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Bigoleed
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Posted - 2007.03.07 04:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Bigoleed on 07/03/2007 04:27:45 First off - I like EVE - alot and this is not intended to be a flame of CCP or of EVE. I consider this a constructive topic to better the EVE experience. Not that this post will change EVE - consider it food for thought - or post for flaming!
Mature MMO's typically fade away - as a fact - they become outdated or unable to resolve problems that keep it a fresh experience.
So - with that said - I think EVE is at a critical point in its "life" - if you will. EVE is all about gameplay - it would'nt die due to graphics or age mechanics IMO - but gameplay challenges *will*.
If some things are not resolved soon - or strongly addressed I feel that EVE will start the road downward instead of contining to spiral upward in gameplay and membership...why?
Well, I will tell you why I feel this is a critical point.
- The market and opportunities in the market have peaked - profits in manufacturing and reselling have peaked - or are about to peak. In most all accessible markets. T2 issue is a seperate beast alltogether - but it's definitly part of the issue.
- Gameplay with Nano Ships and Blobs have become the defacto way to play - Blobs being the main issue. This is not good gameplay - sure you get the conventional pvp encounter - but the masses prefer immunity via blobs and the current imbalance in Nano setups. Blob tactics kill pvp games as they age - zerg vs zerg is not good gameplay - not saying this is 100% resolveable - haven't personally played a game that has been able to break the lure of the "zerg" myself.
- The recent events - have obviously not been addressed to many players agreement - lots of sore feelings abound. Shadey events create the distrust and in a game where so many cheer CCP - it's a shame to see that decline by any amount. We want to keep applauding you CCP - It's one of the rare qualities that EVE/CCP has.
- Macro - Farmers are all too common. Mature games being riddled by ever growing macro gameplay creates a vibe of distrust - again difficult situation and hard for normal players to know how rampant this isue is - but knowing they exist is not a positive.
- Great disparity between the "haves" and the have nots. Mature alliance vs new alliance in 0.0 is a non event. Faction fitted T2 ships with carrier support and experience vs T1 fitted ships. Yes - there are ways around this - but some alliances - due to ISK - have extreme edges - hard issue to deal with - but it is a gameplay issue when trying to bring in fresh meat. Discouraging gameplay if you will.
So - I'm not whining - in fact I'm a "have". I'm soley pointing out the level of maturity that EVE has reached - making it difficult for a new player to experience the same experiences those who came to EVE years ago encountered.
EVE needs an injection of gameplay. What all that entails - I'm no expert - but I've seen this stage a few times before - and I believe we are that critical turning point.
*douses self in flames and lights self on fire* muahahah
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Samirol
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:02:00 -
[2]
the thing is that a new player is immediately, from day 1, useful in pvp. They can always catch up, it just takes time and dedication.
http://www.iknowderek.com/
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Bigoleed The market and opportunities in the market have peaked - profits in manufacturing and reselling have peaked - or are about to peak. In most all accessible markets. T2 issue is a seperate beast alltogether - but it's definitly part of the issue.
Invention is in and being tweaked. It may be awhile till it is all sorted but it will change the market dynamics. Will it chaneg them for the better or worse? Too soon to tell but change it it will.
Also, remember T2 is not the end of the road. The Devs have planned out to T5 stuff. T5 of course will be a long time coming but T3 of course will be sooner. No ETA on this that I have heard but again a mechanic to chaneg up the items market is already in some sort of development.
Quote: Gameplay with Nano Ships and Blobs have become the defacto way to play - Blobs being the main issue. This is not good gameplay - sure you get the conventional pvp encounter - but the masses prefer immunity via blobs and the current imbalance in Nano setups. Blob tactics kill pvp games as they age - zerg vs zerg is not good gameplay - not saying this is 100% resolveable - haven't personally played a game that has been able to break the lure of the "zerg" myself.
Well nanos will be getting a nerf soon. As will NOS and maybe i-stabs. We will have ot wait and see what form those nerfs will take but they should end Nanophoons. As for blobs you are right that it is a style of fighting that people will always try to do. Heck, it is an ages old military tactic. "He who gets there the fastest with the mostest wins." - Anonymous
That said Titan's DD weapon is an attempt to discourage blobs. I have not heard of CCP plans along these lines (anti-blob) beyond this but I do believe they are thinking about it.
Quote: The recent events - have obviously not been addressed to many players agreement - lots of sore feelings abound. Shadey events create the distrust and in a game where so many cheer CCP - it's a shame to see that decline by any amount. We want to keep applauding you CCP - It's one of the rare qualities that EVE/CCP has.
This one needs to be given a rest. I doubt there is an MMO out there you can find where the Devs care more about it than EVE. Yes there was an issue and they dealt with it. Whether you think it was enough or not is beside the point. CCP has put in place measures to better police themselves in the future and harsher penalties for those caught violating them. Time to move on.
Quote: Macro - Farmers are all too common. Mature games being riddled by ever growing macro gameplay creates a vibe of distrust - again difficult situation and hard for normal players to know how rampant this isue is - but knowing they exist is not a positive.
An ongoing battle to be sure. CCP and players themselves work against these guys more effectively than in most games. Still a problem...have to see how it turns out.
Quote: Great disparity between the "haves" and the have nots. Mature alliance vs new alliance in 0.0 is a non event. Faction fitted T2 ships with carrier support and experience vs T1 fitted ships. Yes - there are ways around this - but some alliances - due to ISK - have extreme edges - hard issue to deal with - but it is a gameplay issue when trying to bring in fresh meat. Discouraging gameplay if you will.
EVE is better than most MMOs in that the L60 guy (as an example) can be killed in EVE by good gameplay by a team of several L20 guys. In WOW an L60 guy could sit down in the midst of 30 L20 guys and go to sleep and be fine.
Of course the people with more SP and money will have an edge. No other way it can be really. I do think 0.0 space needs to be opened up more. Rather than having to defend a few chokepoints and thus protect 100s of solar systems Alliance space should be maybe a dozen solarsystems. This would allow for more inter-Alliance dynamics (i.e. more of them)
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Murukan
Minmatar Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:55:00 -
[4]
the blob thing has been discussed in recent blogs and the devs are looking into ways to make blobs less important and small strike forces more important, so don't get all doom and gloom just yet
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Lictose
Gallente Zion.
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:05:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Lictose on 07/03/2007 06:01:13
Originally by: Humpalot
This one needs to be given a rest. I doubt there is an MMO out there you can find where the Devs care more about it than EVE. Yes there was an issue and they dealt with it. Whether you think it was enough or not is beside the point. CCP has put in place measures to better police themselves in the future and harsher penalties for those caught violating them. Time to move on.
The bolded bit i prove you wrong, Saga of Ryzom that game has full DEV support the DEV's partially play the game but on alts, there also is DEV's/GM's that sit around each main city helping newer players, whenever a problem arises on the server it is dealt with quickly & swiftly.. You don't get no smacktards like this game has, its a friendly/mature community (mainly because the first sign of smack an the community jump on you)...
Now i bet your saying well if you think its so good why are you palying EVE & not that... jus before you say it..... i play both :), EVE to skill train until it books up, an Ryzom to have my fun on... seriously thats how this game is getting, your only subscribed so you can change your skills... one day peopel are jus gonna fuk it off an down goes EVE
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:26:00 -
[6]
I would add:
Persistent, old, and seemingly ignored problems/bugs/exploits.
I would re-iterate that, rightly or wrongly, a prevailing miasma of suspicion about the "we are all playing on the same level" ideal.
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Theocrates
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:26:00 -
[7]
I've written this several times only to boil it down to this.
Newb = 3mil SP and or less than 6 months game time(thats player not toon). Usually lower end access to t2. Note this is for a less than fanatical player.
The pirates this individual will face on their journey to low sec and 0.0 are often far better equipped and skilled even at the same SP level in the case of targeted pirate alts. With the introduction of t3 gear this will get even worse. T3 gear will have prereqs just like t2 does and thus the skill point gap will only increase. With the advantages the gear brings the newbs will face ever stiffer competition for ever decreasing resources. Given the mining and mission changes the new player already starts off at a disadvantage, I for instance had more resources available than a player who starts today will.
Unless the t1 crowd is somewhat sheltered at the early stages of player development and from exploitation from the t3 crowd the risk versus reward ratio will tip severely enough to make the game unmarketable.
Let me put it this way, when t1 newbs face t3 vets this game becomes the space based planetside. Seen many success stories about it lately?
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Crydawner
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:34:00 -
[8]
where can i read about tech 3?
i am a newbie on my 7 day of trial, so far i'm training all my learning skills upto 5 basic and 4 advanced (and some more with my implants), this will let me learn whatever i want fast. I'm aware that i will never catch up with the versatility of 3 year old players, but if i specialise in something i can compete. at least i hope so!
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Lygos
Finis Actum
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:38:00 -
[9]
Well, you could always knuckle under and work under the auspices of a suzeraignty. Surely you cannot expect otherwise than what kismet has bestowed. If the powerful were not supposed to occupy their temporary places in history, the divine would not have chosen them nor allowed for it to transpire.
In the Rim, nothing is granted to you freely. In most cases, you need to reach a certain minimal bar even to qualify to vassal yourself to a superior, yet immanent power.
--- T2 Risk | Corp Divisions |
Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:44:00 -
[10]
Quote: i am a newbie on my 7 day of trial, so far i'm training all my learning skills upto 5 basic and 4 advanced (and some more with my implants), this will let me learn whatever i want fast. I'm aware that i will never catch up with the versatility of 3 year old players, but if i specialise in something i can compete. at least i hope so!
If you want some advice, dont bother training any learning skill to 5 yet. You only need the basic learnings to level 4 in order to train the advanced learnings now.
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Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.03.07 07:03:00 -
[11]
The market has long ago reached it's peak. All the blueprints are out there, and every corporation with any self respect own at least one battleship blueprint original - if not then an unlimited run BPC (a matter for an entirely different discussion). Game play is currently suffering greatly, nearly everyone is using double, or even tripple!, MWD set ups which are impossible to catch and seem mandatory if you want to do anything BUT follow the blob. The recent release of the Miner II BPO has sown distrust towards CCP's competence in handling such valuable licenses, even though by now the prices have finally dropped below half a million a unit with the increasing amount of licensed producers, but if this is how CCP intend to introduce T2 for us I dread what Castor will bring us. AFK miners in industrials have become an increasing problem. It is almost as if you see them in every 0.9 and 1.0 system out there, and if that wasn't enough there's battleships sucking the newbie systems dry of rocks! This can only mean bad news for the economy in the long run. The alliance situation is absolutely horrible, there just isn't any room for the "small guys" with the four giants locking the east, south, and west while a bloody war keeps everyone not inclined to get killed out of the north. It seems there's only one thing that unite these alliances, and that's keeping everyone else out - this is something that CCP needs to adress!
Oh, I'm terribly sorry, but if you haven't figured it by now, the above are concerns from three years ago. I just thought it so intensely ironic that I could think of so many similarities with the concerns back then and the concerns right now. Since then a lot of things have happened. Miner II release was a mistake, but newer items have taken the place Miner IIs were originally intended to have - Hulks with modulated miners for instance Stain, Curse, Xetic alliances (The Three Giants of the South) and Fountain Alliance have all perished and been replaced by a myriad of smaller ones + BOB Multi-MWD situation was fixed. Several new 0.0 entrances, short-cuts and passages has been added. Battleship miners have been accepted and industrial afkers are considered to be wasting their time. Jita is now the new Yulai - well that's not much of a fix, but at least not EVERY major travel route goes through Jita. Dominix is made usable - you no longer get laughed at by cruisers when you field it The market continues to expand in ways we did not expect three years ago, there is now much trade being made beyond mere utilitarian T1 items - starbase fuel for instance. There is also MORE of those new fields coming. The only thing that isn't evolving is blob warfare, though. - EVE is sick. |
Coconut Joe
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Galactic-Federation
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Posted - 2007.03.07 07:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ithildin The market has long ago reached it's peak. All the blueprints are out there, and every corporation with any self respect own at least one battleship blueprint original - if not then an unlimited run BPC (a matter for an entirely different discussion). Game play is currently suffering greatly, nearly everyone is using double, or even tripple!, MWD set ups which are impossible to catch and seem mandatory if you want to do anything BUT follow the blob. The recent release of the Miner II BPO has sown distrust towards CCP's competence in handling such valuable licenses, even though by now the prices have finally dropped below half a million a unit with the increasing amount of licensed producers, but if this is how CCP intend to introduce T2 for us I dread what Castor will bring us. AFK miners in industrials have become an increasing problem. It is almost as if you see them in every 0.9 and 1.0 system out there, and if that wasn't enough there's battleships sucking the newbie systems dry of rocks! This can only mean bad news for the economy in the long run. The alliance situation is absolutely horrible, there just isn't any room for the "small guys" with the four giants locking the east, south, and west while a bloody war keeps everyone not inclined to get killed out of the north. It seems there's only one thing that unite these alliances, and that's keeping everyone else out - this is something that CCP needs to adress!
Oh, I'm terribly sorry, but if you haven't figured it by now, the above are concerns from three years ago. I just thought it so intensely ironic that I could think of so many similarities with the concerns back then and the concerns right now. Since then a lot of things have happened. Miner II release was a mistake, but newer items have taken the place Miner IIs were originally intended to have - Hulks with modulated miners for instance Stain, Curse, Xetic alliances (The Three Giants of the South) and Fountain Alliance have all perished and been replaced by a myriad of smaller ones + BOB Multi-MWD situation was fixed. Several new 0.0 entrances, short-cuts and passages has been added. Battleship miners have been accepted and industrial afkers are considered to be wasting their time. Jita is now the new Yulai - well that's not much of a fix, but at least not EVERY major travel route goes through Jita. Dominix is made usable - you no longer get laughed at by cruisers when you field it The market continues to expand in ways we did not expect three years ago, there is now much trade being made beyond mere utilitarian T1 items - starbase fuel for instance. There is also MORE of those new fields coming. The only thing that isn't evolving is blob warfare, though.
You're right. If only more people were more patient :(
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Ealiom
Blackhole Entry Point
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Posted - 2007.03.07 09:22:00 -
[13]
EVE is thee only mmorpg out there that has been created to be player driven and truly open ended. They can impliment ideas for as long as there are customers. Unlike say WoW were they can only open up a new set of areas throw in a few instances and call it a step forward. As long as EVE continues to buck the trend of endgame-itus that so horribly ravages the mmorpg market. It will always be fresh and exciting.
My only concern is looking upon my character and wondering how many more skills I can actually train. Im running out of ridiculous level5 skills to train now. Will I forever be doomed to train for things im never going to use.
Executioner Model Blackbird Model |
Ithildin
Gallente The Corporation Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.03.07 09:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ealiom My only concern is looking upon my character and wondering how many more skills I can actually train. Im running out of ridiculous level5 skills to train now. Will I forever be doomed to train for things im never going to use.
That's always the risk.
I hardly ever use interceptors anymore, but I have trained those skills up all the same and used them back when. Currently I am maxing out my leadership skills even though for example gunnery could use a lot more polish - I'm never going to have use of Fleet Command 5, but I'm training it all the same. Sometimes the reward is not in using the skill, but merely having it. It's also what makes the game accessible to the more short-term players - you actually don't need 2 years of training to compete with people 2 years old, you just need 2-3 months of correctly applied trainingÖ - EVE is sick. |
Per Ole
Caldari Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2007.03.07 09:34:00 -
[15]
EVE's having a midlife crisis, 'nuff said... :P
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Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Humpalot I have not heard of CCP plans along these lines (anti-blob) beyond this but I do believe they are thinking about it.
IIRC, I heard a rumour that stealth bombers will be getting changed at some point, firing an AoE high damage weapon similar to one of the "Gjallarhorn" swarm of missiles, though for the life of me I can't remember where I heard that... could have been a dev blog? ***
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Keorythe
Caldari Terra Rosa Militia
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Posted - 2007.03.07 22:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bigoleed Edited by: Bigoleed on 07/03/2007 04:27:45 Mature MMO's typically fade away - as a fact - they become outdated or unable to resolve problems that keep it a fresh experience.
So - with that said - I think EVE is at a critical point in its "life" - if you will. EVE is all about gameplay - it would'nt die due to graphics or age mechanics IMO - but gameplay challenges *will*.
Actually that original statement is off a bit. Mature MMO's fade away because something better comes out down the road and takes its place. However, nothing like EvE has ever come out. Even after 3 years it is one of a kind.
Look at the progression of other games. First came the MUD's...which were fantasy. Then came the first real MMO's like Asherons Call. They were supplanted by the first epic MMO being Everquest....yet another fantazy game. After several years people tried to supplant Everquest with games like Dark Age of Camelot. Other sci-fi types came out like City of Heros and Star Wars galaxies which were in a class to their own. Then came the final version of Everquest which is World of Warcraft (EQ2 flopped when they had too many screw ups)...yet another fantasy game. WoW will soon be leaving as well as newer MMO's of its type come out such as Star Trek or Fallen Earth assuming they are extremely buggy at launch.
I can plan raids or tourney's or whatever for WoW or CoH without having ever played them because their mechanics are essentially rewired versions of Everquest. I can NOT do the same for EvE. Heck the mechanics with EvE are so different that most people who don't like it, don't like it because its so different from what they are used to.
Attrition in EvE is due to burn out from playing so long, not from the game itself. Many of those reasons you posted up their are frankly false.
With great power comes great responsibility...and hawt cyborz! |
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