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Was killing ASCN worth it?

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hired goon Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Gal Fed ASCN and BoB were long time friends. Much of this comes from the fact that CYVOK and BoB's leaders were friends with each other. It was quite suprising when BoB one day decided to attack ASCN as ASCN considered BoB to be somewhat friendly even if it was more unofficial than the relationship between other alliances. Now we see what happens to anyone who thinks BoB is their 'friend'. Not that I haven't been saying this for two years - that BoB is a blight on Eve that everyone (at the time IRON, G, PA, NBSI, F-E, FA, and Imperium) should have exterminated. People finally understand now, two years later. Also, lol @ Identifiable Characters Corporation. Epic loophole exploit! -omg-
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:52:00 - [32] I don't think the ASCN war has anything to do with the current situation. Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Coasterbrian Loss of Sanity	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:57:00 - [33] ASCN is dead. Debating the merits of killing it is pointless. ---------- Loss of Sanity.
Recco Mithril Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:58:00 - [34] Well my 2 cents.. + a cold beer If BoB had not made the assult on ASCN this WAR would be in another state then it is today. Dont forget that ASCN were friends with -LV- and that side. AXE would probly not have lost Impass to .-A-. [atleast not as fast as they did] But this is EvE.. you never know what tomorow brings. So it might have gone this way -> -LV- / -V- / AXE / ASCN / ISS and friends fighting in the south and south east vs. RED / GOONS / .-A-. / IAC / TFC and friends. BoB might have gone into that fight. But in my opinion they would have sat that one out. As they did before they attact ASCN. The North probly hadnt come down to Fountain and Querios. But who knows. Mithril Inc.com - Mithril Inc KB
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:13:00 - [35] As fun as "What If" games are, the fact is that BoB DID declare war on ASCN. I don't know if its just an imagination failure on my part, but I can't picture BoB NOT having declared war on ASCN when they did, without something drastic intervening. ASCN were making claims to being the most powerful group in EVE (a title that BoB tend to claim), were a practically embedded neighbour, and had recently unveiled a Titan in the most ePeen fashion possible. But playing along with the what if, we've got to assume BoB will have attacked someone else instead (I can't imagine BoB having been dormant for 6 months). That'd be either the North, RA Swarm or LV. LV have been in an ailing state for a fair while, so it's unlikely BoB would have attacked them. Attacking RA Swarm would have brought in the ASCN on their side or atleast actively neutral (since ASCN wouldn't have wanted to be sandwhich'd between two allies and on the wrong side), which would have probably have brought the North in on RA's side, to prevent a whitewash. If BoB had attacked the North, it would be less likely that RA would have got involved (having their hands full already), but without aid LV probably wouldn't have lasted much longer than they have now, leading to an extremely potent southern block in RA. So really the cause for the current situation harks back to way before the ASCN war, in all sorts of quantum butterfly style causes. Attacking ASCN really was the most sensible thing to do at the time, and not having done so probably would have led to an even worse (or at least as bad) situation. For BoB to have been ina better situation than they are right now, they would have to go back far further and change things far more profound than the ASCN war. And anyhow (/cynic mode on), the way ASCN melted away under BoB, how much use would they have been to anyone as an ally? (I didn't mean it! Don't hurt me karma!) --------
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:38:00 - [36] A dead ASCN under such a leadership as Cyvok is indeed worth nearly everything ingame in my eyes. Cmd Bitterlouse out. --------------------------------
laotse shangdi	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:40:00 - [37] ascn is dead leave it that way but in current thing it dont mather wat bob is doing it will alway,s stink 80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Watauga Minmatar Imperial Guardians	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:03:00 - [38] Personally, I think for the hardcore members of BoB, they win either way. They could win this war and defeat most of their major threats for the time being or lose the war and be free of running a major empire and run around shooting anything that moves. If BoB loses this war, the coalition will probably turn on itself and that is not necessarily a bad thing. There would be multiple wars all over 0.0 space and things would be much more interesting than they have been before this war.
Zae'dra Xanthe Fist of the Goat	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:06:00 - [39] I think they're happy as a clam that they took down ASCN. Now they have people flying from all parts of New Eden to come and attack them. They can fight in their own backyard! I honestly believe that Bob need a constant flow of action in order to sustain their esprit de corps. Currently, they have all the action they want! I can't imagine them not being any happier than they are right now. I doubt very much having ASCN supply their forces would make them any happier. If anything, they're better off. If ACSN were losing ships and fleet battles while aligned with Bob, Bob would be taking defeats by proxy. I think they'd rather stand on their own or with VERY trusted allies.
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Dragutinovic ASCN so called got killed cuz their leadership lied and what not to its membership . So when can we expect a declaration of war upon LV by BoB ? Im waiting . _____________ Im back !

Jotan Veer Wings of Turul Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:17:00 - [41] Cyvok once told me that if BOB died ASCN would have been the next in line following it to the grave (paraphrased). Time will tell if the reverse is true.
Mtthias Clemi Gallente Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:19:00 - [42] Erm... i dont know where people had been getting the idea that ASCN and BoB were friends from... they had been raiding each other for a while.. i remember it quite well actually, sending fast gangs into BoB space was quite common, unless the high command said different ASCN was the biggest closest and most worthy target at the time.. i see this as the only reason BoB attacked them. I have a corpse back in AZN's Love Shack!.. ill be wanting it back sometime soon is all i know -------------------------------------------- Stay away from my signature all of ya!!! IM WARNING YOU!! PEW PEW PEW PEW!
iceyreloaded Amarr ShaK Scientific	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. Speculating on what could have happened in the past if different actions were taken is a total waste of time. A fact however, is that Bob always want a fight. It's my belief they are perfectly happy with the current war and I hope it challenges them because the ASCN war certainly didn't.
ceo person	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. depends what time ur talkin about ;p a couple months before they started the pendulum crap? hell no ;p before then? no clue :D does it really matter though ;p?
Dao 2 Suicidal-Kushan-Pirates	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Dao 2 on 05/03/2007 03:00:53 Originally by: ceo person Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. depends what time ur talkin about ;p a couple months before they started the pendulum crap? hell no ;p before then? no clue :D does it really matter though ;p? son of a ***** alt :\| i gotta remeber to delete tonight ;;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:13:00 - [46] If BoB had never eliminated ASCN and ingested its territories, this war would not be fought. The ASCN war showed people very clearly how powerful BoB had become - in my opinion, the driving force behind such a large and well-coordinated 'preventive strike' strategy. It is however true that BoB is always out to seek their fun in battle. If they had not targeted ASCN, they would have targeted a different area or alliance. There would have been a war, yes; and after it had ended, there would have been a new war, which we would be fighting right about now. However, it would be in no shape or form this war, and the participants as well as ASCN's role and relation to BoB are sufficiently impossible to predict.
Gal Fed Identifiable Characters Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Ishina Fel If BoB had never eliminated ASCN and ingested its territories, this war would not be fought. The ASCN war showed people very clearly how powerful BoB had become - in my opinion, the driving force behind such a large and well-coordinated 'preventive strike' strategy. ASCN didn't get steamrolled because BoB was very powerful, it got steamrolled because ASCN was basically like a blowfish. The war didn't give BoB a superior reputation to the one it had, it merely reaffirmed what people knew of BoB. I still think BoB would have had a greater challenge fighting a number of other targets. ASCN was never big on PvP. -Not an unidentified character
Athon Mar The Greater Goon The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:41:00 - [48] During the ZXH war between Goonfleet and D2/Youwhat, ASCN promised support close to the end of the engagement. At that time, ASCN and Goonfleet had positive standings. Once BoB decided to meddle in Goonfleet's ZXH campaign with the famous "There are no goons." statement, camping of Syndicate and Goonfleet's home system for weeks, and otherwise meddling where they were decidedly not involved, ASCN proceeded to set Goonfleet to zero, and no support materialized. Goonfleet would never forget that. I'm sure that no one in Goonfleet shed any tears for that.
ishkabibble Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:49:00 - [49] War was inevitable in EvE, its natural progression ASCN's fall to BoB was not the cause of the war, it merely accelerated its start time Everyone was getting ready cause the rumblings were there, it was just a matter of time Unofficial "Official New Eden Forum Video"
Sentar Manar Amarr NailorTech Industries Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:59:00 - [50] Plotting things out it would have been far better for BoB to have not attacked ASCN. True their blood lust would have braught them out to attack another Alliance. ASCN though was a very public alliance not on of those "Oh? who are those chaps being rolled by BoB oh well..." Alliances. ASCN was big and public. Also it was known that they were at one time Freinds and commrads in arms. ASCN though was an Industreal Alliance that manly conserned its self with generating huge profits and building large things. BoB on the other hand only needed to Generate profits if it was to fund some new war Machines. Bob however by fighting the war wound up having many of their tacitics out in the open. People tend to dissagree with using nongame tactics to win battles. Certain events which will not be mentioned occured. And people got mad. Had Bob not attacked then they would have ASCNs huge industrial force either backing them or not involved in the conflict with whoever. Also the war would not be as public and people would not have watched with much attention or intrest. That was Bobs core mistake. Attacking an ally (former) that was very out there in the spotlight. This war will grind Bob to death untill there is no return. LV or any other Ally won't stop or slow down the fleets like ASCN would. :End Transmition:

MyDaddysaNinja The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Answer: They would have made nice Cannon Fodder for BOB * * * * * * Chuck Norris once shot down a BOB titan by putting his hand in the shape of a gun and saying "BANG!"-QFT
Brunswick2 eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:37:00 - [52] The thing is, even if BoB hadn't killed ASCN, ASCN would've just descended more into carebearia. Following the trend before the BoB war, more of the PvPers would've left and more carebearers. ASCN when the BoB war started was already way past its time. It was already dead, its still dead now. Lets stop debating the merits of killing ASCN.
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:44:00 - [53] The war with BoB was a very good thing from my point of view. It forced a change within the organization. It told the carebears to either shape up or GTFO. Many things were learned, new midsets developed and basically some very good metal was formed including the purging of the bad. If the forum conduct during that war had been respectful those remnants would be on their side today instead of against. Also ASCN believed that you have to stand on your own to hold your own space. It was not able to do that so most people were shown that it should die. -----------------------------
fugazii Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... 2 cents your sadly mistaken if you dont think this war and coalition was planned long before ascn vrs bob war happened. why do you think there hasnt been war in the north for a long time, or anyone fighting on large scale outside of the russians lv and bob?
Sionn Klorgh Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:56:00 - [55] Quote: The war with BoB was a very good thing from my point of view. It forced a change within the organization. It told the carebears to either shape up or GTFO. Many things were learned, new midsets developed and basically some very good metal was formed including the purging of the bad. If the forum conduct during that war had been respectful those remnants would be on their side today instead of against. Also ASCN believed that you have to stand on your own to hold your own space. It was not able to do that so most people were shown that it should die. Indeed. ASCN NEVER put PVP first and it cost them very dearly. ASCN's war time leadership were very good at running peacetime empires and did many firsts (outposts, titan, 0.0 markets) but even they admitted that as a war time leadership, they just couldn't cut it (and appointed more appropriate people a little too late in the war). The whole structure lacked PVP support. From leadership, to industry that was out more to make ISK than promote PVP, to a lack of FCs and fleet experience. Anyhow, the funny thing is that a good deal of the ASCN pvpers are now fighting BOB in one form or another. For me personally, the war never finished and I signed up with a good pvp crew that had BOB KOS.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Illumination Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.05 05:29:00 - [56] I think the defeat of ASCN was an indisputable long-term victory for BOB given the amount of cash they rake in from renter alliances and corporations. MWA, SCA, and who knows who else...I don't even know who lives in Feyth these days, but there's a lot of potential income even from indirect ownership by the BOB empire. ASCN was destroyed far faster than even BOB expected, so relying on them as a meatshield or even a deterrent might have been less wise than controlling the space themselves. And what did they pay for it? Their losses were comparatively low. They didn't feel a need to NAP everyone in sight afterwards. BOB and ASCN aren't tied to each other, so one dying doesn't equal the other's death knell. What alliances are tied to is the balance of power. When a large alliance falls, smaller ones that lived under their umbrella will fall/relocate as well. Alliances like Axiom and POS have lost most or all of their southern assets in the wake of ASCN's demise. If BOB goes, so too potentially does Xelas, the MC, etc. If anything, the removal of ASCN created a natural tendency to view BOB as a creeping superpower and hegemon that has to be destroyed in the name of 'game balance' or because of shady dealings with CCP. BOB knows that, and they don't care too much. The controversy that the Goons and particularly CA have made their cause celebre is a nice rallying cry, but I bet they'd have gone after them anyway...If they lose, one can hardly say they're incompetent or bad players for losing against a force several times the size of their own. and if they win, they remove all doubt as to who's the king of alliance-level PVP. Setting everyone to neutral is an invitation to violence, BOB did that, what, more than a year ago? and nobody dared to attack them. Strategically, this was stupid of everyone to sit back and say, OH NO, BOB SET US TO 0, LET US COWER IN OUR VALUABLE OUTPOSTS AND AWAIT THE INEVITABLE. That's a losing strategy and the legacy of Tribal Souls and ASCN proves it. If anyone had wanted to take out BOB, that was the moment to do it. They quite literally had no allies. But nobody would dare! So they had to provoke, again, again and again. Now they've gotten the reaction they hoped for, and we'll see if they can handle it. And as someone said, fighting = good. If the North hadn't joined in the current war, they'd be fighting a losing battle against General Boredom and Major Ennui.
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 08:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... 2 cents QFT. Kam when are you going to come over to the good side btw? Beer and cookies still available....
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.05 09:12:00 - [58] Originally by: Roller To paraphrase CYVOK "I hate dog piles".... That is what BoB is facing. Instead of leaving LV to twist in the wind with no support ASCN could have shored them up for a little while longer (1 to 3 months). The inevitable would have probably still happened (fall of LV) but then RA-Goon-TCF would still had another meat shield to go through before getting to BoB. With ASCN in place you would have also kept -A- engaged with AXE. Removing ASCN from the equation spead up the demise of LV, released -A- to attack, and shortened the time till the east could directly attack BoB. They've seemingly stacked the deck against themselves as much as possible. If you're playing this game for keeps then such "tactical" moves would not seem wise. I don't think BoB is playing for keeps. Not like the rest of us. Alot of alliances are their territory, their image so completely linked with their home territory that they would be hard put to live anywhere else should they lose their home. This just doesn't apply to BoB, and even if they lost half of their membership and all their current space, they'd still be something to be reckoned with. A secondary war of this will probably follow, essentially one where the loser of this war (whoever that turns out to be) ends up invading new space to colonize. At least I don't think this war will just... end, not without after-effects and lasting skirmishes. ---- All you do is bark. You never meow.
Blitz'Krieg Caldari SkyMarshal Logistics	Posted - 2007.03.05 10:00:00 - [59] The basis as i understand it of the ASCN war was to remove the next most powerful alliance after themselves. With the advent of the Titan BoB simply couldn't sit back and wait while a largescale bunch of carebears armed themselves. Inside of six months ASCN would have had the largest Titan and Mothership fleet in eve and that would make it a very hard nut to break. A preemptive strike to remove that capability was really the only option open to them, and this was made apparent by the unveiling of the first Titan. The next possible target if ASCN wasn't hit would have been D2, and while now that may look like it would have been the better option as ASCN crumbled so easily who knows the strength that ASCN could have got to in those extra few months. Anyone who has been involved in the fights with Titans knows what kind of effect they have on the battlefield and logofski aside how damn difficult they are to kill. IMHO ascn and AXE were both doomed as soon as they decided to split.
Ricarda M Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:17:00 - [60] sure it was! thx BoB Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])



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