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Why cap boosters don't belong in Eve

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Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.25 23:54:00 - [1] In my opinion cap boosters donÆt belong in Eve and IÆll explain why. They basically mean that every ship using a cap booster (and sufficient repair modules to tank the damage) can live longer than any other kind of setup. It doesnÆt really matter how good your setup is, what your resists are and/or how much hp you have and regain passively, as long as you have cap boosters and thereby capacitor energy, you will live. This means that cargospace is an actual important property for pvp, a thing that should never be true in my opinion. It makes things somewhat boring since a non-capacitor boosting ship will almost never have a chance against one that does use them (in most cases). The ability to just get energy out of nowhere means that almost everyone will fit them on ships that can actually tank some damage in pvp (battlecruisers, battleships and above) I realise they are an important safety cord for some missionrunners but IÆd suggest to at least improve their size so we wonÆt see pvp with many cargo containers in ship cargoholds, all filled with cap booster 800Æs.
Aaron Zebulun	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:02:00 - [2] You're forgetting tho you can only hold so many, i usually only get 18 in my ship. Its not like we're pulling 800 charges out of our asses, they take up alot of room, and once theyre gone thats it, we're screwed becuase the setup relys on it. now i think a rough guess means with 4 already in my booster, ive got a total of 250 maybe nearing 300 seconds of continuous booster running there, thats only about 4 minuts. And if you're nossing me the whole time, you have a constant supply of cap too.
Duana Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:02:00 - [3] I think this is a bit too overgeneralized. Perhaps in a 1v1 situation in similarly sized ships this type of thing would be true. But there is always going to be some maximum dps any tank can defend against, regardless of how long your capacitor stays strong. Once called primary and a few ships of similar size are spraying down fire on it, at some point the shield boosting or armor repairers are simply not going to be able to keep up with it. -------------------- Juffo-Wup fills my fibers and I grow turgid. Violent action ensues.
Sgt Blade Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:02:00 - [4] well there are times where a person can unleash enough damage so that the reps cant keep up... many a times where i hae seen it happen where the guy cant tank fastenough... even with lots of cap you can still go down Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5
Warrio Ruin Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:05:00 - [5] Without cap boosters NOS would simply win Eve hands down even more than it does atm. As a great user of the Curse, the Myrm and the NosDomi I think this is a great idea but in practise it would make for some really predictable PvP fights as whoever had the most NOS wins easily. Yarr etc.
Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:18:00 - [6] I don't really think nosferatu's are really balanced either.. they should suffer from tracking or have some other kind of penalty. Because 1 thing is flawed doesn't mean something else should stay in place to make that 1 thing less worse though.
Durham Elysion Solar Wind	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:24:00 - [7] I was using booster 800's on my mega today versus a rokh with 4 heavy dim noses, my cap was still draining, and due to the dual LAR II setup I had to use Ions, and therefore not having enough DPS to bring him down. That kinda sucked :(
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:37:00 - [8] Cap boosters have other limitations. Think about long range raiding parties out side of empire space. If you go deep into 0.0 with hostiles around your ship only lasts as long as you can cap boosters. Its not like you can just dock and get more. While NOS needs a rebalanced the only counter is still cap boosters even if the effect is reduced. Short of out right jamming NOS has no other counter. While were talking about cargo space :P you should know that again your ship is limited, i could choose to only bring enough ammo for one maybe two fights and only of one type and fill the rest of my space with boosters... but then what happens if we have 3+ fights or im in deep 0.0 where i cant buy more ammo. What if the damage type im doing is far less effective or i need more range? I am forced to balance my damage/range options, number of engagements, and tank/cap all in one very small cargo hold. Cap boosters are part of the game and a good one at that. They are very limited and do not give you an unlimited tank.
Damien Smith Turbulent	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Drykor In my opinion cap boosters donÆt belong in Eve and IÆll explain why. They basically mean that every ship using a cap booster (and sufficient repair modules to tank the damage) can live longer than any other kind of setup. It doesnÆt really matter how good your setup is, what your resists are and/or how much hp you have and regain passively, as long as you have cap boosters and thereby capacitor energy, you will live. Try this little experiment: Buy a Megathron, fit it with T2 blasters, fit it with a microwarpdrive, fit it with a rep, don't fit a cap booster. Now try and kill something. Now see why we need cap boosters? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) Damien's our #1 subscriber!! - CCP
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:55:00 - [10] This man does not fly blasterboats, and therefore his opinion on cap boosters is irrelevant. -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:07:00 - [11] this thread really isnt worth it cap booster are fine as is
Attonasi Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:39:00 - [12] The fitting requirements for cap boosters are also pretty high. They aren't exactly free cap. =P I hate forums
Kun'mi Amarr An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:50:00 - [13] I'm sorry, but you're crazy and biased. You've OBVIOUSLY never flown an Amarr ship, or one that requires alot of cap. I do not undock without a cap injector on any of my amarr ships. To run all my modules without one means sacrificing a MINIMUM of THREE SLOTS for cap rechargers, cap power relays etc. IMO the cap injector is the only thing that keeps Amarr setups viable in PVP.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:00:00 - [14] So another item x is unfair. Try doing say a lvl 4 Mordus headhunter without a cap booster. Nano's, WCS's, ECM, Istabs and now cap boosters. Lets just eliminate everything, create only 1 ship that everyone can use equally from day one and make EVE a FPS game.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:03:00 - [15] Edited by: Kassidus on 26/02/2007 02:00:31 Edited by: Kassidus on 26/02/2007 02:00:16 I dont agree Cap booster use up crazy ammounts of cargo space, tons of grid and cpu limiting your load out options, and because if everyone running around with 4 or more NOS per ship, its necessary to stay alive. This post is nonsence.
Gwendolyne Croft	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:12:00 - [16] Originally by: hotgirl933 this thread really isnt worth it cap booster are fine as is Oh! Thats means they have to be nerfed. If a player says its ok, then its overpowered

Suvetar Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:19:00 - [17] Folks, please keep it constructive and respectful, Thanks! Now that's out the way; this is my opinion as a player. (and not indicative in anyway of CCP or ISD stance on this :P ) Saying EVE shouldn't have CapBoosters is like Saying WOW shouldn't have Mana and health potions. When it comes down to it, you can only have so many - and can only use them so often; it doesn't take long to take a ship using them down. On the other hand, it is (imho) bad that certain ships, blaster boats mainly, and ships that have an MWD bonus essentially can't work without them. forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our new Website!

Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Suvetar On the other hand, it is (imho) bad that certain ships, blaster boats mainly, and ships that have an MWD bonus essentially can't work without them. QFT Kinda sucky that blasterboats have a very finite number of fights before they need to 'refuel'. OTOH, they are Eve's answer to sex, so I suppose there should be some downsides -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Ilea Celentay Veiled Justice	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Drykor I don't really think nosferatu's are really balanced either.. they should suffer from tracking or have some other kind of penalty. Because 1 thing is flawed doesn't mean something else should stay in place to make that 1 thing less worse though. Ahh, NOS with tracking penalty; I would have gotten that (new) Gallente BC kill had that been the case... Though, I don't much like the idea, I would have liked the kill! Faction Ship Info \|\| Rig Factory
Laythun Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:37:00 - [20] Is this a nerf Amarr thread? It sure sounds like a nerf Amarr thread /emote gets boots of flaming ready snip please keep sigs EVE-related. Contact [email protected] if you have any further questions - Karass Sayfo Black Lance Brother
Malakhan Gallente Phoenix Wing Alektorophobia	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Lrrp Try doing say a lvl 4 Mordus headhunter without a cap booster. Easy.. Dominix with 133 second cap recharge time 4tw ---

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.02.26 11:47:00 - [22] Save your whineage until people starts using NeutCapBoostDomis. Help me help you .

Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:04:00 - [23] Originally by: Suvetar Folks, please keep it constructive and respectful, Thanks! Now that's out the way; this is my opinion as a player. (and not indicative in anyway of CCP or ISD stance on this :P ) Saying EVE shouldn't have CapBoosters is like Saying WOW shouldn't have Mana and health potions. When it comes down to it, you can only have so many - and can only use them so often; it doesn't take long to take a ship using them down. On the other hand, it is (imho) bad that certain ships, blaster boats mainly, and ships that have an MWD bonus essentially can't work without them. Exactly my point though. I never played WoW but I did play a game where you could just swallow potions for as long as needed and this is one of those things that made pvp pretty boring and the whole concept of it was fundamentally flawed there. With some responses here I can see that some ships in Eve pretty much need it though, so maybe I was uninformed, still I'd like other solutions for them rather than having to use 'potions'. In every game I played they made pvp more boring and actually encouraged MORE of the same playing style instead of opening up other possibilities in pvp. If this is not the case in Eve then my knowledge of it has just been lacking and I guess I'll eat my words, but I'd still like to see some alternatives for their use on cap intense ships.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Drykor Originally by: Suvetar Folks, please keep it constructive and respectful, Thanks! Now that's out the way; this is my opinion as a player. (and not indicative in anyway of CCP or ISD stance on this :P ) Saying EVE shouldn't have CapBoosters is like Saying WOW shouldn't have Mana and health potions. When it comes down to it, you can only have so many - and can only use them so often; it doesn't take long to take a ship using them down. On the other hand, it is (imho) bad that certain ships, blaster boats mainly, and ships that have an MWD bonus essentially can't work without them. Exactly my point though. I never played WoW but I did play a game where you could just swallow potions for as long as needed and this is one of those things that made pvp pretty boring and the whole concept of it was fundamentally flawed there. With some responses here I can see that some ships in Eve pretty much need it though, so maybe I was uninformed, still I'd like other solutions for them rather than having to use 'potions'. In every game I played they made pvp more boring and actually encouraged MORE of the same playing style instead of opening up other possibilities in pvp. If this is not the case in Eve then my knowledge of it has just been lacking and I guess I'll eat my words, but I'd still like to see some alternatives for their use on cap intense ships. I too would like a Blasterthron which performs as well as ever but does not depend on cap boosters. Yes plz CCP. -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Duana Juffo-Wup fills my fibers and I grow turgid. Violent action ensues. http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2224/mycon24k2tx.gif Star Control II ftw! EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Acinonyx Jubatus International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:17:00 - [26] Originally by: Chribba Save your whineage until people starts using NeutCapBoostDomis. h8
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:20:00 - [27] Originally by: Lrrp So another item x is unfair. Try doing say a lvl 4 Mordus headhunter without a cap booster. Nano's, WCS's, ECM, Istabs and now cap boosters. Lets just eliminate everything, create only 1 ship that everyone can use equally from day one and make EVE a FPS game. i can do the last stage whitout a capbooster and large SB :) u have to be smart about it.... back on topic. cap boosters are NEEDED on amarr ships 100% allso blaster ships higher than Cruisers need em. allso caldari rail BSs (if enyone hasnt used 425mm rails.... damn those eat cap like hell) other races have the nice advantage of no cap guns. cap boosters dont need a nerf. they are one of the only things we have against NOS and most of the time it wount help enyways. Great being Gallente... aint it ? ----------------- <------ Hijack free space :) -----------------
FromBeyond TheGrave Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:32:00 - [28] I don't suppose you've tried belt pirating in a blaster boat have you?
Timeto Die	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:37:00 - [29] Eve is like playing super advanced scissors-paper-stone with 10 hands behind your back. Don't limit the options and make it, erm, straight up scissors-paper-stone.
FromBeyond TheGrave Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Timeto Die Eve is like playing super advanced scissors-paper-stone with 10 hands behind your back. Don't limit the options and make it, erm, straight up scissors-paper-stone. ROCK PAPER SCISSORS!
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.02.26 13:58:00 - [31] Hey Dry. "This means that cargospace is an actual important property for pvp, a thing that should never be true in my opinion." Why not? I won't ever use cap boosters and you know why? I like my cargo space. I'd rather try to come up with a setup where I'm nossing the dude with his silly cap booster. Nosses might need a nerf, in which case cap boosters might need to get looked at, but right now there are enough downsides to this having to refuel and waste cargo space thing. As for people saying you need them for missions. No you don't. Lrrp, your theory is flawed. Well, your ability to mission run is flawed. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - "186,282 miles per second; It's not just a good idea, it's the law."
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.02.26 14:04:00 - [32] On topic: Cap boosters are, to me, a delicate part of the balance of module and counter-module. Neutralisers and nosferatus are extremely effective at killing cap, and even with boosters it can often be a scrabble to get enough cap to run that MWD or get a full repair cycle off. The inherent limitations on their use (volume, rate of injection including reload cycles) keeps them in a perfectly acceptable position in my opinion.
Tarkan Kador Amarr PanTarkan Kador Holdings	Posted - 2007.02.26 14:47:00 - [33] If you want to spend a mid slot using a cap booster, you can tank a lot. You pay a cost though in versatility. In Amarr setups especially, those mid slots are precious. Those are where your webbers go, your ECM, your AB/nano, your scrams, and a whole bunch of specialized modules that are crucial in PvP. If you are a tackle/pursuit pilot, you couldn't even mount the cap booster, even if you wanted to, because you need every mid-slot freed up to use for other things. So I see the cap booster as a real specialized module, because like you said, you need space for charges. Not so much of a problem for Amarr, but hard for other races who need to store ammunition and missiles too. Its best used when you can predict who is going to be called primary, and you aren't flying with an osprey, augoror, or other support vessel.
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.02.26 14:49:00 - [34] I have lost ships plenty of times while I still had charges left. If they outdamage your tank you will go down regardless.
Heinrich Klaus Internet Tough Guys Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:38:00 - [35] You see a lot of webbers, scrammers, and mwd or afterburners too, should we remove them? It seems like 3-4 midslots results in the same items! Cap boosters are the best way to avoid being nossed by large ships, and beat nos in general. If you want to see something used more than cap boosters, prolonging fights, and not even using cargo space, take a look at nos.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:19:00 - [36] Now, now. I don't think the original post meant that cap boosters should be taken out of the game, period. I think that he meant some things need to be rebalanced around it. If I misunderstood, here goes MY suggestion. Cap boosters could be removed from the game, or rebalanced IF the following held true: Nos was A LOT less effective. (effectiveness cut to half and less) Caps were bigger in general (+50% for the win) Cap recharge was a lot more, and different between ships (projectile/missile oriented ships get maybe 60-70% the total recharge rate of hybrid/laser oriented ships) A mid slot module that actally added something close to half what a 800 booster does, i.e. cap rechargers and batteries were actually useful. The GOAL would be to have a situation where useful alternatives to cap boosters existed (a single cap booster gives you something like 66cap/second, which you SHOULD NOT NEED unnless tanking extreme amounts of damage), and it is something like 10 times the normal recharge rate of ships. This simply means that the normal recharge of ships is too small. Yes it is impossible to have a blastership without boosters. HELL, i'd say it's suicide to not have boosters in ANY pvp ship. That is not arguable. What IS arguable is if there would be a better alternative to the cap booster. As it is, it is another mandatory module to carry if you want a damaging ship. I think the "problem" - for those that believe it exists - is the diminishing recharge rates of caps along ships. Why don't you need cap boosters in frigates? Simply, because if you run out, you go away recharge and return. The recharge rate is enough for a workable ship. The differences in cap recharge are a lot smaller than they should- ideally battleship should get twice cap/sec than cruiser, which would get twice than frigate, and then cap boosters would simply not be needed at the extent they do today. Boost total cap amount by A LOT, boost recharge rate A LOT making it size-independent (as it is now a frigate is perfectly balanced to cap production/consumption while battleships are gimped having a crazily low cap recharged/used factor), nerf NOS to the point that a 4-6 heavy nos would be barely enough to counter the natural recharge rate of a ship the same class as the nos (so practically you could use it to counter a ship more tactically instead of instand PWNAGE), and then either remove the boosters from the game (they would be replaced by actually USEFUL rechargers) or cut their capacity to 25% (making them give you something close to DOUBLE the normal recharge rate instead of 10x). This should be planned in such a way that battleships should effectively function like having a permarunning heavy booster with 200's, making battles more tactical and making cap something like hp's: it does not drop instantly, if it dies so do you, but a lot less prone to die. And to the esteemed ISD member, I would add that in my personal opinion, eve should NOT have the equivalent to healing potions and such, it has a lot, lot more going for it to give it that kind of flavor. It is exactly the reason I am against cap boosters in general. Please don't flame until you are sure of what I suggest. I prefer being corrected then flamed.
Kery Nysell Caldari Nysell Incorporated	Posted - 2007.02.26 19:39:00 - [37] I'll just point a tiny snippet of info at the OP : Cargo space is, and always was, an important factor in PvP, because unless you use lasers without ever changing the crystals, you need ammo to kill the baddies ... I don't do any PvP (apart from my attempts at "competitive pricing" on the Markets), but I know that when you're out of ammo, you've lost ... a Raven without missiles can't scratch the paint of a shuttle, for example ... A guy with a cargo bay full of 800's will have a lot of cap, and on some Amarr ships that could mean a huge tank + good DPS, but on all the others ships, that would mean only enough ammo for 1 "load" of his guns, and nothing left after that ... emptying a magazine can be quite fast ... and after that, you could try chucking 800 charges at the enemy, but somehow I don't think that would work ...
Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.02.26 20:39:00 - [38] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 26/02/2007 17:32:31 Now, now. I don't think the original post meant that cap boosters should be taken out of the game, period. I think that he meant some things need to be rebalanced around it. If I misunderstood, here goes MY suggestion. ... Indeed, though that might not have been obvious to all. This whole energy warfare thing takes a too big part in pvp in Eve. Almost every bigger ship has some kind of capacitor stealing/gaining module, what ships fly without a nos/neut/cap booster now? In my opinion you can make pvp more interesting and fast paced without having to drain your enemy's cap first before you can kill him (and yes I know you won't live when you get called primary by a larger group or if you don't have the amount of repairers to actually use all that cap, that's a non-argument). I know there are ships that need capacitor for their guns too and to be honest I don't have a good solution for that matter, one thing I can think of is splitting cap used for repair modules and cap for other modules like jammers or weapons, but this would probably make things more complex than needed. Having said all this, I agree there are other things that need fixing more badly, I just wanted to bring it to your attention and discuss it, this wasn't ment as an OMG NERF!11 thread. Some reactions here make me remember why I prefer scrapheap challenge though.
Kara Kaprica Minmatar Warspite Developments	Posted - 2007.02.26 20:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 26/02/2007 17:32:31 Yes it is impossible to have a blastership without boosters. HELL, i'd say it's suicide to not have boosters in ANY pvp ship. That is not arguable. snip Never use them, its not essential, snip. Don't troll/flame please, be nice to your fellow players. -Oiri Yusko Always Outnumbered. Never Outgunned.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.02.26 21:18:00 - [40] Cap boosters are only a life-prolonger if your tank can rep more than teh damage you're recieving (VERY few setups can manage this) and your not being NOS'd enough that your booster cooldown cant keep up. So yea, assuming those two variables are positive (not likely) cap boosters allow the person to live indeffinantly...well, until their boosters last. So yea, OP's argument is pretty lame. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
AlphaMeridian Ars ex Discordia Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.26 22:35:00 - [41] Quote: In my opinion you can make pvp more interesting and fast paced... Just to touch on this "fast paced" comment: Most of the changes that CCP is making to combat length are to make it less fast paced such that they can add more detailed things like Heat and System Sub-Targetting. If anything, I would guess that the proliferation of cap boosters and harder, sturdier tanks is something that CCP sees as positive. -Alpha
Mr Peanut STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.26 22:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Chribba Save your whineage until people starts using NeutCapBoostDomis. Shhh!!! Don't let them know!!!
Deva Blackfire Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.26 23:18:00 - [43] Why noone told me cap boosters were so uber :( My 3 absolutions died before i burned most of them :( (1 - Ignoob with his nyx melted me in 30 seconds, 2- carrier+stuck mwd+getting into web range = bye bye abso, 3-3-4x dominix +2x mega+ raven ;p) Boosters are needed in the current state of Nosf/Neuters. If you remove em you spell doom for ALL amarr gunboats - which can not keep cap recharge to keep guns online. Add 1-2 nosf and they are screwed. "Fit CPRs CRs". Yes - i would need to use up 5-6 slots to counter 2 nosferatus.
Denrace Amarr JEM Industries	Posted - 2007.02.26 23:25:00 - [44] Solution: Give NOSes charges similar to cap charges. Like energy zapping tokens. Den ________________________________________ Forum Signatures for just 10Million ISK Just EVEMail me a request ☺

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