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Removing ECM and re-aligning EWAR

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Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 18:57:23 - [1] - Quote Why remove ECM? ECM has three massive downsides: it's binary, it's chance based, and it's uncounterable by piloting. ECM being binary is bad because it is either 100% effective or it is 0% effective. With sensor damps or TDs I can still lock, shoot, etc. at reduced effectiveness. Chance based EWAR is bad because it is unpredictable. No one likes fights coming down to a dice roll. ECM being uncounterable by piloting is bad because if I am jammed there is nothing I can do to become unjammed while most other EWARs i can counter through piloting. If I am lock range sensor damped I can just get closer to my target, if I am pointed I can burn out of point range, etc. By removing ECM we are left with a hole that needs to be filled by a new EWAR. Luck for us there are three big groups of weapon systems: turrets, missiles, and drones. TDs and MGD are all ready in game. So all we need is Drone Tracking Disruptors (DTDs) to be added to the game. They would function by being applied to the ship, and that would mess with the ship's drones, as it is impractical to field a ship with 5 DTDs to disrupt 5 drones. Re-alignment: Each race has core weapon systems,core traits, and an RP foe. For example: Caldari are shield tanked missile/hybrid ships that hate the Gallente. The Gallente on the other hand are armor tanked drone/hybrid ships that hate the Caldari. By playing off these core weapon systems and core traits we can make an RP based EWAR re-alignment that makes sense. End result: http://i.imgur.com/3UyoRmc.png Text version: Amarr: Tracking Disruption Energy Neutralizers Caldari: Drone Disruption Sensor Dampening Gallente: Missile Guidance Disruption Warp Disruptor/Scram Range Minmatar: Target Paining Stasis Webification Range The EWARS: The T1 EWARS are counters to their RP foe. Gallente use drones and Caldari use missiles. Their T1 EWAR counters each other's primary weapon. Amarr have low signature radius and Minmatar use turrets. Their T1 EWAR counters each other. T2 EWARs, which are typically more powerful, are relatively balanced. Sensor Dampening is a fair, balanced, and coutnerable EWAR that can achieve similar effects as ECM without much of the frustration. Thoughts?
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 18:57:32 - [2] - Quote Saved for FAQ
Lugh Crow-Slave 2270	Posted - 2016.04.23 19:07:15 - [3] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Saved for FAQ Reported for redundant Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 19:24:11 - [4] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Aliventi wrote: Saved for FAQ Reported for redundant Also your reasons show a vast lack in understanding ewar First binary is not bad you may think it is but that is opinion Second any ecm pilot worth his salt has great control over the effectiveness of his jams. ECM is the most player interactive ewar in game abs has the most gameplay tied to it Finally with damps you only think you can still lock but when my arazu has you damped down to 3km you're not locking my fleet built to kite Glad to see you showed up Mr. I-Must-Always-Be-Right. I am going to thoroughly enjoy shutting you down with my extensive knowledge of EWAR and Eve's game mechanics. Binary is bad when it comes to EWAR. TDs, SDs, MGDs, Webs, etc. are all not binary. That's what makes them great. Imagine webs instantly stopping your ship. That is a comparable example to what we are dealing with when it comes to ECM. In addition, non-brinary EWAR can be stacking penalized. Which means that you can go ahead and throw all you want on me, just know that each one is less effective than the last. The only EWAR that is binary, aside from ECM, is warp disruption. The only reason that one is okay is because you can't be 64% effective at warping. Either you can warp or you can't. I can lock your kiting fleet. I just need to be within lock range. Go ahead and drop that to 3km. All I need to do is get within 3km. That is something that ECM doesn't provide.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2271	Posted - 2016.04.23 19:30:35 - [5] - Quote Lol "the other ones aren't like this so this one shouldn't be either" The other ewar are are also just boring to use spread and activate or focus and activate there is little to no micro with them And I have listed ways to give ecm a stacking penalty in a way that fits with its gameplay and builds on it in the past. Give ecm mods a remote eccm effect There are only two issues with ECM right now 1 there is no stacking penalty 2 you can permanently jam ships with lower strength Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 19:56:18 - [6] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Lol "the other ones aren't like this so this one shouldn't be either" The other ewar are are also just boring to use spread and activate or focus and activate there is little to no micro with them And I have listed ways to give ecm a stacking penalty in a way that fits with its gameplay and builds on it in the past. Give ecm mods a remote eccm effect There are only two issues with ECM right now 1 there is no stacking penalty 2 you can permanently jam ships with lower strength You see the issue with what you just stated is that it is your opinion. Your opinion is that ECM should be stacking penalized. Your opinion is that there are only two issues with ECM. ECM is unconterable by piloting: Fact. ECM is chance based: Fact. ECM is binary: Fact. ECM is incredibly frustrating: Opinion. You see the difference between that opinion and your opinion is that "ECM is frustrating" is a wildly held opinion, not an opinion by a character who has a grand total of 66 kills since 2012. Your lack of EWAR balancing knowledge is easily displayed by your complete lack of issue with ECM being uncoutnerable by piloting, ECM being binary, and ECM being chance based. ECM is legitimately the ONLY EWAR that is uncounterable by piloting. Very few people enjoy being virtually useless on the battlefield. But don't worry: Lugh Crow-Slave has no issue with that. Also, you have no issue with ECM being a chanced based mechanic? Are you kidding me? RNG has no place in Eve when it comes to EWAR. ECM won't work if it isn't binary. How are you going to apply a "partial" jam to a ship? ECM cannot be saved because it is binary, chance based, and uncounterable by piloting. That is what makes ECM effective. That is what makes ECM useable. That is what makes ECM unfixable.The bottom line is if something can't be fixed then it should be removed. If we remove ECM then we need other types of EWAR for the EWAR ships to be bonus towards. Which brings us right back around to the idea in my opening post.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2272	Posted - 2016.04.23 20:26:29 - [7] - Quote ECM is controllable by the pilot Ecm should be chance based (but is not always) If you are useless just because you are jammed you're not trying hard enough RNG is all over eve look at any turret based damage ECM is frustrating but so are most things in eve Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 20:39:04 - [8] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: ECM is controllable by the pilot Ecm should be chance based (but is not always) If you are useless just because you are jammed you're not trying hard enough RNG is all over eve look at any turret based damage ECM is frustrating but so are most things in eve Okay. Thank you for making it painfully clear that you have no real argument, didn't read what I said, and don't know what you are talking about. 1. I never said anything about ECM being controllable by the pilot. idk what issue you think there is there, but I never made one. 2. ECM can be chance based all it wants. At the end of the day it is one of those 3 key things that can't be fix and are key reasons why ECM should be removed. 3. Lugh Crow-Slave: "If you are jammed you are just not trying hard enough to target the enemy ship!" <-- Oh boy did we find a winner 4. I never said RNG didn't belong in Eve. I said it had no place in EWAR. If you understood the turret damage formula you would understand that mathematically the expected value isn't random. 5. Again, your opinion is showing.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2272	Posted - 2016.04.23 20:51:27 - [9] - Quote Now I'm beginning to wonder if you're a troll did you read what you said o.O The first bullet point you listed in your last post was "ECM is uncontrollable by pilot:fact" There is nothing to fix about it being chance based I said nothing about trying hard enough to lock an enemy ship you can be useful without one Even after the tracking formula you still have RNG and what is wrong with RNG in ewar? Of course an opinion is showing in my argument so is yours I mean your three main points against ecm is entirely based on opinion Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 20:57:59 - [10] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Now I'm beginning to wonder if you're a troll did you read what you said o.O The first bullet point you listed in your last post was "ECM is uncontrollable by pilot:fact" Just to name a few Aliventi wrote: ECM is unconterable by piloting: Fact. Don't worry mate. Reading is hard. I don't hold it against you. Let's get back on topic! Any actual feedback about my idea from people who can read and know what they are talking about?

Lugh Crow-Slave 2272	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:02:37 - [11] - Quote Lol was reading on a phone so I suppose I interpreted a real word in place of your fake one. But still ecm can be countered effectively in sure you have to be able to think of a few ways hell they just buffed one Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:09:15 - [12] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Lol was reading on a phone so I suppose I interpreted a real word in place of your fake one. But still ecm can be countered effectively in sure you have to be able to think of a few ways hell they just buffed one There is a difference between the words "pilot" and "piloting."
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:24:23 - [13] - Quote Not the word I was talking about but okay it can still be effectively countered by proper piloting Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:29:49 - [14] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Not the word I was talking about but okay it can still be effectively countered by proper piloting And how do you think piloting counters ECM? Tell us all.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:35:47 - [15] - Quote Well the simplest one is to pull range but the more effective one is built into the hulls of ecm ships. They ate caldari meaning they have the highest sig and lowest scan res in the game(ecm ships having an even greater penalty to scan res). What this means is you will most likely lock first making damps a very powerful counter to ecm. Another thing built into ecm is for it to be effective you need to use it on some of the softest ships in the game and give up even more tank in order to fit them. This means so long as one person in your fleet is not jammed they are quickly run off feild Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:41:20 - [16] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Well the simplest one is to pull range but the more effective one is built into the hulls of ecm ships. They ate caldari meaning they have the highest sig and lowest scan res in the game(ecm ships having an even greater penalty to scan res). What this means is you will most likely lock first making damps a very powerful counter to ecm. Another thing built into ecm is for it to be effective you need to use it on some of the softest ships in the game and give up even more tank in order to fit them. This means so long as one person in your fleet is not jammed they are quickly run off feild Thank you for making it astoundingly clear you don't understand. "Couterable by piloting", as defined in my first post which you clearly didn't read, is the ability to counter the effects of being jammed through piloting. In other words, once you are jammed what can you do to become unjammed? With target range damps I can burn closer. With webs I can burn out of range. *When jammed there is nothing I can do*. That is the issue. Which given your inexperience in PvP I can see why you wouldn't understand that.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:46:38 - [17] - Quote The last option I gave involved getting a fleet mate in-jammed. But why should there always be a way out of a **** up. How do I get out of a vindi web scram with your definition of piloting or a grappler +scram How do I counter damps against a fleet built to use them properly Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:52:06 - [18] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: The last option I gave involved getting a fleet mate in-jammed. But why should there always be a way out of a **** up. How do I get out of a vindi web scram with your definition of piloting or a grappler +scram How do I counter damps against a fleet built to use them properly You are mistaking probability with possibility. There is a possibility that I can get out of web range of a Vindi, there may not be a big probability that I can. With ECM there is no possibility, and therefore no probability, that I can become unjammed before the 20 seconds elapses.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:53:34 - [19] - Quote There is a guaranty you will if the ecm is damped down or forced off feild Edit or if the pilot was an idiot and warped away or flew out of range The same way you're getting out of a vindi range Citadel worm hole tax
Kieron VonDeux 160	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:55:46 - [20] - Quote ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships.

Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 21:57:19 - [21] - Quote Kieron VonDeux wrote: ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships. So making its main purpose of countering lodi pointless and ensuring that they die within moments of landing on grid? Citadel worm hole tax
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:00:15 - [22] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: There is a guaranty you will if the ecm is damped down or forced off feild Edit or if the pilot was an idiot and warped away or flew out of range The same way you're getting out of a vindi range You still don't understand counterable by piloting. I can get out of web range through actions that I take through piloting. Someone else damping down the ECM ship isn't me countering ECM through piloting. The ECM ship warping away isn't me countering ECM through piloting.
Aliventi Adversity. Psychotic Tendencies. 945	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:01:38 - [23] - Quote Kieron VonDeux wrote: ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING FIXES TO ECM. That is not what this idea has anything to do with. I am merely educating Lugh Crow-Slave on EWAR because he doesn't have much PvP experience.
Kieron VonDeux 160	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:05:12 - [24] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Kieron VonDeux wrote: ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships. So making its main purpose of countering lodi pointless and ensuring that they die within moments of landing on grid? Well, they normally die really fast anyways unless you have your own logi. Breaking target lock on logi even for a few seconds can make a difference when the miss that critical rep or two, and need to re-establish their cap chain more frequently.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:07:23 - [25] - Quote No it is not something you can counter through an Acton of your own but it is something countable by your fleet. Not everything needs to be countable directly by the person the Acton is being done to. And you are not getting out of a vindi web going sub 300 (generous) if he doesn't want you to Citadel worm hole tax
Kieron VonDeux 160	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:08:21 - [26] - Quote Aliventi wrote: Kieron VonDeux wrote: ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING FIXES TO ECM. That is not what this idea has anything to do with. I am merely educating Lugh Crow-Slave on EWAR because he doesn't have much PvP experience. Yeah, I'm simply providing some options to your idea of "re-imagining EWAR" Btw, I don't think you know as much as you think you do, I realize that may fall on deaf ears.
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:10:03 - [27] - Quote Kieron VonDeux wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Kieron VonDeux wrote: ECM should be changed to simply breaking target lock, but you are still allowed to lock again. Of course module and drone cycle times would have to be rebalanced. Note: Make the default cycle times really long but bonus a cycle time reduction on specialty jammer ships. So making its main purpose of countering lodi pointless and ensuring that they die within moments of landing on grid? Well, they normally die really fast anyways unless you have your own logi. Breaking target lock on logi even for a few seconds can make a difference when the miss that critical rep or two, and need to re-establish their cap chain more frequently. Except you don't jam the logi so it can't rep the fleet you jam it so it can't rep the rest of the logi otherwise you're better of with damps. And unless you have high alpha missing one cycle will not kill your sister logi Citadel worm hole tax
violator2k5 Crescent Nova 14	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:14:03 - [28] - Quote Aliventi wrote: I am going to thoroughly enjoy shutting you down with my extensive knowledge of EWAR and Eve's game mechanics. I have two questions for you about your own skills and previous experience with ecm ewar? 1) did you level your sensor compensation skills to lvl 5? 2) have you ever flown a ship with ECCM or had remote ECCM added to you from another pilot in your gang to help deal with being jammed when in combat?
Lugh Crow-Slave 2273	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:15:53 - [29] - Quote violator2k5 wrote: Aliventi wrote: I am going to thoroughly enjoy shutting you down with my extensive knowledge of EWAR and Eve's game mechanics. I have two questions for you about your own skills and previous experience with ecm ewar? 1) did you level your sensor compensation skills to lvl 5? 2) have you ever flown a ship with ECCM or had remote ECCM added to you from another pilot in your gang to help deal with being jammed when in combat? No you see he doesn't care of toy can prevent being jammed he's upset you can't get out of it on your own once jammed Citadel worm hole tax
Kieron VonDeux 160	Posted - 2016.04.23 22:21:15 - [30] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Except you don't jam the logi so it can't rep the fleet you jam it so it can't rep the rest of the logi otherwise you're better of with damps. And unless you have high alpha missing one cycle will not kill your sister logi I was talking about them missing reps on other logi. Breaking locks in a cap chain while they are scan res damped can have a significant effect on their ability to maintain that cap chain. It would increase the coordination needed to disrupt them but it could have significant effects over time. I do realize this probably isn't "the fix", but it is an alternative idea that may lead to better ones.



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