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Ryan Ahashion
Strategic Insanity FUBAR.
0
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Posted - 2016.05.02 02:05:14 -
[1] - Quote
Anyone else show up to watch the battle? Perimeter hit 600 people in local. The armor timer is at like 2300 eve time for anyone who wants to come see round 2. |

Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
165
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Posted - 2016.05.02 02:35:09 -
[2] - Quote
The guardians going suspect accidentally was certainly entertaining for the couple hundred spectators.
Otherwise though it seemed like the attacking composition was easily immune to the citadel itself by a large margin.
Will be very interesting to see going forward, just how refined an attacking doctrine can be made.
It seems that even just two guardians would have been more than enough. |

Khad Soban
Galactic Waste Management
0
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Posted - 2016.05.02 02:47:15 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah I was there flying around those domies bumping them and looting the occasional wreck when all of the sudden my little ship got popped my a smartbombing rokh and then I got podded by said rokh.
Laughed mighty hard at that. 
Cool to see how everyone and their mom showed up looking at that citadel. Loved the live commentary by eve-radio too when something would happen.
Hopefully see some fireworks from it soon too.  |

Tristan Agion
Viziam Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2016.05.02 02:51:13 -
[4] - Quote
Eh? You make it sound like the citadel was in some kind of trouble, Its repair timer ran its course without any interruption, and there was little to no "battle" to be seen. I think I saw a Naglfar blow, or maybe I was hallucinating at the time from sensory deprivation. It was like a few hundred people standing around a patch of paint, asking "Is it dry yet?" |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3235
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Posted - 2016.05.02 03:09:16 -
[5] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:The guardians going suspect accidentally was certainly entertaining for the couple hundred spectators.
Otherwise though it seemed like the attacking composition was easily immune to the citadel itself by a large margin.
Will be very interesting to see going forward, just how refined an attacking doctrine can be made.
It seems that even just two guardians would have been more than enough. Highsec citadels defences are a joke. It's really only the defending fleet that matters in highsec, not the citadel itself. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
15325
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Posted - 2016.05.02 03:20:14 -
[6] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Shalashaska Adam wrote:The guardians going suspect accidentally was certainly entertaining for the couple hundred spectators.
Otherwise though it seemed like the attacking composition was easily immune to the citadel itself by a large margin.
Will be very interesting to see going forward, just how refined an attacking doctrine can be made.
It seems that even just two guardians would have been more than enough. Highsec citadels defences are a joke. It's really only the defending fleet that matters in highsec, not the citadel itself. and thank bob for that
Better the Devil you know.
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Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.05.02 04:07:11 -
[7] - Quote
I didnt see the fight, did the defending station have weapons or did it get taken down too fast for subcap launchers, rigs, and whatnot |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3236
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Posted - 2016.05.02 04:18:04 -
[8] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: and thank bob for that
Yes, thank bob that blob superiority is maintained, and that small defending corps have no chance in owning a citadel, only the mega corps. No wait.... That's actually utterly terrible. A Citadel is meant to be a space fortress and act as a significant force multiplier allowing the defender to fight outnumbered. The joke result of citadel high sec defences means that it's badly missed it's aim in an entire sector of space. |

Shalashaska Adam
Partial Safety
165
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Posted - 2016.05.02 04:54:22 -
[9] - Quote
The problem in highsec, is simply that the sort of stats you would need to give a citadel to allow it to survive in the hands of a small indy corp, against the indiscriminate war of the major merc alliances, would be entirely over the top.
To allow it to stand a chance in that scenario, you would in turn make it basically invincible in a fight between equally sized opponents, though I suppose many would argue that the latter scenario basically never happens these days.
Its going to be very interesting in the next few weeks as the tactics around citadel fitting and citadel attacking fleet doctrine are worked on and perfected. The problem is simply that the opposing forces can be enormously different in size and strength, because high sec war has nothing to do with local competitors of similar sizes doing battle with one another.
You can't really balance them for high sec war decs without making them ridiculously powerful in low/null/wh. Starbases had the ability to be dismantled before a war began, this is no longer the case now, so you ether need numbers or diplomacy on your side. An attacking fleet is not created to personally destroy one citadel, it can go round dozens a day. |

Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
244
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Posted - 2016.05.02 04:59:09 -
[10] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: and thank bob for that
Yes, thank bob that blob superiority is maintained, and that small defending corps have no chance in owning a citadel, only the mega corps. No wait.... That's actually utterly terrible. A Citadel is meant to be a space fortress and act as a significant force multiplier allowing the defender to fight outnumbered. The joke result of citadel high sec defences means that it's badly missed it's aim in an entire sector of space.
When we see the first Fortizar go down then we will know.
Thanks to whoever anchored this in Perimeter, you certainly have created alot of content for many players! |
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4174
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Posted - 2016.05.02 05:04:34 -
[11] - Quote
Pearl Necklace Badasaz wrote:I didnt see the fight, did the defending station have weapons or did it get taken down too fast for subcap launchers, rigs, and whatnot They just tanked it.
The defenders didn't put out a fleet of any kind and a medium citadel doesn't have that much firepower. Vendetta lost some stuff initially because their logistics chain went suspect because of reasons however they fixed that problem, came back and reinforced it unopposed by anything except the station.
As it turns out that putting up a citadel if you have no capacity to defend it is not actually a good idea. |

Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2016.05.02 05:20:44 -
[12] - Quote
Will be interesting then when we get market citadels going up... they will get attacked nonstop |

Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1692
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:17:35 -
[13] - Quote
Pretty sure this will end well.
er... not. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4174
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:24:19 -
[14] - Quote
Large citadels will probably be an entirely different affair. |

Indahmawar Fazmarai
5154
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Posted - 2016.05.02 06:56:07 -
[15] - Quote
Pearl Necklace Badasaz wrote:Will be interesting then when we get market citadels going up... they will get attacked nonstop
I can't foresee anything going wrong with that. Freighter pilots love flying into warzones for 1% extra profit after taxes. Don't trust those silly historians claiming that market hubs depend on being easily accessible, secure, well stocked, well populated and either be competitive in price or hold a monoply. It only takes, seriously, 1% less taxes and an affordable 10% recovery fee in the event that the marketplace storing your wares goes boom.
Yeah. |

Krevnos
Back Door Burglars The Otherworld
152
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Posted - 2016.05.02 09:00:05 -
[16] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: and thank bob for that
Yes, thank bob that blob superiority is maintained, and that small defending corps have no chance in owning a citadel, only the mega corps. No wait.... That's actually utterly terrible. A Citadel is meant to be a space fortress and act as a significant force multiplier allowing the defender to fight outnumbered. The joke result of citadel high sec defences means that it's badly missed it's aim in an entire sector of space. When we see the first Fortizar go down then we will know. Thanks to whoever anchored this in Perimeter, you certainly have created alot of content for many players! 
Defences for the Fortizar and Keepstar are essentially identical to Astrahaus in high sec. We reported it in the feedback thread prior to release, but it seems pushing a half baked feature was priority.
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Sequester Risalo
Semiki Minerals and Missiles Company Ltd.
195
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Posted - 2016.05.02 09:28:56 -
[17] - Quote
Krevnos wrote:Defences for the Fortizar and Keepstar are essentially identical to Astrahaus in high sec. We reported it in the feedback thread prior to release, but it seems pushing a half baked feature was priority.
I think this is not really a problem of citadels but it has a lot to do with the expectations of the owners that they will just have to set up a giant loot pinata and become space rich. Also it might have to do with this one being one of the first. Everybody who understands a bit about Eve and its players should know that deploying a citadel in perimeter would equal painting "shoot me" in giant letters on its back.
It was clear from the beginning that - other than a POS - a citadel would not be viable for single players or small corps. |

Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2452
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Posted - 2016.05.02 09:54:19 -
[18] - Quote
Sequester Risalo wrote:It was clear from the beginning that - other than a POS - a citadel would not be viable for single players or small corps. Perhaps owning a citadel, but using a citadel is open to every player.
If you cannot defend your structures, you shouldn't deploy one and just pay to use one which is owned and maintained by someone else exactly like POCOs are today. This design is nothing new and part of putting more of the universe in the hands of the players.
Not every player needs to own a space station. If you don't want to bother with defending one, pay someone else and just use theirs.
But really, I am not sure this battle should be taken as typical. There are some nasty features on citadels that will allow a defensive fleet to get the drop on an attacker (and no defensive fleet showed up). Further, there isn't much of a loot reason to bash one, especially given that the attacking fleet is committed and at risk for at least a minute (does it make sense to risk hundreds of millions in ships for a few hundred million ISK in minerals and salvage?). It will take some time before we see how New Eden adapts to these structures and we see how vulnerable/invulnerable they are. Larges will be significantly tougher, and XLs will be impossible to kill so there is also that to consider.
All this says is that an unsupported or unmanned medium Citadel is not much of a concern for a small fleet which we already knew was the case.
Why Do They Gank?
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Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:11:15 -
[19] - Quote
Ofc the guy was doomed in perimeter... but that is not the point... ccp is pushing us to citadels, cheaper market for now, later probably better industry or refining etc... Now im not saying they will be manditory but they will offer advantages.
So if these advantages are on a structure that blows up if you sneeze at it how does ccp expect medium corps or even alliances to utilize them? Yes, i understand you should have your own fleet able to defend during vulnerable time windows, however the sad fact is the medum and small groups can not bring the numbers that some merc corps can.
I think that taking this into consideration there is some sort of expectation that citadels should offer some sort of force multiplier that forces a larger corp to stop and consider if taking on that citadel is really worth the effort. I am by no means saying it should be so strong it's impossible but it should in no way be a force multipier that is equivilent of a tickle.
Take POS's for example, setting aside the various issues with them, they do at least force a war deccing corp to work at it... if for no other reason then the annoying ecm and shield hardeners. If set up correctly they at least offer decent defenses for the cost of that POS.
Now take the costs of citadels.... I would hope that the defense systems would at least be that of a MUCH cheaper POS, I personally feel the defense systems should be a considerable step up from that of a deathstar, or d*ckstar.
Anyway thats my 2 cents, I wont be donating ant citadels to a corp anytime soon, at least till i know that there is a reasonable chance of it staying alive long enough to serve its function.
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
1433
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:13:33 -
[20] - Quote
Black Pedro wrote:Sequester Risalo wrote:It was clear from the beginning that - other than a POS - a citadel would not be viable for single players or small corps. Perhaps owning a citadel, but using a citadel is open to every player. If you cannot defend your structures, you shouldn't deploy one and just pay to use one which is owned and maintained by someone else exactly like POCOs are today. This design is nothing new and part of putting more of the universe in the hands of the players. Not every player needs to own a space station. If you don't want to bother with defending one, pay someone else and just use theirs. But really, I am not sure this battle should be taken as typical. There are some nasty features on citadels that will allow a defensive fleet to get the drop on an attacker (and no defensive fleet showed up). Further, there isn't much of a loot reason to bash one, especially given that the attacking fleet is committed and at risk for at least a minute (does it make sense to risk hundreds of millions in ships for a few hundred million ISK in minerals and salvage?). It will take some time before we see how New Eden adapts to these structures and we see how vulnerable/invulnerable they are. Larges will be significantly tougher, and XLs will be impossible to kill so there is also that to consider. All this says is that an unsupported or unmanned medium Citadel is not much of a concern for a small fleet which we already knew was the case.
They had some ships in space which died, three Navy Domi's.
Ella's Snack bar. The Hisec sandbox is basically no longer a themepark for gankers now that CCP have rebalanced key areas. Well done CCP
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TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
1488
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:15:41 -
[21] - Quote
I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works.
My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!
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Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1692
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:19:36 -
[22] - Quote
Maybe that is ccp's plan. :/ |

Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2452
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:24:55 -
[23] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works. What changes to wardecs do you think CCP should make to fix this perceived "incompatibility"? How should one go about shooting a structure in highsec?
POCOs were implemented with the exact same rules regarding vulnerability to wardecs and transferability while under a war declaration. I still see POCOs on essentially every planet in highsec and while they do change hands, it is rare to see one actually reinforced. Why do you think this new batch of structures would be any different?
Why Do They Gank?
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Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.05.02 10:31:33 -
[24] - Quote
Because of the pricetag POCOs while not cheap, are not even in the same league as Citadels.
Poco killmail...meh 5 or 10bill citadel.... that will be wanted, and thats the cheaper end of the spectrum |

Black Pedro
Yammerschooner
2452
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:11:45 -
[25] - Quote
Pearl Necklace Badasaz wrote:Because of the pricetag POCOs while not cheap, are not even in the same league as Citadels.
Poco killmail...meh 5 or 10bill citadel.... that will be wanted, and thats the cheaper end of the spectrum :) I love the irrationality of that argument. It reveals the lack of understanding of the motivations of aggressor players by the writer, not to mention their fear of killmails and loss in general.
First, medium citadels will eventually come in at under a billion, less than a whole system of POCOs. More importantly POCOs actually provide access to a limited resource (planets) and thus there is a real reason to fight over them, while Citadels offer nothing but a useless killmail, and a small amount of materials. Players will attack citadels only for the fights, or for extortion/for hire as there isn't much direct reason to do so and a killmail doesn't pay the bills.
Once there is a medium citadel in every other system, and prices have come down to the expected level, most citadels will be safe most of the time like POCOs. The few that get attacked will generate some fights and may or may not explode. Even if they do, the medium will cost less than most mission runner's marauders or hauler's freighters, and a loss should not cripple any but the smallest and poorest group and those players should not be risking what they cannot afford to lose and just base out of a friendly or public citadel.
Perhaps also mercenaries will get a much needed boost in the form of contracts for citadel defence.
Larges and XLs are much harder to tackle. The larges will only be attackable by the largest of the groups in highsec, and the XLs only by the largest groups in the game and require a significant fleet so they will not be attacked on a whim for fights (beyond the first one or two deployed) or for killmails. Those should definitely only be deployed by groups large enough to defend them, but thankfully, aside from the market hub, there is no reason to deploy them in highsec at all.
Remember, you are 'Building Your Dream' so that someone else can 'Wreck Your Dream'. Bring on the Wrecking Machine!
Why Do They Gank?
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4176
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:18:10 -
[26] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:They had some ships in space which died, three Navy Domi's.
EDIT: The defences look chickenshit to me which is rather sad, what's wrong in having a challenge in this game, must everything be easy? inaccurate, they lost 2 navy domies in transit much earlier while the citadel was still invulnerable, I have no idea what the hell that third one was doing. The defenses are absolutely non-trivial, throwing random junk at it isn't going to work out well for you, but it's no a substitute or an actual organized defense. |

gnshadowninja
Back Passage Explorer's Vendetta Mercenary Group
252
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:26:22 -
[27] - Quote
TigerXtrm wrote:I really hope CCP is going to change wardec mechanics before the rollout of all structures is complete, because at this rate not many high sec structures will ever exist. Current war dec mechanics were already broken before this, but they are highly incompatible with the way structure vulnerability works.
Most stupid comment of 2016 award given.
War dec mechanics are only broken for us mercs who cannot hunt targets who keep jumping corp/alliancr. |

Pearl Necklace Badasaz
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:31:19 -
[28] - Quote
Thank you for your wisdom oh exalted one.
I was by the way referring to all citadels, and if you for 1 second think people wont want a large or xl on their killmail, i guess they dont want capitals or titan killmails either do they?
From what i am reading l and xl hit for about the same as a wet noodle.... do i know that? No but i was reading stuff from the test server, IF they are correct then they will be killed for the killmail, as well as the lulz
Also if a corp takes the time and sets up a decent market center, and the L is a easy target like i am hearing then they will also be destroyed just for the tears.... if you think differently then what game have you been playing?
Now as for the mediums, if prices drop as you say then yes you most likely are correct.
If what ive been hearing is false and the L and XL do pack a punch worthy of their pricetag then again you are probably correct.
But as a whole ive heard more ppl say that all citadels are weak then i hear they are gonna be strong...so we will have to wait and see, personally i hope your right but we have no way of really knowing outside of what ppl are saying from test server and speculation.
Now that ive explained my point you can go back to explaining why im afraid of killmails and how irrational I am.. |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3238
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:35:18 -
[29] - Quote
Shalashaska Adam wrote:The problem in highsec, is simply that the sort of stats you would need to give a citadel to allow it to survive in the hands of a small indy corp, against the indiscriminate war of the major merc alliances, would be entirely over the top.. Entirely untrue that you couldn't give them reasonable stats. As an 'Imagine' exercise. Imagine if you could fit missile 'batteries'. These batteries aren't super deadly against one target but enough to stress even a tough local tank T3 (Combining sig & active), make marauders work, but logi can keep up, but the batteries can engage up to 5 or 10 different targets. Suddenly you have a situation where Logi are going to be sweating because of the sheer number of targets who can be engaged, and mistakes by logi all putting reps on one target while not repping a second target will cause losses. Do the same with the Ewar mids, and again, we now have a strong force multiplier that can't simply be used to totally trash a single target, but is about disrupting multiple targets at once.
Will it be enough if you have no defending fleet against a major merc alliance? Almost certainly not. But will it be enough to significantly increase the effects of a then small co-ordinated defending fleet to stand against superior (But not overwhelming) numbers. Probably yes.
Instead what we got is an anaemic single target set up with 2 launchers, 2 neuts & 3 ewar mids max. And only enough cap to run the neuts and ewar mids for 10 minutes assuming no-one neuts the citadel at all. As a replacement for L POS death-stars & ****-stars which had far more firepower & ewar capability. Remember M Citadel = L POS. L Citadel = Outpost, in terms of what size group should be needed to operate one. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
4176
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Posted - 2016.05.02 11:35:29 -
[30] - Quote
Also broken in regard to citadels in that the anchoring timer is the same length as the timer for wars becoming active, making it basically impossible for anyone to attack a citadel when it enters its first vulnerability window when it finishes anchoring.
The obvious solution would be to either increase the anchoring timer or reduce the timer for wars becoming live. Obviously carebears would totally lose their **** at the idea of either of those things, because like usual they don't really care about balance or actual gameplay considerations, they just want things. |
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