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Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:38:00 - [1] I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there.
Tiuwaz Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:42:00 - [2] Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 17/02/2007 14:35:51 The aggro timer was never meant as a means to keep people in game indefinatly, without them knowing. BOD never set out to kill that titan in a fight, they set out to abuse an ingame mechanic in such a way that they KNEW the titan pilot wouldnt spot that he was aggroed. This by definition is an exploit of ingame mechanics. Its no better than using NPC cans to keep aggro. Which i might add has been stated by Jeikon(dev) as an exploit. Aggro timer was never intended as a means to catch people out. It was to stop people logging out in combat. If anything it shows the need for a lowsec like timer. says it best ___________________________________
Frygok Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:42:00 - [3] While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Or how does it work with SirMolle posting "The next Titan will be a real kill" after getting Cyvok? Just trying add some perspective
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:45:00 - [4] Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Or how does it work with SirMolle posting "The next Titan will be a real kill" after getting Cyvok? Just trying add some perspective It was ingame mechanics....EVE is not fair. Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Or how does it work with SirMolle posting "The next Titan will be a real kill" after getting Cyvok? Just trying add some perspective It was ingame mechanics....EVE is not fair. hehe.. neither is RL.. just need to work out were to file the petitions for it _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
Arithon Draedus NQX Logistics	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:48:00 - [6] Man.....How many of these threads can there be?!?!?! I do agree however with the fact that a decent titan fight is yet to yield a brilliant result worth the trouble and time of building the ship. Any my guess is that, without some serious fixes, this will never happen. My money is on the next titan being killed in a very similar way. BL D2....I feel for you.
Alumion Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:49:00 - [7] Shooting a ship during the logout process for aggro is hardly an intended game mechanic It was a master plan to destroy an enemy asset, but the attitude won't get any recognition or respect for them. -Not that they care- ---
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:49:00 - [8] Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 17/02/2007 14:35:51 The aggro timer was never meant as a means to keep people in game indefinatly, without them knowing. BOD never set out to kill that titan in a fight, they set out to abuse an ingame mechanic in such a way that they KNEW the titan pilot wouldnt spot that he was aggroed. This by definition is an exploit of ingame mechanics. Its no better than using NPC cans to keep aggro. Which i might add has been stated by Jeikon(dev) as an exploit. Aggro timer was never intended as a means to catch people out. It was to stop people logging out in combat. If anything it shows the need for a lowsec like timer. says it best Again the call to "dummy down" Eve. Taking advantage of another player's inattention is not abusing game mechanics. The pilot obviously knew about log out timers or we wouldn't have all of the complaints and he wouldn't sit in a POS waiting for the timers to run out. The combat log is there to show combat actions. He got caught by a spy and logged his ship off "thinking" he was safe. It's no different than a new player getting ganked in a mission because he thinks that he is safe. Roll with the punches and come back up swinging.
Alumion Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:55:00 - [9] Wasn't the Titan inside a POS before it logged out? ---
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:57:00 - [10] The same people whining about it don't seem to mind when their side uses login traps and similar borderline exploits. Their cries are like those of a little child when his toys are taken away. Not worth paying attention to.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.17 14:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Just trying add some perspective You seem to think fighting D2 is just an exercise in mashing the f1-f8 keys and not in out-thinking them too. Just trying to add some insight.
Ctharth M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:03:00 - [12] why couldnt more ppl be like sadam *******s press secretary.. now he got some of the rigth stuff.. well at least he didnt whine :)??? RL is messy and unfair so is eve. Thats what makes eve great you have something to loose .. and you have to be very carefull at every step. If eve was suposed to run with all those safetys etc. it would be nothing but logging in and turning the rigth autopilot on. and then the client would hunt/mine or whatever by itself. Just remove all player interaction and you will have no possibillity of cheating or using grieftactics. (and eve would not be anything but a gloryfied chatprogram).
Frygok Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:08:00 - [13] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Just trying add some perspective You seem to think fighting D2 is just an exercise in mashing the f1-f8 keys and not in out-thinking them too. Just trying to add some insight. Oh, I agree. They certainly outsmarted D2, if you look at strictly from a "Winning is everything, no matter how" point of view. What my point really was, that SirMolle and BoB in general had been ridiculing D2 as a sucky alliance. Why then, is a "clever use of game mechanics" needed? Why not just kick the crap out of them, if they are so weak? It seems a bit odd.
Jaggeh Gallente Furious Angels	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:16:00 - [14] a problem with most of you is that you fail to realize that a tactic no matter how distastful is till valid if its within the game mechanics. Im sure bob had every intention of going toe to toe with titan warfare but if an oppertunity is there then it has to be taken. Well played D2 for keeping their titan on the front lines. well played bob for getting your capital fleet there in record time. stop crying. --------------------------------------- Furious Angels are recruiting Carpe Pugya Pyga - Seize the Buttocks
Player One Minmatar Die wilde 13	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:21:00 - [15] Edited by: Player One on 17/02/2007 15:19:08 you should all realize ... bob are playing their own game. every other player in this game is only a tool for bob. bob doesn't want to "play" with us. sometimes "use" us, yes. but not "play" and bob has only one goal: to win bobs own version of the game. they dont care about the rest of the players. WTB: Jim Button corpse
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:25:00 - [16] Edited by: xHomicide on 17/02/2007 15:24:40 Just because a game mechanic allows something doesn't mean it is intended. As far as I know the 15 minute agro timer is to prevent pilots from logging off during combat. This was obviously not the case with the D2 titan. The agro timer mechanic was inarguably abused in an unintended way. That sir, is the definition of an exploit. --- http://www.razor-eve.org/killboard/?a=kills Your Signature exceeds max allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels. Mail us if you have any questions -Eldo
Fred0 Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.17 15:30:00 - [17] The Titan is dead. Lets move on. One of the bigger wars ever in EVE has just started so lets focus on that guys. Game on! :)
Kaylana Syi The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:18:00 - [18] Originally by: Fred0 The Titan is dead. Lets move on. One of the bigger wars ever in EVE has just started so lets focus on that guys. Game on! :) what forum is that war on... i wanna get in on it Team Minmatar
Centerfold Caldari Underworld	Posted - 2007.02.17 16:35:00 - [19] Edited by: Centerfold on 17/02/2007 16:32:25 Originally by: Frygok Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Frygok While we are at double standards, how does "We want a challenge" and "D2 are nothing" compare with having to use aggro game mechanics to kill a Titan with an offline pilot? Just trying add some perspective You seem to think fighting D2 is just an exercise in mashing the f1-f8 keys and not in out-thinking them too. Just trying to add some insight. Oh, I agree. They certainly outsmarted D2, if you look at strictly from a "Winning is everything, no matter how" point of view. What my point really was, that SirMolle and BoB in general had been ridiculing D2 as a sucky alliance. Why then, is a "clever use of game mechanics" needed? Why not just kick the crap out of them, if they are so weak? It seems a bit odd. AAA should know why "clever use of game mechanics" is used in EVE. If you don't, ask your friends in RAT.
Ascend Alt eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:17:00 - [20] Why another thread? Again, totally pointless, bob fanbois will praise it and bob haters will hate it and it will not change the mind of anyone.
Eamz Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:21:00 - [21] Originally by: xHomicide Edited by: xHomicide on 17/02/2007 15:24:40 Just because a game mechanic allows something doesn't mean it is intended. As far as I know the 15 minute agro timer is to prevent pilots from logging off during combat. This was obviously not the case with the D2 titan. The agro timer mechanic was inarguably abused in an unintended way. That sir, is the definition of an exploit. correct.
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:22:00 - [22] Originally by: Eamz Originally by: xHomicide Edited by: xHomicide on 17/02/2007 15:24:40 Just because a game mechanic allows something doesn't mean it is intended. As far as I know the 15 minute agro timer is to prevent pilots from logging off during combat. This was obviously not the case with the D2 titan. The agro timer mechanic was inarguably abused in an unintended way. That sir, is the definition of an exploit. correct. No. The 15 minute aggro timer is to prevent pilot's ships disappearing within 15 minutes of aggression!
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Player One Edited by: Player One on 17/02/2007 15:19:08 you should all realize ... bob are playing their own game. every other player in this game is only a tool for bob. bob doesn't want to "play" with us. sometimes "use" us, yes. but not "play" and bob has only one goal: to win bobs own version of the game. they dont care about the rest of the players. i dont care about playing what version of the game you decide is correct either.. does that make me a bad person? _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:32:00 - [24] Edited by: Powdder on 17/02/2007 17:30:26 Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. This is right in line with ALL the major corp thefts in eve history, so im betting that you would congratulate a corp thief for whipping out a corps assets simply because they can?? the bottom line is that BoB have done NOTHING more admirable than be a large collection of corp thieves. Granted its well within he game mechanics to use a spy to aggro an opponent then kill his ship. But please, is that admirable?? About as admirable as the guy that whipped out that ASCN corp's assets. support BoB and you support theft, and dishonestly. Support D2 and coalition and you support sneaky but honest gamplay. Double standard?? YES, but consider this. @ least with D2 you'll get a stand up fight, with BoB you'll get some underhanded CR@P. The same cr@p that they have been pulling for YEARS. BoB has done NOTHING admirable that hasn't been tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Support the coalition, or stfu. Pow
Edde Bebbi Amarr The Griffin	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Powdder Edited by: Powdder on 17/02/2007 17:30:26 Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. This is right in line with ALL the major corp thefts in eve history, so im betting that you would congratulate a corp thief for whipping out a corps assets simply because they can?? the bottom line is that BoB have done NOTHING more admirable than be a large collection of corp thieves. Granted its well within he game mechanics to use a spy to aggro an opponent then kill his ship. But please, is that admirable?? About as admirable as the guy that whipped out that ASCN corp's assets. support BoB and you support theft, and dishonestly. Support D2 and coalition and you support sneaky but honest gamplay. Double standard?? YES, but consider this. @ least with D2 you'll get a stand up fight, with BoB you'll get some underhanded CR@P. The same cr@p that they have been pulling for YEARS. BoB has done NOTHING admirable that hasn't been tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Support the coalition, or stfu. Pow I doubt anyone will disagree with you. The debate is on whether its an exploit and whether BoB are more 'lame' than their opponents who do very similar/worse things. Noone is claiming killing a logged off titan is more difficult than killing an online one. The sad fact is, every alliance is JUST AS BAD.
Wibiq Cloak and Daggers	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Powdder Edited by: Powdder on 17/02/2007 17:30:26 Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. This is right in line with ALL the major corp thefts in eve history, so im betting that you would congratulate a corp thief for whipping out a corps assets simply because they can?? the bottom line is that BoB have done NOTHING more admirable than be a large collection of corp thieves. Granted its well within he game mechanics to use a spy to aggro an opponent then kill his ship. But please, is that admirable?? About as admirable as the guy that whipped out that ASCN corp's assets. support BoB and you support theft, and dishonestly. Support D2 and coalition and you support sneaky but honest gamplay. Double standard?? YES, but consider this. @ least with D2 you'll get a stand up fight, with BoB you'll get some underhanded CR@P. The same cr@p that they have been pulling for YEARS. BoB has done NOTHING admirable that hasn't been tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Support the coalition, or stfu. Pow Brother, I support the Coalition. I want BoB dead as much as anyone. BUT I think it's a double standard when someone tells a new player that he should just use common sense when he gets scammed and then turns around and screams holy hell when they get scammed. I don't condone corp theft. I don't condone scamming. I also don't condone crying foul just because the shoe is on the other foot.
RaBbLe66 Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:42:00 - [27] Titans die.. How, what, why, is immaterial before this war war is over billions and billions worth of ships, POS's assets will be lost far more than the cost of a titan or two. the folks in this war need to stop flaming, get out and fight, if there is an injustice, petition it then move on and kill the enemy while the process to investigate and resolve the issue goes on. IF and only If a Titan/Mothership is returned due to the kilers exploiting/cheating should it be a matter for 20 odd pages of utter condemnation. so in short guys, Pick your side , arm your ship and get out there and kill the enemy. Snip Not appropriate - email [email protected] with a link to the sig to find out why - hutch
Nicholas Barker Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:43:00 - [28] Originally by: Edde Bebbi Originally by: Eamz Originally by: xHomicide Edited by: xHomicide on 17/02/2007 15:24:40 Just because a game mechanic allows something doesn't mean it is intended. As far as I know the 15 minute agro timer is to prevent pilots from logging off during combat. This was obviously not the case with the D2 titan. The agro timer mechanic was inarguably abused in an unintended way. That sir, is the definition of an exploit. correct. No. The 15 minute aggro timer is to prevent pilot's ships disappearing within 15 minutes of aggression! No, that is what it does (otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it), but it is not what it is intended for. Otherwise eve would be a game about who has longest attention span or most stable connection or lack of a job, and be called eve offline, or A.D.D. online. -------------------------------------
Powdder CL0CKW0RK 0RANGE	Posted - 2007.02.17 17:59:00 - [29] Originally by: Wibiq Originally by: Powdder Edited by: Powdder on 17/02/2007 17:30:26 Originally by: Wibiq I see all kinds of threads like "fix the loopholes in contracts so we can't get scammed any more" and "fix it so we only fight when we want to" and "get rid of this feature or that feature so we can all play easier blah blah blah" and INVARIABLY the vet players spout out stuff like L2P and NOOB etc and say how Eve is supposed to be that way and how those loopholes are in there to weed out the chaff. Well, D2 made a moronic move by trusting the wrong person and guess what: they got caught in one of the biggest "scams" I've heard of. I mean really? Has anyone else lost a Titan yet to a spy? All that aside this was WITHIN GAME MECHANICS, every bit of which is logical and makes sense, even though it's dirty. So if it's ok for noobs to get scammed within game mechanics, it's ok for vets. No I'm not a BoB alt, can't stand them, but I gotta give props where they're due. GG BoB. Best double cross of the year so far. Those of you who can't live with the same thing you usually spout out? Sorry, go play a more carebear game. Eve is, and should be, the most cut throat game out there. This is right in line with ALL the major corp thefts in eve history, so im betting that you would congratulate a corp thief for whipping out a corps assets simply because they can?? the bottom line is that BoB have done NOTHING more admirable than be a large collection of corp thieves. Granted its well within he game mechanics to use a spy to aggro an opponent then kill his ship. But please, is that admirable?? About as admirable as the guy that whipped out that ASCN corp's assets. support BoB and you support theft, and dishonestly. Support D2 and coalition and you support sneaky but honest gamplay. Double standard?? YES, but consider this. @ least with D2 you'll get a stand up fight, with BoB you'll get some underhanded CR@P. The same cr@p that they have been pulling for YEARS. BoB has done NOTHING admirable that hasn't been tainted with fuzzy fecal matter. Support the coalition, or stfu. Pow Brother, I support the Coalition. I want BoB dead as much as anyone. BUT I think it's a double standard when someone tells a new player that he should just use common sense when he gets scammed and then turns around and screams holy hell when they get scammed. I don't condone corp theft. I don't condone scamming. I also don't condone crying foul just because the shoe is on the other foot. What other foot? BoB Is wearing BOTH Bulls... covered glass slippers! ones labeled "Steve" and the other one is labeled "what ever D2's titans name was". Other alliances pull underhanded stuff. BUT no where near the lvl that BoB is pulling it. You can flame away and you can disagree, but you know its true.
Conwright Something Else	Posted - 2007.02.17 18:12:00 - [30] Hint: "The player base" is not one single entity that speaks for every player in the game.

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