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om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
44
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Posted - 2016.07.10 23:07:57 -
[1] - Quote
Oh hay, names and locations won't be mentioned to preserve the egos of the fragile. Easily sourced from kb anyway.
Last December or so i picked a 0.4 next to hisec and decided to make it my querencia since i had assets there from years before. Got 100 kills on newbro Ventures with Reapers fitted double scram. A few PVE bads and the odd local before things quieted down. After killing about 160 newbros, sending each 2m isk labelled KF is recruiting i was unimpressed by how none joined so stopped doing that.
Actually made more friends who had questions about how i landed on them so fast/precisely. Patrolling in a double-scram Prospect became the thing but mainly the aim was to scare off ambushers so i could quickly burn down PVE sites. Got 2 Stratios BPC, 2 Vigi BPC and a mountain of decryptors for the invention.
SO lost a cruiser to one of those insta-kill carriers, managed to bump a 2 week old thanny off undock and see him babble in local instead of corp comms by mistake, hail the carrier changes and skill injectors.
Then one day saw a 10-day-old tengu killing a clone soldier rat in a belt. Totally slipping, calmly fighting a cruiser rat. I thought: totally bait. This is someone who spent many spaec money on SP and ship to eat a 1m bounty rat? Maybe just testing it.
Few days later, newbro thorax derping around, making local look untidy, so i put neuts scram n web on muh snipan ishtar to go chase him off or wreck him.
OH HO Tengu and Legion appear and unleash a tiny dribble of dps onto me with faction drones. My ecm drones could shrug off one point at a time and the neuts capped out the thorax but they managed to keep me there for the 6 minutes it took their poorly skilled iWin ships to burn me down.
When i saw the faction drones i mentioned that they would never be good, to which was replied: not like you.
It clicked: here's some poor schmuck i squashed who has been buttherterated enough to go to the Mr Miyagi of P2W skill injectors to get me back. Multibox 2 strat cruisers and a bait thorax. Wow. Both T3 pilots under 2 weeks old. Both fly with T2 rigged T3 cruisers fitted with nothing but faction and deadspace.
I guess i applaud this as an option, since it means there's some extremely shiny lossmails out there to be had. On the other hand it's also the dawn of a more direct P2W eve than previously.
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Gimme Sake
State War Academy Caldari State
401
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Posted - 2016.07.11 00:30:39 -
[2] - Quote
A wise man once said sense is a one way street and at its end there's a pile of cap boosters. Maybe those are also effective against the moths that seem to devour your sentences.
"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
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om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
45
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Posted - 2016.07.11 07:41:11 -
[3] - Quote
It's called being articulate and concise as opposed to prolix. Thanks for your post, though, i guess.
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Tengu Grib
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
1536
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Posted - 2016.07.11 16:09:05 -
[4] - Quote
That was neither concise nor articulate. It was however rather entertaining. Would read again.
It's amusing that he went to that much effort and expense for some petty revenge. That's what Eve's all about though.
As far as P2W, I still don't feel that way. I feel like injectors are just providing guys ways of getting themselves into more trouble than they can handle faster than ever before. Sure in this case it worked out in his favor ( I think, you weren't clear on whether you died to his multiboxing or not) but generally it does not.
Rabble Rabble Rabble
Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
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Mortlake
Devils Rejects 666
2325
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Posted - 2016.07.11 16:43:38 -
[5] - Quote
Everything's ruined and I hate you.
+1.
Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
165
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Posted - 2016.07.11 18:39:29 -
[6] - Quote
om rootingking wrote:On the other hand it's also the dawn of a more direct P2W eve than previously. 2011: CCP releases virtual clothing, and hints at the possibility of specially coloured/effect-laced ammunition...EVE citizens literally riot...
5 years later...
2016: SP is bought/sold for RL $$$. A 3 day old character becomes the first to max every skill in EVE just to prove he can. People cheer/applaud, or at worst sit apathetic and say "meh".
And people wonder why we turn into angry bitter-vets... |
Tengu Grib
Rabble Inc. Rabble Alliance
1536
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Posted - 2016.07.11 20:53:07 -
[7] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:om rootingking wrote:On the other hand it's also the dawn of a more direct P2W eve than previously. 2011: CCP releases virtual clothing, and hints at the possibility of specially coloured/effect-laced ammunition... EVE citizens literally riot...5 years later... 2016: SP is bought/sold for RL $$$. A 3 day old character becomes the first to max every skill in EVE just to prove he can. People cheer/applaud, or at worst sit apathetic and say "meh". And people wonder why we turn into angry bitter-vets...
If you have that kind of money, you're not paying to win Eve, you've already won it. And if you do that with a CC you're just an idiot the rest of us can extort, rob and scam. Or in other words, a Crime and Punishment comedy thread waiting to happen.
It's really no different than the character bazaar with a couple of exceptions (character age means nothing for instance). I just watch all the extractors and injectors getting blown up on Zkill and laugh.
Rabble Rabble Rabble
Praise James, Supreme Protector of High Sec.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2016.07.11 20:59:15 -
[8] - Quote
Tengu Grib wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:om rootingking wrote:On the other hand it's also the dawn of a more direct P2W eve than previously. 2011: CCP releases virtual clothing, and hints at the possibility of specially coloured/effect-laced ammunition... EVE citizens literally riot...5 years later... 2016: SP is bought/sold for RL $$$. A 3 day old character becomes the first to max every skill in EVE just to prove he can. People cheer/applaud, or at worst sit apathetic and say "meh". And people wonder why we turn into angry bitter-vets... If you have that kind of money, you're not paying to win Eve, you've already won it. And if you do that with a CC you're just an idiot the rest of us can extort, rob and scam. Or in other words, a Crime and Punishment comedy thread waiting to happen. It's really no different than the character bazaar with a couple of exceptions (character age means nothing for instance). I just watch all the extractors and injectors getting blown up on Zkill and laugh. Are you saying that the monocle was more game-impacting in 2011, so the riots were OK? Or has something fundamental about the structure of the universe changed since then?
Just interesting how fast everybody did a complete 180 on micro-transactions in general - and on game-altering ones specifically. Obviously you can't "win" eve - so it will never be truly "pay-to-win" - but it is certainly becoming more of a "pay for ridiculous advantages" system - and it is being pushed harder than ever before.
Additionally, that is true of most games that are considered pay-to-win. None of them actually let you just *pay* and *win* - They are all scams designed to keep idiots funneling more and more real-world money into them for perceived advantages that ultimately aren't enough, so the cycle continues. I find it disheartening that EVE has chosen to go down this development path - and even more disheartening that nobody has a problem with it. |
Areen Sassel
127
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Posted - 2016.07.12 01:28:49 -
[9] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:2016: SP is bought/sold for RL $$$.
Bought for, not sold for.
You've been able to buy SP a lot longer than that - either by PLEXing into a set of +5s or in the character bazaar. 2016 brought a difference of degree not kind. |
om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
46
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Posted - 2016.07.12 02:27:17 -
[10] - Quote
T3 pilots with every mod faction/deadspace, 100m worth of implants stuffed into their pods, under 10 days old? Way more linear than character bazaar: start playing, buy awesome, win fights. They might throw a few bucks at CCP but i can't see that person being here for years. Also character age always meant nothing with alts (that week old cruiser with a cyno in the belt) but now it's no indication at all of SP level as well.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
166
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Posted - 2016.07.12 10:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
So once again then, why were there riots in 2011?
Was all of EVE insane back then and we've weeded out all the insane people and become saner now?
Again - it is the *change* that is startling, not the fact that CCP is copying other games to rake in $$$
Also, if sp is *bought* for RL $$$ it means somebody is *selling*. It may not be direct, but it is still bought *and* sold. CCP just gets the $$$.
Also look at some of the shuttle losses lately and tell me again people arent RMTing it. Go ahead... |
Nitshe Razvedka
869
|
Posted - 2016.07.12 11:42:19 -
[12] - Quote
Gimme Sake wrote: A wise man once said sense is a one way street and at its end there's a pile of cap boosters. Maybe those are also effective against the moths that seem to devour your sentences.
Anthony Burgess was criticised for his colourful and dystopian language in a Clockwork Orange. Eve should be a futurists linguistics prologue. Sometimes less is more, sometimes more is waffle.
Nice story.................
but you're still a **** for joining goonies.
Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.
Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
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om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
46
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Posted - 2016.07.13 01:51:48 -
[13] - Quote
Burgess required things of the reader, always a big no-no but rewarding for whoever bothers. He also used a lyrical poetic method with words so that the sound resembled that being described, a pair of horses charging as an octopodius cacophony really brings that home, but lets RL livestock think he's just using hurrr big werds. After 365 days of straight PVP i thought i'd join KF to fatten up in Dek and take it easy for a while. Then the biggest change to sov mechanics i've ever seen and the biggest RMT backed enemy force ever combined to start a scuffle. FML as the kids say. Every single day i've been in KF someone has blurted grrgons h8gons to announce their irrelevance. Thanks for being today's.
These SP injectors tho.
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Areen Sassel
128
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Posted - 2016.07.17 22:51:27 -
[14] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Also, if sp is *bought* for RL $$$ it means somebody is *selling*.
Indeed, but it doesn't mean someone (other than CCP) is selling it for RL money. Indeed, I listed some cases where I can buy SP for RL money without anyone but CCP getting richer, and skill injectors are another case.
You seem long on polemic but short on actual sense. |
Izi Ningishzidda
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2016.07.18 05:46:11 -
[15] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:Tengu Grib wrote:Dirty Forum Alt wrote:om rootingking wrote:On the other hand it's also the dawn of a more direct P2W eve than previously. 2011: CCP releases virtual clothing, and hints at the possibility of specially coloured/effect-laced ammunition... EVE citizens literally riot...5 years later... 2016: SP is bought/sold for RL $$$. A 3 day old character becomes the first to max every skill in EVE just to prove he can. People cheer/applaud, or at worst sit apathetic and say "meh". And people wonder why we turn into angry bitter-vets... If you have that kind of money, you're not paying to win Eve, you've already won it. And if you do that with a CC you're just an idiot the rest of us can extort, rob and scam. Or in other words, a Crime and Punishment comedy thread waiting to happen. It's really no different than the character bazaar with a couple of exceptions (character age means nothing for instance). I just watch all the extractors and injectors getting blown up on Zkill and laugh. Are you saying that the monocle was more game-impacting in 2011, so the riots were OK? Or has something fundamental about the structure of the universe changed since then? Just interesting how fast everybody did a complete 180 on micro-transactions in general - and on game-altering ones specifically. Obviously you can't "win" eve - so it will never be truly "pay-to-win" - but it is certainly becoming more of a "pay for ridiculous advantages" system - and it is being pushed harder than ever before. Additionally, that is true of most games that are considered pay-to-win. None of them actually let you just *pay* and *win* - They are all scams designed to keep idiots funneling more and more real-world money into them for perceived advantages that ultimately aren't enough, so the cycle continues. I find it disheartening that EVE has chosen to go down this development path - and even more disheartening that nobody has a problem with it.
Look. I have all kinds of problems with this company, but I'm not going to waste much time thinking about it or trying to change them. I think most of us realize they are a lost cause. When people are not complaining it's because they just don't care to waste their words anymore.
Secondly micro transactions on vanity items are something I love, so they lost two customers and gained one perhaps. The problem with CCP is they try to reinvent the wheel and do so in ways that disrupt the fun of others. When you make a change it needs to be good for the majority not a minority. Adding to the game in a way that makes someone happy but doesn't effect regulars is the best policy.
Aesop said when you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one. This is true but Cosmetic micro transactions hurt no one in the long run. They are optional. THings like fozzie sov ruin the play style of hundreds iff not thousands of players, it was a bad move. Same with skill injectors - it offers an unavoidable advantage, and adults with good paying jobs who have no sense of fair play are going to have to go for it. It ruins games, pay to play signals the death of a game in my opinion. |
Areen Sassel
128
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Posted - 2016.07.18 18:13:16 -
[16] - Quote
Izi Ningishzidda wrote:Same with skill injectors - it offers an unavoidable advantage, and adults with good paying jobs who have no sense of fair play are going to have to go for it.
Just as they could buy highly-skilled characters beforehand, and still can buy them now. So where's the beef? |
Sitting Bull Lakota
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
110
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Posted - 2016.07.19 08:48:37 -
[17] - Quote
If I remember correctly, the jita rioters' motivation was not unrest at EvE potentially becoming a p2w scheme game, but an outcry over CCP's decision to use their resources to make a money shop instead of some tangible benefit to the game.
I want to say that the riot also demonstrated that CCP had intentionally let their hardware/software fall into a state of disrepair due to the server's poor performance during said event. I believe we got time dialation as an indirect result of that riot. I believe the riot was also, partially, a protest of the lag infestation of the part of EvE that CCP praises most highly: the 1000 player battles.
I am more concerned about the ever growing stream of little changes (ore holds, no watchlists, drones don't auto-aggro by default, native hull resists, hard cap to align time, etc.) than I could ever be about buying and selling sp.
I will consider blowing the dust off my pitchfork when CCP adds social corps. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
235
|
Posted - 2016.07.19 12:12:59 -
[18] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote:Izi Ningishzidda wrote:Same with skill injectors - it offers an unavoidable advantage, and adults with good paying jobs who have no sense of fair play are going to have to go for it. Just as they could buy highly-skilled characters beforehand, and still can buy them now. So where's the beef? high-skill characters were pretty rare on the character exchange - and even then the absolute max was ~200m sp that was *not* focused into only the specific skills you wanted.
The character also had its own history and could be tracked through the forum posts/etc. Everybody knew it had lots of sp, as well as that someone had purchased it.
If you can't see how that is different than skill injectors....I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
I am well aware I'm in the minority on this issue, and I'm not even saying you guys should change your minds. I'm just a dinosaur from the old EVE. Happy SP injecting |
Areen Sassel
130
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Posted - 2016.07.19 19:16:27 -
[19] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:high-skill characters were pretty rare on the character exchange
So they went to the highest bidder, who could become the highest bidder by buying PLEX with real-life money. More real-life money, more skillpoints.
Quote:- and even then the absolute max was ~200m sp that was *not* focused into only the specific skills you wanted.
As said; it's a difference of degree, not of kind - although of course the characters for sale were focussed on specific skillsets, because that's what people do.
Quote:Everybody knew it had lots of sp, as well as that someone had purchased it.
If I see a 3-day old pilot in a T3 now I know it has lots of SP. Whether someone buys their skillpoints in bulk or a la carte, if they're flying an expensive ship, they probably-but-not-definitely have a lot of SP invested in it. No change there.
Everybody did not, of course, know that someone had purchased it, unless you're in the habit of writing down every name in the character bazaar just in case it turns up in Local at some point. From that point of view, the purchasers of skillpoints are better telegraphed in the new world - you can't hide a recent start date.
Quote:If you can't see how that is different than skill injectors....I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
Bluster is rarely convincing.
Quote:I am well aware I'm in the minority on this issue, and I'm not even saying you guys should change your minds. I'm just a dinosaur from the old EVE. Happy SP injecting
You're in the minority not because the game has changed or the playerbase has, but because most players, old and new, recognise you could buy skill points with cash money in the "old EVE", too. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
242
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Posted - 2016.07.19 19:30:31 -
[20] - Quote
Areen Sassel wrote: If I see a 3-day old pilot in a T3 now I know it has lots of SP. Whether someone buys their skillpoints in bulk or a la carte, if they're flying an expensive ship, they probably-but-not-definitely have a lot of SP invested in it. No change there.
It makes a difference even if they aren't in an expensive ship - but sure it isn't a huge change in real combat situations.
Areen Sassel wrote: Everybody did not, of course, know that someone had purchased it, unless you're in the habit of writing down every name in the character bazaar just in case it turns up in Local at some point.
Clearly you have never heard of the "search" feature...
@ Sitting Bull Lakota - the assorted rants/eve news articles/etc regarding the old riots are still around if you care enough to search. I assure you it was centered on EVE's transformation into a p2w scheme game, not CCP continuing to ignore game mechanics as they had consistently done since the game was created.
My personal theory as to why there are no riots currently is simple: Those players quit. The active EVE player base is less than 50% of what it was then. And a lot of the remaining population are new characters. None of you arguing with me was even playing anywhere *near* 2011. You never played the game as it was then, and you never will. |
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Areen Sassel
130
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Posted - 2016.07.20 15:16:32 -
[21] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:It is a *massive* difference of degree. Before the $$$ cost was insane and the results were mediocre at best for most players.
So your complaint that the game is rewarding those with deep RL pockets is based around the idea that you used to need deeper RL pockets to buy SP. What?
Quote:Now anybody can do it - and based on the number of sp bought/sold most people *are* starting to do so.
Based on the number bought and sold and a healthy dose of sheer guesswork, you mean - is it a few whales or a ubiquitous practice? I don't know and _neither do you_. I know I've never done it and I'd lay a reasonable bet you haven't. Beyond that - who can tell?
Quote:But hey, at least I finally got you to admit there *is* a difference of some sort.
My first post in this thread said "2016 brought a difference of degree not kind" so, well done on "finally" getting me to "admit" something I said right from the get-go.
Quote:Clearly you have never heard of the "search" feature...
If you'd tried that you'd find it's a surprisingly slow way to find out if a character is bought. It certainly is not the case that, as you said, "everyone" knows the character is bought; a few especially curious people might.
Quote:My personal theory as to why there are no riots currently is simple: Those players quit. The active EVE player base is less than 50% of what it was then. And a lot of the remaining population are new characters. None of you arguing with me was even playing anywhere *near* 2011. You never played the game as it was then, and you never will.
It's true. On the other hand my two regular fleetmates started in '06 and '10, so I'm not totally uninformed on the subject.
My personal theory as to why there are no riots now is simpler still; most players recognise that you've been able to buy and sell SP for years, and more generally that since the invention of the PLEX (well before 2011), deep RL pockets have been legitimately able to buy a substantial advantage in the game. Unlike yours it does have the merit of having some actual facts behind it. |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
253
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Posted - 2016.07.20 15:24:38 -
[22] - Quote
And yet, you *still* avoid my question then: Why, according to *you* were there riots in 2011 then?
You keep just ignoring this. If nobody ever cared about EVE moving towards Pay-To-Win - why did they riot about it in 2011?
Ignoring the entire question is also poor debating technique. Answer it or shut up. |
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
268
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Posted - 2016.07.20 15:53:28 -
[23] - Quote
This story right here tells me I should not renew my subscription.
Not that it matters. It is a very satisfying revenge story-for whoever has taken over CCP. How many plex did that fleet cost? This feature rewards bad players with big wallets. It rewards good players with big wallets even more: if one of us went and did what Lea Kaos/Quomnius Mosseranius/Kaldax did, we'd beat him solidly. I'm mostly a mission bear, but I know enough about mechanics to probably beat him with three T3C, or even the right mix of T1 ships. The Tengu wasn't using autotarget missiles, so jam that out (blackbird). Neut and burn the Legion (prophecyx2 should do it, or prophecy and brutix), and ignore the Moa for the moment. I just know better than to drop that much money on plex, and so do most of the rest of us. But in that corporate culture, they're not going to care about a few minnows dropping a pathetic $15/month subscription when they can get a couple of whales to spend $500+ to do what that multiboxer did.
Probably the reason this P2W game didn't feel quite like a P2W game was: it took a lot longer for it to become apparent, with careful planning heavily rewarded. And a lot of confusing mechanics. Now it's a lot faster.
A signature :o
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Areen Sassel
130
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Posted - 2016.07.21 18:55:35 -
[24] - Quote
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:And yet, you *still* avoid my question then: Why, according to *you* were there riots in 2011 then?
It's not pertinent.
"Why is no-one rioting over X in 2016?" "Well, X isn't a new development. It's been possible for years. It just got somewhat more convenient in 2016." "Ah, but people rioted over a new development in 2011! Explain that!"
That's not an argument; it's a non sequitur.
You're trying to imply that the 2011 riots were caused by something very like skill injectors, so the lack of riots now means the playerbase has changed; this is bobbins because the situations themselves are not similar - in 2011 there was a _new_ unwelcome development with the promise of more new unwelcome developments to come. You're trying to gloss over that by waving the bogeyman of "pay to win", but this isn't very convincing; it's been possible to pay cash for some advantage in EVE ever since CCP made it clear you were not just permitted but encouraged to dual-box.
Incidentally, you seem to have missed out quite a lot of your post, like the bit where you say "You're right, actually, I didn't force to you admit that, you said it right away." |
Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
264
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Posted - 2016.07.21 19:08:54 -
[25] - Quote
Yeah.... Riots over the mere threat of Pay-2-Win items in 2011 clearly bear no relation or even similarity to the actual release of Pay-2-Win items in 2016.... How could anyone ever think they were similar...
PLEX is a special case for a few reasons: #1 - The monetary advantage was offset by the hard SP limits that were in place at the time. #2 - The actual game advantage of the PLEX *item* went to the people in-game who *did not* spend RL $$$ on it. So the opposite of normal p2w.
Not that I expect you to understand either of those points, however painfully simple/obvious they may be to normal humans - because you are clearly either just trolling at this point or you are just a clueless idiot.
In either case, I'm tired of talking to you, so I'm going to stop following this thread. Have fun trolling yourself here as I'm sure you will |
om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
46
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Posted - 2016.07.21 22:59:47 -
[26] - Quote
Everybody calm down, oh my GHAD you're going to give yourselves skin failure. Maybe it's a boiling frog sort of thing, the Greed is Good article seemed like an elaborate troll and the reaction to it was just that: a reaction not a response. Shooting a monument in this game is like shining a torch at a tree, no money was harmed. Now we have the implementation of a streamlined version of the old (drop money be uber) that the character bazaar offered. It's now available to people who don't get the game and haven't taken the time to even try. Incidentally the Tengu pilot turned up in Help channel asking if there were clone soldiers in null. I replied in the negative and said the rats in null were worth the effort but not to lose a faction n deadspace T3 over it, or a billion isk pod. Tengu Maestro didn't cop to who i was (not good) and was all question marks as bubble camps and ratter hunters were raised by others. So definitely a few more crazy shiny losses to be wrung out of this pilot but the mystery remains, if you can drop hundreds on getting set up in the game, how fun is blapping rats worth about three cents going to be? For how long?
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Lt Mando
NO H0N0R
5
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Posted - 2016.07.21 23:33:03 -
[27] - Quote
Why does anyone care who buys skill points tho ? It really doesn't matter at all . |
om rootingking
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
46
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Posted - 2016.07.22 00:55:37 -
[28] - Quote
It wouldn't matter at all if it didn't change anything. The major changes are: pilot age is no longer knowledge useful in estimating how skilled they are, a very important change in a pvp game; new players can simply and easily start their experience able to lose huge and shiny, this makes huge and shiny beyond worthless; learning mechanics by making small, cheap mistakes can mean competence when the ability to control great assets or forces finally comes around. The chance to short circuit straight to what an outsider would call end-game content makes even large, immediately replaceable losses meaningless. Yeah people could always do that, but now it's linear and simplified for a buck, it changes things and that does matter. Not gonna shoot a monument over it, but who wants to play chess with someone who has a bucket of queens? Would anyone play chess if a bucket of queens was the new requisite to start?
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