| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mon Palae
   |
Posted - 2003.12.17 22:23:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 17/12/2003 22:28:58
First off I'd like to give credit for the snappy title to Shock who came up with it in another thread over in GD. I thought it was too good to leave be so there it is.
As a Blackbird pilot I noticed some alarming changes in my ship post-Castor. I knew some changes were coming and while I can't say I was thrilled about them I understood their need and was ok with it (changes specifically to the Blackbird and not just the nerfs in general...although those compound what happened to the Blackbird).
In short, the Blackbird has been nerfed to within an inch of its life if it isn't terminal already. While play balance is important I cannot believe it was the Dev's intentions to nerf a ship out of existence. I know it is common for people to moan about a favorite whatever of theirs getting hit by the nerf bat but I think I can make an actual factual (such as it is considering this is all make-believe) case for the over-nerf of the Blackbird.
Check the stats on Caldari cruisers post-Castor and you will find some interesting results:
Moa: 101,000 m3 (volume); 13,000,000 Kg (mass)
Blackbird: 96,000 m3 (volume); 14,000,000 Kg (mass)
Notice anything wrong with that picture? The Moa is a bigger ship yet weighs less than the Blackbird which means the Blackbird's maneuverability and acceleration are worse than the Moa's.
One might then suppose that perhaps while somewhat smaller the Blackbird is just crammed with heavier stuff. Let's see...
Moa Stats in relation to the Blackbird:
The Moa has (roughly)...
+20% more armor
+25% more shields
+23% more capacitor
+26% more structure
+Drone Bay (BB has none)
+More hi-slots (where presumably items heavier than med-slot items go)
+More slots overall
Still not convinced? Let's then try CCP's own descriptions for these ships (highlighting is mine)...
 Quote:
Moa
The Moa-class is almost exclusively used by the Caldari Navy, and only factions or persons in very good standing with the Caldari State can acquire one. The Moa was designed as an all-out combat ship, and its heavy armament allows the Moa to tackle almost anything that floats in space.
Blackbird
The Blackbird is a small high-tech cruiser newly employed by the Caldari Navy. What it lacks in armor strength it more than makes up with maneuverability and stealth. The Blackbird is not intended for head-on slugfests, but rather delicate tactical situations.
Unfortunately the Blackbird comes nowhere near meeting that description today. It truly has been relegated to uselessness. Fitting the ship now to overcome its shortcomings leaves little to no room for EW fittings. Even if a little EW could be crammed aboard now it would not be enough to merit a whole cruiser...better to have a different ship in that slot. The Blackbird likewise is not cut out for going toe-to-toe with other ships and surviving long. If anyone can point out a decent use for the Blackbird now I for one would love to hear it.
I think in balance it is easily shown that the Blackbird got hit far too hard. I won't threaten to quit playing EVE because of this as I enjoy it too much and generally feel the Castor Patch was a step in the right direction. Nevertheless if the Blackbird isn't brought back somewhat into trim with the game I absolutely will dump it. I doubt anyone cares much what I do with my Blackbird but consider that the next nerf may hit you. I worked long and hard for that cruiser and it is my first one (well third now since I lost two to dumb mistakes but never to combat I sought out). I am rather fond of the ugly bird and I'll miss it more than I probably should for a computer generated illusion. Hence my hope that she might be saved an ignominious recycle at the refinery.
|
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 22:32:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ruffles on 17/12/2003 22:44:27
I am sorry, I agree and haven't had a chance to fly my Blackbird yet this patch.
I think you are spot on, as a lighter cruiser as it states and we all know it is, it should be a reduced mass when compared to both the Caracal and Moa. Period.
|
voogru
|
Posted - 2003.12.17 22:48:00 -
[3]
Quote:
Moa: 101,000 m3 (volume); 13,000,000 Kg (mass)
Blackbird: 96,000 m3 (volume); 14,000,000 Kg (mass)
Prolly what would make more sense, is the BB having around, 7,000,000 - 9,000,000KG rather than 14 mil.
I hope they fix this, cause I just invested into an original bb blueprint
-------
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 827.3 damage. |
Steven Gould
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 00:23:00 -
[4]
All of the above seems true unfortunately :( The thing that is even worse is that agilty of the ship is affected as well, so not only does it cost more cap to warp due to larger mass, you also get stuck in station, behind roids, etc whenever you have to make a turn, even with 2 hull conversion for 12.5% agil each. While before my BB was able to turn on a dime.
All that i could live with though if it weren't combined with the new longer travel times. not only do you get stuck everywhere but you have to go read a book while travelling or be bored out of your mind :(.
I dont even go sell stuff in yulai anymore because it means extra travel. DUH
the 3 au/sec in warp does not compensate for this at all.
Quote:
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
It is by the beans of java that thoughts aquire speed,
the hands aquire shaking,
the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 01:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 18/12/2003 01:16:01
Quote:
...not only does it cost more cap to warp due to larger mass...
The 3 AU boost is a LONG way from covering the shortfall. The cap situation vs. mass is so bad now that I have a max warp distance equivalent to when I was a n00b in an Imicus frig. Prior to patch I could make the long jump across the Oipo system in 1 go. It now takes me 4 jumps (you'll know what I'm talking about if you've ever made that hike...around a 250au warp). Maybe the BB should have been nerfed down but c'mon...this is too much. What's worse is that 30-40au warps aren't all that uncommon. If I am going into battle I will arrive at the scene with half my cap gone. If I use ABs to compensate for the ship's now hideously low speed I cream my cap yet further. In the end I have nothing left for battle. If I put cap boosters on plus the ABs I won't have enough slots left for any EW that would be effective. Need three slots minimum for jammers so forget those and I'm so slow I won't be able to close range to use web or scramblers. Even if I get close I won't have the cap to use them. Considering the BB is a poor fighter in a slugfest it is a bad place to be and it now takes the thing 15 seconds or so to jump into warp so getting away if things go bad is not likely.
In short...the BB is now essentially worthless. Stinks for agent missions as it is too slow. Stinks in battle with little offensive punch and stinks for EW. What's left?
|
Frakture
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 01:25:00 -
[6]
Aw crap, My Maller died and now I'm stuck with a once great pvp'r ship.....CCP fix this.
|
Naal Morno
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 01:37:00 -
[7]
If we were flying these ships on earth I would say MOA has drone bay filled with hydrogen...
ROFL.
Your Heavy Neutron Blaster II perfectly strikes Serpentis Chief Sentinel, wrecking for 660.4 damage.
|
Clark Tarris
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 02:10:00 -
[8]
Yeah after the last patch it's a completely different game. All the strategies that we used to use are no longer applicable. They keep making it harder and harder to earn anything so like you all my hard work has been severely reduced. Added to that the pirates I used to be able to kill by the hundreds wiped out my Megathron in a matter of minutes. 10 against 1 and extremely more powerful doesn't seem fair odds, although I did take 4 of them with me.
I don't know how much longer I'm going to play either. IĈm getting very tired of investing MANY MANY hours in this game and having it yanked away.
|
Luminara Jedrick
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 02:14:00 -
[9]
fix the bb
PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPLLLLLLEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSEEEEEEE
Im not a pirate, I just like to hurt people |
The End
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 02:25:00 -
[10]
I bought a BB a few hours before patch and i was flying all over the place.. it was great
then disastor hit....
i patched it.
now my once nice blackbird is now a Flying Veldsapr roid..
it will now sit in my hanger collecting dust...
just another effect of the disastor known as castor
|
Jael Markinsen
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 02:53:00 -
[11]
Yes, Well,I have a few of these fine ships scattered around the various parts of the Eve universe. And, while I agree the Mass to volume ratio could use an adjustment, for example, decrease the mass a few million kg's to say 11 or 12, I do remember hearing about the blackbird as being "bugged" in terms of its agility. And seems like they have "fixed" the bug. The problem is, I think, we have all gotten spoiled with how this ship handled before castor patch and would like to see it like that again. With placing an MWD on one of these before castor, you had a VERY fast and VERY agile little cuiser for travel and whatnot.
|
Intoccabile
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 07:27:00 -
[12]
It doesn't get much better with the Scorp either, my Scorp has more mass than my Apoc does. Now isn't that cute?
|
Archemedes
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 07:50:00 -
[13]
Doesn't the Blackbird still have 6 mid slots? So you're slower now... that doesn't effect EW. You can still jam a battleship can't you? You can still equip 5 jammers (1 of each race and 1 multispec) or 4 sensor dampeners. You just need something fast to run up and web the target... like a frigate. Think about it... your Blackbird starts locking on as a frigate moves up and webs + scrambles the target. You lock on and jam their targeting before they can kill the frigate, and then your battleship or combat cruisers move in and take over the webbing before the frigate runs out of cap.
Your Blackbird is now a slow EW platform instead of a fast one. Considering the MWD nerfs you don't need to be as fast anyway... and you can still mount a MWD if you really want speed.
|
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 08:33:00 -
[14]
I believe the changes top scorp and BB were meant as a way to balance them somwhat since they have given Caldari too much of an advantage. Both were the ship of choice for Pvp in their respective class before patch.
Now they are just one of the possible choices, each with their strenghts and weaknesses.
I dont have one tbh, so i cant really say if they were overnerfed or not. Just that they needed a nerf badly before castor.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Zyrla Bladestorm
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 09:29:00 -
[15]
the word as I hear it on the agility was that it was previously bugged to "perfect" as the mammoth and other minnie indys (and badger II?) once were .. and has now been "fixed" in the same manner (it now handles like a cruiser should ?)
the mass does look odd .. but again I'm pretty sure its an attempt at balancing all those mid slots without actually removing them
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
|
Ruffles
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 11:12:00 -
[16]
The only reason med slots are an advantage, is more items in med slots are useful in the pvp sense.
If they did mixed-option items, much like they do Tracking Computers (med item) and other Tracking mods (Low Items) for other equipment, you might see a variety.
Obviously amarr ships have a great advantage for low slots, caldari ships don't. Caldari ships have great med slots, amarr ships don't.
So, provide different options: Some items in both Low and Med slot varieties, but different values obviously. Thus you may end up with people choosing other ships because they can fit them to suit themselves perhaps a little better then otherwise they could.
Just some thoughts, but they really shouldn't on one hand make a smaller, lower in the lines cruiser, be heavier and slower then the equivalents just due to its popularity in a pvp context. Not everyone is a PvP'r don't forget, but it also still just doesn't make sense compared to its brethren.
|
Steelrat diGriz
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 11:55:00 -
[17]
Sadly I have to agree Mon Palae, even though I have had better ships, the blackbird have remained the workhorse for me. That until now.
Even had to rip off one named 250 mm hybrid to make it possible for me to add the new 10 MW microwarp.
Only wonder how one should be able to continue with the agent missions now, the blackbird was a compromise ship which I could afford to loose - yet providing me with a bit of weaponry to fight back if the worst happened.
Agent missions with the blakbird is no more, way too many brings be past pirate camped systems.
And no, this patch no improvement in dodging pirates, the gate camper have all advantages now.
Please either crank up the energy on our trusted blackies until we have tech 2 cruisers - which I was waiting for in the first place.
Or provide us with one alternative - no the Moa isnt one. Its too expensive to use in agent missions - risking loss several times a day.
Steelrat
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 13:47:00 -
[18]
Quote:
Doesn't the Blackbird still have 6 mid slots? So you're slower now... that doesn't effect EW. You can still jam a battleship can't you? You can still equip 5 jammers (1 of each race and 1 multispec) or 4 sensor dampeners. You just need something fast to run up and web the target... like a frigate. Think about it... your Blackbird starts locking on as a frigate moves up and webs + scrambles the target. You lock on and jam their targeting before they can kill the frigate, and then your battleship or combat cruisers move in and take over the webbing before the frigate runs out of cap.
Your Blackbird is now a slow EW platform instead of a fast one. Considering the MWD nerfs you don't need to be as fast anyway... and you can still mount a MWD if you really want speed.
Don't forget that Warp Stabs are now low slot items so scrambling ships will now be more difficult and by your example will likely take more than one frigate to do the job. Further, you missed the point I made about the cap being utterly reduced to crap on a mere medium warp into battle such that the BB will have a hard time hanging in a battle for any length of time after arrival.
This is all beside the point though. I agree and accept that the Blackbird needed to be toned down but they have clearly toned down the ship too far. The Blackbird, by CCP's own definition, is supposed to be a small, maneuverable cruiser. They have made it into statistically the heaviest of ALL Caldari cruisers. It's supposed to be the lightest. Apart from CCP's written description the stats don't bear out this weight and subsequent maneuverability hit.
I expected to return to a slower ship but this goes too far and that's not just from personal opinion but from absolutley everything CCP itself has to say about the Blackbird statistically and stated intention for the ship.
|
KrapYl
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 14:22:00 -
[19]
well, if u want speed / accel, go minmatar... they also have a pretty decsent CAP/shield/armor/powercore/cpu... not the best, but an over avarege ships...
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 15:23:00 -
[20]
Quote:
well, if u want speed / accel, go minmatar... they also have a pretty decsent CAP/shield/armor/powercore/cpu... not the best, but an over avarege ships...
The point is not to say the Blackbird should be the fastest cruiser out there (although by rights it should be or at least high on the list). The point is that the Blackbird is now among the slowest of cruisers which I think I have show is clearly wrong based on the concept of the ship in the first place. Certainly its stats are absurd in relation to other Caldari cruisers to the point that there is no reason to fly one any longer.
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 15:26:00 -
[21]
I also might add that CCP has been seriously kickinig around the idea of nerfing EW such that (for instance) jammers would have a range like any weapon. Warp Stabs going to low slots is already a tiny-nerf towards EW. Given the current state of the Blackbird such a move would truly be the absolute end of the Blackbird even if you think it isn't already dead as a viable ship worth flying.
|
drunkenmaster
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 15:34:00 -
[22]
Most of the people in this thread that are complaining are non-caldari.
Don't you get the feeling something is unbalanced if people from all races are flying it, for just about everything but hauling and mining? I used mine for agent missions, because nothing could match it for speed. That's just plain wrong.
The patch hasn't made much difference to me, tbh. The instant accel/decel no longer happend, and my top speed has halved. But it is still the best cruiser for EW. And I *will* still fly it.
If you want a faster ship, then get a ship that was designed for speed.
if you want a harder ship, get one that is designed for fighting.
if you want more cargo, get one that is designed for taking large cargo.
Just don't expect 1 lvl 2 cruiser do all of the above, or to outperform 2/3rds of the competition like it used to.
.
|
Blueblooded
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 15:46:00 -
[23]
Adapt or die!
or just quit playing...it's that simple.
ohh by the way...when you quit can I have your stuff? 
----------------------------------------
"The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 15:56:00 -
[24]
Quote:
If you want a faster ship, then get a ship that was designed for speed.
if you want a harder ship, get one that is designed for fighting.
if you want more cargo, get one that is designed for taking large cargo.
Just don't expect 1 lvl 2 cruiser do all of the above, or to outperform 2/3rds of the competition like it used to.
You need to read the initial specifications for the Blackbird again. It WAS designed for speed and maneuverability. Just read CCP's own description of the ship to see that. As for fighting the BB was not designed for that and it never was good at that...even pre-patch. Cargo hauling? Maybe the BB was a smidge better than some cruisers at this due to its speed but it never rivaled an indie for hauling. And with three turrets it was never a good miner.
As for people of other races flying ships that don't belong to their race well...what can you say. In some respect it would be interesting if there were restrictions but likely you'd find everyone gravitating to one race deemed to haev the best choice of ships. Or one race might be all PvP and one race all merchants and so on. I always figured CCP wanted people to have freedom to choose rather than be locked into one groove from the get-go.
|
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 18:22:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mon Palae on 18/12/2003 19:35:16
Quote:
Adapt or die!
or just quit playing...it's that simple.
ohh by the way...when you quit can I have your stuff?
Maybe for people like I suspect you are who have multiple cruisers scattered around the galaxy and perhaps a battleship or three and can fly most anything you like "adapt" is a simple matter. But consider way back to when you were a n00b and you worked your butt off to get into a cruiser and 2 weeks later the thing is utterly nerfed to the point of complete uselessness. Will I adapt? Sure. But where adapting for you amounts to going out to buy a new whatever you want adapting for me means another week or two of training just to get back to where I was not to mention saving the money for a new cruiser.
Besides, are you suggesting the Blackbird as it stands now is appropriately set in its statistics and performance envelope? Do you think it is wrong to try to bring to light a perceived imbalance? If a Dev or anyone can point to how the Blackbird is as it should be today beyond "just cuz" I'd love to hear it. So far I have not seen anyone able to support the 'new' Blackbird as it is. The closest anyone can come is to say it needed some balancing and I agree. I just think it went too far.
|
Vager
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 18:51:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Vager on 18/12/2003 18:53:06
Don't expect any change soon, and as for what the bb should be and what it is, CCP aren't renowned for making things like the print says they should be. Since when are the races like they are meant to be in the back history, and since when do the history or news items effect anything in the game (not including the big lag events). Gally are suposed to be EW kings but when was the last time that was the case, not since I've been playing, how often do Min players get to release slaves, never in my experience, and so on. I admit I miss my old bb doing 360 on a pin head at 3km/s, but I don't expect ccp to change anything just because it is said to be like that in the write up. Unfourtunately this will continue to be the case until ccp get their nerf efficiency and advanced nerfing lvl5 trained.
|
Fartracker
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 19:07:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Fartracker on 18/12/2003 19:12:36
Ok, I've listened to the dingbat squad long enough. Here's a little education.
Mass /= Volume
Get it out of your heads.
A ship could weigh 100Kt and have a volume of 1mil Kt. WHY. Look at Naval ships of Earth.
A 50 Ktonne cruiser is made of so much metal, it should sink. BUT, because its volume (the ships shape/hull) displaces so much water, it floats.
Space ships are the same. The displacement (volume) can (and usually is) different from its mass.
What you should be ragging about, is for the BB's weight to be reduced. Not about how BIG it is compared to another ship.
Eat My Shorts! |
Mon Palae
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 19:28:00 -
[28]
Quote:
What you should be ragging about, is for the BB's weight to be reduced. Not about how BIG it is compared to another ship.
That's exactly what I am ragging about. However, elsewhere while discussing this people were nitpicking and suggesting maybe it is a bigger ship and thus should be heavier. So, I included physical size and mass. Physical size is smaller, mass is higher and it IS the mass I am on about as that is what is affecting the performance in this case. In theory volume can affect it as well. A lighter ship may have worse performance characteristics due to its overall shape and size. However, I do not think the game accounts for shape and physical size otherwise there are many retarded designs in the game that while looking interesting are about the last way you'd actually want to design a ship from a physics/movement standpoint.
Additionally some might say that while physically smaller the BB just might be loaded with heavier stuff which is why I point out that the Moa in every sense should be the heavier ship. It's bigger and loaded with what logic would say is heavier stuff: more armor, more structural strength, stronger shields (suggesting correspondingly bigger equipment to generate those shields) and so on.
The point a few posts up about CCP not really abiding by what they write in the backstory or documentation is well taken. Nevertheless, regardless of the backstory/written descriptions, the Blackbird STILL makes utterly no sense in its current configuration in relation to the other ships in the game based on the in game specifications.
Bottom line is the ship is too heavy by half at least.
|
yoni
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 23:25:00 -
[29]
yep, I used the blackbird as my curier ship for speed, agility and being pretty sure no one can warp scramble me with enough warp core stabilizers installed.
Now the ship is a stinker.
Doesn't CCP get the fact that agility and speed = fun for us? so if something needs to be balanced, they should do it by making other ships better instead of reducing quality of something we already own and worked hard to get.
|
Bobby Wilson
|
Posted - 2003.12.18 23:41:00 -
[30]
The Blackbird was off by a whole digit in it's mass. The reason it handled like a frigate was that is weighed as much as one!
Granted it has been over-nerfed, and from the numbers that is obvious. But even if it was 75% of the mass of the Moa, it'd still suck for acceleration and manoverability compared to pre-patch. But for combat it is still a good ship. It simply doesn't handle like a Griffin anymore.
You want a superfast ship, just switch to a lvl 2 or 3 frigate with MWD.
You want a good ECM *cruiser*, I defy you to find a better ECM cruiser in the game.
I'm still going to have the BB as a back-up ECM boat to my Scorp. But for travel, I'm trying to decide between a Vigil and a Breacher.
BW
Originally by: Selim
Cool, congrats.
Oh, stupid idea by the way.
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |