| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
   |
Posted - 2011.12.21 18:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Now I see why my double MSE fit is weak and probably I won't use it any time soon, if ever.
That being said I doubt that just asking for reliable newbie fit and get it from vets would prevented me from reinventing this wheel. Putting something together in EveHQ, something that seems ok and than log in and take it into space. ISKies lost on failfits don't matter because I don't play SpaceTycoon and it is not about earning money, even imaginary ones.
Even failfits are source of knowledge about game. It is not about that you can explain to me why shield regen is bad or sth diferent, it is about me seeing this failure in action and about seeing what is happening to a ship and to his tank when something bigger or just better punches a lot of oomph into piece of crap "reinvented" by me.
Once again, thank you all for this discussion, always a pleasure to get some troll-free responses :)
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 18:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:Now I see why my double MSE fit is weak and probably I won't use it any time soon, if ever.
That being said I doubt that just asking for reliable newbie fit and get it from vets would prevented me from reinventing this wheel. Putting something together in EveHQ, something that seems ok and than log in and take it into space. ISKies lost on failfits don't matter because I don't play SpaceTycoon and it is not about earning money, even imaginary ones.
Even failfits are source of knowledge about game. It is not about that you can explain to me why shield regen is bad or sth diferent, it is about me seeing this failure in action and about seeing what is happening to a ship and to his tank when something bigger or just better punches a lot of oomph into piece of crap "reinvented" by me.
Here's the thing: You even demonstrated this point by saying that you were going to go full gank on your next rifter. You knew that the dual MSE was a bad fit, but you didn't know WHY. There may well be a dual MSE fit that's actually viable, and you'd never know, because you looked at this one specific fit, found that it sucked, and moved on to a vastly different fit, never once seeing if there was a fit that was almost like yours, but not quite, that worked. The dual MSE jaguar for example is a rather nice ship, if you're looking for something tankier. But when you have the skills/isk to fly one, you won't, because you'll think back to how poorly the dual MSE rifter did, assume that this was because the premise behind the ship was flawed, and ignore other similar options based on that faulty belief.
It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 18:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:
Here's the thing: You even demonstrated this point by saying that you were going to go full gank on your next rifter. You knew that the dual MSE was a bad fit, but you didn't know WHY. There may well be a dual MSE fit that's actually viable, and you'd never know, because you looked at this one specific fit, found that it sucked, and moved on to a vastly different fit, never once seeing if there was a fit that was almost like yours, but not quite, that worked. The dual MSE jaguar for example is a rather nice ship, if you're looking for something tankier. But when you have the skills/isk to fly one, you won't, because you'll think back to how poorly the dual MSE rifter did, assume that this was because the premise behind the ship was flawed, and ignore other similar options based on that faulty belief.
It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it.
Well, I dare to argue that I am fully aware that jag is another ship and while based on the same hull its fittings are different and problems with rifters won't apply to their t2 brothers.
Jeez, it is like you would say: "you painted a rock with gold paint, you failed to sell it so next time you will have actual gold nugget you will remember previous fake-gold failure and you won't even try to sell it."
I am a newbie but for f**k sake not an idiot.
To be honest currently I have 3 rifters fitted and it is not that failure with shields put me in completely opposite camp of full gank. I just wanted to see how much dps I can squeeze out of my skills and modules. After all it is not like die from being curious, last time I checked it was a game :)
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 18:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Jeez, it is like you would say: "you painted a rock with gold paint, you failed to sell it so next time you will have actual gold nugget you will remember previous fake-gold failure and you won't even try to sell it."
I am a newbie but for f**k sake not an idiot.
To be honest currently I have 3 rifters fitted and it is not that failure with shields put me in completely opposite camp of full gank. I just wanted to see how much dps I can squeeze out of my skills and modules. After all it is not like die from being curious, last time I checked it was a game :)
And what happens when you stumble into a fit that could work wonderfully, with just a few slight modifications, but decide instead on something totally different because your version of the fit didn't work? As for the being a newbie but not being an idiot comment, you actually remind me a lot of this comic:
http://xkcd.com/675/
You're looking to revolutionize something that you don't even properly understand, and the odds of you ever managing to do so are somewhere between slim and none. Learn how to pvp, THEN change the way people do it by coming up with kickass fits that differ from the norm. |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 18:54:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:As for the being a newbie but not being an idiot comment, you actually remind me a lot of this comic: http://xkcd.com/675/You're looking to revolutionize something that you don't even properly understand, and the odds of you ever managing to do so are somewhere between slim and none. Learn how to pvp, THEN change the way people do it by coming up with kickass fits that differ from the norm.
I like your quick XKCD reference linky but by all means I am not trying to revolutionize rifter fits I just asked if uncommon / experimental / unusual / weird fits have any value in pvp. That includes also silly situations when you have no tackle and you just hope that your opponent just forgets to warp out :)
And I think I already had my answer and it was more or less positive so weird fits can be useful but in very narrow range of situations.
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
equincu ocha
The Tuskers
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 19:32:00 -
[36] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it.
If everyone thought like that can you imagine how boring EVE would be.
PODLA drakes wouldn't be around because missiles suck for pvp and drakes are only good as bricks.
No one would fly nano harbingers because they are aren't supposed to be nano ships.
There wouldn't be any brawling intys because that's the assault ships role.
Rokh would only be useful as snipers because of it's range bonus
Since you can't pvp with only two mids punishers and enyo's should only be mission ships
Celestis and Belacose's would never get used because they are jokes
The list goes on an on, some of the best fits are ones that don't look like they are proper fits or roles for the given ship.
I believe that thinking and learning for yourself can be the best way to start out with pvp, without everyone else forcing there own ideals of what proper pvp is you have a better chance of finding out how you really like to fly, and at the end of the day that's what it's really about.
Baby seal walked into a club |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 21:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rifters are fun to work with that's for sure. I've actually worked with em a good bit myself. I'm currently working with a high tracking speed rifter (somewhere between .7 and .8 tracking, can't remember exactly) using 125 ACIIs with RF Depleted Uranium and RF Titanium Sabot. Both ammo types have a bonus to tracking, so put that with a tracking enhancer + Gyro in your low..... Makes for interesting stuff!
Haven't 1v1'd with it yet, but it has worked well in small fleets so far.... |
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 21:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nm |
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 02:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
"Experimental" fittings work, within some constrains...
For example the arguement "will a target painter make my frig track better enough so that I will sacrifice tackle to fit one in my Comet or ANY frig", is not a real argument...
Experiment with stuff with detrimental effects on what you do...aka "will i range tank another turret frig better using AB/Scram/Web or AB/Scram/TD combos on my rifter or merlin etc" are worth experimenting with, simply cause skill and tactics (but also luck with every opponent) might prove the argument either way for different pilots.
Trying to "re-invent" pvp, or going 100% away from proven solutions is not experimenting. It's stubbornness, and most ppl usually fail horribly doing it.
In eve you need patience, actual skills (aka more than experience and kills but more of spherical grasp of the game mechanics and the abilities of the different ships out there), and off course a decent wallet with isk to burn through and proper skill points invested here and there, so that finally you can stay behind a properly fitted ship.
Proper fit = the one that does the job. It might be a fit dedicated to a niche role, yet if you can put yourself consistently in the position to exploit that niche, you are fine.
Unfortunately you need all of those 4/5 factors present all the time...if you lose one (or lack the other), the rest won't suffice.
These "experimental" fits, usually are "all-over-the-place", used outside their niche (if any real niche) with players that either cannot identify it, or cannot put themselves into advantageous situations before engaging (aka picking their fights).
Are there crazy ideas and crazy fits that work wonders in the right hands? Yes.
But "Crazy" (e.g. Nano Drake in 2008 or whenever Naxias came up with the Podla Drake) ideas are not the same with the "stupid" ideas that people come up with daydreaming.
Think skyscrapers: Architects and Engineers push the envelope every day. Taller, leaner, leaning more, lighter/more efficient etc...
They do that improving the mix and application of proven materials, with Steel and concrete being their basis.
More or less concrete to steel ratio is one thing, doing without either is not "applicable"...being different to be different is ofc "Cheaper" in EVE...no lives (or huge $ amounts) at risk. But learn what's to tamper with when you want to go higher, and what's not. At some point, new "game mechanics" might change the use or redefine the material properties of steel, concrete or both. Till then...
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
-- Bertrand Russell |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
108
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 03:50:00 -
[40] - Quote
I used a Tormenter in a 1v1 once... it wasn't pretty. |
Bibosikus
Elite United Hard Moose
Moose Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 20:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
As long as you're having fun, do as you damn well please.
But cherry-pick your targets :)
The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Scrindle Kavees
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 22:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Everything was an experimental fit at one point, your fits may become the next flavour-of-the-month.
Just never know. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
227
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 23:05:00 -
[43] - Quote
Scrindle Kavees wrote:Everything was an experimental fit at one point, your fits may become the next flavour-of-the-month.
Just never know.
Nah, you generally have a pretty good idea. Back in 2007 I knew that nano and HAM Drakes would both go FOTM if anyone ever bothered to get past their "drake is a brick" prejudices and actually fly them. :)
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Noisrevbus
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 23:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
The interesting argument in this thread is the larger question, and i'd say it's already been answered, as most popular concepts have been considered experimental at some point in time.
Besides the obvious question of unique or popular in a setting of archetypes... You can break down the question into three pieces with different definitions of "experimental": there is a constant good and bad, there is focused and general, and finally there's situational right and wrong (suitable or not, yet not necessarily good or bad).
I look at ships in EVE, and try to instill the same in the friends i fly with, something along these lines: there's always a tactic suitable for a given situation, there's always a gang-concept (a composition) suitable for a given tactic, there's a ship suitable for a (role in a-) given gang and there's a setup of modules for a given ship. If you want to complicate it further (and i always do) you can also say that there's a given role for a certain personality and a given ship for a certain role.
It comes back to the word archetypes i used above. If you fly alot of different gangs and try to be unique, you will quickly realize that being unique is difficult. There may be alot of tweaks, variations and hybrids, but most concepts out there have some familiarity (AHACs first came with MWD, then dualprop and finally lone AB, yet whatever propulsion type you aim for or what kind of ship you base the concept around it's still in the larger archetype of mitigation-oriented gameplay tied to the term AHAC). They may be better or worse, more or less focused or general or more suitable in a certain setting - but even when you only use an MWD they still rely on the same core ideals.
Regardless, whatever way you look at being either experimental or unique - it's mostly positive, something that enrich the game and is usually (should always be-) rewarded in the game. |
Alaric Faelen
Aquila Venatici
Bringers of Death.
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 00:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Virtually everything in Eve is viable, just some things slightly better. The beauty is that you can make any of the things in Eve work really well if you build for it and play to it's strengths.
On a more esoteric note, it's actually some fun NOT using all the EFT, Battle-Clinic and the lot, and rather just learn the game's mechanics and proceed from there. Just kicking around ideas is fun, then you can go out and see if it works. It just may. |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 02:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
Betcha whoever invented the nano Drake did not subscribe to Battleclinic. |
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 03:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
I remember Garmon been trolled on BC when he posted is dual prop Ranis fit which is now p. much a standard fit for 0.0 |
Cambarus
Baros Reloaded
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 04:23:00 -
[48] - Quote
equincu ocha wrote:Cambarus wrote:It's also worth noting that you're shooting yourself in the foot by picking a ship and trying different possible roles into which to shoehorn it, rather than picking a role, and then a ship to match it. If everyone thought like that can you imagine how boring EVE would be.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret:
The people who invented all those ship fittings? They already had PVP experience. It should be self evident that experimental fits work in eve, because a fit can't EXIST without having been experimental at some point. The problem is that if you have no idea what you're doing, you're much better off learning to PVP FIRST, with tried and tested setups, before going off and trying crazy fits. There's nothing inherently wrong with trying new things (or indeed shoehorning), but it's like fitting capitals and supercaps: If you have to ask, you're not ready, and need some more experience in game if you want to be anything more than a long list of lossmails with few/no kills. |
Liam Mirren
48
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 04:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
Fits should be a result of a strategy and not just EFT numbers. Coming up with a workable strategy only happens if you have a good understanding of PVP mechanics, the different ship types and targets you intend to run into. So experimental fits born out of a simple desire to be "different" are doomed to fail if not backed by knowledge and experience. Understanding how the majority of your targets fit&fly and then making a counter to that CAN work and while that can still be an out of the box/experimental fit the reasoning and logic behind it will be very different.
Lots of people come up with stupid things, but if it works it's not stupid. The trick is to realise what is stupid and what isn't, preferably before you put it into practise.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. |
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 05:58:00 -
[50] - Quote
If OP is interested, I've had a good deal of success with ecm burst rifters. Maybe not so much "wtf" factor, but lots of tears from opposing frigate/af/inty pilots! |
Schmata Bastanold
Papercuts Hurt More Than We Do
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 09:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vigdis Thorisdottir wrote:If OP is interested, I've had a good deal of success with ecm burst rifters. Maybe not so much "wtf" factor, but lots of tears from opposing frigate/af/inty pilots!
Always interested in new things to learn and/or try :)
And for the rest of great ppl who posted here big thank you for your thoughts.
My attempts of unusual fittings may be plain stupid or I just don't know how to properly use their "wtf" strenght but nevermind that it is still good thing to have actual exchange of ideas once in a while, instead of trolololo all the way :)
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 08:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Liam Mirren wrote:Fits should be a result of a strategy and not just EFT numbers. Coming up with a workable strategy only happens if you have a good understanding of PVP mechanics, the different ship types and targets you intend to run into. So experimental fits born out of a simple desire to be "different" are doomed to fail if not backed by knowledge and experience. Understanding how the majority of your targets fit&fly and then making a counter to that CAN work and while that can still be an out of the box/experimental fit the reasoning and logic behind it will be very different.
Lots of people come up with stupid things, but if it works it's not stupid. The trick is to realise what is stupid and what isn't, preferably before you put it into practise.
This is pretty good.
In order for you to know what will work pro to your strengths and against your opponent's weaknesses, you have to invest time into learning how the game works, how to read EFT further than "oh, i have enough PG and oh I do 2 more DPS this way".
You have to find the spectrum within a ship can excel, and ways to exploit / work around / beat or whatever your want to do.
Then you start working around this "strategy" of yours, narrowing down the possible combinations of modules and hulls that will help you achieve it.
This knowledge base you will use, usually gets enriched and informed by 1000s of engagements, and most likely an impressive amount of bitter losses = most valuable lessons. It's doesn't just happen, and it doesn't mean you just fail in it, nor does it mean that you will eventually succeed. The gamer cannot be bigger than the game, and in this game, everything goes down one way or the other.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
-- Bertrand Russell |
Garr Earthbender
Quantum Cats Syndicate
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 19:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
You could even switch out 'expiremental' for 'non-standard.' Everyone flys a Rifter. Go with a Punisher. See what happens. I've won a couple 1v1s and close fights because the other guy was set up for anti-rifter. |
Alaric Faelen
Aquila Venatici
Bringers of Death.
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.27 08:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
By sheer weight of numbers, pretty much every possible fitting combination has been tried. Only very new ships may hold a completely untried fit. So 'experimental' is only experimental TO YOU.
But experimenting is much more fun than copying fits from some web site. PvE is the place to experiment, and it's easier to replicate a situation in PvE to isolate the effects of whatever you are swapping out.
For example I just got into Interceptors on a serious level, so I found a couple rats in high sec and practiced manual approaches while watching transversal. I kept notice of how long it took me to get into tackle range (as in timing the hotkeys and such), how far I can set the orbit function and maintain my desired orbit distance at full speed.
Once I knew all that- I could look at specifics. I was still getting hit once in awhile- lightly at that. But then I docked up to swap the SeBo for a tracking disruptor. With PvE, you can do something like orbit a rat for 20 minutes at a time if you want. Dock, swap out for that experimental fit, and go back.
So they have value for PvP, but you should do the experimenting in PvE first. Actual PvP combat is no place to be taking a guess on what will happen next............
PvE is never a perfect simulation of actual PvP obviously. But you can't control PvP enough to really be able to isolate the results of an 'experiment' |
Opertone
Signal 7
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.27 08:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
your DPS will be below everything else.
Best you can do is fit for speed, plate and shiled tank/buffer. Your survival will mean more than you extra 20 DPS.
I've tried this manytimes. Dual tank works better on small ships. Energy vampire, shield booster and armor plate and extender. Your chances to outlive your enemy improve. Or DCU armor plate and armor repper. Makes sure you don't get alphaed, that you do not bleed. That you have time for GTFO maneuver. |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |