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What's Happened To The Eve So Many Of Us Remember?

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Wrayeth The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.02.22 18:43:00 - [31] Edited by: Wrayeth on 22/02/2007 18:47:10 Edited by: Wrayeth on 22/02/2007 18:44:23 I agree that the game is longer as fun as it once was. I would say this is due to a change in the thinking of the majority of the PvP players: namely, the "win at all costs" mentality. In the past, it seemed to me that the majority of the PvPers derived their pleasure from the process of the fight, and this resulted in the willingness to engage without superior numbers or a massive advantage of another sort. Now, however, people derive their enjoyment from winning, no matter what they have to do to achieve it. This, unfortunately, has resulted in the EVE we have today. Who (or what) is to blame? I don't know for certain, but I'd place a large chunk of the responsibility for the current state of the game on the POS warfare system. Prior to the introduction of POS and sovereignty for control of stations and outposts, it was possible to take a station with a single operation, which meant that if you lost control of a station you could always get it back if you could field a fleet sufficient to the task. Now, that is no longer the case - to take a station system requires a massive undertaking with a large capital force sieging the POS in the system for days on end, all the while supported by a massive fleet of conventional forces. With such a large investment of time and effort required to retake lost territory, the 0.0 entities have become less gung-ho about their territory and more willing to use any possible tactic to prevent its loss. As people started using login traps, ganks, and general ugliness more and more in alliance warfare, the mindset gradually grew to encompass all PvP, anywhere. With the exception of a few corporations, most now conform to the current style of warfare, which sacrifices the element of fun on the altar of expediency, all in the name of winning at all costs. That's my take on the matter, right or wrong. EDIT: I also agree that the change in the size of the playerbase has had a large effect on the state of the game, as well. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.02.22 18:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Galk Edited by: Galk on 22/02/2007 18:34:37 Originally by: Humpalot Send a loud and clear message that players are expected to play within the spirit of the game. CCP would 'never' issue such a definite statement that held any meaning what so ever. They wouldn't care to alienate any section of a playerbase for a starters, it normaly spells doom, or the start of it. Why? Look, I am not saying they should go all Salem Witch Trial on the playerbase. But I would think such things as logoffski and logonski(?) would be easily discernable. Sure someone might accidentally log on in the middle of a fleet here and there but log on in the middle of another fleet with 100 of your friends at the same time? And done so on a re-occurring basis? I don't think so... Quote: And from a point of view, it's practically imposable to do so anyway without being totaly hypocritical, given they promote metagaming in the form of gtc/isk sales and multiple character accounts. GTC/ISK and multiple accounts are not in the same league as logoffski.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.02.22 18:49:00 - [33] Edited by: welsh wizard on 22/02/2007 18:47:59 There is undoubtedly serious problems with the game like logging, macro miners etc etc its important to sift through the whines and work towards fixing the important problems as Jim McGregor said earlier. To be honest with you Verone I used to think this about Counter-Strike having played it solid for 5-6 years. "Why do they make the game worse with every patch!? It was faaar better back in the day!" Took me a while to establish that in fact it wasn't, it was simpily me getting bored of it. I've seen this before in many gamers including myself, there isn't always a scapegoat. It's sad to see communities deteriorate but its just the way it is. I'm not saying this is the answer to your gripe but I would imagine its a part of it.
Janelle Reavyr Reign Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.22 18:55:00 - [34] I wholeheartedly agree with the OP, Eve is no longer the game I became addicted to 1.5 years ago. I log on to change skills and chat with my corp mates, and keep our small corp/alliance full of newer players going - but I certainly am not enjoying it as much as I did. I miss the days of honor (even amongst thieves) that was Eve 6 months ago. It is just degrading into a game of cheap shots and tricks. Perhaps this is the beginning of the Dark Age of New Eden...but will it ever get better, or just steadily worse? $45 a month for my wife and I to play a game just to talk to close friends is almost not worth it anymore. Oh well and as they say, "You'll Have That."
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2007.02.22 18:56:00 - [35] Good stuff Verone. --- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Elmo Pug ([email protected]) http://jamesbanks.org/wylkersig.jpg Letter to the Devs
Verone Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:10:00 - [36] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 22/02/2007 18:47:59 There is undoubtedly serious problems with the game like logging, macro miners etc etc its important to sift through the whines and work towards fixing the important problems as Jim McGregor said earlier. To be honest with you Verone I used to think this about Counter-Strike having played it solid for 5-6 years. "Why do they make the game worse with every patch!? It was faaar better back in the day!" Took me a while to establish that in fact it wasn't, it was simpily me getting bored of it. I've seen this before in many gamers including myself, there isn't always a scapegoat. It's sad to see communities deteriorate but its just the way it is. I'm not saying this is the answer to your gripe but I would imagine its a part of it. Oh, I'm far from bored with Eve, I'm just concerned about the blatent abuse of game machanics that happens constantly, and the fact that a complete blind eye is being turned to it. NEWEST MOVIE : VETO FOR HIRE
VunnaX Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:11:00 - [37] Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun". singed
Derran Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:19:00 - [38] I actually agree with Verone here. Speaking as someone who has been around since the beginning of Eve retail, alot has changed since I started. While my area doesn't face the type of tactics he has been facing, a person would have to have their head buried in the sand to not know it happens. The convospam thing is petitionable however. The logoff thing is more tricky as some of them can be legitimate and some are obviously not. I think the whole issue does in a way feed back in itself. While we are all naturally competitive and some want to win at any cost, there can be more to it than that. We want to win because we don't want to lose. That sounds obviously stupid but consider what happens when you lose. Your ship and all its modules are gone. If it is a T2 ship, the insurance doesn't come even close to covering what is being charged for these things and T2 mods have skyrocketed in price so losing a T1 ship equipped with T2 mods can be awful. It only makes you not want to lose that ship all the more. Alot of things end up coming back to feed on themselves like that. Blobs get used because they are the quickest and most successful way to victory. I for one wish CCP would introduce their feature/content fixes at a more regular pace rather than waiting several months while the issue goes unaddressed to fix many issues all at once with one big patch. For instance, why can't the the proposed changes to bombers happen sooner rather than in the next big patch? They plan on having them addressing the blob issue. There are lots of little things that could be addressed quickly rather than waiting for it to happen all at once and possibly breaking something else in the process as has been known to happen which can then again go unaddressed for several months.
Easy Target Minmatar Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:20:00 - [39] You have always had those sorts of people in eve, the more you get the more you cant repel their game play style and the more likely you are to get caught by the particular tactic. As a game gets a larger player base, it gets less friendly in general. Read the new player forums, the friendlyness is still alive, just drowned out in other forums, i tend not to read them, iut is easier and safer. :) DISCLAIMER Observation, not directed at anyone or any corp, or any alliance or anyones dog, cat, godfish or even hampster ----------------------------------------------- No i'm not good... but i have never claimed to be --------------------
Nye Jaran	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Arcticblue2 Well vote with what you got... I know I did... and to those who flamed my previous post do lock, this is the answer. "Subscription Status: Active Cancellation Pending Expires: 02.March.2007 Total Charges Made: 26" See... 2nd of march you no longer will see me in the game, I have voted with my wallet, I wish there where more. I would and will come back once I see my vote is heard. I did that, and then I realized something. Eve is not just about the game. It's about the people you interact with, too. On what was supposed to be my last day in Eve, I realized that the game was still fun, not because of what the game is (both good and bad), but because of the people whom I interact with, especially my corpmates.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:40:00 - [41] and yeah, this happens to ALL games that get popular.. and worst if game endorses/allows greifing of others..(UO:R, anyone remember?...) in the case that allows griefing/non-consentual pvp.. you get all the Counterstrike kiddies that just want to fill their killboard and make their insignifercant epeen grow... then it becomes doing anything to just try to "win" Eve... quite frankly, the bears (Miners, Industrialist, ppl who just live in empire high sec, who dont care what other ppl do so long as they left alone..) are the ones who havnt changed much... but the pvper portion.. well, just look at the killboards (and forums associated with them..)... enough said.. ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
R3dSh1ft Caldari FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:44:00 - [42] the sad truth of the game's evolution as posted by a respected member of the community. something must be done! ______________________________________
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.02.22 19:52:00 - [43] Originally by: R3dSh1ft the sad truth of the game's evolution as posted by a respected member of the community. something must be done! When a vet speaks up about something, devs better listen. SOE didnt, and look what happened to SWG... I dont want that to happen to my EVE. *
Allantia FW Inc Kith of Venal	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:33:00 - [44] Originally by: Verone It's disheartening, watching Eve degenorate into a game where people need to run borderline exploit tactics to even score a kill, and one begs to ask the question, where has the Eve gone that so many of us remember from long ago, the Eve that we enjoyed and felt a part of before all this crap started to be used to score kills? I think it's the (almost) inevitable conclusion to EVE, simply because of the way that the game is designed. EVE nutures and supports the griefer/playground-bully type of character, and as such is the natural MMO haven for these types of players. It's just been a matter of time until they migrated to EVE in enough numbers, and as these are the people who tend to be more of the "must win", "win at all costs" and "do whatever you can get away with to win" mindsets, well, you can see for yourself what they're doing to the game.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun". Oh yeah, like people didnt play to win before Do you belive your own crazy ramblings?
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 20:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Originally by: R3dSh1ft the sad truth of the game's evolution as posted by a respected member of the community. something must be done! When a vet speaks up about something, devs better listen. SOE didnt, and look what happened to SWG... I dont want that to happen to my EVE. lol then leave.
Agillious Gallente Inner Circle Helter-Skelter	Posted - 2007.02.22 21:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun". Oh yeah, like people didnt play to win before Do you belive your own crazy ramblings? Here's what upsets me about the current climate in Eve. The automatic dismissal of an opposing viewpoint based on the premise that it differs from what one person believes, ergo the juvenile one-liner send-off. Yes, people did play Eve "to win" before. People still play to win now. Yet people have a problem with it now... why? That's partially what Verone is going after. Yet, you sink to ridiculing his thoughts, and then demeaning people that agree with the original poster. It comes across as someone who cannot be bothered to look past their own life to see if an opposing viewpoint has any merit. High Verone, "Death Kill" here is espousing a differing opinon. Mister "Death Kill" seems to believe that Eve is fine the way it is. MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
Agillious Gallente Inner Circle Helter-Skelter	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:05:00 - [48] Wyareth touched on it above, but I'd like to toss something else out here. POS warfare, Sovereignty, Blob warfare, unethical mechanics, mechanic abuse and exploitation... All of these concepts spring to mind when discussing Alliance warfare. I bring this up because, Verone and other vets, I wonder if being able to hold Sovreignty isn't itself one of the roots of the issues today. I don't see anyway for CCP to back out of sovreignty, but I wonder if it doesn't deserve a hefty re-think. This springs from the thought that since there is something in 0.0 space that is now pemanent, or worth holding, then it is also doing whatever is necessary to hold that. There seems to be a huge Keyser Soze complex among alliances. Each thinks that in order to survive they must be more ruthless than the other alliance. Annnnnnd, that seems to be the state of things. So, to Verone and the other veterans (I've only been playing since late 2005 and I still think I'm a n00b at most things), what can be done? I don't know if everything rests at CCP's feet. CCP doesn't control the mindset of the players. I think the players need to change their habits, and I think CCP needs to take away the temptation to Keyser Soze everything. MORE SHINY, PLEASE!!!
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Copenhagen Verone I totally agree with you. This certainly isnt the game that it used to be. Dont get me wrong I love this game. But there is no honor anymore. People are so afraid of losing a fake ship/item/whatever that they are willing to do things that they would never do in real life, or at least I hope they wouldnt. The 3 worst aspects of EVE as I see it are: 1 - POS Warfare - I wish they never existed. They truly take the fun out of this GAME. They have been bugged to some extent since the day they came into EVE. The folks that manage them dont like it, the people defending them dont like it, and the people having to shoot them dont like it. 2 - T2 Lottery - the rich get richer and us poor shmucks have to bend over and take it. Put every BPO in the game on the NPC market. Make them super expensive if you want. This will allow even the smallest corps something to work for. 3 - GM Inconsistency - hey they are human also, but OMG its like talking to Dell tech support. They either respond from a script or use a WIJI board to come up with a answer. Make a set of rules and follow them for everybody everytime!! CCP really needs to get a handle on things now. Its starting to spiral out of control. They will end up losing a lot of us old timers. We will be replaced with people that wont stick around for years and years like we did. LOL and AMEN. You hit all three of these on the head. I'm not sure about the wiji board tho, i think they use a Magic 8-Ball. :-)
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:06:00 - [50] IMHO a lot of things have changed to the worse among the playerbase. People they do anything from avoiding losses. Some keeps in Empire. Some do logouts. Some do spamming. Why? Do avoid ship losses. This game is all about giving losses a a consequense, but the fact is most dont handle it too well. So they will do whatever they can do avoid it. When some do it, others follow. Its evolution on its worst. People complain about empire sitters. Get out to low sec now! Theres where the fun is! But when it comes to the fact, the same people will use other means to avoid ship losses. Logging is pretty common. The problem is, its not CCPs fault, but the player base. What we the playerbase do is using the sandbox to the max extendt. Even if the rest dont like it. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:07:00 - [51] Originally by: Agillious Here's what upsets me about the current climate in Eve. The automatic dismissal of an opposing viewpoint based on the premise that it differs from what one person believes, ergo the juvenile one-liner send-off. Yes, people did play Eve "to win" before. People still play to win now. Yet people have a problem with it now... why? That's partially what Verone is going after. Yet, you sink to ridiculing his thoughts, and then demeaning people that agree with the original poster. It comes across as someone who cannot be bothered to look past their own life to see if an opposing viewpoint has any merit. High Verone, "Death Kill" here is espousing a differing opinon. Mister "Death Kill" seems to believe that Eve is fine the way it is. Cry me a river Gallente. If you think EVE is more 'people play to win' now than 3 years ago then you are wrong.
Jarjar Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:11:00 - [52] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Agillious Here's what upsets me about the current climate in Eve. The automatic dismissal of an opposing viewpoint based on the premise that it differs from what one person believes, ergo the juvenile one-liner send-off. Yes, people did play Eve "to win" before. People still play to win now. Yet people have a problem with it now... why? That's partially what Verone is going after. Yet, you sink to ridiculing his thoughts, and then demeaning people that agree with the original poster. It comes across as someone who cannot be bothered to look past their own life to see if an opposing viewpoint has any merit. High Verone, "Death Kill" here is espousing a differing opinon. Mister "Death Kill" seems to believe that Eve is fine the way it is. Cry me a river Gallente. If you think EVE is more 'people play to win' now than 3 years ago then you are wrong. Can you name five alliances who fought over sovereignity for their capital ship yards 3 years ago? I think not. Great post, Verone. "In Communist China ISK buys YOU!!" - random bio
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:12:00 - [53] You got it wrong there humpa. I wasn't bagging you chap, it's just that ccp don't exactly have a track record of underlining things anymore. I don't like it, but my explanation tells you why (i think) Tbh i didn't realise you were on mainly about log off's. Thats not realy ccp's fault imho, you guys do it, no offence, but you need to look at yourselfs, much like the rest of it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but ccp can't chain people into the game, it's one thing you have to control yourselfs.. But ofc i agree with your point in principle, even though i don't see a reality of it coming to eve. ______
Jeretomi Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:14:00 - [54] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Le Pecarosh More and more people are playing to "win EVE", instead of "having fun". Oh yeah, like people didnt play to win before Do you belive your own crazy ramblings? How ironic, a prime example of the sort of immature attitude that is becoming more and more pervasive in this game I wasn't there at the beginning, but I've been around long enough to have seen many changes affect the game. I was attracted to EVE in the first place because it appeared to attract the more "mature" player. I'm not just talking mature in terms of age here, although that does play a part I'm sure, but mature in terms of attitude as well. With an ever increasing player base the demographics of a game are bound to change....I would be interested to see how the age demographics of the game have changed over the past few years. And please, before all you young things jump down my throat, I'm not saying that all young players have an attitude problem, but the way a thirty-something player approaches the game is bound to be different, in most cases, to the way a teenager would play. Now, the "young player" market is obviously a whole lot larger than the thirty-something market, and whether CCP has made a conscious effort to target a younger audience I don't know, but it seems possible. This isn't the whole story obviously, but I guess the bottom line as far as CCP is concerned is $, and if making a game with more brawn than brain keeps the money coming in then sadly the changes we are seeing will continue.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:18:00 - [55] Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:16:50 Originally by: Jarjar Can you name five alliances who fought over sovereignity for their capital ship yards 3 years ago? I think not. Oh you mean people started to 'play to win' after cap ships were seeded? Cap ships just reinforced something that was allready there. Or do you mean 'people didnt act like utter c()nts before'? See history of original Curse alliance.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Jeretomi How ironic, a prime example of the sort of immature attitude that is becoming more and more pervasive in this game Thank god we have you to put things straight eh?
Jeretomi Azure Horizon Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Death Kill Thank god we have you to put things straight eh? And what exactly have you contributed to this conversation but snide comments?
Angellyne	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Jeretomi How ironic, a prime example of the sort of immature attitude that is becoming more and more pervasive in this game Thank god we have you to put things straight eh? Religion aside, the answer is yes. Eve benefits from every remaining player who rolls his eyes at guys like you. Verone makes some excellent points, and you're here spewing about people 'playing to win' 3 years ago. Fine, people have always played games to win. Excellent point, and goodbye.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:29:00 - [59] Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:45 Edited by: Death Kill on 22/02/2007 22:26:19 Originally by: Jeretomi And what exactly have you contributed to this conversation but snide comments? The fact that things werent better before. You and the OP reminds me of those old dudes on the balcony of the Muppet show.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.02.22 22:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Angellyne Excellent point, and goodbye. Damn! I just lost at the internet

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