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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4270
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Posted - 2016.06.09 10:31:27 -
[1] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Amarr acts of agression against Minmatar are well known. But they happened about 700-800 years ago, and I don't think there is any Amarr from that time is still alive to be accounted for it.
Modern Amarr Empire doesn't conduct acts of aggression. Their current doctrine allows enslaving of only criminals and prisoners of war. (There was though an act of agression that I greatly respect, but it was done not by the Empire itself, but by one of the Heirs without approval and it has ended in the failure, unfortunately.)
I've personally intervened in and destroyed Amarrian slave-taking operations all over New Eden. Not that you're likely to care.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4273
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Posted - 2016.06.09 16:55:41 -
[2] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:She probably feels that they are justified in those operations. Also, thank you for your intervention in those matters.
You mean she'll invent some weak justification so that she can continue to pretend she's never wrong about anything.
As for intervening...
Look, slavery in the Empire is a problem that affects all of us. I appreciate that the Minmatar have the most immediate and raw grievance, but there are Caldari slaves in the Empire, and you can bet your battleship we're on the list to be Reclaimed. Toward the end of the list, perhaps, but still very much on it.
It's in the Caldari people's long-term interests therefore to see an end to slavery. We didn't sacrifice so much to secure our right to exist independent of the Federation only to be gobbled up by the Reclaiming some centuries later.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4276
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Posted - 2016.06.10 00:17:02 -
[3] - Quote
A statement that will make consequentialists everywhere go red in the face...
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4278
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Posted - 2016.06.10 11:45:49 -
[4] - Quote
Forgive me, but I disagree: those of us lucky enough to have been free citizens our whole lives are still perfectly capable of having our opinions on the subject.
First-hand experience is not the only valid form of education, and while I may not know what being sold at auction feels like, I'm damn well empathic enough to imagine myself in that situation and have an intuition of what I would feel.
This is a skill common to all well-adjusted people.
Pilot Isu's thoughts might arguably be ignorant, inaccurate and fallacious, but if they are then that's not automatically a function of his having never been a slave. I'VE never been a slave either, and yet I note that nobody's telling ME to sit down and shut up when I speak out in opposition to slavery.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4279
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Posted - 2016.06.10 14:40:20 -
[5] - Quote
Anataine Deva wrote:You can imagine and empathize whatever you want but I'm sure if I break your arm, in reality it will hurt much more than in your imagination.
Sure. But I can still imagine enough to know that breaking my arm is something I'd rather not do.
I don't need to grok the full emotional impact of a situation in order to make informed decisions based on my anticipation of that impact.
Besides, there are male obstetricians and gynecologists, and we can mathematically model what falling into a black hole will do to a person without actually parking near one and throwing some poor test subject out the airlock. You don't have to be homosexual to campaign for gay rights, and you don't have to have been a slave to value freedom.
Sneering about "the opinions of children" only serves to alienate your allies.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4280
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Posted - 2016.06.10 15:30:21 -
[6] - Quote
Claudia Osyn wrote:Stitcher wrote: Sneering about "the opinions of children" only serves to alienate your allies.
and may be somewhat childish in itself.
Indeed.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4289
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Posted - 2016.06.10 17:47:58 -
[7] - Quote
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:Stitcher wrote:I've never experienced slavery myself? Fine, fair enough. Which of the thousands of possible slavery experiences are we discussing here? The unacceptable kind. I'll leave it to you to figure out where you draw the line. I've drawn mine.
For my money the line is:
Stitcher wrote:"Slave" after all, in the Empire is a spectrum that can encompass at one end some poor bastard mining salt with their fingernails and being lashed seven ways to half-dead in lieu of breakfast, and at the other end a tutor educating a new generation of Heirs in etiquette and diplomacy, who dines and lives just as well as the masters of the Holding.
The latter of these people can become the former on the whim of their Holder at any time and without good reason. Yes we can hear arguments about how it would be a very stupid Holder who did such a thing and whatever, but the point is that the institution of slavery gives one human far too much unaccountable power over another. It's a system that inherently doesn't allow for merit.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4292
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Posted - 2016.06.10 18:31:05 -
[8] - Quote
bardghost Isu wrote:The caldari one is a weird one to talk about. You serve a company and lose all honour and respect if you disavow it, But it is so enshrined in the culture and attitudes of the people that it is the way of life, And it has made them a very powerful people, They are one of the smallest empires but are capable of holding their own against bigger entities.
Caldari citizens have legal rights and entitlements, and a contract with the corporation. You're not a serf to them, you've entered into an agreement to work, and to be fairly and properly rewarded and recognized for that work in the context of your peers and competitors.
Caldari citizens own property, may purchase shares (or more commonly enter into a shareholding cartel) so as to become politically and executively enfranchised. Caldari citizens, on average, in fact have the highest standard of living in New Eden, and certainly enjoy better health.
We're notorious for gambling away our income, and in fact per-capita spending on recreation and luxuries is high enough to serve as the backbone of one of the megacorps.
So in short, Caldari have legal rights and freedoms, social mobility, disposable income and agency in our life decisions.
Doesn't sound much like slavery to me...
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
4293
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Posted - 2016.06.11 09:15:37 -
[9] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:Why is there the concern about free people arguing about slaves? Because from the perspective of a slave it is yet one more person trying to use us. The free people who engage in these discussions have a tendency to treat slaves as a cause for their own benefit, using the emancipation or support or comparison to them as a way to prove to others of their own "noble character" (or ignoble, as in the case of those who talk about killing slaves to make themselves seem so evil and ruthless), or as a subject on whom or through to push their own ideological beliefs ("everyone is a slave, really!" or "freedom!" or, yes, "amarr victor"). You see that here, with this thread, someone making a big showing about their releasing of their slaves in the hopes of convincing people (or even convincing himself) of the rightness of his new beliefs. Slaves are pawns. When a free person is speaking to or about us, we expect that it is because they want something from us, because they have a need of us. Actually helping us for our own benefit? Really caring? That is what is hard to believe. Other slaves, then, become the only ones we feel can speak with a level of real empathy and understanding. Of course that is also not entirely true, as slaves use each other as much as free people do..
Thank you for raising my consciousness on this.
AKA Hambone
Author of The Deathworlders
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