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Was killing ASCN worth it?

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Gal Fed Identifiable Characters Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:26:00 - [1] Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. -Not a unidentified character
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:27:00 - [2] time will tell Suicide is bad, hmkay? (clickety clickety)
Grainsalt Free Corp	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Grainsalt on 04/03/2007 21:24:40 I think BOB are in it for good fights, they thought they would have got more .. This war is what they want, a challenge, so I don't think they care either way, in fact they probably prefer it more this way. Just my 2 cents. ---
Rikeka Amarr Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Rikeka on 04/03/2007 21:27:12 I doubt ASCN would have sided with BoB on this one. I read somewhere that the north hated ASCN more than BoB itself, so ASCN would probably had stayed neutral on this one. Anyone`s guess now. Unless you ask a former high ranking officer of ASCN ¿What would have done if this and that...¿, of course.
Aeryn Musevenii	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:30:00 - [5] If ascn was worth a damn it wouldnt have folded so quickly. given the current situation i doubt they would have made it 1 week into the fight, never mind 1 month. theirs no place for half baked carebares in this war, and iss has proved it.
Kam SingDu'k Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:34:00 - [6] If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... 2 cents
thoth foc Elcyion Lacar	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:34:00 - [7] what difference does it make? regions? stations? change is good.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) xATUK (.5.) xDICE (BOB)
Gal Fed Identifiable Characters Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:35:00 - [8] Edited by: Gal Fed on 04/03/2007 21:33:10 Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 04/03/2007 21:27:12 I doubt ASCN would have sided with BoB on this one. I read somewhere that the north hated ASCN more than BoB itself, so ASCN would probably had stayed neutral on this one. Anyone`s guess now. Unless you ask a former high ranking officer of ASCN ¿What would have done if this and that...¿, of course. ASCN and BoB were long time friends. Much of this comes from the fact that CYVOK and BoB's leaders were friends with each other. It was quite suprising when BoB one day decided to attack ASCN as ASCN considered BoB to be somewhat friendly even if it was more unofficial than the relationship between other alliances. Point being, in a war this large, ASCN would of easily fallen in the BoB camp. EDIT: And also ASCN and the north were never friendly, especially after that war about a year and a half ago, when G/IRON invaded Feyth. -Not a unidentified character
maarud Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:35:00 - [9] IIRC, ASCN were planning to move against BoB, they just decided to strike first. I could be wrong about that, but I remember reading that somewhere, dunno if it's true or not. Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
Drakma Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:46:00 - [10] Originally by: Gal Fed Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 04/03/2007 21:27:12 I doubt ASCN would have sided with BoB on this one. I read somewhere that the north hated ASCN more than BoB itself, so ASCN would probably had stayed neutral on this one. Anyone`s guess now. Unless you ask a former high ranking officer of ASCN ¿What would have done if this and that...¿, of course. ASCN and BoB were long time friends. Much of this comes from the fact that CYVOK and BoB's leaders were friends with each other. It was quite suprising when BoB one day decided to attack ASCN as ASCN considered BoB to be somewhat friendly even if it was more unofficial than the relationship between other alliances. Point being, in a war this large, ASCN would of easily fallen in the BoB camp. I can honestly say that I don't believe ASCN would have sided with BoB. At best, I viewed that "friendship" at arms length... ----------------- Gekidoku is recruiting - Ingame channel Gekidoku

OwnedBy Me	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:50:00 - [11] ASCN/AXE where friendly with BOB it was just small roaming gangs into eachothers space but nothing big.. Some of the leader are RL freinds and still are afaik.. Im sure that AXE and quit possibly ASCN would have taken side with BOB if things had gone a different way. ASCN wasnt all carebears, they did kick out G/IRON/RAZOR when they tryed to invade Frey.. AXE was hit but AAA and ASCN was hit but BOB, as everyone know that they toghter would have made it alot harder fight for BOB and might have dragged it out alot longer then it happened. Its my belive that the outcome would have been the same ever the less.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:52:00 - [12] Originally by: Grainsalt Edited by: Grainsalt on 04/03/2007 21:24:40 I think BOB are in it for good fights, they thought they would have got more .. This war is what they want, a challenge, so I don't think they care either way, in fact they probably prefer it more this way. Just my 2 cents. That is why they are complaining in 3-f right now about it.
Ben Derindar KelBen Productions	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? From their perspective I would say if BoB win the current war, then no, but if they don't, then quite possibly. Who knows? shrug Originally by: Kam SingDu'k If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... That may have been a catalyst, but I don't think we would be seeing what we're seeing now had certain OOG allegations not come to light. Originally by: maarud IIRC, ASCN were planning to move against BoB, they just decided to strike first. I could be wrong about that, but I remember reading that somewhere, dunno if it's true or not. That would surprise me if that were the case. Even long after leaving the alliance, I was worried that ASCN taking Paragon from Tribal Souls would have them overextended, let alone thoughts of pressing any further. /Ben How to fix Eve
Zimi Vlasic F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.03.04 21:59:00 - [14] I think two groups fighting each-other is ALWAYS worth it. Find Roid, Examine, and Excavate Explorer Proud member of the Customer Service Coalition.
killerco Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:00:00 - [15] Originally by: maarud IIRC, ASCN were planning to move against BoB, they just decided to strike first. I could be wrong about that, but I remember reading that somewhere, dunno if it's true or not. when the war really started ascn made the first real move. It back fired on ascn but thats another story Don't be a great man just be a man
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:01:00 - [16] ASCN so called got killed cuz their leadership lied and what not to its membership . So when can we expect a declaration of war upon LV by BoB ? _____________ Im back !
Grainsalt Free Corp	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:04:00 - [17] Originally by: Audri Fisher Originally by: Grainsalt Edited by: Grainsalt on 04/03/2007 21:24:40 I think BOB are in it for good fights, they thought they would have got more .. This war is what they want, a challenge, so I don't think they care either way, in fact they probably prefer it more this way. Just my 2 cents. That is why they are complaining in 3-f right now about it. As Sir Molle said, if they start losing, 1/2 of bob would leave but the hardcore that fought the GNW would still be there. I wouldnt confuse one half with the other. ---
insanebe Caldari soni Corp Imperium Sonorumance	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:15:00 - [18] Originally by: OwnedBy Me ASCN/AXE where friendly with BOB it was just small roaming gangs into eachothers space but nothing big.. Some of the leader are RL freinds and still are afaik.. Im sure that AXE and quit possibly ASCN would have taken side with BOB if things had gone a different way. ASCN wasnt all carebears, they did kick out G/IRON/RAZOR when they tryed to invade Frey.. AXE was hit but AAA and ASCN was hit but BOB, as everyone know that they toghter would have made it alot harder fight for BOB and might have dragged it out alot longer then it happened. Its my belive that the outcome would have been the same ever the less. what do you mean axe would have sided with BoB i thought they were already on the side of BoB in Fountain knowledge is power.... guard it well
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:18:00 - [19] Edited by: Xeliya on 04/03/2007 22:15:02 It was worth, us in the South get board fast with no fighting, even if our land is destroyed its well worth it. Care Bearing and NAPing everyone FTL ----------
Sha Dar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:20:00 - [20] If Cyvok was still in charge, and they hadn't taken feyth, then proabably, yes, though to help BOD in this would have caused a mass haemorehage of members and quite possibly corps. However, we weren't "friendly" in the sense most people think. We viewed them as our biggest threat, and it came true.

Byzan Zwyth Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:21:00 - [21] I'm still a newb but to me it seems, 1, if bob never killed ASCN this war may never have started 2, I think bob have got just what they wanted ---------------------- Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc?
Tomic Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:35:00 - [22] I don't think ASCN would have helped BOB unless it was clear the northern coalition threatened ASCN as well. The other question you need to ask yourself is the flip side of this one, did D2 + friends make a mistake by waiting until ASCN died to join the fight? Given some release of pressure and some recovering time (maybe 1-2 months) ASCN would undoubtedly have joined in the coalition against BOB, and they would have had a load more help. Time will tell whether this would make that much of a difference, but it certainly would have made the coalition's job a lot easier.
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:46:00 - [23] Edited by: Fitz Chivalry on 04/03/2007 22:42:43 Originally by: maarud IIRC, ASCN were planning to move against BoB, they just decided to strike first. I could be wrong about that, but I remember reading that somewhere, dunno if it's true or not. You are 100% wrong about that.
Vodka Neat Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:48:00 - [24] Quickly stated, no. From my point of view, friendly or not, one of them would attack the other. This is because of the perceived power of each. They posed the most immediate threat to each other. This was also most likely slowing down BoBÆs plans since they would always have to factor in this potential threat when trying to gobble up more of the map. If they hadnÆt destroyed ASCN and got into a prolonged fight in the north I canÆt imagine ASCN not attacking in the south while they were exposed. I think the real question will be: Was not helping ASCN kill BoB a mistake? -Why don't the NPC pilots have pods?-
Roller Syn-Packet Security	Posted - 2007.03.04 22:58:00 - [25] To paraphrase CYVOK "I hate dog piles".... That is what BoB is facing. Instead of leaving LV to twist in the wind with no support ASCN could have shored them up for a little while longer (1 to 3 months). The inevitable would have probably still happened (fall of LV) but then RA-Goon-TCF would still had another meat shield to go through before getting to BoB. With ASCN in place you would have also kept -A- engaged with AXE. Removing ASCN from the equation spead up the demise of LV, released -A- to attack, and shortened the time till the east could directly attack BoB. They've seemingly stacked the deck against themselves as much as possible. If you're playing this game for keeps then such "tactical" moves would not seem wise.
Gal Fed Identifiable Characters Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Vodka Neat Quickly stated, no. From my point of view, friendly or not, one of them would attack the other. This is because of the perceived power of each. They posed the most immediate threat to each other. This was also most likely slowing down BoBÆs plans since they would always have to factor in this potential threat when trying to gobble up more of the map. If they hadnÆt destroyed ASCN and got into a prolonged fight in the north I canÆt imagine ASCN not attacking in the south while they were exposed. I think the real question will be: Was not helping ASCN kill BoB a mistake? In the 2 year history of ASCN, it was the agressor in only one conflict. I believe it was againist Tribal Souls (might have been Prime Orbitial Systems, I always mix up the two). CYVOK decided to go to war because despite his best efforts to negotiate with them it appeared that they were only intrested in playing games with him. Therefore, I highly doubt ASCN was prepping to go to war with anyone, let alone BoB. -Not an unidentified character
Helina Malinos Caldari Euro Traders	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. ASCN was pwned hands down by a far smaller alliance, BOB is holding of far greater numbers with ease and getting some awsom kills. The truth is that ASCN would not have been in any way shape or form any use to BoB and its better for EVE that there gone.
Sky lv Chicas Locas Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:34:00 - [28] I think this was all a mater of time tbh. eventually this war had to happen, and I think it shows there are checks and balances. Personally I dont think any one alliance should control all of .0 (which if was possible there would have to be something very wrong with eve) which is clearly bobs attentions, this war proves that if you **** enough people off they will come after you no matter who you are. With LV out of the picture now bob might get what they claim they want all out war.
Beowulf Scheafer Gallente Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:34:00 - [29] IF my aunt WOULD have a p3n15, she WOULD be my uncle.... so whats exactly the point of this discussion ?
fisty Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Grainsalt Edited by: Grainsalt on 04/03/2007 21:24:40 I think BOB are in it for good fights, they thought they would have got more .. This war is what they want, a challenge, so I don't think they care either way, in fact they probably prefer it more this way. Just my 2 cents. signed Ciao

hired goon Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Gal Fed ASCN and BoB were long time friends. Much of this comes from the fact that CYVOK and BoB's leaders were friends with each other. It was quite suprising when BoB one day decided to attack ASCN as ASCN considered BoB to be somewhat friendly even if it was more unofficial than the relationship between other alliances. Now we see what happens to anyone who thinks BoB is their 'friend'. Not that I haven't been saying this for two years - that BoB is a blight on Eve that everyone (at the time IRON, G, PA, NBSI, F-E, FA, and Imperium) should have exterminated. People finally understand now, two years later. Also, lol @ Identifiable Characters Corporation. Epic loophole exploit! -omg-
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:52:00 - [32] I don't think the ASCN war has anything to do with the current situation. Originally by: Ice Conch In soviet russia, soap drops you!
Coasterbrian Loss of Sanity	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:57:00 - [33] ASCN is dead. Debating the merits of killing it is pointless. ---------- Loss of Sanity.
Recco Mithril Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.04 23:58:00 - [34] Well my 2 cents.. + a cold beer If BoB had not made the assult on ASCN this WAR would be in another state then it is today. Dont forget that ASCN were friends with -LV- and that side. AXE would probly not have lost Impass to .-A-. [atleast not as fast as they did] But this is EvE.. you never know what tomorow brings. So it might have gone this way -> -LV- / -V- / AXE / ASCN / ISS and friends fighting in the south and south east vs. RED / GOONS / .-A-. / IAC / TFC and friends. BoB might have gone into that fight. But in my opinion they would have sat that one out. As they did before they attact ASCN. The North probly hadnt come down to Fountain and Querios. But who knows. Mithril Inc.com - Mithril Inc KB
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:13:00 - [35] As fun as "What If" games are, the fact is that BoB DID declare war on ASCN. I don't know if its just an imagination failure on my part, but I can't picture BoB NOT having declared war on ASCN when they did, without something drastic intervening. ASCN were making claims to being the most powerful group in EVE (a title that BoB tend to claim), were a practically embedded neighbour, and had recently unveiled a Titan in the most ePeen fashion possible. But playing along with the what if, we've got to assume BoB will have attacked someone else instead (I can't imagine BoB having been dormant for 6 months). That'd be either the North, RA Swarm or LV. LV have been in an ailing state for a fair while, so it's unlikely BoB would have attacked them. Attacking RA Swarm would have brought in the ASCN on their side or atleast actively neutral (since ASCN wouldn't have wanted to be sandwhich'd between two allies and on the wrong side), which would have probably have brought the North in on RA's side, to prevent a whitewash. If BoB had attacked the North, it would be less likely that RA would have got involved (having their hands full already), but without aid LV probably wouldn't have lasted much longer than they have now, leading to an extremely potent southern block in RA. So really the cause for the current situation harks back to way before the ASCN war, in all sorts of quantum butterfly style causes. Attacking ASCN really was the most sensible thing to do at the time, and not having done so probably would have led to an even worse (or at least as bad) situation. For BoB to have been ina better situation than they are right now, they would have to go back far further and change things far more profound than the ASCN war. And anyhow (/cynic mode on), the way ASCN melted away under BoB, how much use would they have been to anyone as an ally? (I didn't mean it! Don't hurt me karma!) --------
Cmd Woodlouse Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:38:00 - [36] A dead ASCN under such a leadership as Cyvok is indeed worth nearly everything ingame in my eyes. Cmd Bitterlouse out. --------------------------------
laotse shangdi	Posted - 2007.03.05 00:40:00 - [37] ascn is dead leave it that way but in current thing it dont mather wat bob is doing it will alway,s stink 80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Watauga Minmatar Imperial Guardians	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:03:00 - [38] Personally, I think for the hardcore members of BoB, they win either way. They could win this war and defeat most of their major threats for the time being or lose the war and be free of running a major empire and run around shooting anything that moves. If BoB loses this war, the coalition will probably turn on itself and that is not necessarily a bad thing. There would be multiple wars all over 0.0 space and things would be much more interesting than they have been before this war.
Zae'dra Xanthe Fist of the Goat	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:06:00 - [39] I think they're happy as a clam that they took down ASCN. Now they have people flying from all parts of New Eden to come and attack them. They can fight in their own backyard! I honestly believe that Bob need a constant flow of action in order to sustain their esprit de corps. Currently, they have all the action they want! I can't imagine them not being any happier than they are right now. I doubt very much having ASCN supply their forces would make them any happier. If anything, they're better off. If ACSN were losing ships and fleet battles while aligned with Bob, Bob would be taking defeats by proxy. I think they'd rather stand on their own or with VERY trusted allies.
Dragutinovic Caldari Bladerunners Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:11:00 - [40] Originally by: Dragutinovic ASCN so called got killed cuz their leadership lied and what not to its membership . So when can we expect a declaration of war upon LV by BoB ? Im waiting . _____________ Im back !

Jotan Veer Wings of Turul Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:17:00 - [41] Cyvok once told me that if BOB died ASCN would have been the next in line following it to the grave (paraphrased). Time will tell if the reverse is true.
Mtthias Clemi Gallente Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:19:00 - [42] Erm... i dont know where people had been getting the idea that ASCN and BoB were friends from... they had been raiding each other for a while.. i remember it quite well actually, sending fast gangs into BoB space was quite common, unless the high command said different ASCN was the biggest closest and most worthy target at the time.. i see this as the only reason BoB attacked them. I have a corpse back in AZN's Love Shack!.. ill be wanting it back sometime soon is all i know -------------------------------------------- Stay away from my signature all of ya!!! IM WARNING YOU!! PEW PEW PEW PEW!
iceyreloaded Amarr ShaK Scientific	Posted - 2007.03.05 01:40:00 - [43] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. Speculating on what could have happened in the past if different actions were taken is a total waste of time. A fact however, is that Bob always want a fight. It's my belief they are perfectly happy with the current war and I hope it challenges them because the ASCN war certainly didn't.
ceo person	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. depends what time ur talkin about ;p a couple months before they started the pendulum crap? hell no ;p before then? no clue :D does it really matter though ;p?
Dao 2 Suicidal-Kushan-Pirates	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Dao 2 on 05/03/2007 03:00:53 Originally by: ceo person Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Had ASCN still been around today and had BoB never of declared war on them, they would have undoubtedly of sided with Bob in this New Eden War. So, was it a mistake for BoB to kill off ASCN and lose a ally (and even create more enemies now) for this war, or have the benefits of having Feythabolis, Estoria, and Paragon Soul outweighed the disadvanatges? Personally I think BoB would have been better off with ASCN still alive. Several bil a month in rent can't possibly be worth having the largest alliance in the game by your side. depends what time ur talkin about ;p a couple months before they started the pendulum crap? hell no ;p before then? no clue :D does it really matter though ;p? son of a ***** alt :\| i gotta remeber to delete tonight ;;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:13:00 - [46] If BoB had never eliminated ASCN and ingested its territories, this war would not be fought. The ASCN war showed people very clearly how powerful BoB had become - in my opinion, the driving force behind such a large and well-coordinated 'preventive strike' strategy. It is however true that BoB is always out to seek their fun in battle. If they had not targeted ASCN, they would have targeted a different area or alliance. There would have been a war, yes; and after it had ended, there would have been a new war, which we would be fighting right about now. However, it would be in no shape or form this war, and the participants as well as ASCN's role and relation to BoB are sufficiently impossible to predict.
Gal Fed Identifiable Characters Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Ishina Fel If BoB had never eliminated ASCN and ingested its territories, this war would not be fought. The ASCN war showed people very clearly how powerful BoB had become - in my opinion, the driving force behind such a large and well-coordinated 'preventive strike' strategy. ASCN didn't get steamrolled because BoB was very powerful, it got steamrolled because ASCN was basically like a blowfish. The war didn't give BoB a superior reputation to the one it had, it merely reaffirmed what people knew of BoB. I still think BoB would have had a greater challenge fighting a number of other targets. ASCN was never big on PvP. -Not an unidentified character
Athon Mar The Greater Goon The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:41:00 - [48] During the ZXH war between Goonfleet and D2/Youwhat, ASCN promised support close to the end of the engagement. At that time, ASCN and Goonfleet had positive standings. Once BoB decided to meddle in Goonfleet's ZXH campaign with the famous "There are no goons." statement, camping of Syndicate and Goonfleet's home system for weeks, and otherwise meddling where they were decidedly not involved, ASCN proceeded to set Goonfleet to zero, and no support materialized. Goonfleet would never forget that. I'm sure that no one in Goonfleet shed any tears for that.
ishkabibble Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:49:00 - [49] War was inevitable in EvE, its natural progression ASCN's fall to BoB was not the cause of the war, it merely accelerated its start time Everyone was getting ready cause the rumblings were there, it was just a matter of time Unofficial "Official New Eden Forum Video"
Sentar Manar Amarr NailorTech Industries Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.05 03:59:00 - [50] Plotting things out it would have been far better for BoB to have not attacked ASCN. True their blood lust would have braught them out to attack another Alliance. ASCN though was a very public alliance not on of those "Oh? who are those chaps being rolled by BoB oh well..." Alliances. ASCN was big and public. Also it was known that they were at one time Freinds and commrads in arms. ASCN though was an Industreal Alliance that manly conserned its self with generating huge profits and building large things. BoB on the other hand only needed to Generate profits if it was to fund some new war Machines. Bob however by fighting the war wound up having many of their tacitics out in the open. People tend to dissagree with using nongame tactics to win battles. Certain events which will not be mentioned occured. And people got mad. Had Bob not attacked then they would have ASCNs huge industrial force either backing them or not involved in the conflict with whoever. Also the war would not be as public and people would not have watched with much attention or intrest. That was Bobs core mistake. Attacking an ally (former) that was very out there in the spotlight. This war will grind Bob to death untill there is no return. LV or any other Ally won't stop or slow down the fleets like ASCN would. :End Transmition:

MyDaddysaNinja The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Gal Fed Simple question: Was killing ASCN a mistake for BoB? Answer: They would have made nice Cannon Fodder for BOB * * * * * * Chuck Norris once shot down a BOB titan by putting his hand in the shape of a gun and saying "BANG!"-QFT
Brunswick2 eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:37:00 - [52] The thing is, even if BoB hadn't killed ASCN, ASCN would've just descended more into carebearia. Following the trend before the BoB war, more of the PvPers would've left and more carebearers. ASCN when the BoB war started was already way past its time. It was already dead, its still dead now. Lets stop debating the merits of killing ASCN.
Daald Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:44:00 - [53] The war with BoB was a very good thing from my point of view. It forced a change within the organization. It told the carebears to either shape up or GTFO. Many things were learned, new midsets developed and basically some very good metal was formed including the purging of the bad. If the forum conduct during that war had been respectful those remnants would be on their side today instead of against. Also ASCN believed that you have to stand on your own to hold your own space. It was not able to do that so most people were shown that it should die. -----------------------------
fugazii Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... 2 cents your sadly mistaken if you dont think this war and coalition was planned long before ascn vrs bob war happened. why do you think there hasnt been war in the north for a long time, or anyone fighting on large scale outside of the russians lv and bob?
Sionn Klorgh Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 04:56:00 - [55] Quote: The war with BoB was a very good thing from my point of view. It forced a change within the organization. It told the carebears to either shape up or GTFO. Many things were learned, new midsets developed and basically some very good metal was formed including the purging of the bad. If the forum conduct during that war had been respectful those remnants would be on their side today instead of against. Also ASCN believed that you have to stand on your own to hold your own space. It was not able to do that so most people were shown that it should die. Indeed. ASCN NEVER put PVP first and it cost them very dearly. ASCN's war time leadership were very good at running peacetime empires and did many firsts (outposts, titan, 0.0 markets) but even they admitted that as a war time leadership, they just couldn't cut it (and appointed more appropriate people a little too late in the war). The whole structure lacked PVP support. From leadership, to industry that was out more to make ISK than promote PVP, to a lack of FCs and fleet experience. Anyhow, the funny thing is that a good deal of the ASCN pvpers are now fighting BOB in one form or another. For me personally, the war never finished and I signed up with a good pvp crew that had BOB KOS.
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Illumination Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.05 05:29:00 - [56] I think the defeat of ASCN was an indisputable long-term victory for BOB given the amount of cash they rake in from renter alliances and corporations. MWA, SCA, and who knows who else...I don't even know who lives in Feyth these days, but there's a lot of potential income even from indirect ownership by the BOB empire. ASCN was destroyed far faster than even BOB expected, so relying on them as a meatshield or even a deterrent might have been less wise than controlling the space themselves. And what did they pay for it? Their losses were comparatively low. They didn't feel a need to NAP everyone in sight afterwards. BOB and ASCN aren't tied to each other, so one dying doesn't equal the other's death knell. What alliances are tied to is the balance of power. When a large alliance falls, smaller ones that lived under their umbrella will fall/relocate as well. Alliances like Axiom and POS have lost most or all of their southern assets in the wake of ASCN's demise. If BOB goes, so too potentially does Xelas, the MC, etc. If anything, the removal of ASCN created a natural tendency to view BOB as a creeping superpower and hegemon that has to be destroyed in the name of 'game balance' or because of shady dealings with CCP. BOB knows that, and they don't care too much. The controversy that the Goons and particularly CA have made their cause celebre is a nice rallying cry, but I bet they'd have gone after them anyway...If they lose, one can hardly say they're incompetent or bad players for losing against a force several times the size of their own. and if they win, they remove all doubt as to who's the king of alliance-level PVP. Setting everyone to neutral is an invitation to violence, BOB did that, what, more than a year ago? and nobody dared to attack them. Strategically, this was stupid of everyone to sit back and say, OH NO, BOB SET US TO 0, LET US COWER IN OUR VALUABLE OUTPOSTS AND AWAIT THE INEVITABLE. That's a losing strategy and the legacy of Tribal Souls and ASCN proves it. If anyone had wanted to take out BOB, that was the moment to do it. They quite literally had no allies. But nobody would dare! So they had to provoke, again, again and again. Now they've gotten the reaction they hoped for, and we'll see if they can handle it. And as someone said, fighting = good. If the North hadn't joined in the current war, they'd be fighting a losing battle against General Boredom and Major Ennui.
Liet Traep Minmatar Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.05 08:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Kam SingDu'k If Bob did not kill off ASCN there would be no 'great new eden' war... 2 cents QFT. Kam when are you going to come over to the good side btw? Beer and cookies still available....
Raem Civrie Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.05 09:12:00 - [58] Originally by: Roller To paraphrase CYVOK "I hate dog piles".... That is what BoB is facing. Instead of leaving LV to twist in the wind with no support ASCN could have shored them up for a little while longer (1 to 3 months). The inevitable would have probably still happened (fall of LV) but then RA-Goon-TCF would still had another meat shield to go through before getting to BoB. With ASCN in place you would have also kept -A- engaged with AXE. Removing ASCN from the equation spead up the demise of LV, released -A- to attack, and shortened the time till the east could directly attack BoB. They've seemingly stacked the deck against themselves as much as possible. If you're playing this game for keeps then such "tactical" moves would not seem wise. I don't think BoB is playing for keeps. Not like the rest of us. Alot of alliances are their territory, their image so completely linked with their home territory that they would be hard put to live anywhere else should they lose their home. This just doesn't apply to BoB, and even if they lost half of their membership and all their current space, they'd still be something to be reckoned with. A secondary war of this will probably follow, essentially one where the loser of this war (whoever that turns out to be) ends up invading new space to colonize. At least I don't think this war will just... end, not without after-effects and lasting skirmishes. ---- All you do is bark. You never meow.
Blitz'Krieg Caldari SkyMarshal Logistics	Posted - 2007.03.05 10:00:00 - [59] The basis as i understand it of the ASCN war was to remove the next most powerful alliance after themselves. With the advent of the Titan BoB simply couldn't sit back and wait while a largescale bunch of carebears armed themselves. Inside of six months ASCN would have had the largest Titan and Mothership fleet in eve and that would make it a very hard nut to break. A preemptive strike to remove that capability was really the only option open to them, and this was made apparent by the unveiling of the first Titan. The next possible target if ASCN wasn't hit would have been D2, and while now that may look like it would have been the better option as ASCN crumbled so easily who knows the strength that ASCN could have got to in those extra few months. Anyone who has been involved in the fights with Titans knows what kind of effect they have on the battlefield and logofski aside how damn difficult they are to kill. IMHO ascn and AXE were both doomed as soon as they decided to split.
Ricarda M Asgard Schiffswerften Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:17:00 - [60] sure it was! thx BoB Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])

James Britanicus Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Athon Mar ASCN proceeded to set Goonfleet to zero, and no support materialized. Goonfleet would never forget that. I'm sure that no one in Goonfleet shed any tears for that. 2 things: 1) It seems that the Goonfleet has forgotten it, by the showing of rements of some senior ASCN CORPS taking orders from RAGoonies, or perhaps RAGoonies haven't forgotten it and have decided that smashing Gek and CLS and the others against BoB first would be fair reprisal and, 2) LoL at all the armchair quarterbacks JB **************************************************************** He thinks he is Uber, if you don't believe me, just ask him :)
Oratu Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:41:00 - [62] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Valorem ([email protected])
Oratu Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:42:00 - [63] snip Posting with an unidentified character and characters in NPC corporations in this forum is prohibited. If you wish to participate in the discussions here, be sure to have your corporation and or alliance status ticked in your forum settings. -Valorem ([email protected])
Bacci Galu Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:44:00 - [64] Opps Above is me
killerco Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:46:00 - [65] ASCn is dead lets just leave it at that and move on shall we all ;) Don't be a great man just be a man
Son Xo Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.03.05 11:59:00 - [66] Edited by: Son Xo on 05/03/2007 11:57:13 Originally by: Blitz'Krieg The basis as i understand it of the ASCN war was to remove the next most powerful alliance after themselves. With the advent of the Titan BoB simply couldn't sit back and wait while a largescale bunch of carebears armed themselves. Inside of six months ASCN would have had the largest Titan and Mothership fleet in eve and that would make it a very hard nut to break. A preemptive strike to remove that capability was really the only option open to them, and this was made apparent by the unveiling of the first Titan. The next possible target if ASCN wasn't hit would have been D2, and while now that may look like it would have been the better option as ASCN crumbled so easily who knows the strength that ASCN could have got to in those extra few months. Anyone who has been involved in the fights with Titans knows what kind of effect they have on the battlefield and logofski aside how damn difficult they are to kill. IMHO ascn and AXE were both doomed as soon as they decided to split. Best analysis of BOBs actions I¦ve ever read imho.
Capt Willard The Syndicate Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.05 13:02:00 - [67] Having had to endure the whole messy downfall, i can say that BoB didn't play much of an active role in ASCN falling apart, they didn't have to, we did it to ourselves. (Well apart from the huge no. of bribes.) Huge piles of billions where handed over to CLS for 'regional defence e.t.c' on a regular basis. None of this really materialised on the battlefields as the doo doo started hitting the fan, apart from barely subsidised BS's. i can only assume it fed someones T2 BPO collection. All the members corps told our masters that yes, every member did have a stockpile of at least 10 BS, spread across stations. Don't even need to look at the killboard stats to tell that one never happened. We had half the number of fleet comanders we needed, and only half the numbers we did have actually knew what they where doing. A majority of the 'battles' i was in involved warping between SS's for an hour until "warp to gate X, erm, erm, erm, erm, WARP OUT EVERYONE WARP OUT! how many did we loose?" while this was going on, most people seemed just working out how to get the billions of isk they had raked back up to empire before it became hard. There's always all the 'BoB=dev alts hax exploits rabblerabblerabble etc' no post on the fall of ASCN would be complete without it. I experienced many 'node crashes' where BoB always seemed to come off better, but mostly i either don't care even if they did 'cheat' or just understood the game mechanics better. Despite the 'proven' ties between bob and various GM's i think it was mostly people *****ing so they had abit more of an excuse for not fighting and just fleeing their materials up to empire. ASCN recruitment policy was crap / non existant for most corps, we let all sorts of smelly piles in, even me:) Packs of care-bears , isk farming alts , spies etc all got the green card. Whole corps where suspected of being bought off by BoB, or being bob alts in the first place. and having seen some of their members docking in bob captured stations, i can say that was probabily true. Whole systems even had their pos's offlined. No-one was told what was going on, no-one was going around trying to boost the moral. Most of the people who should have been doing this must of been evacuating assets or something. Soooo.... In summary, ASCN killed itself like smoking 100 cigs a day, getting lung cancer and then getting punched in the chest by someone (BoB) Was it worth it? Hell yes, I don't even care i was on the painful end of it and lost access to what had become probabily the most developed region in Eve. It showed the whole of eve that the game had stepped up another notch, and more dedication was required of all alliances from all their members, because as soon as the bad moral starts forming, people just wont fight. It just takes too long to earn a fleet ship for most members for them to be willing to throw them away non stop. BoB probabily won the war with their first T2 BS excursion to AZN about a month before the war 'officialy' started. The quickly assembled mostly t1 fleet we sent against it got wiped out, and everyone started talking about BoB as if they where the friggin bogey man and that stopped us every really putting up the fight we where capable of. The Horror......
Gilbert Drillerson DarkStar 1 Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.05 13:47:00 - [68] I was ASCN high command for a long time and allthough I cant claim objectivity I can say this: Bob are VERY good fighters and props for a well planned and executed campaign, I was especially impressed by Bob's logistical capabilities. In the end they may have won regardless of the thing im about to say. The main contributor to the relatively fast demise of ASCN was: LAG and crappy servers, at no time could we bring ASCN's superior numbers to bear.. everytime we tried, systems crapped out and we did not have the dicipline of the Bob fleets to handle logging back in. We had some major disasters due to this factor. This meant that we "had" to use smaller fleets and at equal numbers Bob's PVP'ers where better. Had we been able to use our numbers im sure the war would have lasted longer and may have had another outcome.. but in the end many players just gave up, everytime we tried strategic size operations, we ended up looking at the log in screen several times during the fight. It is kind of sad because this problem means that 100-200 dedicated pvp'ers can kill balanced alliances of any size like ASCN... size simply doesnt matter as long as this problem exists. Offcause there where loads of other issues contributing, but I stand firm on the above being the main reason, we had the numbers and we couldnt use them. With regards to the OP's question, "would ASCN have helped Bob ?", its hard to say, one thing i REALLY liked about ASCN was CYVOK, whatever he decided we did, simple as that :) I miss CYVOK. /Gil Dont get mad - Get even
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.05 15:16:00 - [69] BoB has been trying to get this fight for about 6 months I think. It took killing ASCN to get it, so for them I'm sure its worth it. To many NAP's make you weak. BoB could have stayed all warm and secure in their regions but what fun is that? We all win in this. In EvE either you are making isk somehow or pvping. If you are the kind of player that doesn't base how much fun he is having on the size of their wallet, eve gets very boring fast. If the zerg wins and send BoB to empire, we win, it gave us something to do and spend our isk on. If the zerg loses and BoB win, we win, it gave us something to do and spend our isk on. If the zerg wins, we win, as I would say the following 'peace' will last all of 2 weeks before they turn on themselves. BoB will then take either their regions back, or someone else's. We are immortal in EvE and as long as they stick together no single alliance will stand against them. If the zerg loses and BoB goes for revenge we still win. Thats months and months of things to spend our isk on. Everyone who isn't 100% carebear by nature should be thanking BoB for this. It is the gift they gave eve last February, something to do.
Kalif Arnuex Gallente Two Brothers Mining Corp.	Posted - 2007.03.05 16:19:00 - [70] I find it very amusing how all of a sudden any and every alliance in EVE would have rolled ASCN since BoB did it. Could just be me. If a war broke out in the north, I doubt ASCN would have gotten involved unless asked. I doubt Bob would have asked. So the only question left is if LV asked would ASCN have backed them, or welcomed RAGOON et al as neighbors.

Bacci Galu Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.05 22:39:00 - [71] Edited by: Bacci Galu on 05/03/2007 22:38:28 Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson I was ASCN high command for a long time and allthough I cant claim objectivity I can say this: Bob are VERY good fighters and props for a well planned and executed campaign, I was especially impressed by Bob's logistical capabilities. In the end they may have won regardless of the thing im about to say. The main contributor to the relatively fast demise of ASCN was: LAG and crappy servers, at no time could we bring ASCN's superior numbers to bear.. everytime we tried, systems crapped out and we did not have the dicipline of the Bob fleets to handle logging back in. We had some major disasters due to this factor. This meant that we "had" to use smaller fleets and at equal numbers Bob's PVP'ers where better. Had we been able to use our numbers im sure the war would have lasted longer and may have had another outcome.. but in the end many players just gave up, everytime we tried strategic size operations, we ended up looking at the log in screen several times during the fight. It is kind of sad because this problem means that 100-200 dedicated pvp'ers can kill balanced alliances of any size like ASCN... size simply doesnt matter as long as this problem exists. Offcause there where loads of other issues contributing, but I stand firm on the above being the main reason, we had the numbers and we couldnt use them. With regards to the OP's question, "would ASCN have helped Bob ?", its hard to say, one thing i REALLY liked about ASCN was CYVOK, whatever he decided we did, simple as that :) I miss CYVOK. /Gil *signed but i will add, i think there where a lot of lazy buggers in ASCN AND Hell yes it was worth it, i learnt so much, and made some real good freinds (ie flying with the same guys, months on end, tcag, tpar, gq2, azn) So sexy, ya mum wants one !!!
Saul Reaver UK Corp Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.03.06 03:20:00 - [72] Originally by: killerco ASCn is dead lets just leave it at that and move on shall we all ;) Took the words right out of my mouth. Time to stop refering to ASCN like they were legends. They collapsed from the inside coz their leader lost his new toy and didnt want to play anymore.
Retrostyle	Posted - 2007.03.06 03:42:00 - [73] Originally by: Herculite We all win in this. No you won't. You are ******* done.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.06 03:58:00 - [74] Originally by: Retrostyle Originally by: Herculite We all win in this. No you won't. You are ******* done. Post with your main when you tell me I'm done would ya?
SSgt Sniper Gallente In Excess Enterprises Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.06 05:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Zae'dra Xanthe I think they're happy as a clam that they took down ASCN. Now they have people flying from all parts of New Eden to come and attack them. They can fight in their own backyard! I honestly believe that Bob need a constant flow of action in order to sustain their esprit de corps. Currently, they have all the action they want! I can't imagine them not being any happier than they are right now. I doubt very much having ASCN supply their forces would make them any happier. If anything, they're better off. If ACSN were losing ships and fleet battles while aligned with Bob, Bob would be taking defeats by proxy. I think they'd rather stand on their own or with VERY trusted allies. BoB has no allies. They have meatshields. (Xelas/Aftermath/Coreli/some AXE in the north, FIX/LV until it's crash and burn/some AXE in the south) Eventually thier meatshields will realise that to BoB they are designed to be big ass targets to keep the heat off thier dread fuel ice mining and get sick of it. --------- Sparta!
NAFnist Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.06 05:37:00 - [76] its not like most people didnt wanted to see ASCN burn. Especially burn in BOB flames. I think everyone outside ASCN enjoyed the fact that they were attacked, regardless of how it might affect the future. - Regards NAFnist
NereSky Gallente Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.03.06 08:29:00 - [77] Tbh i personnally had been in the Northern block for what seems forever and ive always enjoyed fighting ASCN , the fights were relatively smack free and always good honest open combat(i miss those days) there was a couple of instances where from my POV they started to become unpredictable and i believe as far as i was concerned the ec-p8r incident (along with a couple of others) changed my perception of them, i didnt like seeing ASCN burn but at the same time because of some previous negative experiences from my pov i didnt feel like helping them, BoB on the other hand having a completely differant playing style which i disagree with i would love to see burn and i will always remember them not for thier skill at PvP but for negative reasons, ASCN on the whole throughout my experience were great adversaries and that i shall miss, now did BOB make a mistake in taking them out - who knows but i believe they did as its opened the door in the south which had until then remained firmly shut, this is just my own personnal views on this whole ASCN business, now if ASCN are to be in the histories i prefer to remember them as adversaries which gave good proper battles to all those that sought it on that level. now let ASCN RIP :)
killerco Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.03.06 11:54:00 - [78] Edited by: killerco on 06/03/2007 11:52:55 Edited by: killerco on 06/03/2007 11:51:03 Originally by: Saul Reaver Time to stop refering to ASCN like they were legends. Yes we where, we build the first player outpost, we have build the most player outpost(untill the moment we collapesed) so in that matter ascn is a legend in my humble opinion. Originally by: Saul Reaver They collapsed from the inside coz their leader lost his new toy and didnt want to play anymore. ASCN lost because off several factors(which have been discussed over and over again) which i won't mention again. All i was hoping for when i posted my message is too let it go and not kick a dead horse again and again and again and again and again and again(well you get my point) Don't be a great man just be a man


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