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Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 11:54:00 - [1] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/02/2007 11:54:20 Caldari are fantastic. Seriously, if you dont think they are that great, go fly something else for a bit. They have 1) Best PvE ability in the game, bar none 2) Longest range ships of every class in the game. 3) Tracking independant weapon specialization 4) Strongest EW type in the game. 5) A huge amount of versitility 6) Best mid-range small gang damage 7) Best mid range small gang tanks. The Moa and the Ferox can both be used as long range frigate gankers[keeps tacklers off battleships] or medium range DPS support with EW secondary. Ferox can support a gang bonus with this as well. Both, in these roles can deal significant damage while sporting a positivly fantastic tank[there are some imbalances between the brutix, but pretty much none at the cruiser level]. The Griffin, Blackbird, and Scorpion are all easily accessable and very strong ECM platforms of varying expense. Each is able to provide indispensible support to a gang from ranges that just about no one can reach outside of fleet combat[and a rigged scorpion will outrange all battleships but the rokh]. The Falcon and Rook are strongly tanked ECM platforms, the Rook being the absolute most devastating ship in small, medium, or even larger gang combat[that doesnt exceed fleet size] one can think of. It is able to enter the battle cloaked at its optimal and only uncloack if the situation looks right to lay on some jams. After it incapacitates its enemy it can just dissapear back into the void ready for another engagement. The Eagle and Vulture are the single most dominant long range anti-support snipers in the game. They are like the Moa and Ferox, but on a healty concoction of speed and a drug name that is censored for some strange reason but infested U.S. inner cities during the 80s and was described by Ronald Reagan as an "epidemic". They out damage all other HACs and Command ships above 50km. All of them, the only exception being the cereberus and nighthawk which have missile travel time. The Cereberus and nighthawk are deadly short/medium range combatants able to field massive tanks and significant ganks in small to medium gang warfare. The Drake also benefits from this distinction. Especialy with HAM missiles and their Javelin equivelent[50km range on jav hams!]. Ravens work the same way, except bigger. I shouldnt even have to mention the Rokh, the longest range sniping battleship and one of the easiest to fit. It outranges all other racial snipers with tech 1 gear, its frigging disgusting. The one and only thing that caldari doesnt do is to is solo well. Everything else it has covered. PvE with missiles and varying damage types, Small/medium gang PvP with missiles/ew and shield tanks and medium/large PvP with rails/ew and shield tanks and fleet pvp with rails and EW. I cannot think of any race that does all things that well. Except maybe Gallente[but honestly, we all know they are broken]. Minmatar have the lowest long range DPS and optimal, they solo very well, but dont rat like gallente, let alone caldari, they have the worst EW bar none. Amarr is good at only one thing[medium sized gang pvp], and then a few ships that imitate Gallente, they have a decently strong EW that works best against themselves(woo irony). Gallente has a long range deficiency in the smaller ships leaving it with a medium sized gang pvp deficiency, doesnt rat nearly as well as caldari and has the most defended against ew in the game. Seriously, Caldari are very strong, quit your whining and learn to play. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:18:00 - [2] Originally by: Kehmor snip 1) Yup i read your original post. It was pretty bad, ignorant too. 2) Not every race is "valid" at long range. Caldari are the best. If you get a tackle on a cruiser, there is no non-caldari cruiser in the game that is going to match the range of a moa or a ferox. What this means is that the ferox and the moa do damage and the others dont. If you use your brains when fighting with caldari, and dont simply join the fight at the same range as your tacklers you can do a lot of good. Eagles use antimatter out to 50km![At which range they outdamage a 250 II Deimos ;)] Range has many many applications in Eve, if you use them you will do better. 3) No, missiles do not have the lowest DPS of any weapon in the game. If you compare them to say, autocannons, pulse lasers, and blasters, and then ignore assault launchers, heavy assault launchers, and torpedos then yes, they do have the worst DPS in the game. However that is like complaining that beam lasers do less DPS than autocannons. There is a difference in range. Missiles have very strong DPS into the mid range. The penalty they get for this strong DPS into the mid range where others start suffering is travel time. This makes them impractical in larger gangs, but just fine in small to medium gangs. Your t2 ammo does not suck any worse than anyone elses t2 ammo, it is simply not completly broken. The fact that kinetic remains the best choice for damage does not have anything to do with whether or not its easy to vary damage. No race gives up LESS to change damage types than Caldari does. Minmatar is extreemly limited in its choices[always kin, only two real choices after tat are kin and therm]. Gallente give up between 14 and 33% to vary their damage types[and due to drone bay limitations this is not very easy]. Amarr simply cant vary their damage types[aside from drones, or fitting autocannons]. And Caldari gives up 25% damage. As for nanoships[which are getting nerfed, partly because trackingless weapons make them uber], any ship that can outrun missiles, can outrun the turrets on a similarly sized ship. 4) Simply because you are too dense or stubborn to fit racial ECM and fly in a gang instead of fitting multispectral jammers and "wftpwning" over everyone does not mean your EW is "the weakest". Its not even close to turret dusruptors, let alone target painting[which is suprisingly good at raising torp DPS up to pretty insane levels] 5) Use your mid slots. What you dont fit your mid slots? OR you only fit for tank? that aint my fault. Mid slots are the king of PvP for a reason, they are the wild card. Stick TD's, Damps, tank, ECM, whatever you want in there. It isnt the fault of the Caldari design that you refuse to fit your ships for versitility. But please, tell Burn Eden that the raven isnt versitile. I am sure they will take kindly to the suggestion 6) No, the dominix does not come close to Raven DPS with "only drones and rigs" it caps out at 475 dps with tech 2 heavy drones and max skills. The Geddon does do better @ 40km[its 90% em though and cant change any of that to thermal] but the tempest, at 30-70km certianly does not. And nor does a rail megathron. The Abaddon or Geddon with Tachyons will do more damage per second than a cruise raven at those ranges. With nearly 0 tracking and two RCUs just to fit the guns. 7) No minmatar does not out tank you, in pure absolute solo DPS tankable yes, when the tank is being overpowered? No, when the caldari ship is using a passive tank? Bwa ha ha ha ha, minnies arent even close. And no the Hyperion doesnt either. Well, not if it fits any damage mods. Its all about trade offs. 8) A moa is going to hit your crow when its 100+km away from it. But yea, a web specialized recon ship will do better at killing frigates than a tech 1 rail sniper. Who'd a thunk. I would also like to take this time to note that the Vexor sucks balls, because the curse just craps all over it. cont... ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:27:00 - [3] Continued... 9) with WTZ snipers still play plenty of a role in combat. They have the ability to shoot things before others can shoot and they dont need time in order to change targets nearly regardless of range. 10) I fly amarr, I dont 1v1, but if you want to come out to scalding pass, or teneferis, then we can settle it right. Originally by: Kehmor haray! You can kill cruisers with this... No half decently tanked battleship or even battlecruiser will be brought down by a solo raven without a few damage mods Max battlecruiser tank 2x MAR + Tanking bonus + EANM/DC tank against EM is going to be about 472 DPS absolute and will run until cap charges end. So if you choose to shoot EM damage, then yea, you wont take out a battlecruiser. Now, if you choose to shoot kinetic damage you will be looking at a 291 dps tank. Now, since we have your numbers of "500 DPS max" on a raven[which is bull by the way, you get significantly more] and since we know how much 3 BCU adds to dps, we can turn that 500 dps and look at it against that BC super tank[5 slot injected] and find that a 0 BCU badly skilled raven will beat the tank by about 15 DPS. So the tank breaks when the cap chargers break. But then again, caldari arent the best soloing ships in the fleet. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 23/02/2007 11:54:20 [snip] I cannot think of any race that does all things that well. Except maybe Gallente[but honestly, we all know they are broken]. Minmatar have the lowest long range DPS and optimal, they solo very well, but dont rat like gallente, let alone caldari, they have the worst EW bar none. Care to elaborate, because aside from the Nosferatu/Drone boat combination (i.e. cookie cutter Dominix setups) I really don't see how Gallente are 'broken'... Mainly the drones/nos combination. And drones/guns when in combination with a prodigious amount of medium slots and it gets pretty bad. Add in the brutixs ridiculous configuartion [7 guns and a damage bonus? it outdamages all teir 1 battlecruisers in the medium range. Hell, the thing outdamages the prophecy and cyclone when its using rails and they are using pulses, at all ranges, it outdamages the ferox at all ranges inside 60km, and it shouldnt]. Toss in a side of the taranis and it gets pretty bad. Their are downsides and "gallente is broken" is an exaggeration, but gallente are a very strong line of ships that do what they do very well[probably too well] while being versitile enough to compete strongly [or outright win] in areas that are not supposed to be their forte. I havent looked at their frigates much, but i think the shorter range ones are a bit weaker compared to minmatar/amarr/caldari frigates. All in all its the "being extraordinarily good at their forte while not suffering in other areas as other races do that makes them "overpowered" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Kagura Nikon 50 km. ok That is still far more than any tempest setup I know that can dish 500 DPS at that range with any reasonable defense!! If I could dish 500 dps at 50km with any damage type and still have an impressive tank. I would be jumping of joy. Actualy the Maelstrom with 3 projectile falloff rigs and 4 explosive sentry drones can do about 500 dps @ 50km. Granted that is undershooting the DPS on the raven "just a tad" ;) ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:48:00 - [6] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kagura Nikon 50 km. ok That is still far more than any tempest setup I know that can dish 500 DPS at that range with any reasonable defense!! If I could dish 500 dps at 50km with any damage type and still have an impressive tank. I would be jumping of joy. Actualy the Maelstrom with 3 projectile falloff rigs and 4 explosive sentry drones can do about 500 dps @ 50km. Granted that is undershooting the DPS on the raven "just a tad" ;) and as it moves closer will start overshooting the raven by quite a lot. and out tanking. Yes and no. Also that is DPS after drones. also Quote: Ok well I fly caldari and seem to disagree with the popular view that they "zomg pwn, nerf plz". So I would like people to give me a caldari ship, and the pvp role that they believe it can accomplish better than any other ship. I want broad pvp roles such as "close range damage". I am excluding from this the crow and jamming ships as these excell at their not all that useful role. Edit: not I am not claiming I am right here, I just think i must be missing something. is not a question. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong Continued... Now, since we have your numbers of "500 DPS max" on a raven[which is bull by the way, you get significantly more] and since we know how much 3 BCU adds to dps, we can turn that 500 dps and look at it against that BC super tank[5 slot injected] and find that a 0 BCU badly skilled raven will beat the tank by about 15 DPS. So the tank breaks when the cap chargers break. But then again, caldari arent the best soloing ships in the fleet. these weren't my numbers please read before posting. As I said a tech II raven gets roughly 600 dps before drones with maxed skills. With Thermal drones that is about 800 dps. however without damage mods as people are suggesting i use my raven, then I will not have anywhere near this figure. Any battleship can out tank the raven without damage mods, or in some cases even with. Yes cap will run out, but not as quickly as an armor tanked raven's structure. No no no no no. 600 DPS right? 600 DPS without drones and with 3 BUCs? Right? BECAUSE I FIGURED THAT DPS WAS 500 with 3 BCUs and THEN i calced the battlecruiser tank. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Kehmor I believe I adressed this in full earlier. Caldari do add well with ecm in very pre-emptive strikes. Obtaining the ranges you are refering to and re-fitting your ship is what I would call a very pre-emptive strike. Read before you post please. "warp to x" were x is 50 o 70km. Blackbird highs: Who cares mids: Sensor Booster x 2 1 racial of each type x 1 lows: 1600 plate/ecm boost or 2x ecm boost Not exactly "very pre-emptive" it just requires that you dont get jumped, just like every long range setup rquires that you not get jumped. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:53:00 - [9] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong is not a question. I was asking for people's opinion while giving them more detail as to why through statements. The sentences within the post were not questions, the post overall was. as for the mael, my wing mate gets some pretty impressive figures out of it with autos. yes, he gets ~500 DPS @ max skills with 3 gyrostab IIs and 3 falloff rigs with drones. that is pretty impressive. The raven gets how much with drones at that range? How much 20 more KM out? ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Kehmor it also requires your enemies gang not having a single ship capable of hitting at that range. 1600mm plate. If someone targets you, as indicated by the little yellow or red flashing icon on your overview. jam them. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 14:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong is not a question. I was asking for people's opinion while giving them more detail as to why through statements. The sentences within the post were not questions, the post overall was. as for the mael, my wing mate gets some pretty impressive figures out of it with autos. yes, he gets ~500 DPS @ max skills with 3 gyrostab IIs and 3 falloff rigs with drones. that is pretty impressive. The raven gets how much with drones at that range? How much 20 more KM out? and how much does the raven get at 20k? or 10? Less. And what do we call that? Balance ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:04:00 - [12] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/02/2007 15:04:29 Originally by: Kehmor so basically your arguement is that caldari is good because what are meant to be our short range weapons have long range but crap damage. Genius. Make the torps 30km range max, or hell, even 20, and up their damage. Then it would be balanced. They dont have "long range and crap damage" they have long range and good damage. A Geddon maxes out at about 730 gun DPS @ 45km with megapulses and scorch. Its 91% Em damage and cannot change. A raven hits how much DPS to how far? Caldari are not fast nimble ships that are made for infighting and simple because you refuse to see where they are good you because you want to use them where they are bad you are having an issue with them. Learn to use them. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:10:00 - [13] So we have found the problem then? You are trying to shoehorn a very good race into the specific role of another race in an area that wholly plays against its strengths. Yea, if i try and play blasterboat with a geddon its going to suck too. The answer is not "geddons suck" the answer is "dont play megathron with a geddon you bleeding idiot" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kehmor it also requires your enemies gang not having a single ship capable of hitting at that range. 1600mm plate. If someone targets you, as indicated by the little yellow or red flashing icon on your overview. jam them. you have one of each racial jamming, so less than a 50% chance of succeeding. So every 20 seconds there is over a 50% chance you will die. Thats if they only have one ship with that range ability. You do a lot better than 50% chance to jam with racials. Especialy if you start using them on the same target[just as good as using MS but without the cap dran and more range due to probability]. Also ignores the 5000 HP armor buffer or the fact that you do indeed have gangmates ;) ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:17:00 - [15] Originally by: Kehmor Originally by: Goumindong So we have found the problem then? You are trying to shoehorn a very good race into the specific role of another race in an area that wholly plays against its strengths. Yea, if i try and play blasterboat with a geddon its going to suck too. The answer is not "geddons suck" the answer is "dont play megathron with a geddon you bleeding idiot" wrong. The problem is caldari don't follow the pattern of the other ships. That is: Blasters: very short range, very high damage Autocannons: slightly more range, slightly less damage Pulses: Slightly more range, slightly less damage (err, sorta) Torps: Much higher range, much less damage. Caldari can be the range race, fine. The problem is all other races are capable of achieving range, caldari arn't capable of achieving high damage. This is false they gain much higher range and slightly less damage. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:23:00 - [16] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/02/2007 15:19:35 Originally by: Kehmor snip for tree I dont believe my math is wrong. But i do think you have an inflated sense of just how strong EW is, especialy other forms of EW are, on the battlefield. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 15:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Kehmor i'm sorry? you are saying torps have "slightly less damage" than pulse lasers? by slightly you mean in the region of 30-40% 730/600 = 1.21 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.23 19:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Edited by: Felix Dzerzhinsky on 23/02/2007 18:45:10 Goumingdong - are you an alt? Because everytime you pick a forum fight, you seem to win hands down. Nope. I am a Nice Guy, I fly for WANG. Currenlty we have two noob weaning facilities one in low sec empire space and one out in the harsh realities of 0.0 and dominated by the ever present cries of "FOFOFOFOFOFOFOFOFOFO". Anything beyond that probably isnt wise to discuss. But you might see me out in battle slowly grinding away to interdiction manuvers[damn 7 base charisma!] and getting side tracked into tech 2 med lasers or attempting to boost my pet entirely to expensive retribution to even more levels of now not quite so untanked stupidity[the other day, i took a quarter of a day of training out of my schedule to fit a laser CPU reduction rig, enabling me to stick a TS thermal resistance plate in the last low slot instead of a co-proc. 34.5% thermal resistance in exchange for trippling the price of the ship] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.24 18:31:00 - [19] Originally by: Dragy Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kehmor i'm sorry? you are saying torps have "slightly less damage" than pulse lasers? by slightly you mean in the region of 30-40% 730/600 = 1.21 proof or stfu, the torps dont have 600 dps, write here calculations. Torpedo, tech 1: 450 Launcher RoF 19.2 BCU stats : 1.1, 1.087, 1.057 / .895, .90865, .94015 Skills: 1.25, 1.1 / .9, .85, .75, .9 Launchers: 6 Final DPS: 618.98 Range: 1.25[speed] x 1.5[skill] x 1.5[skill] x 30[flight time] x 1.5[skill] = 126 km. 618 DPS @ 126km. Geddon Pulse 726 @ 45km[Max opt+fallff+ skills = 73.44km] DPS Difference: 17.4% Range Difference: 98.5% Damage type difference: Immeasureable, but... base thermal for the missiles and you get for unhardened tanks these final damage ratios. This assumes that a shield tanker does not seperatly harden their shields to EM. Shield Pulse: 98.18% Shield Missile: 80% Armor Pulse: 42.27% Armor Missile: 65% After damage figured Shield Pulse: 712 Shield Missile: 494.4 Armor Pulse: 306.9 Armor Missile: 397.8 ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.24 21:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/02/2007 21:03:22 Originally by: Dragy Something ain't write here : Without dmg mods you get 347 dps. And the stacking nerf is a little bit different. Don't forget that fitting anything after torp launchers is a pain with only 2 low slots left. You get 374 DPS and they are right, i tripple checked them. Three damage mods give you about 65% more DPS. If the damage is too high[which it isnt] then the damage on the Armageddon is also too high[which it isnt] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.24 23:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Lemming Zealot snip The Geddon cannot fit anything but an HP tank[resists and plates] in that setup. The Raven can. Or it can fit EW[which the Geddon also cannot]. It is not that the raven is uber gank, but what it can do while also ganking. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Kehmor actually they do. Every t2 raven pilot knows that. But I believe you can get higher than 730 with pulses. Not @ 45 kilometers without using anything greater than tech 2. Originally by: Kehmor Edited by: Kehmor on 25/02/2007 10:30:05 On range: People who are saying how great their range is have either: a) never been in a battle, EVER b) no regard at all for the lives of their gang ok that was a generalisation, range has some use, especially in large gang wrk but for small gangs: Ok so your raven sits 70km away? lets ignore for the moment that it takes your torpedos about 20 seconds to even get to your target. Now whats holding your enemy in place? A gang member. Now while you might be out of that armageddon's or typhoon's or dominixes range, your wing mate is not. Boom. You've lost a ship, he warps out. A similar scenario using a dominix. Your tackler dies. But oh wait, so does your enemy. Not that you need a tackler... Get a better tackler. Is the crow not a caldari ship? Am i confusing it with something else? Does caldari lack interceptors? [and not conincidentally, the best tools to keep interceptors off of their interceptors] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:56:00 - [23] Edited by: Goumindong on 25/02/2007 12:52:56 Nope, they cant. And no, not everyone has heavy nos. ed: But then again, they can if that raven[or blackbird] is providing EW support. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Evula Moore Raven: best ratter bar-none, plus can be used effectly in close gate camps (but thats just a bonus) This is the only point I'd dispute...Raven is the best mission runner bar none, not as good out in a belt far from any support due to ammo constraints - certainly when 0.0 ratting where the ships tend to be bigger, a laser-equipped ship has certain undeniable advantages. If you cant figure out how to rat with ammo using weapons you should just end it right now. Missiles, due to being the easiest damage type changing weapons in the game. Plus having the luxuary of only one damage type, are easily the best ratting weapons. Safe a GSC and fill it full of ammo. When its full of loot, come back in a hauler and add ammo, and remove loot. Everyone else has to do the same thing anyway, since they have to haul the stuff out. Not using ammo is not a benefit. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Why so bitter Kehmor? Because when he went to the Ford store and asked for a truck, he was dissapointed that the F150 he bought was not Miatta. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:37:00 - [26] Originally by: Angus McLean The common phrase 'ZOMG nerff Calddariz!!1!' was constructed, not because of their amazing PvP/PvE power, but because most new features added were directed at boosting Caldari. People found/thought up that most of the new features added in new patches are seemingly 'Proving Caldari dominance.' Other than that they arent all that amazing in PvP action or Fleet action. Small gangs are good though. Nah, they do fine in Fleet work. Medium gang is their "hole" and its not all that large ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 05:06:00 - [27] Edited by: Goumindong on 26/02/2007 05:04:51 Originally by: Angus McLean Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 26/02/2007 03:05:32 Originally by: Angus McLean The common phrase 'ZOMG nerff Calddariz!!1!' was constructed, not because of their amazing PvP/PvE power, but because most new features added were directed at boosting Caldari. People found/thought up that most of the new features added in new patches are seemingly 'Proving Caldari dominance.' Other than that they arent all that amazing in PvP action or Fleet action. Small gangs are good though. Not amazing in fleet action? Eagle? Vulture? Rokh? Scorpion? Despite new ships and reduxes of older ships, they still dont outperform the abaddon/geddon or mega. And if by some crazy number crunching they do outperform those ships, its not by a very large margin. Scorpion is the exception because jamming is always the 'winzorz' in fleets. (I expect Gourmindong to crunch numbers and somehow prove me wrong in the next 45 seconds or so...) Kinda. Geddon > Rokh below 154km. Rokh > Geddon over 154km. Geddon Max Range = 154km DPS = 129.024 Rokh DPS @ 168km = 88.3 Rokh DPS @ 76KM = 132.55 Geddon DPS @ 76KM = > 145.55 If sniper effective range is between 50 and 250km then the Geddon is better in 54% of the situations and the Rokh the other. BUT the Geddon absolutly needs max skills to make this work, since the Rokh is, at max skills, 25km past game limited maximum lock range. Which means that it doesnt get hurt as much from less range. It also doesnt account for DPS comparisons. For instance, while the Geddon does outdamage the Rokh below 154km[actualy about 164 due to falloff]. The Rokh is still doing damage. And while the Rokh outdamages the Geddon above 154km, the Geddon isnt. What this means is that the rokh is pretty much unequivicially the best sniper in the game. You cannot ever deal damage to it when it cant deal damage to you and it can deal damage to you while you cant deal damage to you. Lets set up a risk analysis between the two. With two ships in our example both of each type to indicate more than one ship in gang[fleet setups remember] Rokh vs Geddon: first number is kills, second number is deaths. Shooting at each other. <154 >154 Total 2 Rokhs 1/2 2/0 3/2 2 Geddons 2/1 0/2 2/3 Rokh comes out ahead. Similar circumstances exist between the rokh and all other battleships[except in some cases the rokh just plain outdamages them over near the entire acceptable range i believe] Simular circumstances exist between the Geddon and nearly all other fleet battleships[except the tempest/Maelstrom i believe] Risk/benefit says choose the Rokh every time over any other fleet sniper in the game. ed: alpha strike throws off the figures between the tempest/maelstrom and the Geddon, giving them better effective DPS, and their longer falloff does allow them to outrange the Geddon, though not for all that much distance. Alphastrike should have little effect on figuring between the geddon and the rokh at close range because the Geddon which has more DPS also has more alpha. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.02 04:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Grey Area PG on a Rokh is not bad...but Cap is dire...you can't fire the railguns without running out of cap VERY quickly. You can file your petition in amarr prime. Take any Amarr ship you like, and put it up against a Rokh. I'll bet you the only thing that stops the Rokh running out of cap first, is that the Amarr ship will have killed it. Seriously? The Rokh should be able to, with a reasonable tank setup, tank any single ammarn battleship until its cap boosters run out. It should have a 500 DPS EM tank without an EM hardener or rig fitted[4 slots, invIIx2, boost amp, t2 booster+DCII, leaving room for injector and propulsion] The most EM damage an amarran ship is going to put out is going to be around 700 dps in a full gank, no tank setup the rest is going to be thermal[or explosive as is popular][above is max skills EM damage of scorch using abaddon]. So assuming that the amarran ship does 900 DPS and its all EM[which he doesnt] it will take him about 64 seconds to bust your shields. A max damage Armageddon is going to do 1042 DPS @ 45km with tech 2 heavy thermal drones[imho better with ex drones, but that will make the Rokh look better]. 660 if that will be EM and the rest thermal[381]. The Rokh will rep 480 EM/second and then the rest will have to eat through the tank. 180 EM, 381 thermal equates to 69 DPS EM and 118 DPS thermal and will break your shields in 53 seconds. Assuming the drones dont have any travel time of course. It also assumes you dont get within about 20km and achieve roughly 150m/s transversal. Which really shouldnt be that much of an issue, even for a caldari ship, since the setups required to do this type of damage require the absense of propulsion mods. The only reason an amarran ship wont be running out of cap before the caldari is because they simply wont be running a repper[plate only tank]. To put this in perspective. A Megabeam Geddon uses 36% more cap per second than a 425 Rail Rokh. A Tachyon Geddon uses 43% more cap. An Megabeam Abaddon uses 133% more capacitor and a Tachyon Abaddon uses 146% more. The Apoc, the easiest on cap uses 16% more for Megabeams and 22% more for Tachyons. But how about this since you want any amarr ship. Sniping setups in bubbles at 200km. One the amarran side, an apoc, Geddon, and Abaddon. On the Caldari side, a single rokh. See who wins... Now if you stick the Rokh about 40km from an armageddon and expect it to MWD to the Geddon then take it down yea, its going to have some problems. Then again, that is the only thing that lasers do well, and against Caldari or a few minmatar only thing they do exceptionaly well. Hence you are kind-of skewing the comparisons when the measure of a ships worth is not how well it performs against ships that are exceptionally well prepared to deal with it in its wheelhouse. Take it out of the wheelhouse and you have a different story. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.02 18:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: LUKEC Edited by: LUKEC on 02/03/2007 11:33:20 Originally by: Grey Area I love the way your post focusses on the fact that the Rokh can sit there and tank, and carefully skirts around the issue of whether or not the Amarr ship is EVER in any danger of taking damage from it...and the way you slip in that a cap booster is going to be necessary even for it to do that. Here was my idea, to really assess the "balance" of the ships Get the Amarr ship to about 75% Kinetic/Thermal resists (armor, obviously) Get the Rokh to about 75% EM/Thermal resists (shield, obviously) Park them at a set distance from each other, let them both select the right ammo/Crystal combination for that distance...and just have them open fire and see what happens. No cap boosters, no shield or armour repping, no jockeying for range...both just fitted for the best gank they can get and pounding the pooh out of each other. Which ship would die first? My money's on the Rokh - and even though it is the uber sniper - I think until you are actually out of range of the Amarr ship entirely, it would lose every time. There is small issue with your "test". To get resists on amarr that high you need 2kin 2x th. hardener. Then you need 2x rcu II to fit proper guns and then you need cap mods and suddenly you do deadly damage of blastertaranis. The abaddon really can do it. Specially if you use some rigs. It will run out of cap before it kills the rokh, or the rokh will be pretty much perma-tanking it.[at least until its cap boosters end]. It is all about the "set range", but the rokh has the advantage there for a number of reasons. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"

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