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Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari Unscoped	Posted - 2007.03.08 02:59:00 - [1] Please read this before reading the rest, or posting: This is a whine thread. Should you dislike whine threads, exit thread left. This is also more about game and module theory than workable solutions. I'm aware i probably bring up unsolvable problems, but please read with an open mind. Why rigs? I ask again. Why rigs? We have T2, we have rediculously expensive yet (READ) rare officer mods and faction mods. Those still dont even come close to the bonus, say, a t2 rig could provide a shield tanking ship. Or an armor tanking ship. (not to mention damage rigs and so forth) The bonus rigging provides ships is rediculous in my opinion. So rediculous, that it makes any ship not fitting rigs obsolete for pvp combat. I say again. Any ship not fitting rigs is practically obsolete in pvp combat. So? Fit rigs! I should shouldn't I? What happens if i don't? Simple. I get flawlessly outclassed by someone who simply has more isk to burn than i do. I get outclassed by someone who has more isk to burn than I do I get ship classes. Smaller ships are cheaper, less effective versus bigger ships. I get module classes. Smaller class modules are less effective versus bigger targets and vice versa. You know? I even get T2. Its the 'elite' class of modules. Its 'the cream of the crop' if you will. T2, is really. expensive. I even get that. Its the best of the best, why should it be cheap? I'm even hip to the massive potential t2 weaponry etc has over its t1 variants. If you have the time to train for it, and the isk to spend for it, why not? Eve is all about balance. T2 is on the crusty edge of unbalancing the game, but luckily most pvp oriented players can afford it. If T2 is on the crusty edge of unbalancing eve, rigs are way, way, miles out and off the edge of unbalancing. I'll give you an example: When i go out roaming, or just cruising with friends, i know for a fact that every ship i'll come in contact with (save for the odd shuttle or noob ship) will be rigged. Why? Because they're .0/t2 mining/producing barons who can afford to spend 300m on a shield rig, or 200m on a nanopump. These rigs dont just make your ship better, they make it nearly unbeatable. If you plan on regular pvp (non piracy) you will not be able to compete without using rigs yourself. It's just like nos, if you dont have nos or a cap injector, your setup is crap, and will fail against basically any non frigate (actually, most frigates do fit nos) ship you encounter. Rigs have become the 'must fit' module of eve. If you dont have it, you better just forget about having any impact in the pvp area you enter. "But zav, what about officer mods, they're really really good at stuffs too!" Well, yes, they are, but they're not nearly as common/expensive/effective as rigs are. You can go out, right now, and buy a t2 shield rig. You could buy three if you want to, all that limits you is isk. You'd be hard pressed to find 3 xl gist boosters in one week let alone one day. "Lol zav, you're [a noob, afraid to fly in gangs, not hip with the times, poor, jealous] that's why you're whining about rigs" Yes i'm a noob, yes i dont really like flying in gangs much, i'm a bit old fashioned, yes i'm poor, and i pray to the isk gods that money comes cascading into my wallet like much rain so i am jealous. But thats not why i'm 'whining' about rigs. I'm not worried about me. I suck at pvp, i'm aware of that. But i'm also aware of many new players and startup corps who can't afford a rigged fleet who will get smashed over and over and over again solely because they lack the isk to afford the newest greatest rigged fleets. Eve shouldnt be only about isk, how many rigged ships your corp can afford, how long you can grind 10/10 plexes, how many t2 components and modules you can produce. It should be about willpower, innovation, and skill. This is speaking from the bottom of my heart, I truely dont want to see eve turn into a two dimensional isk-war game.
Samirol Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:07:00 - [2] there is something called tactics, they are better than any t2 rig or officer mod That's a Templar, an Amarrian fighter, used by carriers.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:21:00 - [3] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Fluffernator	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:25:00 - [4] I completely disagree. Its really not hard to get rigs. Train salvaging. Spam missions. Salvage missions. WHALA! rig there ya go. Rigs give bonuses to players who put forth effort. All I can tell you is stop whining and go make yourself some rigs, the end.
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:26:00 - [5] Rigs, unlike officer goods, are built in thus can be made and gain by the average joe with time unlik officer which is mainly alliance only from them claiming and guarding the space.
Pierre Jacquemein A Place for Valen Serenus Letum	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:34:00 - [6] Originally by: Fluffernator I completely disagree. Its really not hard to get rigs. Train salvaging. Spam missions. Salvage missions. WHALA! rig there ya go. Rigs give bonuses to players who put forth effort. All I can tell you is stop whining and go make yourself some rigs, the end. Exactly. It takes a while to get everything you need, but it's worth the ISK. Plus, while you are running missions, you are getting bounties and (from refining loot) minerals.
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari Unscoped	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:34:00 - [7] Edited by: Zavernus Hamarabi on 08/03/2007 03:33:26 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. Do you see what i mean about the concept of a 'must fit' module though m8? Does anyone? Does anyone see why thats not conducive to a balanced/fun game? Fun, key word. Fun, key word. Fun, is not farming the hell out of missions so i can get that one rig that'll finally get me on the same level as those i'm planning on taking on. Fun is not brown nosing every industrialist i can find on the off chance that they're a t2 rig producer. Fun used to be throwing some named t1, or some t2 mods on a cruiser/bc i had lying around, and going nucking futz in low sec/null sec. Perhaps i'm just being a fuddy duddy (im not a beta player, im from late mid 2005, so i hope i have some standing then) but rigs seem to take alot of the fun out of pvp. EDIT: When you read my post, please don't extrapolate what i'm saying into saying that eve should disintegrate into a wow style no-lose pvp system, but i think alot of people would agree that adding a prohibitive amount of time into fitting a proper pvp ship throws the pendulum way too far in the direction of the sake of 'investment in ones belongings'
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:35:00 - [8] Not every rich fool has 100M in rigs on their kestrels. I only rig T2 ships and fleet battleships 90% of the time. Crows that go over 10km/s without snakes and snipeing rokhs with 21k+ hardend sheilds ontop of 12k armor is just too sexy to pass up. They do add a bit more spice when kitting out a ship. I will admit for me rigs are more of a time investment than a ISK investment. I salvage like crazy to get the parts to build them. Hell my solo crow has a single salvager in the normaly wasted high slot. Unlike T2 and farming 0.0 deadspace complexes anyone can get in on this if they are willing to put in the effort. There's good isk to be had in the rig game even if one doesn't build them but rather sells the salvaged parts on the market.
Pierre Jacquemein A Place for Valen Serenus Letum	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:42:00 - [9] Why is picking up the salvage after you run a mission so bad? You can't have it both ways. Either you earn your rigs, modules, ships, etc. or CCP hands them to you (coughBOBcough).
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:45:00 - [10] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Not every rich fool has 100M in rigs on their kestrels. I only rig T2 ships and fleet battleships 90% of the time. Crows that go over 10km/s without snakes and snipeing rokhs with 21k+ hardend sheilds ontop of 12k armor is just too sexy to pass up. They do add a bit more spice when kitting out a ship. I will admit for me rigs are more of a time investment than a ISK investment. I salvage like crazy to get the parts to build them. Hell my solo crow has a single salvager in the normaly wasted high slot. Unlike T2 and farming 0.0 deadspace complexes anyone can get in on this if they are willing to put in the effort. There's good isk to be had in the rig game even if one doesn't build them but rather sells the salvaged parts on the market. I agree with you totally. I would disagree that anyone can get on the rig boat. I dont have time. Alot of people dont have time. I think on paper, rigs make a spicy damn setup. Having cool little mods, wings, tailpipes, hardeners and the such to add onto your ship is super cool on paper, but all that coolness is lost when you realize that unless you have serious isk to dish out (you'd agree you /have/ to have rigs on a BC for it to be effective?) or serious time to burn on salvaging, you're not in the market for rigs. I also agree that uber ships are way sexy, if i had the time, if my friends had time, ALL i'd be doing is salvaging left and right, but theres too many people i know that just play eve for a few hours a night, or just the weekends. CCP, a request: Remove nos. Reduce metagaming. Remove POS's and POS warfare. Remove rigs. Thank you, Zav
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Pierre Jacquemein Why is picking up the salvage after you run a mission so bad? You can't have it both ways. Either you earn your rigs, modules, ships, etc. or CCP hands them to you (coughBOBcough). But why, why would you intentionally make pvp, something that's reletively difficult to be competitive at (not talking about 'tactics' or 'kestral fleets', honest small-med gang engagements) even more difficult yet? Sure everyone's donkey gets an extra 300 pound load, but why add that load in the first place? Perhaps try to liken it to adding 5 minutes per mining cycle for the 'bears for 50% more ore. Sure they all have to do it, but why do it in the first place if /all/ of them /have/ to do it in the end? Rigs don't add much to the game, really. If i'm rigged, you better be too, and if we're both rigged, how interesting is that? Its not a goofy setup on a ship, its not a innovative way of fighting, it's just us both spending gobs and gobs of extra time to boost both our ships up to the same virtual level. CCP, a request: Remove nos. Reduce metagaming. Remove POS's and POS warfare. Remove rigs. Thank you, Zav
Pierre Jacquemein A Place for Valen Serenus Letum	Posted - 2007.03.08 03:54:00 - [12] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi but theres too many people i know that just play eve for a few hours a night, or just the weekends. I'm overloaded on hours this semester (i.e. I had to get permission because I'm taking so many classes). I only have time to play for an hour or two in the evenings and usually on the weekends. My progress on getting rigs is ******* slow. Spending time to get something worthwhile is a part of EVE and, heck, it's part of life. Instead of complaining about how expensive rigs are and how much they cost, I'm just saving up for them. After a few more weeks I might have enough salvage components to rig my Mega. It takes, but it's worth it. Stop complaining, you're not the only one who has to work to get anywhere.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.03.08 04:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Edited by: Zavernus Hamarabi on 08/03/2007 03:33:26 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. Do you see what i mean about the concept of a 'must fit' module though m8? Does anyone? Does anyone see why thats not conducive to a balanced/fun game? Fun, key word. Fun, key word. I do see what you mean. I just don't think they're truly "must fit". They just give another edge to people who have the time and inclination to grind, or already have enough resources that isk isn't such a big deal. What's bad about it isn't that you can't compete without grinding more, because you can, it's that it makes grinding an even bigger part of the game than it was. Again, a big fix would be making rigs have a chance of surviving ship destruction. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.08 04:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Originally by: Pierre Jacquemein Why is picking up the salvage after you run a mission so bad? You can't have it both ways. Either you earn your rigs, modules, ships, etc. or CCP hands them to you (coughBOBcough). But why, why would you intentionally make pvp, something that's reletively difficult to be competitive at (not talking about 'tactics' or 'kestral fleets', honest small-med gang engagements) even more difficult yet? Sure everyone's donkey gets an extra 300 pound load, but why add that load in the first place? Perhaps try to liken it to adding 5 minutes per mining cycle for the 'bears for 50% more ore. Sure they all have to do it, but why do it in the first place if /all/ of them /have/ to do it in the end? Rigs don't add much to the game, really. If i'm rigged, you better be too, and if we're both rigged, how interesting is that? Its not a goofy setup on a ship, its not a innovative way of fighting, it's just us both spending gobs and gobs of extra time to boost both our ships up to the same virtual level. Well yes, but all MMOs are like a giant spreadsheet in that capacity anyway. The point is that the other guy might not have those rigs, he might be using gasp different rigs. He might not have any rigs, have brought a friend along and your rigged ass is going to be made poorer anyway. Who knows?
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2007.03.08 04:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Edited by: Zavernus Hamarabi on 08/03/2007 03:33:26 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. Do you see what i mean about the concept of a 'must fit' module though m8? Does anyone? Does anyone see why thats not conducive to a balanced/fun game? Fun, key word. Fun, key word. I do see what you mean. I just don't think they're truly "must fit". They just give another edge to people who have the time and inclination to grind, or already have enough resources that isk isn't such a big deal. What's bad about it isn't that you can't compete without grinding more, because you can, it's that it makes grinding an even bigger part of the game than it was. Again, a big fix would be making rigs have a chance of surviving ship destruction. Rigs shall never survive as the own pilot can't remove them all, let alone one. Rigs are just another one upper. Rigs if you are smart mostly cost you less then 20mil a pop. Rigs have a Con as well if you haven't noticed. Use Goonswarm mentality, 500mil BS vs 2-3 BS which total 500mil.
Ezra Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.08 04:43:00 - [16] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi I also agree that uber ships are way sexy, if i had the time, if my friends had time, ALL i'd be doing is salvaging left and right, but theres too many people i know that just play eve for a few hours a night, or just the weekends. So? Spend 2-3 nights salvaging. I haven't done it myself, but I've heard it's quite easy to buy mission BMs dirt cheap for salvaging and even get them free from mission runners too lazy to loot. Or just wait for rig prices to go down. If you look at market history they have not leveled off yet - they are still going down, more slowly than before but definately still dropping. ------------ Ezra Cornell
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.08 04:43:00 - [17] EvE for the most part is a measure of time and activity. How many skillpoints one has is really how old their charater is and how active it has been during that time. How much ISK and assets one has is pretty much directly tied to how much online time thet have grinding it out in any number of ways....Well at least for the 99.999% of us that arn't blessed with luck. Rigs are no different. To get them in quanity one has to A) NPC/Mission/Mine/whatever like hell to get the ISK to buy them or B) Salvage everything in sight to get the parts to build them. Both options take time and effort. Just like everything else in eve. Do rigs overall scew the ballance of things in PvP? I don't think so at this time. Some of the penilities they carry can be quite painfull. Megathrons moveing slower than a raven for starters or passive tanked drakes that stickout like a sore thumb on scan probes in deadspace for another. Better yet try useing a turret rig on a battleship hull, AWU 5 not much help there. The only area where rigs come close to being over-the-top is with the nano-battleships. It's not really the I-stabs or the nanos that really make these ships go, it's the 2-3 PIV rigs cranking the T2/faction MWD boost ammount to absurd levels.
FawKa Gallente x13 Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 06:20:00 - [18] simple reason: To extend fights as rigs were suposed to be for defence. HP buff didnt really do that much (not including capitals), but rigs surdently did.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Viliny Caldari principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.08 06:38:00 - [19] As i understood it, Rigs were supposed to be some... well rig, a pile of bolts and stuff duct taped together and slapper on your ship. They weren't ment to be so expensive, but they became that because of a rather poor drop rate of the components, it's also been worked towards it's original thought out form by altering drop rates... could be remembering wrong...
king jks New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.03.08 06:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Samirol there is something called tactics, they are better than any t2 rig or officer mod QFT. I have a rigged and faction fitted pilgrim, it would work perfectly fine without rigs and faction mods, but it just makes it that much better, no ship needs rigs and faction mods to work right. ------------------------ Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. -Albert Einstein
Copine Callmeknau The Splinter Syndicate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 06:55:00 - [21] Edited by: Copine Callmeknau on 08/03/2007 06:52:01 Rigs aren't that expensive, and they aren't a must fit item, just like implants, faction mods, T2 and hardwirings aren't must fit items. I don't have rigs on my ships (will do in a week or two though), and I'm still having fun in EVE. Maybe you should something worthwhile to complain about ----- Originally by: wrong on so many levels you couldn't be more wrong if you were tuxford
Corwain Gallente Zero Team	Posted - 2007.03.08 07:35:00 - [22] I haven't fitted any of my PvP ships with rigs, and I'll tell you why: I tend to fly solo...and any ship with enough firepower applied to it pops...FAST. And I've got plenty of sweet kills too, so...not everyone needs to use rigs to PvP.
Yarek Balear Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.03.08 07:49:00 - [23] Pretty much arguments that have been laid down already, but I'll repeat the ones I agree with just for effect. Rigs aren't overly expensive like officer mods. Rigs are available to ALL - the BPOs are dirt cheap - the components drop from all NPCs, including high sec. Rigs allow a level of customisation of a ship that isn't necessarily that obvious. The effect rigs have on a ship are no different to whether someone fits basic non-named T1 stuff on their ship versus someone else fitting T2 modules on theirs. Yes there is a cost difference and yes there is a performance difference. Rigs are no different but they do provide more variety when coupled witht he variety of module layouts. Please don't post asking for less diversity in the game when one of the things that keeps EVE alive is exactly that diversity, particularly when that diversity is availble to all...
Revolution Rising Minmatar Venture Research and Resources	Posted - 2007.03.08 08:50:00 - [24] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. /signed. However I add this: the prices ARE dropping. And I sell my rigs in the outskirts of Tash-Murkon for Jita prices because mostly it's my (friendly) alliance here and I can make enough of it for a free one myself. The BPO's are cheap for them, just gotta wait for the market to flood with parts more. Burned logic circuits are flooding up and people will have to drop their prices to some kind of competitive level soon (I mostly build drone rigs). RR. CEO Venture Research and Resources. VRR Homepage
Neon Genesis Gallente The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.03.08 09:09:00 - [25] I have yet to fit a rig and am pvp'ing just fine.
Mathias Orsen	Posted - 2007.03.08 11:20:00 - [26] I might be going on the edge with this one... but claiming rigs are a must fit module may be true but that is in most part because the slot is there.. Weapons and a tank are also must fit modules. Truth is though, If a ship has 8 high slots and ony 7 weapons will fit, then it becomes a "must" to put something in the last slot even if it is rediculous or completely useless. Such as a small nosf on a fully passive drake because it is the only remotely usable thing that can be equipped. Rig slots are there so therefore must be used up. This os officially not true but we feel it is. Claiming the rigs cause imbalance because some people may not be able to afford rigged pvp ships is no different than saying t2 is imbalance cause you can't even afford named gear. Also much like claiming an imbalance because your snipping mega wants 7x 425mm IIs when you can only afford to buy 4 of them. Before Price on rigs can be a concern.. things like the price on t2 heavy launchers for a drake are to firstly be considered. The need for t2 rigs is far less than the need for t2 launchers. t1 rigs work just fine, t2 gives a small increase. But t1 vs t2 launchers on the other hand is the difference between being able to use missiles that do a little bit of damage or missiles that can do alot of damage with a faster RoF. Those much usefull t1 rigs can be obtained for free with a little work or about 10-15m each isk. Those much needed t2 launchers however will cost you 70m+ or an insane amount of work and/or luck to get for free. -------------------------------------- ---"What's in your wallet?"--- "There are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration.... I'll take what I can get"
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 11:36:00 - [27] Ships not using rigs are not obsolete. Sure at Battleship level having one or 2 is becoming more and more needed to be on competitive footing. But all have drawbacks.. with exception of a few ones that I wthink Should have soem drawbacks. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Ezra Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.08 13:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Revolution Rising Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 08/03/2007 03:18:07 It seems like your overstating the argument, but basically I agree. They exacerbate wealth differences, which were already bad enough. OTOH, it's not clear that either the prices or the component drop rates have settled yet. Not that I think they'll ever get trivial in cost without a major overhaul. What's really unfortunate is that rig costs don't scale up with ship class in any way. I also wish that rigs had a chance of dropping when the ships equipping them were destroyed. That would do a lot to balance things out. /signed. However I add this: the prices ARE dropping. And I sell my rigs in the outskirts of Tash-Murkon for Jita prices because mostly it's my (friendly) alliance here and I can make enough of it for a free one myself. The BPO's are cheap for them, just gotta wait for the market to flood with parts more. Burned logic circuits are flooding up and people will have to drop their prices to some kind of competitive level soon (I mostly build drone rigs). RR. Yup. Rig prices are going to continue dropping and possibly crash. If you shop around for components, you can build most rigs for yourself for around half the price current market sell orders. 75% worst case. As more components become available and more trading of components between regions occurs, the imbalance of component prices between regions will smooth out and rig prices will drop. (Right now it's not an issue of rig manufacturers making huge profit margins, but more that some components are far more expensive in some regions than others and so far people have been willing to pay the extra price for NOT having to fly all over the universe to build one rig cheaply.) Also, as more salvagers invest their money in salvage tackle rigs (which have gone WAY down in price over the past four weeks or so), that will also cause component prices to drop. ------------ Ezra Cornell
Zavernus Hamarabi Caldari Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 13:17:00 - [29] It's 6am, so this probably isn't going to come out right. What i meant by 'more difficult' is that before, say, you'd have to rat for an hour, or do missions for an hour to get enough isk to fit a decent pvp ship. Now, you have to rat for six hours, or do missions for six hours to fit the same relative level ship. I see where ccp was going with the rigs, and i totally dig the theory. It's cool adding slots to ships. Its another variable in your ship fitting, its just the fact that those variables in ship fittings cost many many many more hours to get, or are prohibitively expensive (spending 60m on modules for ANY non bs class ship is prohibitively expensive) If they were buildable with regualar minerals like every other module, or the salvagables dropped with regular loot maybe we wouldnt be having this discussion. If that were the case /everyone/ could fit rigs, not just people with enough time/money/alts/luck to fit them. They'd be yet another facet you could work with when fitting a ship. Maybe this is just like when they released cruisers? Everyone had to have one or you'd be roasted by those who had them. Maybe this all needs time to balance, but without a fix to the nano-rediculousness and maybe someday the fix to the absurd builds you can obtain with rigging (nuts and bolts taped together gives you a 30% resist bonus? Huh?) they'll end up just like any module, another way to vary your fitting. CCP, a request: Remove nos. Reduce metagaming. Remove POS's and POS warfare. Remove rigs. Thank you, Zav
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.08 13:29:00 - [30] Rigs have huge prices just becausepeople are willingto pay stupid prices. Because the cost to make them do not reach 10 M for most rigs. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:25:00 - [31] Edited by: Christopher Dalran on 08/03/2007 15:24:36 I was in 0.0 flying around in a ship with the salvage tackle I rigs fitted salvaging all the rats that people were killing. Out there people cant be bother to waste time salvaging or looting their wrecks unless they might drop officer loot so you can basically salvage non stop out there without ever shooting a shot and most of them are battleships that drop a TON of salvage mats or battle cruisers that drop nearly as much. Rats drop loot much more often than mission spawns so if you realy want to get salvage fast fly to 0.0. I believe in 20 minutes i had enough materials to build 2 rigs. Battleships drop alot of parts and salvage rigs mean you rarely fail to get components (salvage attempt failure is NOT the same thing, you alwayse get to retry. The rigs reduce the chance of a success that fails to find anthing). You'll hear all sorts of people claiming you can make more money just ratting and give that as a reason for rigs to be expensive but the simple truth is that alot of the time people are already ratting so the only things floating around are wrecks. Instead of wasting time doing nothing you can do as i did and fly around salvaging. Unfortunatly i'm not selling any rigs for a while, their going into high class pvp ships for a fleet at the present moment. I was thinking 10-12 mill would be a good price to sell them at as the market is quite saturated with rigs with a price between 20-30 mill. Oh and i'm sure everyone is aware but the drop tables for salvage was recently expanded, more factions are dropping more of the parts so its much easier to get what you need. Contaminated nanite fluid used to be next to impossible for me to get as sansha rats were very rare near me but since they were added to the sansha faction building armor rigs has been no issue.
DarkElf Caldari Veto.	Posted - 2007.03.08 15:45:00 - [32] I read you entire post about t2 and t1 etc and i really don't see the difference between having 1 ship have t1 and the person with more isk having t2. it's just another step and it makes sense. rigs allow ppl to change their ships in awesome ways and makes anotehr variable in fitting them out. and yes of course the person with the most isk will win in a straight up tank v dps battle, same as it was before. but... tactics + brain = win over rigs + T2 DE
Centurin Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.03.08 16:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi I'm not worried about me. I suck at pvp, i'm aware of that. But i'm also aware of many new players and startup corps who can't afford a rigged fleet who will get smashed over and over and over again solely because they lack the isk to afford the newest greatest rigged fleets. Its not that they have rigs. Its just that they have way more SPs than you do. ----------------------------------------------- "It's great playing Caldari Online, isn't it?" by Xori Ruscuv
Kuno Hida	Posted - 2007.03.08 17:34:00 - [34] 1. Anyone can get rigs given time. The materials required to get them are not monopolized, and cannot be. 2. 'I don't have the time to...' you then also do not have the time to mine, or to train how to build rigs...since they are so time consuming. If you want the results of someone else's time, you have to pay. 3. If You can afford a Myrmidon (with 4 of those Nos you want removed) you can take a few more days to buy your rigs, or mission some for isk, so you can compete. Life (and strangely EvE) is unfair. Learn to compete, or don't act so surprised people don't care to hear your views on 'fair'.
Jamius	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:15:00 - [35] To the OP. I partially agree with what you are saying and, at the moment, a rich player can indeed seriously kit out their ships compared to a poorer player and rigs further widens their ability to gain the upper hand. However, I think that if someone does indeed spend more on their ship, it should be better. They are putting more at risk and no matter how good the setup is, they can still easily get popped by greater numbers in cheaper ships. I recently lost a good Raven setup to a nanophoon. Without focusing on the crazy current nano-ship situation as this is beside the point here, my opponent had spent much much more than me on his overall setup, and combined with him being a good pilot, it's fair enough that he won. He spent more and he risked more and good on him. I think things will settle down and rigs will become cheaper anyway - it would happen quicker if there was not a multi-stage failure mechanism to salvaging rig parts in the 1st bloomin place (said by angry Jamius alt that has so far failed to get any t2 rig parts succesfully with salvaging at level 5 ).
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:40:00 - [36] Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Fun, is not farming the hell out of missions so i can get that one rig that'll finally get me on the same level as those i'm planning on taking on. Fun is not brown nosing every industrialist i can find on the off chance that they're a t2 rig producer. Fun used to be throwing some named t1, or some t2 mods on a cruiser/bc i had lying around, and going nucking futz in low sec/null sec. I'll have to agree with ya there m8. If mods rigs, t2 ships, all didn't cost so damned much, we wouldn't have to farm missions for two weeks just to buy another ship & mods. People in general would pvp more often if it wasn't so isk intensive. Sure we could just fly tech1 fitted cruisers (and I do sometimes), but chances are you'll just lose the ship... good tactics or not. The addition of rigs certainly doesn't help, since we now need to spend another 100m on our rigs to keep our ships on par with the competition. My pvp Myrmidon is worth somewhere between 300 and 400m, and it's not even faction fitted... just tech2 gear and a few armor rigs.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2007.03.08 18:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Kruel Originally by: Zavernus Hamarabi Fun, is not farming the hell out of missions so i can get that one rig that'll finally get me on the same level as those i'm planning on taking on. Fun is not brown nosing every industrialist i can find on the off chance that they're a t2 rig producer. Fun used to be throwing some named t1, or some t2 mods on a cruiser/bc i had lying around, and going nucking futz in low sec/null sec. I'll have to agree with ya there m8. If mods rigs, t2 ships, all didn't cost so damned much, we wouldn't have to farm missions for two weeks just to buy another ship & mods. People in general would pvp more often if it wasn't so isk intensive. Sure we could just fly tech1 fitted cruisers (and I do sometimes), but chances are you'll just lose the ship... good tactics or not. The addition of rigs certainly doesn't help, since we now need to spend another 100m on our rigs to keep our ships on par with the competition. My pvp Myrmidon is worth somewhere between 300 and 400m, and it's not even faction fitted... just tech2 gear and a few armor rigs. QFT there. sgb
icechip	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:15:00 - [38] I dont see the complaint here , basically rigs ,are like adding new shiney rims to your car. This is def a whine, Im only a 6 month old char, i have rigs, i built it myself cost me 2 mill for a warhead catalist rig, for my drake. So what the wine, The rigs ,make ships less cookie cutter. If your *****ing now wait till they release Heat!
Jefferson Dubois Midnight Enterprises	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:21:00 - [39] With very little research and travel you can buy all the salvage parts you need for a rig and build it yourself for 10 million and resell it for 20-30 million. No mission running or billion dollar wallet needed. It all comes down to hustle. Can't knock the hustle.
easei Energy.	Posted - 2007.03.08 19:59:00 - [40] Go to jita/(motsu might be better?) and look at the price of salvaged parts. Note that with the exception of cap/speed/cargohold rig parts they are only a few thousand isk per unit. You can build yourself shield/armor/electronics rigs for cheap, then look at the prices people charge for them. If you have truble making isk buy parts in bulk and sell the rigs you don't use. When I can assemble a rig for like 5-10 mil, turn around and make a 15-20 mil profit on them, why not. Basically if you can't be bothered to make your own, you deserve to pay the resellers tax. And tech 2 ships/parts Read the dev blog here Linkage They realized invention didn't make the prices drop as much as they wanted so they are uncapping datacores and increasing skillbook drops. Soon you'll be able to make tech 2 part for yourself with a little bit of training. Also just wondering why you rule out pirating in terms of rigs, are pirates not allowed to fit rigs on their ships? Or are they just more skilled and therefore don't need them to kill people? Admitting that rigs have less to do with a ship then your ability to pilot it. I haven't fit a single rig to any of my ships (even my mission/ratting raven), not because I can't afford it, but because in my experience pvping/(and PVE) I've never needed to. PVP in my experience has been getting slaughterd or slaughtering, close fights are few and far between. The small percentages that rigs give as a bonus would not have in any way saved me (or the people I shot) from destruction.
Kyreax Deepspace Exploration Biscuit Repair Associates	Posted - 2007.03.08 20:52:00 - [41] meh. Our wee little corp has gathered over 10,000 pieces of salvage casually since salvage was released. It just takes time. Rigs are cheap, save a few. most in the 20 mil a piece range. We've built a few as well, and sold them for profit. Rigs are just another way for players with low skill points to compete with high sp players. I kinda like the flavor they add...it makes some ships more surprising to fight. I'm not sure where you're getting the 200m figures from. Rigs have dropped way down since they came out. I'm sure there's more tweaks to be made. just my 2 cents
Ratey	Posted - 2007.03.08 21:45:00 - [42] Edited by: Ratey on 08/03/2007 21:42:03 For fun, driving around over 9k/s with a stock MWD II in my inty. oh yah, prices? I salvage and make my own. The BPOs are cheap.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.08 22:17:00 - [43] THE O.P. IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT TWO THINGS: * IN A RIGGED-VS-UNRIGGED COMBAT, THE RIGGED SHIP WILL WIN MOST OF THE TIME, EVEN WITH A CLASS DIFFERENCE * RIGS SIMPLY COST WAY TOO MUCH RIGHT NOW Problem is, CCP stated several times already that they INTENDED rigs to be affordable for just about anybody on just about any ship (maybe with the exception of T1 frigates, but that's about it). The price range should have been at most 2-3 mil ISK for the most expensive (versatile and/or powerful) ones, and WAY under 1 mil for the "specialised" ones. Problem is, CCP screwed up, royally. They screwed up the salvage drop rates. People (including me) have been screaming their lungs out (or typing their fingers out, whatever) even since BEFORE Kali/Revelations hit TQ (from SiSi testing) about several things: * that rigs are completely imbalanced in benefits compared to eachother * that stack-nerfing in same "stack" as modules (instead of separately) further increase this previous issue * that the specific combination between an annoying collection process, low component drop rates and the specific material manufacture "composition" (type and amount) will generate rig prices that are far above "affordable" for most people Were we right ? Yes. Did they say they wanted rigs to be what they're not? Yes. Did they listen to us ? No. Will they listen now ? UNLIKELY. Things like this **** me off badly, but hey, we're kind of getting used to being screwed over on a daily basis, aren't we ? _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.03.08 23:46:00 - [44] So you need rigs? Thats not true. Without rigs you can still easily win against all the players that engage your tanking bs and suddenly your force recons decloak...The uber rig power isnt gonna stop that _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Shismo	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:11:00 - [45] It does seem kind of silly that a mass of rubber bands and chewing gum holding togeather a bunch of scrap parts cost more than a ship=P I was under the impression that rigs where going to simply be an added level of customization, in the sense that everyone would be able to have every single ship full up with rigs, and that the point was people being able to further specialize their ships, to the point that the rigs themselves arent even anything extra as far as effort goes, only a choice that says "i want my genericshiptype to be THIS kind of ship" and then you dig around for the rigs to do it. I can see, like everything else in the game, there perhaps being some elite super rare expensive rigs, but i was under the impression that the rig slots where going to be filled as part of the initial ship-fitting process, even on an ibis.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:14:00 - [46] Originally by: Shismo I was under the impression that rigs where going to simply be an added level of customization, in the sense that everyone would be able to have every single ship full up with rigs, and that the point was people being able to further specialize their ships, to the point that the rigs themselves arent even anything extra as far as effort goes, only a choice that says "i want my genericshiptype to be THIS kind of ship" and then you dig around for the rigs to do it. That's EXACTLY what the devs SAID they wanted rigs to be, when they were being tested on SiSi and the (now closed down) "Kali test" forum section was fired up and working overtime. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:30:00 - [47] I'm going to sound rude. This is an MMORPG. Not an FPS. If you want a fair fight: Go play on the test server. If you want to spend more time shooting: Go play on the test server. If you want less risk in PvP: Go play on the test server.
Shismo	Posted - 2007.03.09 01:56:00 - [48] Originally by: Qolde I'm going to sound rude. This is an MMORPG. Not an FPS. If you want a fair fight: Go play on the test server. If you want to spend more time shooting: Go play on the test server. If you want less risk in PvP: Go play on the test server. Well, considering its an mmoRPG, how about we dont want a bunch of fried circuit boards and scrap metal glued togeather to cost more than a brand new space craft? While i agree with your above points, rigs are just stupid the way they are now, and its clear they arent ment to be the way they are now. (or my bantam wouldnt have three rig slots)
Kur'Dekaija Atomic Heroes The OSS	Posted - 2007.03.09 08:50:00 - [49] why are ppl whining? do 1-2 lvl 4 mission and you got yourself enough isk for most type of rigs?? or do what everyone else have been saying, make them yourself. Ive casually ratted in a crappy 0.0 system(12 belts) for 2 days, 1-2 hours at a time and I got enough parts to make 1 rig. I even had to share the belts.
Qolde Minmatar Rising Knights SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:27:00 - [50] They are too expensive. I agree with that. I decided to get into building them, and found out something. You have to travel to the ends of the universe to get the different pieces at fair prices. Traders know this, and they buy where they are cheap, then sell them for more where they are rare, taking a fair amount of pieces out of circulation for people who are looking to build rigs. It's fair I guess, but that's the reason why they are so expensive. Also, people don't regularly take salvagers to pvp. Makes the pieces even rarer. Nobody wants to salvage their NPC wrecks, because they can't just dock and sell them for a good price, and nobody wants to travel through 9 regions looking for good prices to buy these things that nobody wants to waste time acquiring, since they can't sell them for a good price.

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