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Feasibility of ganking a skiff.

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Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1156	Posted - 2016.07.04 03:32:58 - [1] - Quote I had debate about survivability in hi-sec about the nature of the Skiff. I suppose I have seen code kills of Skiffs, but most of them were either badly fitted or had really expensive mods (like faction and pirate). And from experience I mined ice all through the great ice interdiction of 2013 (or was it 2014?) and watched as many other mining barges died while I mine. Even watched a few freighters and orca deaths, but no Skiffs to my recollection. Which brings me to a second point... People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today. That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity? Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking. Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones? And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter? How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways? Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16598	Posted - 2016.07.04 03:45:07 - [2] - Quote bot fleets tend to be wise to wars, you can dec them but they usually drop to npc or just continuously dodge before the decs go live in my experience anyway. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1808	Posted - 2016.07.04 05:26:27 - [3] - Quote ^^^^ This. It's so easy to avoid a wardec that basically only the uninformed get caught by them. The hard-core botters usually never leave their starter corp, for Chribba's sake. As for popping Skiffs.....it can (and is) done, but there are so many easier targets out that it rarely happens. Unless the target has managed to anger quite a few folks...:) Basically it takes lots of Talo's and Tornado's. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2602	Posted - 2016.07.04 06:29:34 - [4] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: People still refuse to mine in Skiffs even after I advised them not to. I watched someone die in a retriever today. Added a corpse to my collection today. That said, if Skiffs were affordable to gank, why are there are there still the bot fleets whom everyone hates from the miners to the gankers yet they still purge the belts of ice with impunity? Well this is a round about way of starting a discussion about skiff ganking. Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones? No-one regularly ganks Skiffs. They are economically immune to ganks. Miner ganking in general has been made unprofitable, but the math makes Skiffs very unappealing. A typical T2-fit exhumer will drop 10M ISK so if you can kill a Hulk or Mackinaw and retreive your own dropped loot, you can turn a profit. A tiny profit of 10-20M ISK/hour, but at least you can break even. On paper an untanked Skiff require a minimum of 4 perfect gank Catalysts, but in the real world, more like 6-8 so you are loosing 50-100M ISK per gank even if you have fleet of sufficient size to even try to attack. A tanked Skiff can go up into freighter territory of 20+ gank destroyers and would cost well more than the value of the Skiff, let alone the loot drop, and require rarely seen fleet sizes. So no, there is nothing you can do to attack the Skiff fleets other than try to out-compete them at their own game. It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. They killed any ability to gank profitably during the barge rebalance on purpose, and then made the Skiff/Procurer so economically punitive to gank, it almost never happens: the only Skiff losses in highec are due to wars. Captain Tardbar wrote: And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter? How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways? Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps? Given there is no reason to be in a corporation to mine, wars are near-useless against Skiff fleets. Sure, you can catch the odd person out if they don't notice a war, but given that wars are consensual and you can avoid them at any time by just dropping corp, I doubt any mercenary group will be able to follow through on such a contract. They would have to resort to ganking, and that would be very costly as outlined above. If they are tanked, you are looking at 200M+ to gank each Skiff in direct expenses alone, not to mention the time of the 20 person fleet, the cost of dealing with security status and killrights. Ganking an empty freighter is even more expensive. If it isn't tanked, it won't be much more than a Skiff but if they tank it, it will take 1-2 B ISK in Taloses. So in short, it ain't feasible unless you have a fleet of 100 players willing to shoot industrial ships with you in highsec in T1 destroyers for free. There are no groups of sufficient size to take your contract for any price that you would deem reasonable, and the cost in gank ships would exceed the economic cost you inflict on your enemy by exploding their Skiffs. Why Do They Gank?
Kaldi Tsukaya Deveron Shipyards and Technology 259	Posted - 2016.07.04 09:57:32 - [5] - Quote Yes they can be ganked. A notorious group has been successful doing it. They can bring the 10-15 ships required, and do their homework on the damage types. If you leave a resist hole (EM) and fit for yield (no DCU), you are susceptible. That extra Mining Upgrade must really be worth it. People are their own worst enemy Carry on edit, "Gummy Bears"
Brokk Witgenstein Extreme Agony The Wraithguard. 368	Posted - 2016.07.04 10:05:41 - [6] - Quote Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank. Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya? Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2604	Posted - 2016.07.04 10:27:08 - [7] - Quote Brokk Witgenstein wrote: Actually, I think a Procurer is less cost-effective to gank. Take down a Skiff, at least you have a 260 mil killmail on your hands. We all know you don't gank miners for profit anyway-- you didn't really need that Scordite so badly now, did ya? Procurers have similar tanks, cost only 35 mil and insurance covers around 28. Neither of them can be ganked economically when tanked which was question the OP raised. You cannot disrupt your rivals mining operation without taking a significant loss if they tank their Skiff/Procurers. Therefore, there is nothing you can do to disrupt a large multiboxing operation that is hogging an ice belt or otherwise taking what you view as your resources. Those are the numbers. If you want to gank them to make a point or for the challenge you can of course, no ship is ungankable, but there is no way you, or mercenaries you may hire, can remove them without taking a bigger loss than they inflict which is what the OP wanted to do. They are economically immune to attack by you. Best bet is to turn it up to 11 and try to out-compete them. Use yield-fit Hulks and twice as many exhumers to grab all the ice before your opponent can fill their hold, hiring mercs or bringing friends to supply ECM support if you think they may try to gank you. Do this enough and they will move on. But even in highsec ice is in excess and there are belts up all the time. It's probably easier to just move somewhere quieter than try to contest the resource. This seems like a serious flaw in designing a game where players are suppose to compete, but the situation is clearly intentional on CCP's part. I am not sure how they think supporting perfectly safe multiboxing Skiff fleets make the game any better, but there it is. If you are a new or solo miner, your time would be better spent doing some more dangerous niche mining, rather than trying to compete with or disrupt the multiboxers. Beat them paying attention to increase your yield by using riskier fits or mining in riskier space. Why Do They Gank?
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 352	Posted - 2016.07.04 12:24:58 - [8] - Quote I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12500	Posted - 2016.07.04 17:04:41 - [9] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 352	Posted - 2016.07.05 03:10:22 - [10] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...

Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12510	Posted - 2016.07.05 18:40:08 - [11] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Bumblefck wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me. I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :) Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Tengu Grib Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 1533	Posted - 2016.07.05 21:05:54 - [12] - Quote https://zkillboard.com/kill/39855159/ That's a link to me and a couple friends killing a skiff in the days before ISBoxer broadcasting was banned. Skiffs can be ganked, but as you guessed, it's generally poorly fit ones, or ones with expensive modules. As Black Pedro pointed out the manpower required is rather difficult to acquire with any sort of regularity. And if you have that kind of manpower available, Freighters are significantly more profitable and vastly more abundant (than skiffs fit with enough modules to be profitable to gank). So again as Black Pedro pointed out, Skiffs are financially invulnerable. The only way you'll lose one to a gank is one of the following Fit it exceptionally poorly Fit it exceptionally blingy Annoy someone to the point they don't care about the finances And even if you do one of those things, skiffs have pretty reasonable align times and agility as well as base movement speed (for a mining ship) so your chances of evading a gank while the gankers are in warp or starting to land is still pretty reasonable. Tl;Dr You have to try pretty hard to lose a Skiff to a gank and no, killing them en-masse is not viable at all. CCP has rendered them effectively financially invulnerable. Rabble Rabble Rabble Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
shootyou longtyme Systems High Guard Tactical Narcotics Team 6	Posted - 2016.07.06 02:05:28 - [13] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Do you gank skiffs? How often? Are they just badly fitted or can you gank the 60K EHP ones? And on top of that, how much would it cost a merc corp to purge an ice belt of a bot fleet of skiffs? I know this would take a great deal of effort and you would get more bang for your buck ganking the orca or freighter? How much does ganking an empty freighter cost these days anyways? Would the normal 600 mil cover the cost? Or would this be a special case as most bot fleets are in NPC corps? OP, It sounds like you may be looking for someone? If you are shopping for someone to suicide gank for you beacuse your targets are in NPC corps, contact me in game. I think a few of your corp mates know us. https://zkillboard.com/kill/54880455/
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 134	Posted - 2016.07.06 14:27:09 - [14] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: Bumblefck wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? Much better if you can get kills in a Skiff instead. I'm now trying MTU destruction with one in the hopes of baiting a MR into fighting me. Fingers crossed! Let me know if it works out for you. When you see my killboard, I have tried but I think most of them were bots cause they refused to engage me. I am trying my best (on my other guy, Gorki Andropov), and will certainly do - it's not easy, as most of them run as soon as you yellow box. I did have a guy in a Dominix shoot at me before he fled yesterday, but it was just a noobie. Oh well :) You have some stiff competition in becoming king of skiff warfare: https://zkillboard.com/ship/22546/topalltime/ It actually has pretty comparable stats to any of the Heavy Assault Cruisers....but in my experience people are more scared of the skiff...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1888	Posted - 2016.07.06 15:12:52 - [15] - Quote I would suggest that you go to Zkill and check out Otela, there you will see that Skiffs have been ganked, they take about 6 to 8 Catalysts if insufficiently tanked. If properly tanked you are talking 12 - 16 at 16 that is 136m of ganking ships. You will see one there yesterday but go back a couple of weeks and you will see more. 20 if they have the max tank and boosts. CCP have the viewpoint that it should not be profitable to gank a ship purely with a normal T2 fit for profit. So it has to be part of a campaign or that you really want to kill that person. People will chose the other ships because of yield and ease of use, for example a Retreiver is cheap and if they are ganked rarely then it is no issue, using one in Osmon for example is just asking for a loss mail. Maybe the Kusions will be interested, they seem to be very proficient... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2642	Posted - 2016.07.06 18:44:00 - [16] - Quote The economical reason is one thing why it is rarely done, the other thing is that it is stupid from a gameplay perspective. I mean try to motivate 15-20 guys for a fleet to kill Skiffs when the same fleet size is perfectly capable of killing much juicier targets like Orcas and Freighters. Keep in mind that a Ganker can only strike every 15min, so if you want to entertain them and keep the people in fleet you have to present them worthy targets and not some simple mining barge. the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1888	Posted - 2016.07.07 07:21:59 - [17] - Quote This ia what I would do about bot Skiffs in ice belts. First of all lets have all the prates now attacking hisec, so we have battleship rats and the Dread ones too. The pirates are especially focussed on the ice belts and have a much great tendency to drop their dreads on the ice belts, also if CCP has rats come in there continuously so the bots cannot use simplistic in come rats get out. Problem solved and more interesting gameplay to boot COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 251	Posted - 2016.07.08 20:20:35 - [18] - Quote Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere? A signature :o
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1891	Posted - 2016.07.08 20:33:03 - [19] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere? Yeah but CODE are so disillusioned by the sight of Skiffs that they are beaten before they are started... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dirk Magnum KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 536	Posted - 2016.07.09 15:05:39 - [20] - Quote The Skiff is a Code-compliant vessel, unless fit only for yield. If the carebear attempts to deceive New Order agents in such a way, they will eventually get what's coming to them. But yes in general, Skiffs and Procurers are uneconomical targets for ganking, and pretty annoying to deal with in general. I capped out a Skiff in lowsec and let my Pilgrim's drones eat away at it for several minutes before a corpmate of the target warped in with a Gila and forced me off the field. Skiff was in deep structure, but unless he was passive resist fit, he only had his native resists to go on. Very frustrating. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "LIVE FAST DIE." - traditional Minmatar ethos [citation needed]

Saeger1737 Bite the pillow Archetype. 1616	Posted - 2016.07.09 15:19:20 - [21] - Quote Like beating up an elephant with a sock.... your only going to kill it with time. MERC WITH A MOUTH, Send me DPS and my fleet will double it back! Special offer!
Sabriz Adoudel Move along there is nothing here 5867	Posted - 2016.07.16 10:24:03 - [22] - Quote Even a well-fitted Skiff can be ganked, but a fleet capable of doing so is probably also capable of blowing up Orcas. I'm actually OK with Skiffs being as durable as they are - if they had a lesser yield to compensate for it. The tradeoff of yield (compared to a Hulk) is too small to merit all those EHP. I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com Sabriz's Rule: "Any time someone argues for a game change claiming it is a quality of life change, the change is actually a game balance change".
Galaxy Pig New Order Logistics CODE. 1053	Posted - 2016.07.18 19:18:28 - [23] - Quote Are all anti-gankers incapable of writing a coherent sentence, or what's the deal there? *Highsec is owned by players now.* Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2016.07.19 00:29:05 - [24] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks. I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt. Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses. Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers.
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 365	Posted - 2016.07.19 03:02:08 - [25] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Black Pedro wrote: It's actually a good example of why there should be no safe spaces in a sandbox game as veteran players just abuse the safety to out-compete the new and casual miners who can't or won't multibox 10 accounts. I'm not sure why CCP thinks miners should be treated so special to be able to remove themselves from the sandbox gameplay they are developing, but the safety the highsec miner enjoy is clearly intentional on the part of CCP. Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks. I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt. Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses. Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers. How can highsec miners be more protected than right now except for just making their ships invulnerable? The nerfs to what gankers do and the buffs given to the carebears has turned the favor towards the afkers. Gankers are not going away, no matter what more nerfs/buffs CCP decides to throw at it. I am not sure they are even trying to find a happy medium. I sometimes gank on Morgan and an alt 1) To keep my security status below 5.0 and 2) Because I can. Why take away from my fun to protect someone who mostly isn't even at their keyboard while mining? When I do a gank and I find out they are not afk, I give them enough isk (and a fit for their mining ship/barge) to better protect themselves. If they are afk and they contact me, I give them half the isk (and the fit) and tell them to stay at their keyboard when mining because that is the right thing to do. If I am not contacted, they don't get jack ** from me and deserved what happened to them. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer** liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2628	Posted - 2016.07.19 06:07:18 - [26] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Making highsec less safe for miners would actually hurt new miners much more than veteran multiboxers. New players by virtue of being new are much more vulnerable to ganks since they don't know how to watch out for, and tend to have bad tanks. How would it be less safe for them? Allowing players to remove themselves as economically viable targets simply by flying a Skiff means that gankers focus all their attention on new players (and veteran players who are chasing more yield or a larger ore hold). Given new players don't fly Skiffs, I don't see how making Skiffs less attractive to fly is going to put new players at more risk. If anything, by making veterans viable targets again they would be more safe from attack. But the real impact on new players is not the rare chance they might get ganked and lose a ship they can replace in a hour or two of mining. It is the economic problem they face competing with bot/bot-aspirant/multiboxing fleets who drive down the price of their efforts. If you allow 100% economic safety from ganking as a Skiff fleet has, it allows a rich veterans to scale up their efforts in parallel out-competing new players for gathering ore. If such a fleet was at least at some risk, the multiboxer would have to trade-off safety vs. attention vs. effort to run such an operation. As it is, there is no trade-off or downside to just running as many Skiffs as your patience and computer hardware will allow as there is no risk of interference from other players. New players are griefed out of the game, or at least the mining profession, by such veterans who make it impossible for a new miner to make a competitive living. So they go do something else and highsec belts just end up full of silent, multi-boxing Skiff fleets and the game suffers for it. Crinnfika wrote: I've been in several indy corps over the years. old vets are never the ones that get killed, it's always the new ones that don't realize how vulnerable their shiny new retriever is, or why that cheap expendable frigate was poking around their mining belt. Oh and ganks hit new miners way harder than veterans since new miners don't have the isk stockpile to absorb losses. Additionally if highsec mining becomes more vulnerable then CCP needs to rebalance mining income since income level of highsec mining is so low compared the cost of barges and exhumers. Highsec mining, and mining in general pay so poorly because of the ease of multiboxing. The economic safety of Skiffs in highsec just exacerbates the problem, and makes it tougher to get into the game. The solution is to make mining more active, or at least more involved so that multiboxing invulnerable exhumers is not the most efficient, or only, way to compete. Invulnerable mining boosts (than only veterans have) need to go, and perhaps the new Drilling Platforms will allow more choice of how to mine and allow miners that take more risk or invest more effort to out-compete the Skiff fleets. CCP really needs to re-think the whole thing, including the safety/yield balance of Skiffs, if they want mining to be a profession new players can compete in, and that has more interesting gameplay than just fielding as many Skiffs as possible. You should be able to mine relatively safely in this game, but multiboxing Skiffs in absolute safety should not be a viable way to mine, let alone the most efficient and profitable. There should be reasons to take risks, spend effort, and to to invest in vulnerable infrastructure, so that actual gameplay takes place. Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1908	Posted - 2016.07.19 06:19:07 - [27] - Quote All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU... I don't know what systems you lot are looking in, but I see more than just skiffs and I never see multi boxing fleets of skiffs where I am. Skiff's are for the discerning Eve player and are perfectly fine... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2628	Posted - 2016.07.19 07:26:48 - [28] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU... I'm not sure why you think I am whining. This whole thread is the result of the OP asking what he can do to disrupt a Skiff fleet and answer is: nothing, they are economically immune to him. That is clearly intentional on the part of CCP, but as a result incentivizes solo, AFK and non-interactive gameplay, and hurts new players who are out-competed by veterans with their invulnerable Skiffs and mining boosts. Thankfully, invulnerable mining boosts that add no real gameplay but benefits established veterans at no effort and no risk are on the way out. I can understand why you personally would want a ship that is economically nonviable to gank, yet provides a competitive yield to the other ships, but I would think you would at least consider the plight of the new and solo player, who has to fight the multiboxers to scratch out a living that is a fraction of what they could make exploring or missioning or doing anything else. It's unfair to push all the risk onto new miners and yet let Skiff fleets keep all the reward. While the Skiff could use a slight nerf to yield (or the other two a slight buff), I think the real answer is adding more active and interactive forms of mining that allow a single account player to significantly increase their yield by active play or taking on more risk. I have high hopes that the Drilling Platform might be one of those mechanisms where a small group of active miners can out-compete with the Skiff fleets by deploying and defending infrastructure. I'd also love to see additional forms of more complex mining, like comet or perhaps a complete revamp of moon-mining, that allow a dedicated player to beat the efficiency of the AFKers and multiboxers by actually playing the game, instead of watching Netflix while they mine many accounts. Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1908	Posted - 2016.07.19 07:43:44 - [29] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: All these gankers whining and asking for a nerf of the Skiff, jeeez can't you just HTFU... I'm not sure why you think I am whining. This whole thread is the result of the OP asking what he can do to disrupt a Skiff fleet and answer is: nothing, they are economically immune to him. That is clearly intentional on the part of CCP, but as a result incentivizes solo, AFK and non-interactive gameplay, and hurts new players who are out-competed by veterans with their invulnerable Skiffs and mining boosts. Thankfully, invulnerable mining boosts that add no real gameplay but benefits established veterans at no effort and no risk are on the way out. I can understand why you personally would want a ship that is economically nonviable to gank, yet provides a competitive yield to the other ships, but I would think you would at least consider the plight of the new and solo player, who has to fight the multiboxers to scratch out a living that is a fraction of what they could make exploring or missioning or doing anything else. It's unfair to push all the risk onto new miners and yet let Skiff fleets keep all the reward. While the Skiff could use a slight nerf to yield (or the other two a slight buff), I think the real answer is adding more active and interactive forms of mining that allow a single account player to significantly increase their yield by active play or taking on more risk. I have high hopes that the Drilling Platform might be one of those mechanisms where a small group of active miners can out-compete with the Skiff fleets by deploying and defending infrastructure. I'd also love to see additional forms of more complex mining, like comet or perhaps a complete revamp of moon-mining, that allow a dedicated player to beat the efficiency of the AFKers and multiboxers by actually playing the game, instead of watching Netflix while they mine many accounts. People like me use the Skiff because we need the tank and we have a cost in yield already because we fit a tank. Also remember when you say that it is not economic to gank that CCP think that ganking a ship and its fit if T2 fitted is not supposed to be profitable to gank. A Skiff is not invulnerable, it can be ganked. Other people said to gank the Orca, you guys are good at ganking, if they want to go against someone they just need the will to do it. Outside of the heavily ganked areas people use Mackinaws, Hulks, Retrivers and the odd Coveter as well as Procurers and Skiffs. They use Skiffs en masse in heavikly ganked regions because they have to. A new player can get into a Procurer and then train for a Skiff, you don't gank Procurers much either. But in any case the people who get ganked the most are new players, if you did care about them you would not gank them and up your efforts on the vets, but you don't. Furthermore as you chaps have pointed out so many times on other threads Eve is not fair, why does it suddenly matter when it comes to a mining ship that those who want to be hard to kill have a choice to jump into. The small cargo bay is a pain and the yield impact is an impact and builds up in cost. I would leave it as it is, but the Drilling Platform approach is something I agree with however. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 365	Posted - 2016.07.19 07:51:00 - [30] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I don't know what systems you lot are looking in, but I see more than just skiffs and I never see multi boxing fleets of skiffs where I am. Then you need to get out of your system more. When I go MTU hunting, I come across a lot of Skiff fleets with Orca support sitting at a station. In fact, there was a large Skiff fleet stripping belts in Manatirid, who basically ignored me as I started bumping one of them away from an asteroid just yesterday. They are out there...go forth, young padawan. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1908	Posted - 2016.07.19 08:16:19 - [31] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I don't know what systems you lot are looking in, but I see more than just skiffs and I never see multi boxing fleets of skiffs where I am. Then you need to get out of your system more. When I go MTU hunting, I come across a lot of Skiff fleets with Orca support sitting at a station. In fact, there was a large Skiff fleet stripping belts in Manatirid, who basically ignored me as I started bumping one of them away from an asteroid just yesterday. They are out there...go forth, young padawan. Well that is an ice system which tend to be gank spots hence the use of Skiffs, so they strip mine the belts while waiting for the ice to spawn, if you go outside of ice systems its different. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2629	Posted - 2016.07.19 08:42:22 - [32] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: A new player can get into a Procurer and then train for a Skiff, you don't gank Procurers much either. But in any case the people who get ganked the most are new players, if you did care about them you would not gank them and up your efforts on the vets, but you don't. Furthermore as you chaps have pointed out so many times on other threads Eve is not fair, why does it suddenly matter when it comes to a mining ship that those who want to be hard to kill have a choice to jump into. The small cargo bay is a pain and the yield impact is an impact and builds up in cost. I would leave it as it is, but the Drilling Platform approach is something I agree with however. You are missing the point. True new players get ganked because they haven't learned all the game mechanics yet and make poor choices. It is not their fault they are ignorant of some of the sometimes arcane game mechanics in Eve. Getting ganked is part of the learning curve of Eve and perfectly fine and normal and nothing to be ashamed of. There is no shame in losing to someone who has been playing the game for years, has access to better ships, and knows the game mechanics much better than you. In fact, new players that are ganked are more likely to subscribe to the game so this isn't the issue. The problem is that once they are over that initial hurdle and decide they want to be miners, they are faced with a market for ore that is suppressed by the oversupply of ore by the Skiff fleets. The only way to compete is to join them and multibox as much as possible. The OP was thinking outside the box and was looking for ways to disrupt his competitors, and the sad truth there is no way possible. Any attempt to gank the Skiffs will result in more losses for the OP than his opponents. The game mechanics are such that veterans can mine with impunity, and new and solo miners can do nothing about it. There is a big difference between Eve being "unfair" in the sense it is not a balanced PvP game where the sides are equalized, and that certain game mechanics unfairly hurt certain types of players. It's a tough balance because the whole point of a persistent MMO is that you gain advantage for your efforts and time spent playing, but if you let the veterans gain too much of an advantage new players will just not play as they cannot be competitive. Off-grid boosts (both combat and mining) are one of these situations where veteran players gain an advantage from training a boosting alt and buying a boosting ship, yet it has no counter and adds little additional gameplay other than making having an off-grid booster mandatory to be competitive. Tanked Skiff fleets also have no counter which is a failure of game design. Skiff fleets make for boring, uninteractive gameplay. I think near-invulnerable mining should be possible however, but it should not be such that is the most profitable way to mine given how content-phobic the Skiff is. We can argue about how many Skiffs and Skiff fleets are mining in highsec today, and whether that it too much, but given both of us don't have access to the real numbers, it is pointless. But it does seem in my travels that Skiffs fleets are common, and the Skiff itself is by far the most used mining ship seen in highsec today, and that mining still pays terribly compared to other activities as a new/solo player, and is only viable when done AFK or when multiboxing. Whether these facts merits a change to the tank/yield balance of the Skiff is up to CCP of course, but I would not be at all surprised to see a slight tweak to make the other mining ships more attractive in comparison to the Skiff as part of the upcoming barge rebalance. Why Do They Gank?
Nitshe Razvedka 914	Posted - 2016.07.19 09:00:31 - [33] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: A new player can get into a Procurer and then train for a Skiff, you don't gank Procurers much either. But in any case the people who get ganked the most are new players, if you did care about them you would not gank them and up your efforts on the vets, but you don't. Furthermore as you chaps have pointed out so many times on other threads Eve is not fair, why does it suddenly matter when it comes to a mining ship that those who want to be hard to kill have a choice to jump into. The small cargo bay is a pain and the yield impact is an impact and builds up in cost. I would leave it as it is, but the Drilling Platform approach is something I agree with however. You are missing the point. True new players get ganked because they haven't learned all the game mechanics yet and make poor choices. It is not their fault they are ignorant of some of the sometimes arcane game mechanics in Eve. Getting ganked is part of the learning curve of Eve and perfectly fine and normal and nothing to be ashamed of. There is no shame in losing to someone who has been playing the game for years, has access to better ships, and knows the game mechanics much better than you. In fact, new players that are ganked are more likely to subscribe to the game so this isn't the issue. The problem is that once they are over that initial hurdle and decide they want to be miners, they are faced with a market for ore that is suppressed by the oversupply of ore by the Skiff fleets. The only way to compete is to join them and multibox as much as possible. The OP was thinking outside the box and was looking for ways to disrupt his competitors, and the sad truth there is no way possible. Any attempt to gank the Skiffs will result in more losses for the OP than his opponents. The game mechanics are such that veterans can mine with impunity, and new and solo miners can do nothing about it. There is a big difference between Eve being "unfair" in the sense it is not a balanced PvP game where the sides are equalized, and that certain game mechanics unfairly hurt certain types of players. It's a tough balance because the whole point of a persistent MMO is that you gain advantage for your efforts and time spent playing, but if you let the veterans gain too much of an advantage new players will just not play as they cannot be competitive. Off-grid boosts (both combat and mining) are one of these situations where veteran players gain an advantage from training a boosting alt and buying a boosting ship, yet it has no counter and adds little additional gameplay other than making having an off-grid booster mandatory to be competitive. Tanked Skiff fleets also have no counter which is a failure of game design. Skiff fleets make for boring, uninteractive gameplay. I think near-invulnerable mining should be possible however, but it should not be such that is the most profitable way to mine given how content-phobic the Skiff is. We can argue about how many Skiffs and Skiff fleets are mining in highsec today, and whether that it too much, but given both of us don't have access to the real numbers, it is pointless. But it does seem in my travels that Skiffs fleets are common, and the Skiff itself is by far the most used mining ship seen in highsec today, and that mining still pays terribly compared to other activities as a new/solo player, and is only viable when done AFK or when multiboxing. Whether these facts merits a change to the tank/yield balance of the Skiff is up to CCP of course, but I would not be at all surprised to see a slight tweak to make the other mining ships more attractive in comparison to the Skiff as part of the upcoming barge rebalance. Buugger me Pedro, is this how you talk to your mates when discussing the footy match. Make your friends swim through war n peace for an answer? Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 2928	Posted - 2016.07.19 09:17:57 - [34] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: I took out a war target mining in a Skiff. Does that count? I too took out a wt mining in a skiff. Well I wasn't actually mining I had a neut fitted but still it counts right? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1909	Posted - 2016.07.19 09:36:33 - [35] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: A new player can get into a Procurer and then train for a Skiff, you don't gank Procurers much either. But in any case the people who get ganked the most are new players, if you did care about them you would not gank them and up your efforts on the vets, but you don't. Furthermore as you chaps have pointed out so many times on other threads Eve is not fair, why does it suddenly matter when it comes to a mining ship that those who want to be hard to kill have a choice to jump into. The small cargo bay is a pain and the yield impact is an impact and builds up in cost. I would leave it as it is, but the Drilling Platform approach is something I agree with however. You are missing the point. True new players get ganked because they haven't learned all the game mechanics yet and make poor choices. It is not their fault they are ignorant of some of the sometimes arcane game mechanics in Eve. Getting ganked is part of the learning curve of Eve and perfectly fine and normal and nothing to be ashamed of. There is no shame in losing to someone who has been playing the game for years, has access to better ships, and knows the game mechanics much better than you. In fact, new players that are ganked are more likely to subscribe to the game so this isn't the issue. The problem is that once they are over that initial hurdle and decide they want to be miners, they are faced with a market for ore that is suppressed by the oversupply of ore by the Skiff fleets. The only way to compete is to join them and multibox as much as possible. The OP was thinking outside the box and was looking for ways to disrupt his competitors, and the sad truth there is no way possible. Any attempt to gank the Skiffs will result in more losses for the OP than his opponents. The game mechanics are such that veterans can mine with impunity, and new and solo miners can do nothing about it. There is a big difference between Eve being "unfair" in the sense it is not a balanced PvP game where the sides are equalized, and that certain game mechanics unfairly hurt certain types of players. It's a tough balance because the whole point of a persistent MMO is that you gain advantage for your efforts and time spent playing, but if you let the veterans gain too much of an advantage new players will just not play as they cannot be competitive. Off-grid boosts (both combat and mining) are one of these situations where veteran players gain an advantage from training a boosting alt and buying a boosting ship, yet it has no counter and adds little additional gameplay other than making having an off-grid booster mandatory to be competitive. Tanked Skiff fleets also have no counter which is a failure of game design. Skiff fleets make for boring, uninteractive gameplay. I think near-invulnerable mining should be possible however, but it should not be such that is the most profitable way to mine given how content-phobic the Skiff is. We can argue about how many Skiffs and Skiff fleets are mining in highsec today, and whether that it too much, but given both of us don't have access to the real numbers, it is pointless. But it does seem in my travels that Skiffs fleets are common, and the Skiff itself is by far the most used mining ship seen in highsec today, and that mining still pays terribly compared to other activities as a new/solo player, and is only viable when done AFK or when multiboxing. Whether these facts merits a change to the tank/yield balance of the Skiff is up to CCP of course, but I would not be at all surprised to see a slight tweak to make the other mining ships more attractive in comparison to the Skiff as part of the upcoming barge rebalance. Pedro, you and your mates have imposed the need to fit for tank and not for yield, people make a choice to fit for yield or use a ship more suited for yield. I know that outside of the heavily ganked systems people fit more for yield and use the other ships. Since the Goons got kicked from Deklin I have noticed a lot more hisec miners, I even saw a Goon in a retreiver fitted totally for yield, I ship scanned him as I was going to gank him. Mining ore in hisec has always been and always will be low reward play and there is enough demand to maintain the price we have now. Being ganked is not great content for a miner, I don't think its much content for a ganker either, but thats just me, its a challenge to gank a Skiff and a challenge to go after people who use them, do you have to have everything easy peasey. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2629	Posted - 2016.07.19 10:30:08 - [36] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Pedro, you and your mates have imposed the need to fit for tank and not for yield, people make a choice to fit for yield or use a ship more suited for yield. I know that outside of the heavily ganked systems people fit more for yield and use the other ships. Since the Goons got kicked from Deklin I have noticed a lot more hisec miners, I even saw a Goon in a retreiver fitted totally for yield, I ship scanned him as I was going to gank him. Mining ore in hisec has always been and always will be low reward play and there is enough demand to maintain the price we have now. Being ganked is not great content for a miner, I don't think its much content for a ganker either, but thats just me, its a challenge to gank a Skiff and a challenge to go after people who use them, do you have to have everything easy peasey. What does any of this have to do with the fact that Skiff fleets immune to the actions of other players plague highsec ice and asteroid belts? Eve is a competitive game where players jockey for resources on many different levels, both directly and indirectly. There are counters, feints, traps, and straight out fighting for the bounty of New Eden almost everywhere - except in highsec mining for some reason. Miners have no choice right now but to multibox as many Skiffs as they can to out-Skiff the Skiff fleets of their rivals as the OP's question reveals. As I said, the fix for this uninspired gameplay and failed game design does not have to be to make Skiffs useless or explodable. I would keep a mining ship that is essentially immune to ganking as a tool in the miner's tool chest. But better mining yield through buffs to the other ships, new types of mining, and/or lucrative mining infrastructure is what is needed to break the stranglehold of the Skiff fleet and empower the new and solo miners of highsec to be able to do something to compete with the multiboxers other than get more accounts and multibox harder. I think I have made my point and the OP's question has been answered. Mining is long overdue for a shake-up however, and when CCP turns their mind to things and revamp a whole mechanic they tend to infuse it with a good dose of the essence of Eve - player-driven conflict. I fully expect the Skiff and multiboxing Skiff fleets not to be so dominant and immune to disruption as they are today, when they are through. Why Do They Gank?
Nitshe Razvedka 915	Posted - 2016.07.19 12:00:38 - [37] - Quote Time for pilly pill pills Pedro, nurse will wheel you up to the Intergalactic Ward - where all the girls will take you seriously. Even Nitshe takes some time out there. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
afk phone Repo Industries 9	Posted - 2016.07.19 15:17:51 - [38] - Quote Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. In respects to fair play: There is a huge discrepancy between the cost of a hulk and the price of the cats it takes to gank it. The skiff is exactly the same but the inverse. It seems balanced to me. OP - skiff ganking isn't a thing for math reasons. There is no magical trick to beat them. Pick an easier target (there are many out there) or pay the toll. Ganking is ALL ABOUT math and has little to do with anything else. Most but not all equations work out in the gankers favor. Don't dwell on (or in Pedro's case whine about) the few edge cases where the math isn't heavily in your favor. Your chosen eve profession has both juicy low hanging fruit and some coconuts that don't crack so easy!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1910	Posted - 2016.07.19 15:39:48 - [39] - Quote afk phone wrote: Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. In respects to fair play: There is a huge discrepancy between the cost of a hulk and the price of the cats it takes to gank it. The skiff is exactly the same but the inverse. It seems balanced to me. OP - skiff ganking isn't a thing for math reasons. There is no magical trick to beat them. Pick an easier target (there are many out there) or pay the toll. Ganking is ALL ABOUT math and has little to do with anything else. Most but not all equations work out in the gankers favor. Don't dwell on (or in Pedro's case whine about) the few edge cases where the math isn't heavily in your favor. Your chosen eve profession has both juicy low hanging fruit and some coconuts that don't crack so easy! What a spot on post COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
afk phone Repo Industries 10	Posted - 2016.07.19 15:52:31 - [40] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Pedro, you and your mates have imposed the need to fit for tank and not for yield, people make a choice to fit for yield or use a ship more suited for yield. I know that outside of the heavily ganked systems people fit more for yield and use the other ships. Since the Goons got kicked from Deklin I have noticed a lot more hisec miners, I even saw a Goon in a retreiver fitted totally for yield, I ship scanned him as I was going to gank him. Mining ore in hisec has always been and always will be low reward play and there is enough demand to maintain the price we have now. Being ganked is not great content for a miner, I don't think its much content for a ganker either, but thats just me, its a challenge to gank a Skiff and a challenge to go after people who use them, do you have to have everything easy peasey. What does any of this have to do with the fact that Skiff fleets immune to the actions of other players plague highsec ice and asteroid belts? Eve is a competitive game where players jockey for resources on many different levels, both directly and indirectly. There are counters, feints, traps, and straight out fighting for the bounty of New Eden almost everywhere - except in highsec mining for some reason. Miners have no choice right now but to multibox as many Skiffs as they can to out-Skiff the Skiff fleets of their rivals as the OP's question reveals. As I said, the fix for this uninspired gameplay and failed game design does not have to be to make Skiffs useless or explodable. I would keep a mining ship that is essentially immune to ganking as a tool in the miner's tool chest. But better mining yield through buffs to the other ships, new types of mining, and/or lucrative mining infrastructure is what is needed to break the stranglehold of the Skiff fleet and empower the new and solo miners of highsec to be able to do something to compete with the multiboxers other than get more accounts and multibox harder. I think I have made my point and the OP's question has been answered. Mining is long overdue for a shake-up however, and when CCP turns their mind to things and revamp a whole mechanic they tend to infuse it with a good dose of the essence of Eve - player-driven conflict. I fully expect the Skiff and multiboxing Skiff fleets not to be so dominant and immune to disruption as they are today, when they are through. I look at it the other way. I buy ice products. Let them out-skiff each other until POS fuel is free! I've done both mining and ganking. Mining is "uninspired gameplay". There is no joy or excitement in it. Ganking is "uninspired gameplay". Once the math is solved there is no joy or excitement in it. One guy warps to a belt and blasts defensless roids and one guy warps to a belt and blasts defensless barges. The only difference is the spelling and graphical depiction of the 2 items being removed from the game. Historically gankers are better thinkers and adapt the mechanics of the game to their needs better than miners. I think it's funny that you are crying that gankers are 'defenseless' against the tank of the skiff and get all upset. The procurer is defenseless against the catalyst (kb data proves this to a high degree of certainty). I have yet to see you rail against the unfairness of the procurer,s daily slaughter. Your version of fair comes across as somewhat skewed. In the words of your ilk: Skiffs aren't immune to ganking it just takes effort. TL/DR - hahahahahahaha - cheap ice for all - woot!

Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2633	Posted - 2016.07.19 15:54:54 - [41] - Quote afk phone wrote: Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. It takes at least two months of training to get into a Skiff but again, the point is not that the Skiff is too safe. The new player can fly a Procurer which is also pretty safe and probably even more economically resistant to being ganked. The point is it enables multiboxing fleets that a single account, new player cannot compete with or disrupt. Single account mining is not viable as a profession for new players, and even for veteran single account players, because of the un-disruptable Skiff fleets seen all over highsec. Mining as a profession is in a woeful state and failing as a content generator, not to mention practically untouched for the last 13 years. It is due for a facelift. It's selfish people like you that grief these poor new players out of the game by leveraging your economic advantage against them. Expecting some new player to drop 50 or 100 bucks on PLEX just to be able to keep up with you? And you wonder why Eve has trouble retaining new players when some wide-eyed novice miner realizes they need multiple accounts, off-grid boosters, and multiple months of training even to start to compete with the veteran players hoovering up the ice fields with their impervious Skiff fleets. Shame on you. afk phone wrote: Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. That is a blindingly obvious assessment. Skiffs should exist, I have no problem with an extremely tanky mining ship. They just are too efficient at what they do now and thus have become dominant. CCP hates that when one ship becomes used to the exclusion of all the others and for good reason as that is a sign things are not balanced. Expect the Skiff to come out on the short end of the upcoming mining ship rebalance in the Fall if it is really as dominant as I think it is. Why Do They Gank?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1910	Posted - 2016.07.19 18:35:03 - [42] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: afk phone wrote: Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. It takes at least two months of training to get into a Skiff but again, the point is not that the Skiff is too safe. The new player can fly a Procurer which is also pretty safe and probably even more economically resistant to being ganked. The point is it enables multiboxing fleets that a single account, new player cannot compete with or disrupt. Single account mining is not viable as a profession for new players, and even for veteran single account players, because of the un-disruptable Skiff fleets seen all over highsec. Mining as a profession is in a woeful state and failing as a content generator, not to mention practically untouched for the last 13 years. It is due for a facelift. It's selfish people like you that grief these poor new players out of the game by leveraging your economic advantage against them. Expecting some new player to drop 50 or 100 bucks on PLEX just to be able to keep up with you? And you wonder why Eve has trouble retaining new players when some wide-eyed novice miner realizes they need multiple accounts, off-grid boosters, and multiple months of training even to start to compete with the veteran players hoovering up the ice fields with their impervious Skiff fleets. Shame on you. afk phone wrote: Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. That is a blindingly obvious assessment. Skiffs should exist, I have no problem with an extremely tanky mining ship. They just are too efficient at what they do now and thus have become dominant. CCP hates that when one ship becomes used to the exclusion of all the others and for good reason as that is a sign things are not balanced. Expect the Skiff to come out on the short end of the upcoming mining ship rebalance in the Fall if it is really as dominant as I think it is. Other ships are being used, outside of the ice belts Skiff's are not used any where to the same degree, its just because you chaps focus on the ice belts and certain systems. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 265	Posted - 2016.07.19 18:48:38 - [43] - Quote afk phone wrote: Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. In respects to fair play: There is a huge discrepancy between the cost of a hulk and the price of the cats it takes to gank it. The skiff is exactly the same but the inverse. It seems balanced to me. OP - skiff ganking isn't a thing for math reasons. There is no magical trick to beat them. Pick an easier target (there are many out there) or pay the toll. Ganking is ALL ABOUT math and has little to do with anything else. Most but not all equations work out in the gankers favor. Don't dwell on (or in Pedro's case whine about) the few edge cases where the math isn't heavily in your favor. Your chosen eve profession has both juicy low hanging fruit and some coconuts that don't crack so easy! The Skiff has between 90% and 100% of the Mackiaw's yield, depending on if you put a DCU on. The Hulk does a little better. If you set it to orbit something, it's effectively immune to bumping. The Hulk can do that too: trade the mining upgrades for aux power cores (I will do-barely!), but it won't outrun a cat. It costs an insane amount to gank. The obvious question is: if other ships are so viable with so much more yield, why do the spreadsheeting AFK multiboxers use skiffs in ice fields in dangerous places? And the answer is: even with the reduced yield of the Skiff, it's better to park a fleet of skiffs in an ice belt than it is to run a couple of Mackinaws or Hulks in an ore belt the gankers always ignore. Skiffs are broken. A signature :o
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2016.07.19 21:34:32 - [44] - Quote Before I respond to any specific points I'm going to point out that new players can get into a procurer in a week, and procurors are almost as tanky as a skiff. You keep acting like skiffs.procurers are only available to veterans. New players can fly procs, they just don't choose to. Black Pedro wrote: Allowing players to remove themselves as economically viable targets simply by flying a Skiff means that gankers focus all their attention on new players (and veteran players who are chasing more yield or a larger ore hold). Given new players don't fly Skiffs, I don't see how making Skiffs less attractive to fly is going to put new players at more risk. If anything, by making veterans viable targets again they would be more safe from attack. Skiffs are not actually economically immune. The isk return on a gank is dependent on the modules used (something you never acknowledge) A faction fitting skiff especially one using a faction strip/ice miner is extremely profitable to gank. Thing is nobody in their right mind would ever use a expensive fit on a exhumer or barge, because of how insanely vulnerable miners are. Also extending your reasoning almost all ships are economically immune to ganking, the exception being ships fitted with enormously expensive mods or that are carrying expensive crap in their hold. Black Pedro wrote: But the real impact on new players is not the rare chance they might get ganked and lose a ship they can replace in a hour or two of mining. It is the economic problem they face competing with bot/bot-aspirant/multiboxing fleets who drive down the price of their efforts. If you allow 100% economic safety from ganking as a Skiff fleet has, it allows a rich veterans to scale up their efforts in parallel out-competing new players for gathering ore. If such a fleet was at least at some risk, the multiboxer would have to trade-off safety vs. attention vs. effort to run such an operation. As it is, there is no trade-off or downside to just running as many Skiffs as your patience and computer hardware will allow as there is no risk of interference from other players. There is zero data to support this. Ore prices aren't behaving in the way you describe. If you look at the price of ore going back to the barge rework you'd notice that the price of ore seems to be directly related to the amount of warfare occurring and nothing else. For instance the price of ore has noticeably decreased since the end of world war bee. Granted "noticeably decreased" when talking about ore is actually very minor. So really if you wanted to help new players then you should go ** off some nullsec alliances and get another war going. Oh and before you respond with the idiotic "but if I gank miners I'm increasing the price of ore because new barges have to be made!" I will point out that the amount of destruction even at the peak of highsec miner ganking is insignificant compared to the amount of destruction caused by even the smallest of low/null wars. Plus the profit loss that a player suffers from losing a ship easily outweighs any pathetic price increase that might result. Quote: Highsec mining, and mining in general pay so poorly because of the ease of multiboxing. The economic safety of Skiffs in highsec just exacerbates the problem, and makes it tougher to get into the game. No. Highsec mining pays poorly because production is limited by the availability of megacite and noxcium. Also you're massively overestimating economic effect of multiboxers. Even if you count all of the multibox accounts, multiboxers still only comprise a small portion of the highsec mining population. The problem with your post is you have a vendetta against multiboxers and are bending the topic to justify that hatred. Yes multiboxers like skiffs. So does every solo miner and most fleet miners. Heck this entire thread could be rephrased as "why can't CCP make hulks and mackinaws profitable enough to justify their non-existent tank?"** After all the reason everyone uses skiffs is because the yield increase of macks and hulks does not surpass the profit loss from exploding.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1914	Posted - 2016.07.20 06:37:26 - [45] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Before I respond to any specific points I'm going to point out that new players can get into a procurer in a week, and procurors are almost as tanky as a skiff. You keep acting like skiffs.procurers are only available to veterans. New players can fly procs, they just don't choose to. Black Pedro wrote: Allowing players to remove themselves as economically viable targets simply by flying a Skiff means that gankers focus all their attention on new players (and veteran players who are chasing more yield or a larger ore hold). Given new players don't fly Skiffs, I don't see how making Skiffs less attractive to fly is going to put new players at more risk. If anything, by making veterans viable targets again they would be more safe from attack. Skiffs are not actually economically immune. The isk return on a gank is dependent on the modules used (something you never acknowledge) A faction fitting skiff especially one using a faction strip/ice miner is extremely profitable to gank. Thing is nobody in their right mind would ever use a expensive fit on a exhumer or barge, because of how insanely vulnerable miners are. Also extending your reasoning almost all ships are economically immune to ganking, the exception being ships fitted with enormously expensive mods or that are carrying expensive crap in their hold. Black Pedro wrote: But the real impact on new players is not the rare chance they might get ganked and lose a ship they can replace in a hour or two of mining. It is the economic problem they face competing with bot/bot-aspirant/multiboxing fleets who drive down the price of their efforts. If you allow 100% economic safety from ganking as a Skiff fleet has, it allows a rich veterans to scale up their efforts in parallel out-competing new players for gathering ore. If such a fleet was at least at some risk, the multiboxer would have to trade-off safety vs. attention vs. effort to run such an operation. As it is, there is no trade-off or downside to just running as many Skiffs as your patience and computer hardware will allow as there is no risk of interference from other players. There is zero data to support this. Ore prices aren't behaving in the way you describe. If you look at the price of ore going back to the barge rework you'd notice that the price of ore seems to be directly related to the amount of warfare occurring and nothing else. For instance the price of ore has noticeably decreased since the end of world war bee. Granted "noticeably decreased" when talking about ore is actually very minor. So really if you wanted to help new players then you should go ** off some nullsec alliances and get another war going. Oh and before you respond with the idiotic "but if I gank miners I'm increasing the price of ore because new barges have to be made!" I will point out that the amount of destruction even at the peak of highsec miner ganking is insignificant compared to the amount of destruction caused by even the smallest of low/null wars. Plus the profit loss that a player suffers from losing a ship easily outweighs any pathetic price increase that might result. Quote: Highsec mining, and mining in general pay so poorly because of the ease of multiboxing. The economic safety of Skiffs in highsec just exacerbates the problem, and makes it tougher to get into the game. No. Highsec mining pays poorly because production is limited by the availability of megacite and noxcium. Also you're massively overestimating economic effect of multiboxers. Even if you count all of the multibox accounts, multiboxers still only comprise a small portion of the highsec mining population. The problem with your post is you have a vendetta against multiboxers and are bending the topic to justify that hatred. Yes multiboxers like skiffs. So does every solo miner and most fleet miners. Heck this entire thread could be rephrased as "why can't CCP make hulks and mackinaws profitable enough to justify their non-existent tank?"** After all the reason everyone uses skiffs is because the yield increase of macks and hulks does not surpass the profit loss from exploding. Such an excellent post and right on the money. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2634	Posted - 2016.07.20 08:26:06 - [46] - Quote Crinnfika wrote: Before I respond to any specific points I'm going to point out that new players can get into a procurer in a week, and procurors are almost as tanky as a skiff. You keep acting like skiffs.procurers are only available to veterans. New players can fly procs, they just don't choose to. I specifically said this, most recently in my last post. For the fifth(?) time, the fact that the Skiff is extremely safe or that a new player can fly a Procurer is not the point. The point is that the economic immunity of the Skiff, along with its resistance to bumping and high tank, make it impossible for another player to disrupt. There is no counter to a Skiff fleet which is the question the OP asked and is the topic of this thread. You can claim this fact is somehow good for the game, but you cannot deny this provable, and admittedly intentional on the part of CCP, reality of the game mechanics. Crinnfika wrote: Skiffs are not actually economically immune. They are. Sure, there are the odd ones that are faction fit or have half-a-dozen PLEX in the hold you can claim are profitable to gank, but the typical T2- tanked Skiff that the game is balanced around is hilariously unprofitable to gank. Not even just unprofitable as most miners are to gank, but so costly you lose more than your opponent leaving you with nothing you can do to inflict more damage on your opponent than you lose. The fact that a few percent of the Skiffs out there are so badly fit does not help the OP and his desire to clear out a typical Skiff fleet from his system. If they are in the NPC corp, for which there is no game reason they shouldn't be, they are economically immune to him. Crinnfika wrote: There is zero data to support this. Ore prices aren't behaving in the way you describe. There is plenty of data to support my assertion that ore is oversupplied starting with the terrible ISK/h a highsec miner earns. What does a max-skill, boosted Hulk ice miner earn in highsec today? 30M ISK/h? That is pathetic compared to the income potential of almost any other profession, and in reality, a solo newer miner is probably getting closer to 20M ISK/h. The only way this becomes acceptable as an income is if you are only spending 10% of your time paying attention to your game client and the rest watching Netflix, or if you are multiboxing 10 or 12 clients in parallel. Neither of these situations are what most game designers would consider ideal. Last year, CCP banned ISBoxer in an attempt to lower the hard cap on the number of clients players could run at one time. This year, they explicitly started enforcing the prohibition on tiling multiple clients on a single screen that was so favoured by cheating multiboxing miners to boost their efficiency. Just because mining has always been this way does not mean there isn't a serious problem with the game design when the only way to compete is to multibox more Skiffs. Have some imagination. It doesn't have to be this way even if it has been this way for so long. There are many fixes that can be put in place to boost the viability of single account miners and do away with the tedium of multiboxing mining fleets and make a better, more engaging game for everyone. Certainly, I am sure CCP is unhappy with the current meta of the invulnerable Skiff fleets piloted by a single veteran taking so much of the profit and leaving new and solo miners with so little. Crinnfika wrote: The problem with your post is you have a vendetta against multiboxers and are bending the topic to justify that hatred. Lol, Vendetta. I have no problem with multiboxers who play by the rules (although, it should be noted that miners are notorious for using methods to cheat such as input broadcasting, client tiling and straight-out macros) but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with the game. I notice you did not refute any of my points illustrating how difficult it is for a new or solo miner and this is a problem for CCP who are desperately trying to get new players into the game. Something has to give, and with Drilling Platforms on the horizon, mining is due for a shake up. Given the current trend of CCP cracking down on multiboxing, I wouldn't be surprise if those Skiff fleets will just be remembered as part of a bygone era as they are nerfed into irrelevance, or surpassed with newer, more profitable forms of mining accessible to solo account players. Don't worry, I am sure you will have plenty of time to sell your Skiff fleet and adapt to the new mining age that is coming. Who knows, you may even like not having to run so many accounts and being able to make a decent living with just a couple. Why Do They Gank?
Ramses Davaham Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.07.20 09:33:48 - [47] - Quote You seem a little bit lopsided on your maths for ice mining. Ship - Timing (Number of blocks based on strip miner hard points) =================================================== Skiff - 60 Seconds per block (1) Mackinaw - 90 Seconds per block (2) Hulk - 120 Seconds per block (3) These are atypical times and may not be on the mark as skills/fits change them up. The best fit/boosts will knock those timers down by 50% (Indy Cmd Ships IV , Good Leadership Skills to use Tech 2 Mindlinks, Yeti Implant on Skiff, modest tank with a couple of ice mining upgrades, Tech 2 Ice Harvesters) Basically at a starting point its not that profitable to mine ice unless your going full time into it....you're too slow to do it. Ore mining is more profitable if your solo'ing it without a boosting ship - depends on what your doing and what your mining. Bottom line: Skiff's could chew a block down every 30 seconds. You could literally clear an ice field in a fraction of the time with a fleet of them with a well placed Orca. - Only difficulty is cargo handling as they gather it so damn fast it becomes a bit of a hazard. (takes me 2-3 minutes to run out of space..if not sooner!) Truth be told..using a hulk is stupid. Mackinaw at least makes sense as it has best cargo capacity...but a skiff will outrun you easily....in-spite of the pea sized cargo bay. Ice Mining is only profitable if you can do it fast and efficiently...add to that compression to kick the value up considerably. As for Ore Mining? Different ball game overall. You're likely going to find skiffs more often in Ice Belts..at least the pilots who know what they are doing. Skiffs are tiny.....but they get a tank and a drone bay to make up for that tiny nature....they used to be the adept prospect/endurance we have now....so its future is not entirely certain as CCP has indicated they are changing it again soon (TM) Are they immune? Depends - if your ganking for profit....hard to argue any kind of profit honestly.... but they can be blown up..just like any other ship....but who cares if you can take the idiot out in the retriever next door. :) Just setting some facts straight. :) (carry on! - good read to be sure) TLDR Version - Skiffs are only profitable if they have the right skills with boosts..otherwise...its just the wrong ship for the job.
afk phone Repo Industries 20	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:33:44 - [48] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: afk phone wrote: Pedro - you're going on about the skiff being out of reach for new players. How long does it actually take to train into a skiff (assume +3 attribute implants, 1 remap, no in jectors). Not that long really. Cut the "but the children" crap - it's negligible training to get into a skiff. Skiff's don't hurt the newbro, they give him something to train for. Assuming the a guy has a job, a credit card (pay pal.... whatever), and a desire to be in a skiff - He can use skill injectors. Using skill injectors, the time sink for a newbro to be in a skiff is actually the time it takes to download the game. It takes at least two months of training to get into a Skiff but again, the point is not that the Skiff is too safe. The new player can fly a Procurer which is also pretty safe and probably even more economically resistant to being ganked. The point is it enables multiboxing fleets that a single account, new player cannot compete with or disrupt. Single account mining is not viable as a profession for new players, and even for veteran single account players, because of the un-disruptable Skiff fleets seen all over highsec. Mining as a profession is in a woeful state and failing as a content generator, not to mention practically untouched for the last 13 years. It is due for a facelift. It's selfish people like you that grief these poor new players out of the game by leveraging your economic advantage against them. Expecting some new player to drop 50 or 100 bucks on PLEX just to be able to keep up with you? And you wonder why Eve has trouble retaining new players when some wide-eyed novice miner realizes they need multiple accounts, off-grid boosters, and multiple months of training even to start to compete with the veteran players hoovering up the ice fields with their impervious Skiff fleets. Shame on you. afk phone wrote: Here's what I think the skiff does for miners. They have an option to go with a tanked mining ship that minimizes the chance to be the victim of an uncontested gank. Being that there is little recourse once a gank is in progress (I'll assume a gank squad can do math and afford catalysts), it seems fair that a miner can choose to fly in a gank resistant barge. That is a blindingly obvious assessment. Skiffs should exist, I have no problem with an extremely tanky mining ship. They just are too efficient at what they do now and thus have become dominant. CCP hates that when one ship becomes used to the exclusion of all the others and for good reason as that is a sign things are not balanced. Expect the Skiff to come out on the short end of the upcoming mining ship rebalance in the Fall if it is really as dominant as I think it is. So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please???
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:40:09 - [49] - Quote afk phone wrote: So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please??? Shockingly enough, not all players in EVE gank... And outside of suicide ganking, the catalyst is one of the most underpowered destroyers in the game. If anything it could use a buff. I mean if you breathe on it too hard it explodes...
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2639	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:52:37 - [50] - Quote afk phone wrote: So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please??? Hey, I am just telling you the reality whether you like it or not. When Drakes were the only battlecruiser that was used they were nerfed into the ground. For a time Eve was Ishtars online until... the Ishtar was (incrementally) nerfed into the ground. Long ago the Hulk was almost the only miner used in the game so CCP rebalanced them so they would all have a role and be used. For a time the Svipul was the overwhelming choice for everyone to fly and well, I am sure they'll get around to fixing that some day. If Skiffs are the dominant miner they will be tweaked to be less attractive during the upcoming rebalance. That might mean nerfs for the Skiff, or it could mean buffs to the underused ships, but CCP is going to try to put the use of the ships back into some balance. As to Catalysts being the dominant destroyer, that may be true for ganking but I see plenty of other destroyers flying around and being used for other purposes in the game. If some are in fact underused, I see no problem with CCP buffing their DPS or other stats so that they find more use by gankers and/or others. No ship left behind I say. Why Do They Gank?

Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 270	Posted - 2016.07.22 12:58:06 - [51] - Quote inb4 the hulk gets a bastion module and becomes the new marauder to make it balanced w/ the skiff
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.24 19:09:34 - [52] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: afk phone wrote: So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please??? Hey, I am just telling you the reality whether you like it or not. When Drakes were the only battlecruiser that was used they were nerfed into the ground. For a time Eve was Ishtars online until... the Ishtar was (incrementally) nerfed into the ground. Long ago the Hulk was almost the only miner used in the game so CCP rebalanced them so they would all have a role and be used. For a time the Svipul was the overwhelming choice for everyone to fly and well, I am sure they'll get around to fixing that some day. If Skiffs are the dominant miner they will be tweaked to be less attractive during the upcoming rebalance. That might mean nerfs for the Skiff, or it could mean buffs to the underused ships, but CCP is going to try to put the use of the ships back into some balance. As to Catalysts being the dominant destroyer, that may be true for ganking but I see plenty of other destroyers flying around and being used for other purposes in the game. If some are in fact underused, I see no problem with CCP buffing their DPS or other stats so that they find more use by gankers and/or others. No ship left behind I say. The Drake was used by big fleets due to large tank and decent range with reasonable damage, they were also used a lot to do level 4's and belt ratting for the same reason. For smaller gangs the Hurricane with its twin neuts and better damage and flexibility on ammo was preferred. The Ishtar was a whole different ball game and was based on the mechanic of the FC being given the control of all of the drones effectively. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2377	Posted - 2016.07.24 21:05:26 - [53] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Black Pedro wrote: afk phone wrote: So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please??? Hey, I am just telling you the reality whether you like it or not. When Drakes were the only battlecruiser that was used they were nerfed into the ground. For a time Eve was Ishtars online until... the Ishtar was (incrementally) nerfed into the ground. Long ago the Hulk was almost the only miner used in the game so CCP rebalanced them so they would all have a role and be used. For a time the Svipul was the overwhelming choice for everyone to fly and well, I am sure they'll get around to fixing that some day. If Skiffs are the dominant miner they will be tweaked to be less attractive during the upcoming rebalance. That might mean nerfs for the Skiff, or it could mean buffs to the underused ships, but CCP is going to try to put the use of the ships back into some balance. As to Catalysts being the dominant destroyer, that may be true for ganking but I see plenty of other destroyers flying around and being used for other purposes in the game. If some are in fact underused, I see no problem with CCP buffing their DPS or other stats so that they find more use by gankers and/or others. No ship left behind I say. The Drake was used by big fleets due to large tank and decent range with reasonable damage, they were also used a lot to do level 4's and belt ratting for the same reason. For smaller gangs the Hurricane with its twin neuts and better damage and flexibility on ammo was preferred. The Ishtar was a whole different ball game and was based on the mechanic of the FC being given the control of all of the drones effectively. Octopuses and Squids are both head-footed aquatic animals (cephalopods) but they differ in their physical characteristics, habitat and behavior. An octopus has a round head and a mantle along with eight arms. The arms are endowed with one or two rows of suckers but these never have hooks or sucker rings. Squids are also cephalopods with a triangular shaped head, a mantle and eight arms. Along with that they have two fins on their head and two tentacles. The arms of a squid are endowed with hooks and/or suckers or sucker rings. The tentacles are arranged in pairs. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 376	Posted - 2016.07.25 02:21:05 - [54] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: afk phone wrote: So are you saying the dominant gank catalyst should be nerfed into line with all other destroyers? I missed your whine post on the OP and dominance of the catalyst. Could you link it please??? Shockingly enough, not all players in EVE gank... And outside of suicide ganking, the catalyst is one of the most underpowered destroyers in the game. If anything it could use a buff. I mean if you breathe on it too hard it explodes... I don't gank all the time, but when I do, I use a Catalyst. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch that ship with some other person's 10 foot pole. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:09:58 - [55] - Quote Mortlake wrote: Octopuses and Squids are both head-footed aquatic animals (cephalopods) but they differ in their physical characteristics, habitat and behavior. An octopus has a round head and a mantle along with eight arms. The arms are endowed with one or two rows of suckers but these never have hooks or sucker rings. Squids are also cephalopods with a triangular shaped head, a mantle and eight arms. Along with that they have two fins on their head and two tentacles. The arms of a squid are endowed with hooks and/or suckers or sucker rings. The tentacles are arranged in pairs. Cust and paste for 5 likes. I find them great to eat by the way... PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 2955	Posted - 2016.07.25 08:38:38 - [56] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Mortlake wrote: Octopuses and Squids are both head-footed aquatic animals (cephalopods) but they differ in their physical characteristics, habitat and behavior. An octopus has a round head and a mantle along with eight arms. The arms are endowed with one or two rows of suckers but these never have hooks or sucker rings. Squids are also cephalopods with a triangular shaped head, a mantle and eight arms. Along with that they have two fins on their head and two tentacles. The arms of a squid are endowed with hooks and/or suckers or sucker rings. The tentacles are arranged in pairs. Copy and paste for 5 likes. I find them great to eat by the way... PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... A strawberry isn't an actual berry, but a banana is. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:07:39 - [57] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... A strawberry isn't an actual berry, but a banana is. They are still not OP, its just that certain people are not up to ganking them so are whining for a nerf. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 2955	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:45:27 - [58] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... A strawberry isn't an actual berry, but a banana is. They are still not OP, its just that certain people are not up to ganking them so are whining for a nerf. Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 09:59:04 - [59] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... A strawberry isn't an actual berry, but a banana is. They are still not OP, its just that certain people are not up to ganking them so are whining for a nerf. Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave. But gankers are still failing to gank Skiffs and are moaning for a nerf. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 2956	Posted - 2016.07.25 10:28:15 - [60] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dracvlad wrote: PS Skiffs are not OP, its gankers being useless... A strawberry isn't an actual berry, but a banana is. They are still not OP, its just that certain people are not up to ganking them so are whining for a nerf. Grapes explode when you put them in the microwave. But gankers are still failing to gank Skiffs and are moaning for a nerf. The World's Most Popular Fruit is the TOMATO. Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin

Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2384	Posted - 2016.07.25 10:35:04 - [61] - Quote The sea-based cone snail is one of the most deadly creatures in the world with a single fart able to cause death. The mule on the other hand has only 63 chromasomes and cannot reproduce works of fine art. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17026	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:15:02 - [62] - Quote Mortlake wrote: The mule on the other hand has only 63 chromasomes and cannot reproduce works of fine art. Can we leave tracey emin out of this please mort, itw way too early in the day. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 11:45:53 - [63] - Quote The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Drago Shouna Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 484	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:03:30 - [64] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Don't the bot mining fleets usually have an orca sitting around somewhere? There's not much point in having an Orca around these days apart from using it as a hauler.
Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2386	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:21:51 - [65] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable. I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 294	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:24:35 - [66] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. Not in terms of ganking...but the skiff is definitely OP... I mean seriously... Look at the stats When we have a mining ship that gets similar combat stats to a T2 Heavy Assault Cruiser.....AND IT CAN STILL MINE ICE AT THE SAME TIME.... It is OP...
Ima Wreckyou The Conference Elite CODE. 2666	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:26:45 - [67] - Quote I enjoy this thread a lot the Code ALWAYS wins Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1919	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:46:11 - [68] - Quote Mortlake wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable. I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with. Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends! As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits. The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really. EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Crinnfika Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2016.07.25 19:58:01 - [69] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: but the typical T2- tanked Skiff that the game is balanced around is hilariously unprofitable to gank. Not even just unprofitable as most miners are to gank, but so costly you lose more than your opponent leaving you with nothing you can do to inflict more damage on your opponent than you lose. And then comes the realization that T2-fitting combat ships aren't profitable to gank either. You act like skiffs are the only ships that can't be profitably ganked, when in reality most ships aren't "economically viable to gank." If you want to pick on ships for their difficulty to gank, you should go after Augoror Navy Issue because that things tank puts skiffs to shame. Black Pedro wrote: Last year, CCP banned ISBoxer in an attempt to lower the hard cap on the number of clients players could run at one time. This year, they explicitly started enforcing the prohibition on tiling multiple clients on a single screen that was so favoured by cheating multiboxing miners to boost their efficiency. Just because mining has always been this way does not mean there isn't a serious problem with the game design when the only way to compete is to multibox more Skiffs. Have some imagination. It doesn't have to be this way even if it has been this way for so long. There are many fixes that can be put in place to boost the viability of single account miners and do away with the tedium of multiboxing mining fleets and make a better, more engaging game for everyone. Certainly, I am sure CCP is unhappy with the current meta of the invulnerable Skiff fleets piloted by a single veteran taking so much of the profit and leaving new and solo miners with so little. Well then if what you say is true we ought to have seen a upward shift in ore prices after the multiboxer crackdown. Except oh wait the price of ore wasn't affected, at least not in any way large enough to distinguish it from standard price fluctuations. In fact in the past year the price of ore has gone down. hmmmm Quote: I have no problem with multiboxers who play by the rules (although, it should be noted that miners are notorious for using methods to cheat such as input broadcasting, client tiling and straight-out macros) but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with the game. Ah but that is not exclusive to miners. Heck I can think of a gank corp that use input broadcasted catalyst gangs. Something you probably are not aware of, since you tunnel vision so much on us darn evil miners. Quote: I notice you did not refute any of my points illustrating how difficult it is for a new or solo miner and this is a problem for CCP who are desperately trying to get new players into the game. Something has to give, and with Drilling Platforms on the horizon, mining is due for a shake up. And you've failed to explain to me how making miners more vulnerable is going to help said solo miners. Ganks hurt solo miners way more than multiboxers, because has you have pointed out repeatedly solo miners don't have the isk/hour that multiboxing has, which means getting ganked puts solo miners way farther back.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 284	Posted - 2016.07.29 02:01:21 - [70] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Mortlake wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable. I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with. Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends! As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits. The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really. EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag The other barges have dscan tank and local tank. The skiff has: Dscan tank Local tank Speed tank Buffer tank <- the reason skiffs can usually ignore gankers DPS tank A signature :o

Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1990	Posted - 2016.07.29 10:21:19 - [71] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Mortlake wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The Skiff is not OP, have a rotten tomato at your inability to gank it. What now? Who's saying Skiffs aren't gankable? Clearly that's not the case. What is true is that it may not necessarily be fun to do, or indeed profitable. I feel we could be friends if you stopped posting. I'd like that very much indeed. I have a closet with things in that I think you'd enjoy playing with. Fun of course they are fun to gank, its a challenge, do it with friends! As for being profitable, that is a decision by CCP that T2 fitted ships are not meant to be profitable to gank if its just the ship and its T2 fits. The problem is that most gankers see them as too difficult and don't bother and whine about it and call for nerfs so they can get easy kills, simple really. EDIT: The other ships are out of line, their tanks are at the level of a wet paper bag The other barges have dscan tank and local tank. The skiff has: Dscan tank Local tank Speed tank Buffer tank <- the reason skiffs can usually ignore gankers DPS tank The Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
afk phone Repo Industries 32	Posted - 2016.07.29 10:35:00 - [72] - Quote There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module. This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge) If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found.
Liek DarZ New Order Logistics CODE. 8	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:22:32 - [73] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment Or maybe, just maybe, the other ships do not focus on tank? So that the choice you make is a meaningful one - tank, yield or cargo. You know, that was the original idea CCP had when re-balancing the three tiers for barges/exhumers a few years ago. Make a choice - obviously, if you want tank, Procurer/Skiff is the way to go. Why would anyone be entitled to get a Mack/Hulk/Covetor/Retriever with more tank? Their focus is on a different aspect of the ship already. If they all got tanky, the Procurer/Skiff strength would be a less pronounced one.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1991	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:31:11 - [74] - Quote Liek DarZ wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Procurer has a buffer tank too, the others are all rubbish in terms of tank and need adjustment Or maybe, just maybe, the other ships do not focus on tank? So that the choice you make is a meaningful one - tank, yield or cargo. You know, that was the original idea CCP had when re-balancing the three tiers for barges/exhumers a few years ago. Make a choice - obviously, if you want tank, Procurer/Skiff is the way to go. Why would anyone be entitled to get a Mack/Hulk/Covetor/Retriever with more tank? Their focus is on a different aspect of the ship already. If they all got tanky, the Procurer/Skiff strength would be a less pronounced one. To be honest I think the balance is right on mining ships like you do. But if they want to see less Skiffs and Procurers because of reasons, such as uniformity in heavily ganked systems, if that is the case then the other ships need better tanks. My view is still that the balance of mining ships is about right. You will never see me in a Hulk, Coveter, Mackinaw or Retriever because I don't like to be an easy kill, I accept a lower yield. Some people operate the other ships fitted for yield and it is a valid choice in systems that do not see people like you, which is fine. Good to see you see it like that. Good post. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:32:38 - [75] - Quote afk phone wrote: There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module. This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge) If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found. Yes.....lets take my skiff, which is already the combat equivalent of a Heavy Assault Cruiser....and give it a module to make it 5 TIMES harder to kill....Basically the equivalent of a fully pimped out T3 cruiser fit for buffer.... Nothing could possibly go wrong with that... [/sarcasm] edit: I realize I'm in the weird minority that uses mining ships to mine other players during wardecs/etc rather than a traditional miner...but if you keep making these ships the single most powerful PvP ships in all of EVE I'm not going to be in the minority much longer...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1991	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:47:56 - [76] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: afk phone wrote: There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module. This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge) If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found. Yes.....lets take my skiff, which is already the combat equivalent of a Heavy Assault Cruiser....and give it a module to make it 5 TIMES harder to kill....Basically the equivalent of a fully pimped out T3 cruiser fit for buffer.... Nothing could possibly go wrong with that... [/sarcasm] edit: I realize I'm in the weird minority that uses mining ships to mine other players during wardecs/etc rather than a traditional miner...but if you keep making these ships the single most powerful PvP ships in all of EVE I'm not going to be in the minority much longer... I agree, we need to get away from this type of destroy each others game play black and white crap, I know that one part of me thinks that the gankers deserve something like this for mining ships having the tank of a wet paper bag for two and a half years after destroyers had their DPS buffed but no, destructive nerf / buff circles are not a good idea with the state of the user base, I certainly could not support anything like this just like you. The balance that he suggested 100m to 100m is not really any balance, the real balance you have to look at more than anything else is time and effort in the environment of hisec. I can see the point of view from the gankers that a max tanked skiff at 20 Catalysts is well not going to happen unless someone makes an especially important effort, however a poorly tanked Skiff is 8 Catalysts and we have seen them ganked. I feel that COE could come after me because I am a pain to them, but they have to make a special effort to kil me and that is fair, I certainly do not want to get back to the previous situation in that I refused to mine because all the mining ships were an utter joke. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 11:59:56 - [77] - Quote Ironically the easiest way to get CCP to re-balance the hulk, mackinaw, retriever, and covetor would be to follow the advice CODE. has been spouting all along. No not the silly mining permit part. Not even the being at the keyboard and paying careful attention "at all times" part... The flying only fully tanked procurers + skiffs bit. And if you must use an orca - fully tanking it and relying on the fleet hangar for storage space. Would the short term profits of miners drop? Yes, yes they would. But if you could get 90+% of miners on-board with this strategy - CCP's analysts would see that people were only using 2 mining ships and ignoring the other 4, and they would rush to "rebalance" the system in an effort to get people to actually use the other ships again. They do track these things - and they do seem to care about people not all using the exact same ship/fit. Also - mostly unrelated, but fun fact for miners: Although I realize it runs the risk of drifting off into space if you go afk and don't notice when it goes away - if you just fit a 1mn mwd to your procurer/skiff (almost no fitting required) and orbit the rock you are mining, you are nearly impossible to gank without an initial suicide tackle to shut your MWD off - which will both start the timer to call CONCORD in before the dps ships are on grid - and also buys you some extra time to react before you are actively being hit by the dps ships. If they try to both tackle and gank you with catalysts in the same move, they are going to lose a lot of dps because catalyst blasters are very short range - and by the time your mwd actually shuts off and you slow down they'll be well out of range and have to move to get back in range again....so at the very least you are making it as annoying and expensive as possible for them.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1991	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:11:52 - [78] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Ironically the easiest way to get CCP to re-balance the hulk, mackinaw, retriever, and covetor would be to follow the advice CODE. has been spouting all along. No not the silly mining permit part. Not even the being at the keyboard and paying careful attention "at all times" part... The flying only fully tanked procurers + skiffs bit. And if you must use an orca - fully tanking it and relying on the fleet hangar for storage space. Would the short term profits of miners drop? Yes, yes they would. But if you could get 90+% of miners on-board with this strategy - CCP's analysts would see that people were only using 2 mining ships and ignoring the other 4, and they would rush to "rebalance" the system in an effort to get people to actually use the other ships again. They do track these things - and they do seem to care about people not all using the exact same ship/fit. Also - mostly unrelated, but fun fact for miners: Although I realize it runs the risk of drifting off into space if you go afk and don't notice when it goes away - if you just fit a 1mn mwd to your procurer/skiff (almost no fitting required) and orbit the rock you are mining, you are nearly impossible to gank without an initial suicide tackle to shut your MWD off - which will both start the timer to call CONCORD in before the dps ships are on grid - and also buys you some extra time to react before you are actively being hit by the dps ships. If they try to both tackle and gank you with catalysts in the same move, they are going to lose a lot of dps because catalyst blasters are very short range - and by the time your mwd actually shuts off and you slow down they'll be well out of range and have to move to get back in range again....so at the very least you are making it as annoying and expensive as possible for them. The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs. My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max. I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.
Dirty Forum Alt Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 338	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:27:22 - [79] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs. My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max. I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used. Aye well fortunately/unfortunately (depends on your point of view I imagine) CCP doesn't listen to forum rants to get those statistics - their servers can quite easily track how many people are flying each type of ship lol. And honestly i see a lot of the non-tanky ships even in systems with gankers...people are quite stubborn in using them.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 1991	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:38:50 - [80] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The OP was being very clever in his initial post because he was playing up to CCP's attitude towards people all using the same ship type to meet his objective of reducing the tank of the Skiff. In this and the other threads I pointed out that outside of heavily ganked systems you see a lot less Skiffs, of course I use Skiffs. My Skiff sits out at around 17 Catalysts, from my prespective I would to be outside the ability of a multi-boxer such as the kusions and a couple of other players and the Skiff meets that requirement. Which is why I would be annoyed if CCP reduced its tank, it would be for me no fit for purpose. I want them to have to get a gang to kill me not multi box a load of toons with two players max. I don't normally leave the ships in space when I go AFK, but with a skiff it moves at around 224 m/s which is really nasty for a Catalyst 's DPS. Perhaps if the speed of the other ships was increased a bit that would help in making them more used. Aye well fortunately/unfortunately (depends on your point of view I imagine) CCP doesn't listen to forum rants to get those statistics - their servers can quite easily track how many people are flying each type of ship lol. And honestly i see a lot of the non-tanky ships even in systems with gankers...people are quite stubborn in using them. Funny enough I had a discussion with one in AG channel, I dropped in my not quite max tank Skiff fit and was told nah your yeld is crap, he then dropped in a yield fit Retriever and said I mine in out of the way systems and I use that, if I lose one I make it up very quickly and my yield is a lot better than yours. I was like yeah, sounds like a fair strategy. Yeah CCP will be keeping an eye on it at the server level, but they do read their forums at times. COHE, the Coalition of Hisec Entities is now in operation, time to make hisec work for people who operate there.

Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17123	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:43:51 - [81] - Quote afk phone wrote: There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module. This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge) If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found. they would still complain, they would want to fit a whole rack and make it a passive module, or as far as rolling the bonus into the hull. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26450	Posted - 2016.07.29 12:52:46 - [82] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: afk phone wrote: There should be a mining barge only module that improves buffer on average about 80%. Like a hic is able to fit a warp field generator and a covert ops frigate can fit a cov ops cloak. Create a Mining Buffer module. Make it cpu intensive such that a barge can't fit a full rack of mining upgrades AND the Mining Buffer module. This would bring final balance to the mining game. (Balance would be that it would take 100 mil worth of cats to gank 100 mil worth of barge) If +80% is too low, then it could be tweaked up over time until the actual balance point is found. they would still complain, they would want to fit a whole rack and make it a passive module, or as far as rolling the bonus into the hull. Mate, if Polaris built every one of the mining ships, some would complain about how they only have 99% resists. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Stoner Ed Grain Fields Inc. 0	Posted - 2016.08.04 09:27:44 - [83] - Quote I think procs and skiffs are awesome and a good alternative to switch to when there are gankers around. Miners mining in them, and then I mean the ones who actually mine actively, are not to fond on having to switch to them tho. Their ore holds fill up fast, specially with boosts and this often means more trips back and forth losing time. And time for a miner is money. And most of them don't like losing money so a lot will still stubbornly stick to their retrievers and macks and take the risk. Still tho, procs and skiffs can be ganked and have been. I've been lucky enough to see it happen. But it was a **** fit one they got and still took some effort. And that is where the problem lies. Effort. Gankers more of then not go for the easy kill and lack the resolve to do a complete job. Material and economic viability or sustainability is no excuse in my oppinion. If you a ganker you chose to do it and you do it the best you can. Do what ever you can to spread the gospel, reduce competition in belts and gain more recourses for yourself or whatever the reason is you do it. If it dont work, figure out how it does work.
Elite Harvester Elite Harvesters 64	Posted - 2016.08.06 03:12:36 - [84] - Quote Stoner Ed wrote: If you a ganker you chose to do it and you do it the best you can. Do what ever you can to spread the gospel, reduce competition in belts and gain more recourses for yourself or whatever the reason is you do it. If it dont work, figure out how it does work. Well said! I await your glorious Skiff killmails. Visit www.MinerBumping.com to find out how *you can help* save Highsec.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2124	Posted - 2016.08.11 09:01:53 - [85] - Quote Yesterday a Skiff was ganked in Wuos by 14 Catalysts, it is not on the killboards, some of you got off your lazy entitled ganker butts stopped your forum whining and actually did something in game. There is another Skiff that was ganked in the same system 15th July by 11 Catalysts, see you can do it if you have the will.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Fiddly Pop The Conference Elite CODE. 52	Posted - 2016.08.14 15:25:13 - [86] - Quote When people say it can't be done, we go and do it. https://zkillboard.com/kill/55556324/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55555663/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55555111/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55554009/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55553232/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55551840/ Thanks for the inspiration.
Nitshe Razvedka 1109	Posted - 2016.08.14 16:05:45 - [87] - Quote Slow one handed clap for Fiddle-wid-Poop. I trump your hapless skiff ganking efforts with this: https://zkillboard.com/kill/23900420/ Some delusional Codie called James315 somebody was killed in his Ishtar by 2 x Hulks and an Orca. No wonder he has hidden in retirement since 2012. Fail fit n fail codie. The shame, the ridicule......................... Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2174	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:08:27 - [88] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Slow one handed clap for Fiddle-wid-Poop. I trump your hapless skiff ganking efforts with this: https://zkillboard.com/kill/23900420/ Some delusional Codie called James somebody was killed in his Ishtar by 2 x Hulks and an Orca. No wonder he has hidden in retirement since 2012. Fail fit n fail codie. The shame, the ridicule......................... LMAO that is so funny... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2174	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:10:13 - [89] - Quote Fiddly Pop wrote: When people say it can't be done, we go and do it. https://zkillboard.com/kill/55556324/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55555663/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55555111/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55554009/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55553232/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/55551840/ Thanks for the inspiration. So there you go, respect for you for actually going off and doing it, now go and slap those whiners who called for a nerf to the Skiff. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Origo Lim The Conference Elite CODE. 0	Posted - 2016.08.16 02:42:22 - [90] - Quote I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ?

Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 252	Posted - 2016.08.16 02:51:06 - [91] - Quote Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? You should probably drop corp. HTFU
Origo Lim The Conference Elite CODE. 0	Posted - 2016.08.16 03:15:28 - [92] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: You should probably drop corp. Why ?
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 252	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:41:04 - [93] - Quote Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? Last time I was in TCE i was told that all the plebs were in NOL. Surprised to see someone from TCE in the crime and punishment sub-forum asking for help in theorycrafting a gank. The Kusion family inspires you to multibox gank and the best you come up with is skiffs? HTFU
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:25:14 - [94] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? Last time I was in TCE i was told that all the plebs were in NOL. Surprised to see someone from TCE in the crime and punishment sub-forum asking for help in theorycrafting a gank. The Kusion family inspires you to multibox gank and the best you come up with is skiffs? And how long were you in TCE? :P Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 254	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:00:54 - [95] - Quote Dom Arkaral wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? Last time I was in TCE i was told that all the plebs were in NOL. Surprised to see someone from TCE in the crime and punishment sub-forum asking for help in theorycrafting a gank. The Kusion family inspires you to multibox gank and the best you come up with is skiffs? And how long were you in TCE? :P Not long, moved on to war decs. Loyal asked me to join TCE because boney and warr were whining about how me and my friends were killing a significant amount of freighter traffic coming out of Jita. HTFU
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:33:23 - [96] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Dom Arkaral wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? Last time I was in TCE i was told that all the plebs were in NOL. Surprised to see someone from TCE in the crime and punishment sub-forum asking for help in theorycrafting a gank. The Kusion family inspires you to multibox gank and the best you come up with is skiffs? And how long were you in TCE? :P Not long, moved on to war decs. Loyal asked me to join TCE because boney and warr were whining about how me and my friends were killing a significant amount of freighter traffic coming out of Jita. TCE was 95% freighter ganks while NOL was 95% everything else. I miss those times tbh (had an alt in TCE) Learned a lot on what to do to get ganked hahah The "4 freighters an hour" era :D Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 258	Posted - 2016.08.16 17:09:24 - [97] - Quote Dom Arkaral wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Dom Arkaral wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Origo Lim wrote: I feel inspired by the deeds of Kusion family. I like the idea of solo ganking a Skiff; with multiple characters, of course. Lets say, six bombers. One with a scram, five with target painters. Will need to run the math to figure out the exact number of TPs needed tho... Six bombers will be able to kill any skiff in 0.5 system (provided that you use correct damage type). Will this work ? Last time I was in TCE i was told that all the plebs were in NOL. Surprised to see someone from TCE in the crime and punishment sub-forum asking for help in theorycrafting a gank. The Kusion family inspires you to multibox gank and the best you come up with is skiffs? And how long were you in TCE? :P Not long, moved on to war decs. Loyal asked me to join TCE because boney and warr were whining about how me and my friends were killing a significant amount of freighter traffic coming out of Jita. TCE was 95% freighter ganks while NOL was 95% everything else. I miss those times tbh (had an alt in TCE) Learned a lot on what to do to get ganked hahah The "4 freighters an hour" era :D Loyal was definitely talented and brought tons of content to a bynch of people. RIP HTFU
Nitshe Razvedka 1189	Posted - 2016.08.16 17:39:24 - [98] - Quote Loyalanon made fun of member of the EVE community who killed his child and committed suicide. He ridiculed this persons death in local to people who played with him. Ask CCP for details. Loyalanon made jokes about child **** on the Code website. Have screenshots and happy to provide to the proper authorities. People like loyal are a cancer on the game. He will not be missed by the majority of Eve. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:40:26 - [99] - Quote Stay relevant to the OP Nitshe, especially since talking about bans is breaking the rules. The past is behind for a reason. GFs Fiddly Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
Nitshe Razvedka 1214	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:51:05 - [100] - Quote Dom Arkaral wrote: Stay relevant to the OP Nitshe, especially since talking about bans is breaking the rules. The past is behind for a reason. GFs Fiddly Pity you never had the moral courage to keep him in check. Pity Jame315 never displayed leadership in keeping him in check. Hang your head in shame Dom then GTFO. And you lecture me on breaking rules. GTFO! Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 166	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:04:13 - [101] - Quote There is a reason why we call the Anti-Ganking community toxic and sadly enough there are numerous RL examples. In the words of James 315 himself on http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html: "So if allowing the miner to vent his profanities toward me in local saves his wife or children one extra beating, that's something I'll gladly take. The miner has to take it out on somebody, and I'd rather it be me than some household full of children out there." Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:05:56 - [102] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Dom Arkaral wrote: Stay relevant to the OP Nitshe, especially since talking about bans is breaking the rules. The past is behind for a reason. GFs Fiddly Pity you never had the moral courage to keep him in check. Pity Jame315 never displayed leadership in keeping him in check. Hang your head in shame Dom then GTFO. And you lecture me on breaking rules. GTFO! LOL how do I feel about that whole thing is not of your concern. I think we touched a nerve right here Faylee, especially when it comes to not telling some publord my feelings on a matter that I won't discuss further. I will not hang my head in shame for his actions, I will not GTFO as I like it here. You can go cry now Nitshe, you've been broken Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
Nitshe Razvedka 1214	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:12:57 - [103] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: There is a reason why we call the Anti-Ganking community toxic and sadly enough there are numerous RL examples. In the words of James 315 himself on http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html: "So if allowing the miner to vent his profanities toward me in local saves his wife or children one extra beating, that's something I'll gladly take. The miner has to take it out on somebody, and I'd rather it be me than some household full of children out there." Another codie who can't communicate without her masters brain. Deep cult brainwashing at play. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Nitshe Razvedka 1214	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:23:09 - [104] - Quote Dom Arkaral wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Dom Arkaral wrote: Stay relevant to the OP Nitshe, especially since talking about bans is breaking the rules. The past is behind for a reason. GFs Fiddly Pity you never had the moral courage to keep him in check. Pity Jame315 never displayed leadership in keeping him in check. Hang your head in shame Dom then GTFO. And you lecture me on breaking rules. GTFO! LOL how do I feel about that whole thing is not of your concern. I think we touched a nerve right here Faylee, especially when it comes to not telling some publord my feelings on a matter that I won't discuss further. I will not hang my head in shame for his actions, I will not GTFO as I like it here. You can go cry now Nitshe, you've been broken If you don't think loyal's behaviour was beyond the pale there is something broken in you. My moral compass is intact. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:32:20 - [105] - Quote Move on, do like everyone else lol Like I said above, how I feel is none of your concerns. What I do is up to me, and me only. Seeing your reaction to my responses, your compass needs a reality ajustement. You can throw everything you got at me if that makes you happy, but let it be known that no cares will be given Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 166	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:41:34 - [106] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: There is a reason why we call the Anti-Ganking community toxic and sadly enough there are numerous RL examples. In the words of James 315 himself on http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html: "So if allowing the miner to vent his profanities toward me in local saves his wife or children one extra beating, that's something I'll gladly take. The miner has to take it out on somebody, and I'd rather it be me than some household full of children out there." Another codie who can't communicate without her masters brain. Deep cult brainwashing at play. Another anti-ganker who cannot communicate without insults, lies and distortions. A couple of posts ago you questioned the leadership of James 315. Lo and behold, the situation in question is already covered by the CODE. No surprise really as the CODE. is the culmination of James 315 years of experience in playing EVE combined with a sharp insight in human nature. Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 259	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:49:10 - [107] - Quote The absolute fact is that Loyal was a good FC. He provided top notch entertainment to those around him. Another absolute fact is that ganking victims and those in the AG community both tossed out more real life threats to not only Loyal, but to anyone involved. Yeah what Loyal did was in bad taste but why paint him red when hes been a victim just as much if not more than what hes dished out. The difference is that Loyal and most content creators dont play the victim card and shrug it off as some idiotic pleb with cheeto stains on his keyboard, where you find that someone is witch hunted and put in center stage when they step out of line briefly. I understand that MANY people hated Loyal, but his comments that got him banned are equal to any real life threat made upon him. Wheres the balance? So lay off the moral high horse and look at it for what it really is. Behind a player that got banned for comments made, he was an ojtstanding player and a great fc.. I wasnt that close to him but he did more for me personally than anyone had done previously. HTFU
Nitshe Razvedka 1216	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:47:28 - [108] - Quote Who in the Anti-Ganking community "tossed out real life threats"? The AG channels are tightly moderated. I have NEVER heard an active AG ever give a RL threat in local either. I call BS. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 3008	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:52:16 - [109] - Quote Did I miss something in my absence from eve? What happened to loyal? Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:56:28 - [110] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Did I miss something in my absence from eve? What happened to loyal? Old news, new apologists. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 262	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:29:33 - [111] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Who in the Anti-Ganking community "tossed out real life threats"? The AG channels are tightly moderated. I have NEVER heard an active AG ever give a RL threat in local either. I call BS. Dont worry its not bs. Talk to any content creator and im sure they can share stories and tears.. Some filled with fits of rage that contain real life threats or inappropriate insults. Ive personally seen plenty of toxic behavior out of both AG and the prominant ganking groups and even extends to both "deviant" content creators and plain old victims. Just hypocritical that it seems like only those that are involved in emergent content get punished... And publicly hazed. If someone posted every edgy or inapproprite comment made to a carebear or victim there would be public outcry for banning. Flip that situation over where the ganker is the recipiant and everyone would say, "well its okay because they drove him to make those comments". Its 2016 people. If men can be women and vise versa, then i say we get fair treatment for all when handing down punishments and bans. HTFU
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:34:41 - [112] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Who in the Anti-Ganking community "tossed out real life threats"? The AG channels are tightly moderated. I have NEVER heard an active AG ever give a RL threat in local either. I call BS. Dont worry its not bs. Talk to any content creator and im sure they can share stories and tears.. Some filled with fits of rage that contain real life threats or inappropriate insults. Ive personally seen plenty of toxic behavior out of both AG and the prominant ganking groups and even extends to both "deviant" content creators and plain old victims. Just hypocritical that it seems like only those that are involved in emergent content get punished... And publicly hazed. If someone posted every edgy or inapproprite comment made to a carebear or victim there would be public outcry for banning. Flip that situation over where the ganker is the recipiant and everyone would say, "well its okay because they drove him to make those comments". Its 2016 people. If men can be women and vise versa, then i say we get fair treatment for all when handing down punishments and bans. You said RL threats, are you now adjusting that to toxic behaviour. Big difference. Police get called in for RL threats. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 538	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:38:29 - [113] - Quote Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. edit: And yes, I mean RL, out-of-game threats/comments. I've lost track of how many people have demanded my home address in the midst of their rants so they could "come teach me a lesson" - and as I say I am not even a ganker...
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:38:54 - [114] - Quote Before you tie yourself in knots, best kiss me goodnight and go off to bed. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:41:11 - [115] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. Give me some names of active Anti-Gankers, not minor or freighter pilots. Anti-Gankers. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 262	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:42:36 - [116] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Who in the Anti-Ganking community "tossed out real life threats"? The AG channels are tightly moderated. I have NEVER heard an active AG ever give a RL threat in local either. I call BS. Dont worry its not bs. Talk to any content creator and im sure they can share stories and tears.. Some filled with fits of rage that contain real life threats or inappropriate insults. Ive personally seen plenty of toxic behavior out of both AG and the prominant ganking groups and even extends to both "deviant" content creators and plain old victims. Just hypocritical that it seems like only those that are involved in emergent content get punished... And publicly hazed. If someone posted every edgy or inapproprite comment made to a carebear or victim there would be public outcry for banning. Flip that situation over where the ganker is the recipiant and everyone would say, "well its okay because they drove him to make those comments". Its 2016 people. If men can be women and vise versa, then i say we get fair treatment for all when handing down punishments and bans. You said RL threats, are you now adjusting that to toxic behaviour. Big difference. Police get called in for RL threats. Im equating them in the fact that according to CCP they are both not allowed. Thats the thing.. Content creators and deviants get rl threats all the time and shrug it off. HTFU
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 262	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:44:36 - [117] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. Give me some names of active Anti-Gankers, not minor or freighter pilots. Anti-Gankers. I cant procure any names because i could care less about rl threats from a pitiful online idiot. I dont generally save or screenshot those convos alrough i might have some in mails. I generally take these comments or insults as a comment card saying how well i did my job. Im sure someone here has a Dexter's bloodslide box filled with great insults and rl threats. HTFU
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 538	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:47:17 - [118] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Give me some names of active Anti-Gankers, not minor or freighter pilots. Anti-Gankers. I don't keep lists of that sort of thing....it really is so common I barely pay attention anymore. I also don't know who the "active" anti-gankers are tbh - there are 250-300 people in the channel at any given time when I've checked in - but only 5-10 ever talk, and not always the same ones... Also if I don't report them to CCP I'm not going to report them to you - I know they are just caught up in the passion of the moment and they don't really mean it, at least for the most part. As I say what Loyal did was different - he calmly and rationally took a real-life tragedy and trolled with it. He 100% deserved his ban, it isn't even close to the same thing. But it would still be a miracle if just being an anti-ganker stopped people from spewing hate-filled insults and threats, and getting carried away and going into RL-threat mode... At least on the modern internet.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 3009	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:50:16 - [119] - Quote I can personally confirm several counts of telling me exactly how I should kill myself in real life from dead wt's or baited targets while I was suspect (which was my favorite tears cause they had to shoot me to die) I have had 2 cases of a RL threat that I can recall. One was the usual I will find you garbage and the other was somebody who had been in a corp with me for a week or 2 and had some idea of where I actually lived city wise. I've never had this from suspect baiters ive killed. Merc crews I've dunked, Wormholers I've evicted (several promised me ingame retribution), Lowsec Gate campers we stomped (complaints of blobbing aside), NullSecers (Test Pilots back in their Catch days with hero tended to dock up claiming we were cyno fit caracal or tristan gangs) but never once has a combat fit ship outside of highsec or was a highsec dedicated pvper ever brought the game to RL for me. Oh plenty of forum alts have done so too ;) Basically a certain type of people in Highsec do tend to get lippy. Now I am aware of a lowsec PvPer getting personal with another but I wasn't the recepient Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 3009	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:52:24 - [120] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. Give me some names of active Anti-Gankers, not minor or freighter pilots. Anti-Gankers. I cant procure any names because i could care less about rl threats from a pitiful online idiot. I dont generally save or screenshot those convos alrough i might have some in mails. I generally take these comments or insults as a comment card saying how well i did my job. Im sure someone here has a Dexter's bloodslide box filled with great insults and rl threats. I tend to save all that stuff cause reasons butttttt sharing it isn't constructive. If they just had an off day they don't need me making it worse. If they are serious somebody will find it when they go through my things I guess :D Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin

Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:55:26 - [121] - Quote I have had only one RL threat, and he is on this thread. I took pity on him and sent his mail to Broadcast For Reps. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 3009	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:56:30 - [122] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. edit: And yes, I mean RL, out-of-game threats/comments. I've lost track of how many people have demanded my home address in the midst of their rants so they could "come teach me a lesson" - and as I say I am not even a ganker... Bob Dammm Isn't this a game? There is poor taste and there is the line most reasonable human beings know not to cross. I think if that's legit it's alllllll the wayyyyyyyyyyy back there Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:02:49 - [123] - Quote Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. edit: And yes, I mean RL, out-of-game threats/comments. I've lost track of how many people have demanded my home address in the midst of their rants so they could "come teach me a lesson" - and as I say I am not even a ganker... Bob Dammm Isn't this a game? There is poor taste and there is the line most reasonable human beings know not to cross. I think if that's legit it's alllllll the wayyyyyyyyyyy back there On a lighter note, congrates on reaching the 3000 likes. Not everyone wishes you dead. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 166	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:05:21 - [124] - Quote Check the Highsec Miner Grab Bag blogs on http://www.minerbumping.com/ for a good overview of what passes for acceptable discourse among miners and anti-gankers. Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Nitshe Razvedka 1217	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:11:57 - [125] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Check the Highsec Miner Grab Bag blogs on http://www.minerbumping.com/ for a good overview of what passes for acceptable discourse among miners and anti-gankers. A miner is not the same as an Anti-Ganker. And James315 plays with his photoshop cut-n-paste as much as his cheese-dik. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
NotTheSmartestCookie New Order Logistics CODE. 166	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:23:49 - [126] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Check the Highsec Miner Grab Bag blogs on http://www.minerbumping.com/ for a good overview of what passes for acceptable discourse among miners and anti-gankers. A miner is not the same as an Anti-Ganker. And James315 plays with his photoshop cut-n-paste as much as his cheese-dik. Still incapable of posting without insults I see, I guess that is just AG social norms.. The Highsec miner Grabbag contains numerous quotes from miners, anti-gankers and anti-ganking channels, check them yourself. Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman before you claim those aren't "real anti-gankers". Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time. Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3. Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Noragen Neirfallas Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance 3010	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:27:03 - [127] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Noragen Neirfallas wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Loyal's comments were different than RL threats - he took an RL tragedy that had *already actually happened* and spammed it and used it to insult/hurt people. He deserved his ban. However Nitshe - I've seen anti-gankers throwing out real-life threats in local - and I'm not even a ganker. They really are pretty common from all non-PvP-oriented players when PvP is thrust upon them. If you want proof - go blink yellow for a couple of days on the undock of any mission hub station. You don't even have to shoot at anybody - if they shoot you just go ahead and dock up. I can pretty much 100% guarantee you that you will have real-life oriented insults and threats thrown at you - because that is just the way people get these days...So just imagine what CODE. gankers who actually go out of their way to make people explode have hurled at them... Not saying it excuses Loyal's actions - as I say it isn't even related, they are entirely different types of crossing the line. But I still 100% guarantee you that it does happen. edit: And yes, I mean RL, out-of-game threats/comments. I've lost track of how many people have demanded my home address in the midst of their rants so they could "come teach me a lesson" - and as I say I am not even a ganker... Bob Dammm Isn't this a game? There is poor taste and there is the line most reasonable human beings know not to cross. I think if that's legit it's alllllll the wayyyyyyyyyyy back there On a lighter note, congrates on reaching the 3000 likes. Not everyone wishes you dead. Not yet but I'm slowly making ground. Last year I had 300 people set me to terrible standing 180 to bad and for some stupid reason around 60 had me on excellent... Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie ISD Max Trix favourite ISD '"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King-Griffin
Nitshe Razvedka 1218	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:35:59 - [128] - Quote NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Nitshe Razvedka wrote: NotTheSmartestCookie wrote: Check the Highsec Miner Grab Bag blogs on http://www.minerbumping.com/ for a good overview of what passes for acceptable discourse among miners and anti-gankers. A miner is not the same as an Anti-Ganker. And James315 plays with his photoshop cut-n-paste as much as his cheese-dik. Still incapable of posting without insults I see, I guess that is just AG social norms.. The Highsec miner Grabbag contains numerous quotes from miners, anti-gankers and anti-ganking channels, check them yourself. Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman before you claim those aren't "real anti-gankers". I know your moniker is not great in giving your cause some gravitas, but promoting your cult (and it is a suicide cult by definition) by playing the victim does not wash. Maybe Jim Jones can send you forth tomorrow with some fresh ideas. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dom Arkaral Bite the pillow 558	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:37:09 - [129] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: I have had only one RL threat, and he is on this thread. I took pity on him and sent his mail to Broadcast For Reps. You want to go there and throw my privacy away huh? No RL threats were made at YOU. No cops went to see YOU. YOU didn't have to talk to a psychologist in the cold for a whole hour. Oh and I forgot, YOU didnt't get your name on a list. You love to twist words your own ******* way. Stop trying to be the victim, you're the most useless pleb I ever had the chance to talk to. Merc. Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. #b4r Gù+Nitshe's favorite Gù+Bane of Holeysaltmountain 01010000 01101111 01110100 01100001 01110100 011011116
ISD Max Trix ISD Community Communications Liaisons 293	Posted - 2016.08.17 18:38:11 - [130] - Quote This thread has gone bad and way off topic even for C&P. I am closing it. ISD Max Trix Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department *I do not respond to Evemails.*



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