been reading through the various post's on D2's titan loss and I can see both sides of the issue. On one side BoB managed to get a sneaky kill of a titan when they had the opportunity and they took it. Frankly if I have the opportunity to kill off a large enemy asset with relative ease I am going to do it every time as long as it's within the game rules. On the other hand the method that they went through to get that kill is questionable at best and a possible use of an exploit at the worst. Frankly I think that if D2 has petitioned this Titan loss they are waiting to see what CCP's response is to this method of killing. If it's ok by CCP then I think BoB had watch their capital ships very closely as I'm sure D2 may try something just as sneaky to take them out. I mean if it's ok for BoB to do it has to be ok for other alliances/corps to do right?
Angeles Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.02.17 22:59:00 - [37] Originally by: Simon Monkoto I've been reading through the various post's on D2's titan loss and I can see both sides of the issue. On one side BoB managed to get a sneaky kill of a titan when they had the opportunity and they took it. Frankly if I have the opportunity to kill off a large enemy asset with relative ease I am going to do it every time as long as it's within the game rules. On the other hand the method that they went through to get that kill is questionable at best and a possible use of an exploit at the worst. Frankly I think that if D2 has petitioned this Titan loss they are waiting to see what CCP's response is to this method of killing. If it's ok by CCP then I think BoB had watch their capital ships very closely as I'm sure D2 may try something just as sneaky to take them out. I mean if it's ok for BoB to do it has to be ok for other alliances/corps to do right? no its not ok to abuse the aggro timer for ships that have to log because RL calls for them to be AFK. i think CCP were trying to force ships to 'commit to combat' not imprison players with the aggression timer.
JackOfHearts Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.17 23:04:00 - [38] Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. Are you angry and upset? Can I suggest taking a vitamin or eat some fruit. It works very well for me. I usually have a banana and apple everyday at lunch, it's very nice. Havea great day!
Nastratu Minmatar Serefon Creatin	Posted - 2007.02.17 23:13:00 - [39] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 17/02/2007 14:35:51 The aggro timer was never meant as a means to keep people in game indefinatly, without them knowing. BOD never set out to kill that titan in a fight, they set out to abuse an ingame mechanic in such a way that they KNEW the titan pilot wouldnt spot that he was aggroed. This by definition is an exploit of ingame mechanics. Its no better than using NPC cans to keep aggro. Which i might add has been stated by Jeikon(dev) as an exploit. Aggro timer was never intended as a means to catch people who don't use common sense or read the forums or think much before doing anything. It was to stop people logging out in combat. If anything it shows the need for a lowsec like timer. says it best Lets rephrase this a bit here: The contract system was never meant as a means to cheat people, without them knowing. Scammers never openly reveal that they are scamming, they set out to abuse an ingame mechanic in such a way that they KNOW their victims wouldn't spot the scam. This by definition is an exploit of ingame mechanics. Its no better than using NPC cans to keep aggro. Which i might add has been stated by Jeikon(dev) as an exploit. Contract system was never intended as a means to scam stupid people who don't use common sense, don't read forums, and don't think much before doing. It was to trade ships and items with other players and be able to set up auction in game. Now think about this for a while. Whose fault was it? The guy who was flying 150 bil investment wrongfully thinking that he is safe in the middle of a war with an alliance that already ganked a Titan and taking so little precaution possibly with spies all around him? Or the guys who used the aggro timer as it has been used all over EVE, ganking people who logged off being unaware of danger? No where does it say that you cannot use the aggro timer to gank somebody if they are unaware of danger. If they make a mistake in judgement thinking that they are safe, that is their mistake, not an exploit of the timer.
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.18 00:56:00 - [40] Originally by: JackOfHearts Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. Are you angry and upset? Can I suggest taking a vitamin or eat some fruit. It works very well for me. I usually have a banana and apple everyday at lunch, it's very nice. Havea great day! Not even remotely angry or upset. (Vitamins are bad for you btw). Fruit is always nice. Usually have an orange myself. That still doesn't negate the fact that so many people choose when to go all righteous and when to forget that yesterday they were righteous and today it's ok to not quite play by the rules. Reading back my post missed the point of what I was trying to say. The real gist of it was the humor I saw in that a lot of the people absolutely SCREAMING about D2 losing a Titan and how it was an exploit were the same faces I saw defending ctrl-q and vice versa. It was really more of an observation on the dichotomy of the positions.
Pherusa Plumosa Minmatar Freedom for All The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:10:00 - [41] A friend of mine got a gm warning because he was "phishing" with cargo-containers. To jettison cargos is a valid ingame mechanic, but he got warned. Also his pirate friends suiciding into afk industrials Jita got a GM warning. But abusing the aggression countdown to blow up the ship of an offline pilot is allowed? I must admit, I can not cleary discover the principle of what is "allowed" ingame mechanics and "not-allowed" ingame mechanics.
Tetsujin Caldari Band of Brosefs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:30:00 - [42] Originally by: Wibiq All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. Personally the point is not to do with scamming or veteran player/new player, it's that the game mechanic that was taken advantage of is probably one of the worst game mechanics ever developed. An invisible timer that determines whether you're safe to log out or not, how can this be anything but a brilliant idea?
The Assyrian Mound of Severed Heads	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Tetsujin Originally by: Wibiq All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. Personally the point is not to do with scamming or veteran player/new player, it's that the game mechanic that was taken advantage of is probably one of the worst game mechanics ever developed. An invisible timer that determines whether you're safe to log out or not, how can this be anything but a brilliant idea? Cheating is wrong! says the Goonie
Rob Graves	Posted - 2007.02.18 01:54:00 - [44] Originally by: The Assyrian Cheating is wrong! says the Goonie Actually he said CCP implemented a _brilliant_ system. But don't let the actual meaning of the words get in the way of your interpretation.
Plim Gallente Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:13:00 - [45] Originally by: Wibiq Originally by: JackOfHearts Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, cÄ=+¢%ÜúZ P»ÖnÅxj ¦So¦+U·+p give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. Are you angry and upset? Can I suggest taking a vitamin or eat some fruit. It works very well for me. I usually have a banana and apple everyday at lunch, it's very nice. Havea great day! Not even remotely angry or upset. (Vitamins are bad for you btw). Fruit is always nice. Usually have an orange myself. Sorry to break this to you but fruits contain vitamins. Yeah bad news I know, you've been poisening yourself with those evil vitamins of doom unawares. You have my sympathy. I would recommend the safer option of eating rocks or some form of sand. ----------------- signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) Hi, can you get CCP to remove T20 from the dev team too? Thanks.
Tetsujin Caldari Band of Brosefs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:24:00 - [46] Originally by: The Assyrian Cheating is wrong! says the Goonie I suggest you take some classes in English and when you're capable of understanding the language a bit better come back. I never said anything about cheating. On second thought, don't come back.
The Assyrian Mound of Severed Heads	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Tetsujin Originally by: The Assyrian Cheating is wrong! says the Goonie I suggest you take some classes in English and when you're capable of understanding the language a bit better come back. I never said anything about cheating. On second thought, don't come back. Nah, it was just another version of the generic, hypocritical Goonie whine. Now you're just crying about a game mechanic, which is hilariously funny, coming from a Goonie.
Tetsujin Caldari Band of Brosefs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.18 02:48:00 - [48] Originally by: The Assyrian Nah, it was just another version of the generic, hypocritical Goonie whine. Now you're just crying about a game mechanic, which is hilariously funny, coming from a Goonie. Okay.
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:44:00 - [49] Originally by: Tetsujin Originally by: The Assyrian Nah, it was just another version of the generic, hypocritical Goonie whine. Now you're just crying about a game mechanic, which is hilariously funny, coming from a Goonie. Okay. Which, like one big circle, comes right back to my point.
Tetsujin Caldari Band of Brosefs GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.02.18 03:56:00 - [50] Originally by: Wibiq Which, like one big circle, comes right back to my point. Execpt for one very glaring difference which is that the contract system you've used in your example does not have any hidden aspects. I'm not really defending either though, just giving you some perspective. A lot of different people say and think a lot of different things.
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Tetsujin Originally by: Wibiq Which, like one big circle, comes right back to my point. Execpt for one very glaring difference which is that the contract system you've used in your example does not have any hidden aspects. I'm not really defending either though, just giving you some perspective. A lot of different people say and think a lot of different things. I'm not defending any of those practices either. I think it's morally reprehensible, but it is as much within game mechanics as piracy and corp theft and valid tactics within Eve, even the contract scams.
Hyolara Katsuromi Caldari Essence Privateers	Posted - 2007.02.18 04:39:00 - [52] You know, I have never once considered Eve a game of honor. Dig around in the forums and you'll see instance after instance of widespread scamming, corp thievery and other forms of what would be considered griefing in other contexts. I believe someone has a quote from Jiekon in another thread (perhaps it was part of their sig) about the aggro timer specifically applying to those from within your own corp. Why would this be? So your own corp could gank you. It's a concept that's been around forever. If you are in my corp, I can pod you endlessly, no penalties. Oh, you're leaving the corp because you tire of the abuse? Ah, there's a 24 hour timer that extends the pain. Nothing is sacred, nothing is fair. Metagaming, scamming, betrayals, all of it adds to the epic dimension of Eve. As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. ps, yeah, I'm an alt, because my main's corp doesn't allow posting on these forums.
James Britanicus Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:49:00 - [53] I blame ccp for failing to put 3 lines of code into teh program that would put an agro timer on the screen eacvh and everytime you have agro. While they are ignoring this can they ignore my request to put a count down timer for the cyno field? That too would be easy. But no, if they fixed the agro timer we wouldn't be fillnig 200xx pages of nonsence about titans. CCP couldn't buy this kinda advertizing. **************************************************************** He thinks he is Uber, if you don't believe me, just ask him :)

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