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Privateers.....respect??

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Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.26 23:15:00 - [31] Edited by: Ugluuk on 26/02/2007 23:13:23 Originally by: Dr Slice Edited by: Dr Slice on 26/02/2007 23:05:04 Xendie likes to talk alot of smack. You just have to learn how to ignore him. Yeah..I just got offended when my mate said he followed topics with my name in them and talked down on who i am.. But Eve is unfair sometimes..I know i dont log to save 4 mill..If i did i would most likely logged to save my 600mill on the hyperion instead of waiting to save a lousy pod with no implants who cost 4 mill.. Xendie blocked me when i tried to talk to him also without any smack so i guess he has to keep his pride intact when it comes to privs being cheaters..It aint fun to find out you are wrong sometimes.. http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Ugluuk
Lance Hawke New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.02.26 23:24:00 - [32] I think I'm cute. I know I'm sexy. I've got the looks, That drive the girls wild I've got the moves, that really move 'em. I send chills up. Up and down their spines. I'm just a sexy boy, Sexy boy I'm not your boy toy, Boy toy I'm just a sexy boy, Sexy boy I'm not your boy toy, Boy toy I make 'em hot. I make 'em shiver. Their knees get weak, Whenever I'm around. They see me walk, They hear me talk, I make 'em feel, Like they're on cloud nine I'm just a sexy boy, Sexy boy I'm not your boy toy, Boy toy I'm just a sexy boy, Sexy boy I'm not your boy toy, Boy toy Eat your heart out girls Hands off the merchandise
BANDID NED-Clan R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.26 23:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Ugluuk Edited by: Ugluuk on 26/02/2007 22:59:19 Originally by: Xendie Originally by: Arekhon ahh yes I will also give props to Beyond Divinity Inc. ...very good corp there. not! their leaders log off to save his pod wich is very lame, no respect to lame ppl. Some people in Eve got so much hate towards the concept Privateers that they cant see past the wall they have built up about privs being a bunch of cheaters.. Xendie is one of them.. I undocked in Amarr with a celes ship to fight..I alunch drones and start attacking and he does nothing even tho he is in a much better ship.. Soon realised he had ctd/blackscreen and when he came back in to the game he called in backup as over half his tank was gone.. When they came and opened fire and i opened local chat i crashed..They blew up my ship but my pod flew away.. I logged in again and found my pod back at the same spot as the ship blew up.. They were all still there so i had to warp out when i could just like i would had to do when the ship blew up.. Talked to Darth Solo who had gone into blackscreen cause of the terrible lag near the station.. After this Xendie follows the topics i get mentioned in and call me a cheater. He also calls my corp cheaters cause i crashed in that fight.. I convoed him to talk but he says: Privateers is logoffski so you are also a logoffski. So because he kill people that can be his mates alt who log off to save the pod i must had done the same.. Even tho my pod cost only 4 mill and the new clone was 250 m away from where i died.. Let me tell you one thing Xendie..Your ceo challenged me to 1vs1 to death once and ran from the fight when his blaster/ab setup didn`t hit my faster setup with rails and mwd. Another guy who was celes member at that time Goldenboy ransomed one of my guys..And when he got the isk he blew up his pod.. In my situation you say im a cheater,dishonorable guy cause of my alliances actions( people i dont fly with for the record).. This was YOUR OWN corp`s actions so if what you say about any member of the offending corp automatically becomes dishonorable i must say: Welcome to the wall of shame where we all are guilty as hell.. I also asked if his mate was dishonorable..Afterall he dropped from the game too.. But apparently a Celes member who drops from the game when i undock and launch drones is acceptable.. But a Bydi member dropping when his 10-20 man backup comes and open fire is not acceptable.. Nice way to put yourself above all others.. I have died 3 times like tis in privateers.. 1 time to razor.. 1 time to celes.. 1 time to goons.. Razor didn`t reply in local..Not even when i offered my pod to be killed.. Goons killed my super tanked rigged hyperion and i congratulated them with the kill as it aint their fault i lag out to miss a good fight.. So know you know Xendie..ASk them if they wanna team up with you on the anti Ugluuk campaign.. So yes i do hate privateers, i went last week to amarr to get some uber mods i had like 12 of them after me but they couldnt catch me. I readed some privateers bio and he had something funny in it. I said hello in local and all i get was u mother peeep peeep peeep peeeeeeep in local back. I just wanted to be nice that was all and i did enjoy the chase after my celestis :) And for BYDI i dont want to read bad things about them, i blame ugluuk to join an alliance ;) but they are the best pvp corp i have been ever in. Allways fighting outnumbered and mostly winning from bigger corps or alliances. And yes B@NDID IS BACK!!!!
Xendie Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.27 00:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Ugluuk lots of waah-waah as i said in the convo we had, i dont like ppl who logs off and calls it "ctd" when the timing of the "ctd" is extremely well timed at around 10-15% structure left. i drew my conclusion as has others. and your saying that you have nothing to do with the privateers isnt the truth you know, unless you have had total amnesia since before you joined the privateers alliance. you are in the privateer alliance. the "incidents" you speak of i still have no knowledge about as i also told you. i looked for this Goldenboy in P&P and comes up with a guy named Goldenboy that has been in federal navy academy since 2005.10.30 09:23:00 i also told you that i dont hate you, i merely pointed out that as i said earlier here timing on ctd was way to good to be a ctd. especially since ive seen in 3 days 6 privateers logging off in structure to save their pods, what a coincidence that lots of privateers have a ctd bug at 10-15% structure.... amazing. and darth crashed before you attacked him wich would be odd dont you think especially since he was the bait for the privateers to bite in to when we had a full gang just waiting for someone to bite, not exactly the time for someone to log off as we would want someone to bite. and i blocked you after you sent me a whining mail because i closed the convo when you started repeating yourself and more chanting "i ctd'd" to yourself more then trying to tell me. you call yourself a pvp'r, i call you a lamer that logs off to save your pod, nothing more nothing less and i dont hate you i pity that you have to lie to yourself for a mere 4mill clone and any self respect you might have. have a nice day and dont foam so much around the mouth as its not healthy ugluuk. Originally by: "darth solo" bad men came, bad men didnt go home, bad men left containers.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:02:00 - [35] Originally by: warpod Seen once when 5 privs (including 2 BS) fled from single maelstorm. The problem with this sort of quote - which i see a lot - is that some terd in a raven jumps to a gate - sees 3 privateers leg it - then goes PRIVATTERS WONT ENGAGE MY RAVEN 3v1 THEY ONLY HIT HAULERS GRRRGARGGHATEGRRGARRG Wont you dont see is that when you jumped - the other 10 peeps at the gate are another enemy alliance we deced. They show up as big flashing red pulsars to us but nothing to you. So you beat your manboobed chest and swing you y-fronts around your head with * abandon like you are mr uber not realising you would have been popped in a second if it wasnt for the gank squad next to you. This aint a compaint against the number of dec btw. Quiet the opposite. It just explains why often peeps may not engage. Originally by:** Shaemell Buttleson A few of my ex corpmates have joined one of their corps and I know they are decent PVP'rs. A couple of times their members have started smacking me in local without me saying anything in the first place and other times when I have collected things for new ships in places like Jita I see them dropping cans on the exit points, and camping other places that would hardly give anyone a decent chance due to the lag etc. I like the idea behind what they do but a few tosspots really put me off them totaly. I cant talk for whole alliance but i was accused of droping cans outside a station in amarr. Its true... i dropped a can. But not to lag peeps out. When I kill ships outside a busy station - every noob and his dog descends on the can. I ejected my cap charges to provide cargo space to get some on my rightfull loot before thieves nicked it. Suddenly im "dropping cans to create lag", when in realtiy im doing nothing of the sort. I dont know other cases, but this is probably whats happening many times. Just you dont fight outisde station so you dont know the problems involved. So you cry foul. SKUNK
Gank Master	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Le Skunk I cant talk for whole alliance but i was accused of droping cans outside a station in amarr. Its true... i dropped a can. But not to lag peeps out. When I kill ships outside a busy station - every noob and his dog descends on the can. I ejected my cap charges to provide cargo space to get some on my rightfull loot before thieves nicked it. Suddenly im "dropping cans to create lag", when in realtiy im doing nothing of the sort. I dont know other cases, but this is probably whats happening many times. Just you dont fight outisde station so you dont know the problems involved. So you cry foul. SKUNK You remind me of rosewell and the weather ballon.... PMSL.... nice cover up story anyhow though.. very creative.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Xendie and your saying that you have nothing to do with the privateers isnt the truth you know, unless you have had total amnesia since before you joined the privateers alliance. you are in the privateer alliance. The corporations who have joined the privateer corporation under the Privateer Alliance banner are seperate from the action of the privateer corporation. The privateer coporation founding principal is to provide a service to the eve populace. This service was to enable any man or woman (and anything in between)who felt like it to come join and have free access to thousands of war targets whether you wanted cheeps ganks, relished the thirll of constant combat, or hated the domineering, 0.0 grabbing, t2 BPO hoarding alliance types having their cake in the their 0.0 space and expecting to eat it safely in empire. The open policy inevitably attracted a wide variety of pilots. Some of which will be guilty of all the so called crimes you may thor at us. But as log as they didnt grief a corpie - they were in. The corporations who have joined the alliance to contribute to and share the pool of wardecs we have running, have their own rules, their own ethics, and indeed standards. Ive flown with many of my aliiance matesnd they are great guys, many horrendously good pvpers. We help each other out, gang together often, but actions they take can in no way affect the privateers corp rep and vice versa. No body goes to me OH YOUR IN BYDI's ALLIANCE YOU MUST BE A GREAT PVPER But your happy to go OH YOUR IN ALLIANCE WITH THE PRIVATEERS YOU MUST BE LOGOFSKI HAULER GANKS It defys reason. The privateer alliance dosent run a beuraucracy, so your gonna get some odd situations. People say IN MY ALLIANCE THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN But we are not your alliance, we dont want to be. This is the Privatter allaince, something new to eve. Anyhows just my 2p SKUNK
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Gank Master Originally by: Le Skunk I cant talk for whole alliance but i was accused of droping cans outside a station in amarr. Its true... i dropped a can. But not to lag peeps out. When I kill ships outside a busy station - every noob and his dog descends on the can. I ejected my cap charges to provide cargo space to get some on my rightfull loot before thieves nicked it. Suddenly im "dropping cans to create lag", when in realtiy im doing nothing of the sort. I dont know other cases, but this is probably whats happening many times. Just you dont fight outisde station so you dont know the problems involved. So you cry foul. SKUNK You remind me of rosewell and the weather ballon.... PMSL.... nice cover up story anyhow though.. very creative. LOL. Maybee peeps do drop lag cans i dont know. I know i didnt and got accused of it. PS I aint got no prob with you Rome0. No need to pipe up :) SKUNK
Rohab Aegis Incorporated	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:23:00 - [39] There is very little honour in being in Privateers due to the nature of their work. I have very little respect for their pilots for that very reason but seeing as i live in 0.0 i'd like to invite them out of thier easy gank lifestyle and head out to play with the big boys. I think one of them said they were not hauler gankers, but that they hit a carrier or two. Thats exactly it they don't even understand that its the fact it ain't hard to group up and out number the targets. Someone should form a few more Anti-pirate alliances to combat the likes of pirates in Empire as thats what they are in essence.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 02:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Rohab There is very little honour in being in Privateers due to the nature of their work. I have very little respect for their pilots for that very reason but seeing as i live in 0.0 i'd like to invite them out of thier easy gank lifestyle and head out to play with the big boys. I think one of them said they were not hauler gankers, but that they hit a carrier or two. Thats exactly it they don't even understand that its the fact it ain't hard to group up and out number the targets. Someone should form a few more Anti-pirate alliances to combat the likes of pirates in Empire as thats what they are in essence. Lols i get tired of these sam type posting the same ****. According to them 0.0 combat involves queensbury rules, 1 on 1, equal matched fights and handshakes and ginger ales afterwards. No blobbing in 0.0 you see No using of bubbles so the target has no chance to escape. No taking advantage of node crashing No taking advantage of soem alliance heads connection dropping. No 23/7 camping of station by massive forces to prevent lone pilots getting out Its all true! 0.0 for the win Stop mouthing off and get into empire if your so worried. If your 'boss' allwos you off enforced mining operations SKUNK

Gix Firebrand Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.02.27 07:20:00 - [41] Two things. Firstly, to all the people chest thumping about 0.0 space. It takes real men to live there? Pfft. All it takes is a couple of ships. I lived in a quiet system for a time myself. I didn't see much real men. Just a lot smack in local.. Secondly, since Privateers is no longer accepting applicants, any other corps belonging to the Alliance? ;)
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.27 07:41:00 - [42] Edited by: Drasked on 27/02/2007 07:38:35 Originally by: Rohab There is very little honour in being in Privateers due to the nature of their work. I have very little respect for their pilots for that very reason but seeing as i live in 0.0 i'd like to invite them out of thier easy gank lifestyle and head out to play with the big boys. I think one of them said they were not hauler gankers, but that they hit a carrier or two. Thats exactly it they don't even understand that its the fact it ain't hard to group up and out number the targets. Someone should form a few more Anti-pirate alliances to combat the likes of pirates in Empire as thats what they are in essence. Hello sir, i would like to invite you for a "nice cup of STFU". And where just 1 corp.. also yes we did gank 2 carriers the other day.. but it went down nothing like how it did in your head, we actually kept the 3 carriers there for about 30 min with about 5 people before the blob arrived to finish the work, and im not only talking about 3 carriers but also about 5 people support wich kept comming back with new ship to help the carriers since we where in their home system. Also it is quite funny how you consider yourself "one of the big boys in 0.0" your not even close mate.. "Thats exactly it they don't even understand that its the fact it ain't hard to group up and out number the targets." But thats what you call "the big boys in 0.0" ??
darth solo Insurgency	Posted - 2007.02.27 10:10:00 - [43] Ugluuk if u say u CTD, then i believe u. the lag outside amarrs main station was mental, im sure its something to do with that old station or the gass cloud or sumthin. i didnt even load. i was bait in that ship, have u seen the damage output of a claymore?. the idea was always to call the guys in while i hold down the targets. Your alliance mates had earlier tried to fight my claymore with 2 bs and a frig, i hold them down and call in the guys, and they comment on how we are lame for a gank, while surely they were doing the same to me?, or is a nos domi, a armageddon and a frig a fair fight against a claymore?. Its pretty obvious lots of ur alliance mates use the black screen of death outside jita 4-4 to get easy cheap kills, face it eve is a game of baiting and ganks, very rarely am i blessed with a good 1v1. d solo. celes apoc new kilboard
Arekhon Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.02.27 12:28:00 - [44] Ummm...Yea....derail someone elses thread please.... mmmmmmkayyy...thnx
Zafriel Aliastra	Posted - 2007.02.27 12:52:00 - [45] Originally by: darth solo Ugluuk if u say u CTD, then i believe u. the lag outside amarrs main station was mental, im sure its something to do with that old station or the gass cloud or sumthin. i didnt even load. i was bait in that ship, have u seen the damage output of a claymore?. the idea was always to call the guys in while i hold down the targets. Your alliance mates had earlier tried to fight my claymore with 2 bs and a frig, i hold them down and call in the guys, and they comment on how we are lame for a gank, while surely they were doing the same to me?, or is a nos domi, a armageddon and a frig a fair fight against a claymore?. Its pretty obvious lots of ur alliance mates use the black screen of death outside jita 4-4 to get easy cheap kills, face it eve is a game of baiting and ganks, very rarely am i blessed with a good 1v1. d solo. Eve is bait and gank, but lets face it...thats half the fun. But I will 1v1 you anytime Darth
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2007.02.27 12:55:00 - [46] Originally by: Arekhon Ummm...Yea....derail someone elses thread please.... mmmmmmkayyy...thnx Sorry :p But yeah i cant really comment on your OP since im in privateers and not 'the rest of eve' but imo you cant really see the privateer alliance as a group of people but more like a concept, the concept of privateers wont be changed by certain corps joining or leaving. The corp called privateers supplys a service to the eve universe, the people that use this service cant really effect the service itself. ie. My corp didn't join privateers because of their reputation or because we are such good friends with them. We joined because they provide a service wich is "a ****load of wardecs for the price of 1"
Ugluuk Caldari Beyond Divinity Inc Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 14:22:00 - [47] Originally by: darth solo Ugluuk if u say u CTD, then i believe u. the lag outside amarrs main station was mental, im sure its something to do with that old station or the gass cloud or sumthin. i didnt even load. i was bait in that ship, have u seen the damage output of a claymore?. the idea was always to call the guys in while i hold down the targets. Your alliance mates had earlier tried to fight my claymore with 2 bs and a frig, i hold them down and call in the guys, and they comment on how we are lame for a gank, while surely they were doing the same to me?, or is a nos domi, a armageddon and a frig a fair fight against a claymore?. Its pretty obvious lots of ur alliance mates use the black screen of death outside jita 4-4 to get easy cheap kills, face it eve is a game of baiting and ganks, very rarely am i blessed with a good 1v1. d solo. Thank you very much Darth.. I usually dont care what people say about me but accusing me of cheating like he did is a personal attack at what i stand for.. I know the claymore aint a damage machine and you are a skilled pilot that i knew would be a good test for the myrmidon.. Was a pleasure to speak with you in local afterwards and i didn`t doubt you a second when you said i got your tank down that much cause you lagged out completely.. Even tho i dont have a good relationship to Celes i know you speak the truth.. Lets hope we get enough Bydi`s on for a good fight Darth.. http://privateer.griefwatch.net/?p=pilot&pilot=Ugluuk
Spaced Skunk D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:02:00 - [48] I like the idea of Privateers Alliance, and EvE game mechanics allows it to work...the only thing I hate about it is not the pilots themselves but the lag. As in, my corp mate just lost his Enyo and pod, because he undocked and he lost his ship and pod while it was still black screen. Nothing he could do, I am sure at least one of the pilots shooting him knew he was in black screen but a kill is a kill. Obviously the Enyo must be reimbursed by CCP, providing they see his case legit. But when backup got to him, obviously way too late, (he didnt even see any ships shooting him, he had to tell them intel using the killmail) privateers give us a good fight and we ended up killing an Eagle, Kestrel, Thorax, Incursus and his pod, so in the end more isk destroyed on our part, so respect to privateers at this stage :)
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:15:00 - [49] Originally by: warpod Absolutely no respect to many of them. They prefer to kill soft targets like haulers or miners or gank 9 vs 1 I had to quit to npc corp since I haul much (can't do with alt) AND THAT, my friends, is exactly how you make privateers useless. Get a hauling alt in NPC corp ;) Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community
Pete Stalker Kemono. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:56:00 - [50] So much love in here... There is no buisness like Pete's buisness.

Polux Quam Singulari	Posted - 2007.02.28 01:18:00 - [51] dunno what all the fuss is about. just shoot them, have ganked many of them even UG himself (never smacks never logs). people need to stop whining and shoot stuff. btw I have a history with BYDI many a RL friend in there in the past, much respect for them they have ernt it.
Ogdru Jahad Amarr Golden Fury Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 02:07:00 - [52] having gangs of around 15+ sit in empire gates waiting for targets to come along aint pvp.. - .
Ragornok Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 03:21:00 - [53] Edited by: Ragornok on 28/02/2007 03:19:31 Edited by: Ragornok on 28/02/2007 03:19:07 Originally by: Ogdru Jahad having gangs of around 15+ sit in empire gates waiting for targets to come along aint pvp.. But gangs of 45 with multiple large bubbles in 0.0 is? I fail to see the difference. The game revolves around certain choke points that cause ships to congregate. Gates and Stations being the primary ones. Where else are you going to find ships in space, either 0.0 or Empire?
Why'dyou HitMe Minmatar Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:45:00 - [54] Well I have lived in 0.0, I hate the crap that comes from owning and protecting space. Now I have lots of targets and concord holds my home space for me. I dont get many hours logged in now days but the ones I have are pure fun no crap. I even laugh at the "I am so ubar, you ran from my shuttle" speewed from the targets that dont notice the other 49 wars we have going. LMAO, I guess some people have a highened self importance, to think they are the only ones, lol.
Caia	Posted - 2007.02.28 07:49:00 - [55] Who said Empire has to be safe? Everyone knows the rules, if they don't like it they are free to find an NPC corp. I've lost 3 ships to them so far, and managed to help take out a Mega of theirs. What people don't seem to get is that they are terribly disorganized. Its usually 2 or 3 pilots in a system camping a station. If you round up 5 or 6 pilots to go attack them, they run. Its not like the whole alliance is bearing down on any one section of space. They are pretty easy to avoid or force out should you need to do either. Its definetly made Empire a lot more entertaining.
Ogdru Jahad Amarr Golden Fury Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.28 20:40:00 - [56] Originally by: Ragornok Edited by: Ragornok on 28/02/2007 03:19:31 Edited by: Ragornok on 28/02/2007 03:19:07 Originally by: Ogdru Jahad having gangs of around 15+ sit in empire gates waiting for targets to come along aint pvp.. But gangs of 45 with multiple large bubbles in 0.0 is? I fail to see the difference. The game revolves around certain choke points that cause ships to congregate. Gates and Stations being the primary ones. Where else are you going to find ships in space, either 0.0 or Empire? I prefer not to gate camp to be honest... I very much enjoy hunting someone down and blasting them to hell and back or having it done to me. - .
Saibotek	Posted - 2007.03.06 02:57:00 - [57] I think it sucks. You want PvP go lowsec and take on those that want to do it. There are some of us that are content to play in highsec and don't want to be bothered with loss that is incurred. Some of us actually enjoy missioning, mining, and production. This is supposed to be an escape from real life. If I want grief, the wife is in the next room. Short of it all Privateers gains a kill and loose a target as i move off to a corp not in an alliance. Meanwhile a good corp looses a good miner. ****off Asshats
Aille Pluthrak Caldari Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 05:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Saibotek Some of us actually enjoy missioning, mining, and production. This is supposed to be an escape from real life. If I want grief, the wife is in the next room. Short of it all Privateers gains a kill and loose a target as i move off to a corp not in an alliance. Meanwhile a good corp looses a good miner. ****off Asshats But the Privateers will always have targets. And I am pretty sure that unless you go into an NPC corp you will become a target sometime in the future. Besides the Privateers are the least of your worries. Even the DEVs want to push people into doing PvP. Embace it, it's not that bad. The only time I had the shakes was my first PvP battle. Took me five minutes to stop shaking. All you got to do is find a nice group of 4 to 5 people who kind of know what they are doing. Then go hunting for the Privateers and give em a what for. To bad about the Myrmidon. Nice ship. I've lost one myself. Nice armor tank. I like em. Next time when in structure and all looks lost either eject or select somewhere to warp to and hit that button a lot. You will never loose an egg that way. ---------------------- Boom goes the ship! Squish goes the pilot!
Hamatitio Caldari Fate.	Posted - 2007.03.06 08:56:00 - [59] I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say at least 75% of the people I have killed have logged off to save their pod. /me strokes recon probe launcher. 80% of those have died a horrific logged off death 50% of my posts get ISDokkened :(
H Zub Captain Morgan Society Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 11:55:00 - [60] Since privateers is made up of a large group of independent corporations not connected to eachother. You simply get all sorts of players.



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