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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:03:00 -
[1]
As the title says, this is a request (take it as a whine if you will, i'm not particuarly bothered) with a view to getting enough people to agree so that CCP may bring it back (highly unlikely i know but its worth a shot).
Reasoning=
1) With Escrow you could browse everything, and effectively 'shop' for your items, i don't know about others but the thing that annoys me about contracts is having to shift through all the regions for the best price.
2) Scamming on Escrow was easier to detect through the simple use of your brain by just simply checking, i know with contracts that is also the way but for many players the fact that you can link item descriptions in freeform contracts gives them an air of legitimacy; and as such makes them misleading.
Of course contracts have there advantages, such as auctions; what i propose is not to get rid of contracts completly but rather keep the innovative parts and re-introduce escrow for those that want to use it.
Thanks for reading.
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Ichabod Crane
LFC
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:08:00 -
[2]
Escrow was removed because it was flawed and scamming is just as easy to detect on contracts by using your brain and your eyes. People simply choose not to.
As for getting the old system reinstated, the time to make this post wouldve been before the contracts system was introduced.
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Name Lips
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:11:00 -
[3]
I never knew the old system, but I don't see anything wrong with the contract and market system we have now, with one exception:
High enough trade skills should allow you to browse all regions without physically flying to them. Maybe I'm wrong and this is already in there, though. :)
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Mi Lai
Black Lance
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:11:00 -
[4]
Whatever they do, I would love an easier way to transfer bulk (like complete Hangar inventories) to other characters. Busy moving my hangars, and with the damage mods, the insured ships and the limmit to 100 items per contract makes take a lot more then I think would be needed.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:13:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 17:10:38
I agree i probably should've made a post about this ages ago but i forgot. In terms of scamming i believe it is much easier to scam using contracts and i never said that it couldn't be done on escrow.
To the AAA guy, yeh i feel your pain when trying to transport hangers full it gets annoying.
Maybe a reintroduction of escrow for a week to see what the community thinks would be a good option?
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Trem Sinval
Sinval Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:16:00 -
[6]
I say "no".
1. With escrow, you could only see the last 1000-odd escrows that were put up. The sorting options were awful, too, so when your buddy sent you something, as often as not you would miss it in the mass of idiots scamming Charons for Carbon, and if it fell off the "top-1000" slot, you COULDN'T CLAIM THE ESCROW. Yea, that worked well.
2. Scamming an item with an Item Exchange or Auction is impossible. "Scams" only occur through the foolish or ignorant using the wrong type of contract. It is utterly refreshing to be able to look for a module and KNOW that EVERY CONTRACT I'm looking at ACTUALLY HAS that item (instead of having to rely on someone's description, and having to check the item for EVERY escrow; don't forget those lovely description-less escrows that people set up. Never know what you'll get).
As for checking each region, it only takes a handful of seconds to switch over for each, and since the search drop-down keeps track of your previous regions, it's even faster. 15 seconds to check all of Cald space, another 15 to check Gall, another to check Min space.
- Trem |
CarboniC
Gallente
lOGISTICS INC
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:22:00 -
[7]
Hi
I dont scam - !! but i think it should not be removed -- its a form of game play that players want to follow - cheats etc and poor characters. BUT there should be better game mechanics to new protect players. More players that leave -- less profit to CCP-- No brainer really !
EG Player scammed -- Players should be able with game mechanics identify / paint the scammer to the other players something like a sec status report --IE TRUST STATUS/ seller status / feedback (contracts was supposed to do this in time).
Not happend has it ?
Carb
Trader and hauler. Jack of all trades, master of many.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:23:00 -
[8]
oki, why not refine escrow then to be better than it was- fix the problems you stated and make it a fusion with contracts; if that's what the community wants
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Father Weebles
North Face Force
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:38:00 -
[9]
add a search key
problem solved
right now i dont even bother checkin contracts because it takes forever to find what im lookin for
"Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
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Wayback
Cosmic Odyssey
Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:41:00 -
[10]
/signed
I agree with this. I dont however think they should bring back the old escrow but tweek this new one a tad. I love the interface, however trying to find anything with searches is almost impossible. I always give up knowing that the items i was looking for had to be on the market (common) but never showed up.
I also have a hanger full of named loot that is just rotting because tbh I cba to fight the contract system to insure I dont get scammed or unknowling scam someone else. You will notice the amount of forum auctions for named loot as gone way up. I feel that is what alot are resorting to do with named loot, I however feel this needs to be ingame(much less traffic on forums=terrible sales)
Just my thoughts on it.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:42:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Name Lips
I never knew the old system, but I don't see anything wrong with the contract and market system we have now, with one exception:
High enough trade skills should allow you to browse all regions without physically flying to them. Maybe I'm wrong and this is already in there, though. :)
You don't have to fly to each region The first dropdown box lets you choose "other region". Very helpful.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:52:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Mi Lai
Whatever they do, I would love an easier way to transfer bulk (like complete Hangar inventories) to other characters. Busy moving my hangars, and with the damage mods, the insured ships and the limmit to 100 items per contract makes take a lot more then I think would be needed.
If you can afford it, buy a freighter (or a bunch of Indies and Giant Cans) And put your stuff in the cargo holds.
good game |
prathe
Minmatar
Omega Enterprises
Dusk and Dawn
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:54:00 -
[13]
/signed
escrow was far better imho it had problems but introducing a new system to replace it with even more problems is not the solution 
i mean i dont want to rant but honestly ... stop posting vague dev blogs , stop posting " in light of RECENT EVENTS " blogs, stop posting here's what were thinking about adding to eve in the future .
The need for speed initiative was was the most brilliant blog i think you "ccp" ever posted and a sign of hope . but since then hey new missions ! new agents ! new features !
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Kaia Kua
Macabre Votum
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:56:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Elles D
Of course contracts have there advantages, such as auctions; what i propose is not to get rid of contracts completely but rather keep the innovative parts and re-introduce escrow for those that want to use it.
So basically you want item exchanges as the default, and the option to shrink the size of the items in the contracts list so you can fit more on to it.
As well as an option to search the surrounding regions all at once.
You don't want to bring back escrow at all, but expand the current contract system
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Zzazzt
Gallente
Millennium
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Posted - 2007.02.23 17:58:00 -
[15]
The big thing is regional visibility. I just want an "all regions" option on the cotracts search.
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Jason Marshall
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:04:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jason Marshall on 23/02/2007 18:02:48
Id like to see at least a browse region option where it just lists everything for sale. It ****es me off having to search for everything by typing it out. Its a problem since myself and alot of other people arent the best spellers in the world
Edited for spelling, and i didnt even do it on purpose 
Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw! |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: prathe
/signed
escrow was far better imho it had problems but introducing a new system to replace it with even more problems is not the solution
i mean i dont want to rant but honestly ... stop posting vague dev blogs , stop posting " in light of RECENT EVENTS " blogs, stop posting here's what were thinking about adding to eve in the future .
The need for speed initiative was was the most brilliant blog i think you "ccp" ever posted and a sign of hope . but since then hey new missions ! new agents ! new features !
The Dev Blogs are amazing. Other than thatI'd like to know what "problems" you have with the contract system. If you're talking about the "whole region" thing... I'd rather be able to search a specific region and see ALL the contracts than be stuck with the 1000 or so most recent escrow things. There was no way to set financial filters (only "affordable" which is useless if you're trying to see how much more money you need to get something cool)
If you're talking about the scams, they're very easy to spot on the contract system. DON"T USE FREEFORM contracts. Problem solved. Courier contracts are useful now. Item exchange contracts that are enforced by CCP? I love it.
Face it, escrow was flawed, limited, and retarded.
Contracts doesn't have the ability to search every region, but other than that, it's just fine. And honestly, I really don't want to search every region at once, If I have to travel 100+ hops to get something, I don't even want to look at it.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: prathe
/signed
escrow was far better imho it had problems but introducing a new system to replace it with even more problems is not the solution
i mean i dont want to rant but honestly ... stop posting vague dev blogs , stop posting " in light of RECENT EVENTS " blogs, stop posting here's what were thinking about adding to eve in the future .
The need for speed initiative was was the most brilliant blog i think you "ccp" ever posted and a sign of hope . but since then hey new missions ! new agents ! new features !
The Dev Blogs are amazing. Other than thatI'd like to know what "problems" you have with the contract system. If you're talking about the "whole region" thing... I'd rather be able to search a specific region and see ALL the contracts than be stuck with the 1000 or so most recent escrow things. There was no way to set financial filters (only "affordable" which is useless if you're trying to see how much more money you need to get something cool)
If you're talking about the scams, they're very easy to spot on the contract system. DON"T USE FREEFORM contracts. Problem solved. Courier contracts are useful now. Item exchange contracts that are enforced by CCP? I love it.
Face it, escrow was flawed, limited, and retarded.
Contracts doesn't have the ability to search every region, but other than that, it's just fine. And honestly, I really don't want to search every region at once, If I have to travel 100+ hops to get something, I don't even want to look at it.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:13:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Moraguth on 23/02/2007 18:14:53
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Edited by: Jason Marshall on 23/02/2007 18:02:48
Id like to see at least a browse region option where it just lists everything for sale. It ****es me off having to search for everything by typing it out. Its a problem since myself and alot of other people arent the best spellers in the world
Edited for spelling, and i didnt even do it on purpose
I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Could you give a little bit more detail, because I haven't experienced that situation myself, I'd love to help.
OH, sidenote. I will agree with one thing, escrow was very straight-foreward. Contracts needs some sort of tutorial or FAQ or walkthrough or something for those people who don't want to take the time (like Pseudo-OCD people like me do) to figure out how everything works. I'll be happy to help anyone who needs it. I'm not able to log in right now to verify some things, but I know alot of it by heart, so I'll help as much as I can.
EDIT: added pseudo. I'm not really OCD, maybe i just have no life.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:13:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Moraguth on 23/02/2007 18:15:38
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Edited by: Jason Marshall on 23/02/2007 18:02:48
Id like to see at least a browse region option where it just lists everything for sale. It ****es me off having to search for everything by typing it out. Its a problem since myself and alot of other people arent the best spellers in the world
Edited for spelling, and i didnt even do it on purpose
I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Could you give a little bit more detail, because I haven't experienced that situation myself, I'd love to help.
OH, sidenote. I will agree with one thing, escrow was very straight-foreward. Contracts needs some sort of tutorial or FAQ or walkthrough or something for those people who don't want to take the time (like Pseudo-OCD people like me do) to figure out how everything works. I'll be happy to help anyone who needs it. I'm not able to log in right now to verify some things, but I know alot of it by heart, so I'll help as much as I can.
EDIT: added pseudo. I'm not really OCD, maybe i just have no life.
good game |
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:51:00 -
[21]
auctions have ruined the "shopping" part though
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Irrilian
Quetzalcoatl Inc
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Posted - 2007.02.23 18:58:00 -
[22]
A few suggestions:
1) Dont touch free form contracts, or at the very least when examining one take the default view that its a scam
2) Use your ignore list fully. You can manually form a blacklist of people who's contracts you dont want to see, just enter a comma separated list of names in the ignore text entry box, it persists between sessions.
3) Use simple view to cut the interface cruft:
Open "Contracts";
Select the "Available Contracts" tab;
Click upon "Show more options" in the top right;
Click upon the "Sort each page by" drop down box;
Select "Simple view";
Set your search parameters e.g. "view: entire region" "type: all";
Press the "Get Contracts" button;
Click upon any of the column headers to sort by that column.
One feature that Id like to see expanded is the ignore list, perhaps have an ebay style seller/buyer rating system.
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Felix Dzerzhinsky
Pirates of Destruction Union
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:05:00 -
[23]
I used to browse/windowshop in Escrow. Sit back and go down the list of things for sale, dream of things to buy I could not afford, laugh at various scams. It was simple, spreadsheet style list, not applely graphics, no large text, it looked a lot like the overview, just a list.
With contracts, I have to go through one laggy page after another, I have to search for spacific things, I can't just see a long list, instead I get this stupid icon and 'multiple items'. . . . its bull****.
Its one aspect of EvE's "Make ui more 'user freindly'" that made things more laggy and more craptastic.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:11:00 -
[24]
Letting people see browse all contracts in every region simultaneously involves much more work for the hamsters, but people ought to be able to search for a particular item across all regions if they want to.
Other than that, the only change that I think is needed is the removal of scams freeform contracts. The contract system exists solely to provide security when dealing with other players - freeform contracts are useless by design, unless you're a scammer and you want to increase your visibility in the hopes of finding a mark. If you're providing a non-courier service, your only effective security is your word, or possibly a neutral third party - in such cases, a freeform contract is at best a token arrangement and at worst a means for your clients to rip you off.
------
Top speed calculation spreadsheet - feedback welcome :) |
Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kaia Kua
Originally by: Elles D
Of course contracts have there advantages, such as auctions; what i propose is not to get rid of contracts completely but rather keep the innovative parts and re-introduce escrow for those that want to use it.
So basically you want item exchanges as the default, and the option to shrink the size of the items in the contracts list so you can fit more on to it.
As well as an option to search the surrounding regions all at once.
You don't want to bring back escrow at all, but expand the current contract system
Well yeah tbh, but then again i would be very happy with just having the old escrow back too; sorry if i mislead you.
Thanks for all the responses, much appreciated from everyone; from my pov it seems as if many people find major/minor flaws within the contract system that need to be adressed, maybe this would be the best option; a dev's view wopuld also be nice CCP 
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:18:00 -
[26]
No. Get used to it. The new system, while still having a few issues that need addressed, is a vast improvement over the old POS escrow system.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky
I used to browse/windowshop in Escrow. Sit back and go down the list of things for sale, dream of things to buy I could not afford, laugh at various scams. It was simple, spreadsheet style list, not applely graphics, no large text, it looked a lot like the overview, just a list.
With contracts, I have to go through one laggy page after another, I have to search for spacific things, I can't just see a long list, instead I get this stupid icon and 'multiple items'. . . . its bull****.
Its one aspect of EvE's "Make ui more 'user freindly'" that made things more laggy and more craptastic.
Switch to simple view, i think a guy above told how. I can give you a walkthrough if you would like.
good game |
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:24:00 -
[28]
Learn to use the tools, instead of calling them flawed.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Learn to use the tools, instead of calling them flawed.
Bit of a silly thing to say really, why not change the tools for the better if you have the power to? Why learn to use something that is fundimentally flawed when we could just change the system for the better, thus making it easier to use- e.g. get rid of freeforms which serve the need of scammers.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:36:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 19:33:09
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 19:32:51
Originally by: Gaogan
No. Get used to it. The new system, while still having a few issues that need addressed, is a vast improvement over the old POS escrow system.
What's the point of improvement if it just throws up a bunch of new flaws?
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:43:00 -
[31]
The contract system sucks, I stopped selling stuff now, I just reprocess everything instead, not worth the hassle of making contracts, and train that ridicoulos skill.
Oh, and I stopped buying stuff from contracts, as I can't be arsed to check through all damn regions to find the item I'm looking for.
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: patteSatan
The contract system sucks, I stopped selling stuff now, I just reprocess everything instead, not worth the hassle of making contracts, and train that ridicoulos skill.
Oh, and I stopped buying stuff from contracts, as I can't be arsed to check through all damn regions to find the item I'm looking for.
The skill... easy to train, less than a day to get a bunch of contracts available to you. Also, the contract system has awesome features to make it easier to sell stuff, take a look at the right click menu when you click on an item or ship in your hangar. "create contract" amazingly simple and fast.
good game |
Tobias Sjodin
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.02.23 19:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Elles D
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Learn to use the tools, instead of calling them flawed.
Bit of a silly thing to say really, why not change the tools for the better if you have the power to? Why learn to use something that is fundimentally flawed when we could just change the system for the better, thus making it easier to use- e.g. get rid of freeforms which serve the need of scammers.
No it's not a silly thing to say, contracts work incredibly well. Though they do require some getting to know (learn) to understand. There is nothing "fundimentally" flawed about them. You think the old system was better? That's like saying you prefer the old cars because they had no GPS, electronic system equipment, and were in less lethal accidents. The contracting-system is a development of something that was too simple for what needs to be done in an advanced marketing system.
The fact you don't know how to use it (or care to learn to) is your problem, not the system itself.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:05:00 -
[34]
thats funny because many people i know agree with me.
1) Freeform encourages scammers and for people (i know experienced ones who it has happened to) to lose so much money to something that requires such a small threat is stupid IMO.
2) It needs to be simplified, for new players it can look extremely over-complicated.
3) The fact that you need skills to create more than one order is strange IMO, it discourages trade; the simple fact is many people can't be bothered to train the skill.
4) It's annoying and time consuming that all regions cannot be looked through at once at the same time.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:07:00 -
[35]
oh and fyi (ore monger) i do give everything new time to work, but i don't like it; it's an opinion which i am entitled to, i made this post to see if anybody else agreed with me, there is no need to pointlessly flame.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr
Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:18:00 -
[36]
Contracts is the worst market feature yet. Escrow was simple and you didnt have to study to upload anything.
Escrow was always full and had stable prices. Contracts are for scammers and ppl that think they put it right and loose tons of ISK cuz the system is too complicated.
Ship lovers click here |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:44:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Elles D
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 20:05:34
thats funny because many people i know agree with me.
1) Freeform encourages scammers and for people (i know experienced ones who it has happened to) to lose so much money to something that requires such a small change is stupid IMO.
2) It needs to be simplified, for new players it can look extremely over-complicated.
3) The fact that you need skills to create more than one order is strange IMO, it discourages trade; the simple fact is many people can't be bothered to train the skill.
4) It's annoying and time consuming that all regions cannot be looked through at once at the same time.
1) Freeform is the easist to scam, that's true, but that wasn't it's intent. Let me show you what it was intended for.
Freeform Contract
Issued by: Rangers Corp
Provide 1000 units of strontium every day at POS located in system blahblahblah.
Reward: 100 shares of ranger corp stock per week and an increase in standing of .5 per week of successful runs.
End Contract
That's just the first thing I thought of. All it is there for is to keep track of stuff so you and your corp can keep an eye on who does what for the corp (contract history) it is up to the contractor to say completed or not; the freeform was not intended for market purposes, that's what item exchange is for.
2) I agree with this (as I stated above) but it doesn't constitue a flaw in the contract system, it's a flaw with CCP in general that they didn't make a proper introduction to contracts beforehand. Usually, all new features are investigated by players, and the really nice ones write walkthroughs and post on these very forums. I suggest http://www.eve-search.com to find everything you need.
3) Contracts are not supposed to be for every-day market stuff. They are for specialized orders that are generally done by career traders. It takes very little time to train up for a "good enough" ability to place more contracts. If you "cba to train", honestly, that's your problem that you don't want to take a day to get it sorted out. Everyone I know has already gotten over it.
4) I kinda have to agree with this point, but honestly, it doesn't take THAT much time to search through the regions that do alot of business. This system is better (imo) than escrow because it shows ALL contracts, not just the most recent.
---
Some people choose to flame or call names or whatever, I hope you appreciate that I'm discussing and backing up my claims and viewpoints instead of just making blanket statements. I'll continue to do so, I hope you do so too.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Contracts is the worst market feature yet. Escrow was simple and you didnt have to study to upload anything.
Escrow was always full and had stable prices. Contracts are for scammers and ppl that think they put it right and loose tons of ISK cuz the system is too complicated.
Escrow had so many scams, you couldn't see ALL the items for sale. Escrow was flawed in that respect cause it only showed the most recent. Plus, you could only sort by "affordable" and "show all" with respect to money. With contract system, you can sort for a price range.
good game |
Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:51:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Elles D
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 20:05:34
thats funny because many people i know agree with me.
1) Freeform encourages scammers and for people (i know experienced ones who it has happened to) to lose so much money to something that requires such a small change is stupid IMO.
2) It needs to be simplified, for new players it can look extremely over-complicated.
3) The fact that you need skills to create more than one order is strange IMO, it discourages trade; the simple fact is many people can't be bothered to train the skill.
4) It's annoying and time consuming that all regions cannot be looked through at once at the same time.
1) Freeform is the easist to scam, that's true, but that wasn't it's intent. Let me show you what it was intended for.
Freeform Contract
Issued by: Rangers Corp
Provide 1000 units of strontium every day at POS located in system blahblahblah.
Reward: 100 shares of ranger corp stock per week and an increase in standing of .5 per week of successful runs.
End Contract
That's just the first thing I thought of. All it is there for is to keep track of stuff so you and your corp can keep an eye on who does what for the corp (contract history) it is up to the contractor to say completed or not; the freeform was not intended for market purposes, that's what item exchange is for.
2) I agree with this (as I stated above) but it doesn't constitue a flaw in the contract system, it's a flaw with CCP in general that they didn't make a proper introduction to contracts beforehand. Usually, all new features are investigated by players, and the really nice ones write walkthroughs and post on these very forums. I suggest http://www.eve-search.com to find everything you need.
3) Contracts are not supposed to be for every-day market stuff. They are for specialized orders that are generally done by career traders. It takes very little time to train up for a "good enough" ability to place more contracts. If you "cba to train", honestly, that's your problem that you don't want to take a day to get it sorted out. Everyone I know has already gotten over it.
4) I kinda have to agree with this point, but honestly, it doesn't take THAT much time to search through the regions that do alot of business. This system is better (imo) than escrow because it shows ALL contracts, not just the most recent.
---
Some people choose to flame or call names or whatever, I hope you appreciate that I'm discussing and backing up my claims and viewpoints instead of just making blanket statements. I'll continue to do so, I hope you do so too.
Even though i don't agree with you it is really nice that you take the time to set out your arguments in a constructive manner, thankyou 
and in terms of your first point, even though freeforms were not intended to be used for what they are (like jetcans), they are all the same and therin lies the problem.
Again thanks for being civil and constructive.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 20:55:00 -
[40]
Yeah, it is an unintended consequence, so generally, the rule of thumb is not to accept freeform contracts.
Much like the general rule of thumb is not to use jetcan mining if there's an ore thief in the system.
good game |
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Jason Marshall
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.23 21:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Moraguth
Edited by: Moraguth on 23/02/2007 18:15:38
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Edited by: Jason Marshall on 23/02/2007 18:02:48
Id like to see at least a browse region option where it just lists everything for sale. It ****es me off having to search for everything by typing it out. Its a problem since myself and alot of other people arent the best spellers in the world
Edited for spelling, and i didnt even do it on purpose
I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Could you give a little bit more detail, because I haven't experienced that situation myself, I'd love to help.
OH, sidenote. I will agree with one thing, escrow was very straight-foreward. Contracts needs some sort of tutorial or FAQ or walkthrough or something for those people who don't want to take the time (like Pseudo-OCD people like me do) to figure out how everything works. I'll be happy to help anyone who needs it. I'm not able to log in right now to verify some things, but I know alot of it by heart, so I'll help as much as I can.
EDIT: added pseudo. I'm not really OCD, maybe i just have no life.
Id like to view the contracts like i could view escrows, now i have to type out any item im looking for =\
Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw! |
Derran
Minmatar
Khumatari Holdings
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.02.23 21:46:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Elles D
1) With Escrow you could browse everything, and effectively 'shop' for your items,
You mean like the market? It doesn't really make sense to have both.
Originally by: Elles D
i don't know about others but the thing that annoys me about contracts is having to shift through all the regions for the best price
That kinda sounds like you are saying you want them to make something because you are too lazy to travel, which you'd have to do anyway since those items were found in Jita. In other words, just go to Jita and skim through the contracts like you would escrow.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 21:54:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Originally by: Moraguth
Edited by: Moraguth on 23/02/2007 18:15:38
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Edited by: Jason Marshall on 23/02/2007 18:02:48
Id like to see at least a browse region option where it just lists everything for sale. It ****es me off having to search for everything by typing it out. Its a problem since myself and alot of other people arent the best spellers in the world
Edited for spelling, and i didnt even do it on purpose
I'm not quite sure what the problem is. Could you give a little bit more detail, because I haven't experienced that situation myself, I'd love to help.
OH, sidenote. I will agree with one thing, escrow was very straight-foreward. Contracts needs some sort of tutorial or FAQ or walkthrough or something for those people who don't want to take the time (like Pseudo-OCD people like me do) to figure out how everything works. I'll be happy to help anyone who needs it. I'm not able to log in right now to verify some things, but I know alot of it by heart, so I'll help as much as I can.
EDIT: added pseudo. I'm not really OCD, maybe i just have no life.
Id like to view the contracts like i could view escrows, now i have to type out any item im looking for =\
There was no search function in escrow. You didn't type anything, so i'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.
good game |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 21:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Derran
Originally by: Elles D
1) With Escrow you could browse everything, and effectively 'shop' for your items,
You mean like the market? It doesn't really make sense to have both.
Originally by: Elles D
i don't know about others but the thing that annoys me about contracts is having to shift through all the regions for the best price
That kinda sounds like you are saying you want them to make something because you are too lazy to travel, which you'd have to do anyway since those items were found in Jita. In other words, just go to Jita and skim through the contracts like you would escrow.
I'd like to point out, once again, that back with escrow, you didn't necessarily see the "best" price for an item. After you waded through all the scams, you only saw the most recent prices for an item because escrow kinda worked like a cache, only the most recent items were displayed.
"Browsing the escrow" was exactly the same as switching the contract window to "simple view" and browsing the region, now you just have the advantage of knowing more where you're going before you start.
good game |
Zeigmen Ganzalez
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Posted - 2007.02.23 21:57:00 -
[45]
Signed - escrow was way better.
The new system has no soul nor is it at all usable for trading like escrow was.
Escrow 4tw
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tiller
OctoberSnow Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.23 22:09:00 -
[46]
At least let us scan whole of eve for contracts....
It is destroying the market for named items.. and making finding them real time consuming BS tbh
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Karodnotos
Caldari
Tides of Silence
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 22:19:00 -
[47]
I agree with Moraguth. Contracts is better than escrow at all points.
I remember docking at a station (!), loading escrow, getting me a coffee and when i was back the list of the latest 1000 (Freeform-(!))trades was loaded.
Sometimes hitting the wrong button, escrow loaded again and drove me nuts.
I used to refresh my trades every 2 hours because otherwise nobody would have seen them.
For auctions (and if i wanted a specific item) i had to browse the (overcrowded) sell forum for hours. These days i dont bother looking into the sell forum, cos i use contracts.
2 reason why people want escrow back:
1. Too lazy to learn the new system (no offense, im lazy myself, but i played with contracts for some hours (the time i usually browsed the sell forum) and now im quite used to it and happy)
2. They joined EVE after contracts were introduced...
___________________
Eve Wiki | dont forget |
Paco Paco
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Posted - 2007.02.23 22:53:00 -
[48]
I gotta agree that the contract sytem could use a bit of refining. Any guide to the should include the line, "Freeform contracts are scams. Don't touch them if you don't want to be ripped off." Admitedly they do have a purpouse, to put gentlmens' agreements onto paper. Then again, in a gentlemens' agreement one's word the only garauntee. In that regard freeform contracts are O.K.
The other main problem with contracts is limited visibility. I believe that you should be able to search all regions for a praticular item. I'd like to see suh a search function also be able to look into multiple items contracts so that if the item is part of a lot it will still come up as a vialbe contract. Forcing people to look through each region individually is just a time-sink.
Also, CCP has forced a two market systm by disallowing certain items from being placed for sale or purchase on the regular market. The contract system is meant for high end items. Why disallow "window shopping" of such items; some people have enough isk to amek this an option. To keep the hamsters happy I'd limit to regional contract when "window shopping."
Both the escrow system ans contracts have their pros and cons. I believe we'd all like to see the pros of the escrow system added to the contract system while leaving just enough cons for the scammers to have fun too.
P.S. I don't like scammers. I hate them to be sure, but it is a legitimate way of playing EVE.
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Chejun Ishari
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Posted - 2007.02.23 23:10:00 -
[49]
As I see it the main issue with contracts is not scamming. Scams come and go and if you are careful enough you won't fall for one.
The main issue with contracts is that it's UI is not very userfrieldy. For people who know what they are looking for it's ok... you can search for whatever you are looking, but for people who do trading it is not very convinient.
You need to make a list of items you want to trade and then serach for every item and check for good deals... with escrow you could just sort alphabetically and check, say all gistii stuff (provided the people who issued the escrow named it intelligently enough).
What contracts need ist the option to search for items with names containing a certain string of character.
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Jason Marshall
Emerald Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.23 23:14:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Moraguth
There was no search function in escrow. You didn't type anything, so i'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.
No, i want to be able to brows the current contract system like i did escrow, im tired of having to type the items im looking for in the current system.
Tacky lens flares in sigs 4tw! |
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Karodnotos
Caldari
Tides of Silence
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 23:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Originally by: Moraguth
There was no search function in escrow. You didn't type anything, so i'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.
No, i want to be able to brows the current contract system like i did escrow, im tired of having to type the items im looking for in the current system.
Hm, if u type in nothing and click 'get contracts', u can browse the region. Not sure if u mean the same.
___________________
Eve Wiki | dont forget |
Majin82
Caldari
g guild
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Posted - 2007.02.23 23:58:00 -
[52]
FIX THEM, MAKE CONTRACTS SCAM FREE.
Remove FreeForm Contracts All Together
I'm sick of having to inspect the location, the items, the type of contract, and 10 other things just to make sure I am not getting ****** over.
I want to check 1 thing, see that the item is there and then bid or complete the process.
Of course Scammers are a part of eve, but I'm getting sick of having to deal with all the BS in EVE.
I want to play this game not micro manage it.
-------------------------------------
The difference between a Pirate and an Anti-Pirate is that an Anti-Pirate fights ships fitted with guns!
Passive Drake For The Win |
Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 23:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jason Marshall
Originally by: Moraguth
There was no search function in escrow. You didn't type anything, so i'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.
No, i want to be able to brows the current contract system like i did escrow, im tired of having to type the items im looking for in the current system.
I don't usually type anything when i'm looking through the contracts. I just choose my region and hit "get contracts" and they all come up. AGAIN, if you change it to simple view, it looks almost exactly like escrow did. And you can search from space (OMG so useful on those long trips through space). I'm always "window shopping" as someone above put it. If anything, i'll type in a price range of something i'm looking for.
About the "intelligent naming system" that people used to use in escrow. That's where alot of the scams came from too.
I'm not saying Contracts are perfect yet, there is alot of functionality I'd like to see added, specifically, I'd like to see ALL ITEMS searchable (there are some items that you can't search for, or that was the case a couple weeks ago at least). Also, I'd like that search function to include searching INSIDE multiple-items contracts (if it doesn't right now, haven't tested it yet)
good game |
NightmareX
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:10:00 -
[54]
Edited by: NightmareX on 24/02/2007 00:09:06
OMG LOL, bring back escrow? LMAO, are you crazy, why bring that crap back into EVE?
Escrow IS gone, and it will be to, and it will never come back, and i'm happy for that.
Learn how to use Contracts guys
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
The Socialworker
Minmatar
The Socialworkers
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:22:00 -
[55]
Signed/ The only reason I just came to the forums was to start a 'bring back escrow' thread, and guess whats the top topic! There is a big hole in my game atm. I tried to live with 'contracts', but it is so so clunky. I mean did the creator of contracts ever spend any time buying and selling in eve before designing it? If they said they did I would find it hard to believe. Escrow had a few faults but it's hard to find anything good to say about contracts. How many people where sitting around the table when they decided ' O.K. guys, lets get rid of escrow and replace it with contracts'?
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patteSatan
Celtic Anarchy
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Elles D
Originally by: Moraguth
Originally by: Elles D
Edited by: Elles D on 23/02/2007 20:05:34
thats funny because many people i know agree with me.
1) Freeform encourages scammers and for people (i know experienced ones who it has happened to) to lose so much money to something that requires such a small change is stupid IMO.
2) It needs to be simplified, for new players it can look extremely over-complicated.
3) The fact that you need skills to create more than one order is strange IMO, it discourages trade; the simple fact is many people can't be bothered to train the skill.
4) It's annoying and time consuming that all regions cannot be looked through at once at the same time.
1) Freeform is the easist to scam, that's true, but that wasn't it's intent. Let me show you what it was intended for.
Freeform Contract
Issued by: Rangers Corp
Provide 1000 units of strontium every day at POS located in system blahblahblah.
Reward: 100 shares of ranger corp stock per week and an increase in standing of .5 per week of successful runs.
End Contract
That's just the first thing I thought of. All it is there for is to keep track of stuff so you and your corp can keep an eye on who does what for the corp (contract history) it is up to the contractor to say completed or not; the freeform was not intended for market purposes, that's what item exchange is for.
2) I agree with this (as I stated above) but it doesn't constitue a flaw in the contract system, it's a flaw with CCP in general that they didn't make a proper introduction to contracts beforehand. Usually, all new features are investigated by players, and the really nice ones write walkthroughs and post on these very forums. I suggest http://www.eve-search.com to find everything you need.
3) Contracts are not supposed to be for every-day market stuff. They are for specialized orders that are generally done by career traders. It takes very little time to train up for a "good enough" ability to place more contracts. If you "cba to train", honestly, that's your problem that you don't want to take a day to get it sorted out. Everyone I know has already gotten over it.
4) I kinda have to agree with this point, but honestly, it doesn't take THAT much time to search through the regions that do alot of business. This system is better (imo) than escrow because it shows ALL contracts, not just the most recent.
---
Some people choose to flame or call names or whatever, I hope you appreciate that I'm discussing and backing up my claims and viewpoints instead of just making blanket statements. I'll continue to do so, I hope you do so too.
Even though i don't agree with you it is really nice that you take the time to set out your arguments in a constructive manner, thankyou
and in terms of your first point, even though freeforms were not intended to be used for what they are (like jetcans), they are all the same and therin lies the problem.
Again thanks for being civil and constructive.
I must say its very good to see posts like this, but it wont make me change my mind....yet.
Yes, escrow was very limited, but I think, adding parts that was introduced with contracts, would have been better for most parties, not a completely new system.
I really miss the option to look at ALL escrows(contracts), and dont like that a new skill was introduced, as Im not a trader, it takes time off skills I REALLY need to train.
Thats why I have been reprocessing faction stuff lately.
<br>
...you women are creepy, but amusing as hell.
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:41:00 -
[57]
Seriously, about the skill training. It is a rank 1 skill. If you took about 4 hours to train it, you'd have a higher contract skill than me. If you have good stuff and set it up as an item exchange it sells very fast. Or, sell in bulk. I've yet to run out of available contracts, and if i do, i'll train for 3hrs 10 mins and get it from 2 to 3. It's simple, I promise.
good game |
Doctor Blue
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Posted - 2007.02.24 00:52:00 -
[58]
SIGNED// And to the people saying learn to use it, the point is traders are selling to punters who have no inclination to learn to use it. Contracts has no shop window. And to the guy saying contracts is just as searchable in simple mode as escrow, well I must me missing something. I can't find the setting that gets me 1000 listings on one page, where I can, for example, flit between Domination, Corpum, True Sansha, Repubic Fleet etc disrutors in a few seconds.
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mafesto
Minmatar
Luna Tech Manufacturing Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:12:00 -
[59]
yes, escrow was flawed, but it was much, much, much better than the contract system we have now
it was a daily thing for me before to shop on escrow....searching through contracts is just frustrating IMO
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Moraguth
Amarr
Rangers
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:22:00 -
[60]
Well, to some of you all I can say is, you're wrong. I do exactly what you used to do with escrow right now, in a very short period of time. It's fast, easy, searchable, customizable, all-inclusive, functional, flexable, and awesome.
Escrow was fine for way back in the day, eve is just too big now to use a clunky, basic, system like escrow was.
Escrow is gone. Escrow is not coming back. Excrow is inferior.
Stagnation = death.
Contracts = the here, the now, and the future.
good game |
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Dave White
Beagle Corp
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:24:00 -
[61]
No need to bring escrow back, the current contract system just needs a few tweaks here and there.
EvE +NLINE - T+TALHELLDEATH SUPPORTER |
NightmareX
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dave White
No need to bring escrow back, the current contract system just needs a few tweaks here and there.
Exactly, and i agree ofc
Infinitus Odium - We Are The Bringers Of Hatred |
Doctor Blue
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:37:00 -
[63]
Dave - well I guess that rolling back escrow probably isn't an option now, but at least bringing back a bit of the user friendlyness would be good.
Moroguth - Well what can I say. Is there a new role created recentley for covert propaganda moderator (it wouldn't surprise me)
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Kell VanEyck
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Posted - 2007.02.24 02:09:00 -
[64]
Come on people- while i will admit it is a little more difficult to search, and that CCP needs to address this (allow descriptions and the ability to sort by them please!!! because i HATE "Multiple Items" listings), it really is much better as a system. On escrow if yours didnt sell in a day, you had to re-escrow because it would stop showing up, it could be anywhere in space (I LIKE knowing what region im searching) and it was extremely limited in its sales options. So contracts is a complicated system, if its too much to handle go back to playing WoW, i play EvE because it actualy takes some brains to enjoy. The increased depth and functionality of contracts, not to mention the VASTLY increased amount of contracts/escrows it allows you to see make it well worth using.
And if your worried about scams, just dont search Freeform contracts.
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Elles D
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.24 15:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: NightmareX
Edited by: NightmareX on 24/02/2007 02:15:13
Originally by: Dave White
No need to bring escrow back, the current contract system just needs a few tweaks here and there.
Exactly, and i agree ofc
Instead of using time to bring back Escrow, then use the time to tweak and fix some of the few things that need to be fixed on Contracts instead.
After thinking about it this preety much sums it up for me; my big beef with contracts is not being able to browse them ALL, add that and i would def be a happy bunny
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