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Zayden Bryant
GermanDungeonPorn
4
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Posted - 2016.07.29 19:48:27 -
[61] - Quote
Bing Bangboom wrote:
What I'm doing is seeing if the claims that the large number of skiffs I'm seeing is a direct result of my, or other New Order Agents, presence in our habitual haunts. My evidence is anecdotal but I really did travel to multiple ice systems across highsec last night. I did see a lone Retriever in one system and two in another. So it wasn't completely skiffs. But they WAY outnumber the alternatives. Huge skiff fleets stripping the ice fields.
There is your problem. Ice fields are easy to locate, the systems are static, the belts are advertised, and the timers are easy to track. Of course the people there will be cautious.
But in ore belts, where you have to hunt through the system to find targets, you will often find every type of mining ship (except the specialized T2 frigs)
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Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
28
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Posted - 2016.07.30 01:35:55 -
[62] - Quote
When barge tiericide was implemented in 2012 the intent of the "self defense" Procurer was to have battleship-level EHP. So I doubt its tank will be nerfed.
I am hoping the Procurer gets a third low (it should have similar yield to Retriever) I am hoping the Covetor gets increased ore hold (to be similar to the Procurer)
I think Strip Miners will take a turret hardpoint and be only fittable on Mining Barges. Then one or more of the hulls will get a utility high. Especially Procurer but maybe Retriever too.
I think the Exhumers should stay as beefed up versions of the tech 1 hulls, with an added twist: each can fit a fleet boost module to its utility high that gives all fleet members on-grid a bonus in its specialty: Mack gives bonus to ore hold, Hulk gives bonus to yield, Procurer gives bonus to shield HP.
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Arianne Kass
Garoun Long-Term Capital Management
0
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Posted - 2016.07.30 08:35:23 -
[63] - Quote
Procurer/Skiff with a utility highslot for a cyno: the dream of baiters and counter-baiters across EVE (except Empire, but who cares about them). And anything that leads to more pew is a good thing(tm). |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
13
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Posted - 2016.07.30 18:34:45 -
[64] - Quote
Bing Bangboom wrote:My point is that the trinity of mining ships is broken and I THINK CCP knows it and will do something to rebalance the situation. There isn't really a trinity of Mining Ships.
There's the Hulk, which is for organised Fleet Mining Operations and is *excellent* at its role.
Then there's the Skiff, which has the tank to support Solo Mining - be that in NullSec vs NPC rats or HighSec vs player rats.
The Mackinaw simply doesn't have a role. The job it was intended to do, doesn't exist because of people like you.
In my view - leave the Hulk as it is, or maybe with a reduction in Mining Crystal damage, and merge the Skiff and Mackinaw into one ship - tanky with a large Ore Hold. The idea that the Mackinaw is useful for mining solo is a dead one, because of people like you who make HighSec belts more deadly than NullSec ones.
Traedar wrote:When barge tiericide was implemented in 2012 the intent of the "self defense" Procurer was to have battleship-level EHP. So I doubt its tank will be nerfed.
I am hoping the Procurer gets a third low (it should have similar yield to Retriever) I am hoping the Covetor gets increased ore hold (to be similar to the Procurer)
I think Strip Miners will take a turret hardpoint and be only fittable on Mining Barges. Then one or more of the hulls will get a utility high. Especially Procurer but maybe Retriever too.
The Covetor & Hulk don't really need extra Ore Hold. It's irrelevant when they are used for their real purpose - fleet mining while sitting next to a Freight Container or a ship with a Fleet Hanger that they can dump into.
I quite like the idea of a utility high on a Procurer, but I will warn you now that people will Spider Tank the hell out of that. |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
7069
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Posted - 2016.08.02 22:50:05 -
[65] - Quote
I'd rather have new mining ships to train for beyond exhumers instead of barges getting a rework. Bigger...better ships. |
Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
154
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Posted - 2016.08.14 20:35:17 -
[66] - Quote
So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already...
Until all are free...
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Wayne Donne
Royal Oaks Glen Oaks Oakwood Oaks Country Club All My Friends Are Ded
1
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Posted - 2016.08.15 01:17:10 -
[67] - Quote
Bing Bangboom wrote: I see nothing but Skiffs any more with the occasional Procurer. This is broken.
There is supposed to be a tradeoff which players use to balance their ship choices. In highsec mining there are only ignorant miners and Skiff miners.
I'd suggest a massive decrease in the built in tank of the Skiffs and Procurers with whatever CPU/slots/etc necessary to allow the miner to tank his ship back up to the battleship EHP they enjoy now. BUT their yield will be hammered.
Right now they get incredible tank, decent yield, and with a nearby station or Orca negiligible impact of a smaller ore hold.
Yes, yes. We caused this. I understand that. We broke highsec mining. Now its up to CCP to fix it.
Skiffs overpowered. Nerf Skiffs.
You realize how hard it is for anyone to take you seriously with your sig. |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
19
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Posted - 2016.08.15 09:37:09 -
[68] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already...
It's certainly a major change. If we assume that the focus of each Barge/Exhumer line remains the same and that the intention is that overall capabilities do not go down, then there will have to be a big boost to either yield or cycle time for the Hulk.
What's interesting to me now is this small Mining Command Ship. It's going to be quite difficult to justify this over just putting another Barge on Grid. |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
1046
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Posted - 2016.08.15 10:44:14 -
[69] - Quote
Kalido Raddi wrote:Kueyen wrote:So, 2 strip miners for all 3 barges and all 3 exhumers... Interesting. Looking forward to more details soon, given that these changes are expected next month already... It's certainly a major change. If we assume that the focus of each Barge/Exhumer line remains the same and that the intention is that overall capabilities do not go down, then there will have to be a big boost to either yield or cycle time for the Hulk. What's interesting to me now is this small Mining Command Ship. It's going to be quite difficult to justify this over just putting another Barge on Grid.
The way things seem to be going... the mining command ship will likely have mining capabilities itself... like the Rorqual (not as "good" obviously)
No Worries
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Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
19
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Posted - 2016.08.15 11:06:18 -
[70] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:The way things seem to be going... the mining command ship will likely have mining capabilities itself... like the Rorqual (not as "good" obviously) That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. If it's a Drone Boat then that would also fit with the way the ORE lineup seems to be going. |
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
72
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Posted - 2016.08.15 11:33:11 -
[71] - Quote
personal preference for me .. and speaking for myself only...
i would love to see a full line of miners... that the mining / industry side of the game recieve as much attention as other aspects of the game
we currently have : T1/T2 mining frigates
T1/T2 mining barges/exhumers (i see these as cruiser or battlecruiser size)
i want to see battleship sized mining ships and expansion of command industrial ships
listed below are random thoughts and ideas:
-just like T2 command battlecruisers. if fit a certain way can fit more then 3 warfare links... some how expand the slots on orca to fit more then 3 warfare links / industrial links
or
-a fleet mining command ship that provides boosts. has drones and/or guns and provides fleet defense, remote repair capabilities for the fleet, but does not have a cargo bay much to speak of... would have significantly faster target lock capabilities (lock targets about as fast as the skiff can lock targets).. basicaly i wanna see orca become something more then a 2nd or 3rd account ship that just sits there and sucks in cans
how we go about this, i have no clue, something like a Nestor, with drones and remote repair capabilities and fit industrial command links and tracktor beams with realy fast lock on time to lock and kill belt rats (damned orca takes forever to lock those targets) ... make the command links some how more interactive ... im just throwing out crazy ideas here
in short... make it more active, more interactive, interactive with the game environment and the members of the fleet
-combine the industrial fleet command ship role with the fleet defense role into one ship....
we all know that alot of players just do not want to sit around and play guard to a mining fleet |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
19
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Posted - 2016.08.15 12:36:16 -
[72] - Quote
Well if you watched the Twitch TV thing last night you'd know that On-Grid Boosting is going to feature scriptable boosting modules, so that's a thing to consider. |
Zerzzes Markarian
Andraste.
4
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Posted - 2016.08.15 12:47:42 -
[73] - Quote
Bing Bangboom wrote: If CCP still wants Eve to be an interactive game of player versus player, then skiffs MUST explode more. That's what I continue to expect even if its taken far too long.
First, Eve is not a pure PVP game. And if they must explode more, just bring a bigger ship. The Skiff costs almost 200M ISK. Why should it explode when you bring only cheap ****? Otherwise, just search a bit more. If you look outside ice belts, you will find plenty of non-Skiff mining ships. |
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
72
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Posted - 2016.08.15 12:55:58 -
[74] - Quote
i totaly missed the twitch TV thing
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
72
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Posted - 2016.08.15 13:05:28 -
[75] - Quote
Bing Bangboom wrote:
I little believe that CCP will read my well thought out arguments for a skiff nerf and decide, based on that, that mining ships with battleship tanks are unbalanced. If skiffs are changed to be less tanky out of the box, or if their yield takes a tweak downward, it will be because of the decisions of hundreds of highsec miners who have, once again, decided to remove themselves from interaction with other players. If CCP still wants Eve to be an interactive game of player versus player, then skiffs MUST explode more. That's what I continue to expect even if its taken far too long.
as it stands, i can mine useing all 3 ships
i choose to mine in a skiff. even if the area appears to be safe.. and sacrifice as much as 40% of potential income for safety.. so there is a solid tradeoff ... i trade profits for safety.... as do the vast majority of the other players
if they nurf the skiff as you suggest... what do you see the results being??
i see miners going back to doing what they did quite a few years ago... mine in a rokh or dominix... what are you going to do then when belts have fleets of battleships mineing astroids??
miners will almost always choose the safest method to mine... if you create a situation were the risk is not worth the reward... then the miners will not mine... this is bad for the economy.. very very bad ....
and im curious about your statement
Bing Bangboom wrote: "hundreds of highsec miners who have, once again, decided to remove themselves from interaction with other players"
i mine and interact with lots of other players and find the mining community to be rather interactive with each other in the areas i operate out of.. this statement of yours i find to be false |
Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
20
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Posted - 2016.08.15 13:20:06 -
[76] - Quote
Gunrunner1775 wrote:i totaly missed the twitch TV thing
https://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/83622730
They talk about Boosts & Rorqual from 55mins.
The Rorqual's SuperBoost looks nice, though |
ChromeStriker
Out of Focus Odin's Call
1046
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Posted - 2016.08.15 13:25:10 -
[77] - Quote
Kalido Raddi wrote:Gunrunner1775 wrote:i totaly missed the twitch TV thing
https://www.twitch.tv/ccp/v/83622730 They talk about Boosts & Rorqual from 55mins. The Rorqual's SuperBoost looks nice, though
Need the dev-post really... for example... what happens if theres more than one Rorq on field?? Rorq fleets?
No Worries
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Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
39
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Posted - 2016.08.15 15:23:49 -
[78] - Quote
From the art clips in o7, it looks like all barges/exhumers will get 2 turrets. So I assume lots of bonus tweets to balance laser counts. |
Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
154
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Posted - 2016.08.16 19:09:59 -
[79] - Quote
Details (provisional, of course) on Sisi, courtesy of Reddit:
Barges and exhumers: Traits, Attributes comparison Strip miners: Attribute comparison
If my math's correct, these are max-yield-fitted m³/s (rounded to nearest m³) of unboosted ships with all skills to V and with T2 modules and crystals, ordered by new yields ascending, as well as the per-cycle yields:
Procurer: 2079m³/s » 2079m³/s (unchanged) 1871m³/c » 1871m³/c (unchanged Skiff: 2666m³/s » 2666m³/s (unchanged) 2039m³/c » 2039m³/c (unchanged) Retriever: 2266m³/s » 2833m³/s (+25%) 2039m³/c » 2549m³/c (+25%) Covetor: 2807m³/s » 3022m³/s (+7.65%) 2245m³/c » 2039m³/c (-9.2%) Mackinaw: 2666m³/s » 3333m³/s (+25%) 2039m³/c » 2549m³/c (+25%) Hulk: 3302m³/s » 3555m³/s (+7.65%) 2245m³/c » 2039m³/c (-9.2%)
Minor fitting changes, no base stat changes, no other role bonus changes.
Interpretation: please come out of your skiffs, so the gankers have some content again!
Until all are free...
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Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
72
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Posted - 2016.08.16 19:25:09 -
[80] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:Details (provisional, of course) on Sisi, courtesy of Reddit: Barges and exhumers: Traits, Attributes comparisonStrip miners: Attribute comparisonIf my math's correct, these are max-yield-fitted m³/s (rounded to nearest m³) of unboosted ships with all skills to V and with T2 modules and crystals, ordered by new yields ascending, as well as the per-cycle yields: Procurer: 2079m³/s » 2079m³/s (unchanged) 1871m³/c » 1871m³/c (unchanged Skiff: 2666m³/s » 2666m³/s (unchanged) 2039m³/c » 2039m³/c (unchanged) Retriever: 2266m³/s » 2833m³/s (+25%) 2039m³/c » 2549m³/c (+25%) Covetor: 2807m³/s » 3022m³/s (+7.65%) 2245m³/c » 2039m³/c (-9.2%) Mackinaw: 2666m³/s » 3333m³/s (+25%) 2039m³/c » 2549m³/c (+25%) Hulk: 3302m³/s » 3555m³/s (+7.65%) 2245m³/c » 2039m³/c (-9.2%)
Minor fitting changes, no base stat changes, no other role bonus changes. Interpretation: please come out of your skiffs, so the gankers have some content again!
even if the hulk/mak/cov/ret mined 500% more then the skiff... i would still mine in a skiff.. as would everyone i have talked to so far (which is quite a few) ... that is by choice... |
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Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
20
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:36:39 -
[81] - Quote
So the headline figures are that the Mackinaw now mines 25% more than a Skiff, and the Hulk mines 40% more than a Skiff.
Still not enough to make the Mackinaw worthwhile; it doesn't have the tank to survive solo against either NullSec rats or HighSec gankers, and in any fleet situation the Hulk will out-mine it.
It might make the Retriever worthwhile, as it's cheap enough not to matter when it gets ganked. |
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2222
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:37:01 -
[82] - Quote
The strip miners got a boost as well and makes up that effective missing 50% of the -150%.on the Skiff, the second strip miner taking out 100% of course..
Base stats is that the T1 strip miner is up to 675m3 from 540m3 for the same time spent which is 180 seconds.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
156
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:37:49 -
[83] - Quote
And for ice harvesting, max-cycle-time-fitted (but: unrigged, since you probably need some CPU rigs to even fit the Ice Harvester Upgrade II's):
A) m³ per cycle:
All: 1000m³/c » 1000m³/c (unchanged) B) ice harvesters per ship
Procurer: 1 » 2 (+50%) Retriever: 2 » 2 (unchanged) Covetor: 3 » 2 (-33%) Skiff: 1 » 2 (+50%) Mackinaw: 2 » 2 (unchanged) Hulk: 3 » 2 (-33%) C) seconds per cycle
Procurer: 074.53s/c » 149.06s/c (+100% time = -50% m³/s) Retriever: 135.64s/c » 108.51s/c (-20% time = +25% m³/s) Covetor: 165.62s/c » 101.73s/c (-38.575% time = +62.8% m³/s) Skiff: 061.04s/c » 122.08s/c (+100% time = -50% m³/s) Mackinaw: 122.08s/c » 097.66s/c (-20% time = +25% m³/s) Hulk: 140.78s/c » 086.47s/c (-35.575% time = +62.8% m³/s) F) m³ per second (= A*B/C)
Procurer: 13.42m³/s » 13.42m³/s (unchanged) Retriever: 14.74m³/s » 18.43m³/s (+25%) Covetor: 18.11m³/s » 19.66m³/s (+8.53%) Skiff: 16.38m³/s » 16.38m³/s (unchanged) Mackinaw: 16.38m³/s » 20.48m³/s (+25%) Hulk: 21.31m³/s » 23.13m³/s (+8.53%)
Until all are free...
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Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
156
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:42:38 -
[84] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:The strip miners got a boost as well and makes up that effective missing 50% of the -150%.on the Skiff. The +25% strip miner yield and the -20% ice harvester cycle time that are apparent on Singularity were accounted for in these analyses.
Until all are free...
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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine Second-Dawn
2223
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:45:55 -
[85] - Quote
Kueyen wrote:Dracvlad wrote:The strip miners got a boost as well and makes up that effective missing 50% of the -150%.on the Skiff. The +25% strip miner yield and the -20% ice harvester cycle time that are apparent on Singularity were accounted for in these analyses.
I just compared my yield on my skiff and Traqulity and Sisi ore mining and got exactly the same yield with T1 strip miners, well 1m3 extra and the time taken was the same too. As I am not going to change from the Skiff that is all that matters to me.
When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
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Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
20
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:51:39 -
[86] - Quote
Interesting: Due to the extra low slot I *think* the Mackinaw might mine Ice ever so slightly faster.
I might have to retract my statement & say that the Mackinaw has an extremely marginal use during an ice rush. |
Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
156
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Posted - 2016.08.16 20:56:32 -
[87] - Quote
Dracvlad wrote:I just compared my yield on my skiff and Traqulity and Sisi ore mining and got exactly the same yield with T1 strip miners, well 1m3 extra and the time taken was the same too. As I am not going to change from the Skiff that is all that matters to me. Skiff: 13.99m³/s » 13.99m³/s (unchanged) Entirely consistent with my findings.
Kalido Raddi wrote:Interesting: Due to the extra low slot I *think* the Mackinaw might mine Ice ever so slightly faster than the Hulk.
I might have to retract my statement & say that the Mackinaw has an extremely marginal use during an ice rush. All low-slots were accounted for (and fitted with T2 Mining Laser Upgrade II's / Ice Harvester Upgrade II's), including the 3 low slots Mackinaws already have, and the 3 low slots that Covetors and Hulks are getting. The Procurer is the only one left with only 2 low slots.
Until all are free...
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Kalido Raddi
Echelon Research The Volition Cult
20
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:07:11 -
[88] - Quote
Ah right,. I missed that your figures included the modules. In that case I go back to my original statement; the Mackinaw is pointless.
The increased yield might look attractive to newer players though. I foresee hilarious lossmails. |
Lugues Slive
Diamond Light Industries
40
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:11:19 -
[89] - Quote
That's a sizeable increase in Retriever/mack yield with no hold increase, going to make them a bit worse in the solo miner arena. |
Kueyen
Mei-Ha's Light Fleet Coordination Coalition
156
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Posted - 2016.08.16 21:17:45 -
[90] - Quote
Ugh, forgot all the non-ship-related skill bonusses... Doesn't change the relative numbers, but the absolutes are still off. Will have to edit them again...
Until all are free...
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