this has been around for at least as long as i have been playing,
yeah the hauler should inherit the flag.
then again crimewatch as a whole needs a good looking at and this i would imagine is quite far down the list of stuff to unfuck

this has been around for at least as long as i have been playing,
yeah the hauler should inherit the flag.
then again crimewatch as a whole needs a good looking at and this i would imagine is quite far down the list of stuff to unfuck

I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.

Agreed. Crimewatch is trash and has only made things worse for everyone, while all they need to do is make highsec safe. Prohibit using any weapons. Poof! - problem solved.

I vote for #2. I would love to be able to join random mining fleets and turn their orcas into suspects ripe for murdering.

Presumably they would make it so the orca can refuse sketchy loot, and/or the weapon safety would also govern the ability of sketchy people to place sketchy loot in one's hold.

This sounds like it could be an exploit, but then again you never know. Have you petitioned it?

Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.

Kippy, you've been back to antiganking me for how long? Two days now? And you're already crying to CCP? I guess I shouldn't expect much more from an antiganker, but it does seem a bit too soon.

Please Jason, stay on topic. Do you have any real suggestions on how to fix this circumvention of the suspect timer?

1. This mechanic has been around forever. You seem to be implying it is somehow getting around the rules or intentions of the mechanics, but I don't see any reason why this is anything but working as intended. Afterall, CCP would have done something after years of pilots utilizing this mechanic if it was truly broken.

2. You are thinking through the process incorrectly. The suspecting frigate isn't really moving from the can directly to the fleet hangar. This mechanic is essentially a duplicate of how POS structures transfer stuff. The only requirement to move any m3 of stuff between structures is that you be in a ship, not a just a pod. Why is this? Well, the stuff isn't really moving directly into the next structure. What actually would need to happen is the stuff be loaded into your ship and you fly it over to the next structure. Obviously, this would make for some very dull content so CCP does it for you. All you see is the stuff moving from structure to structure as if it was being jettisoned into space towards the next structure like some high stakes space frisbee golf. The same process happens during the looting process. Stuff gets moved from the wreck, to your cargo, to the fleet hangar. All this is done automatically for you because who wants to sit there and unload a 1,000,000 m3 wreck 500 m3 at a time with their heron.

3. As others have started to point out, even if you remove the ability to safely move loot into a fleet hangar there are a handful of alternatives to perform the same task and still produce secured loot and a green safety DST. "Fixing" this mechanic isn't going to change much, only make a currently simple process more complex. CCP has been trying to remove unnecessary complexity from Eve for quite some time, I doubt they will ever reverse that trend.

4. Just because you can't find a consistent counter to this type of looting doesn't mean there isn't one out there already. Maybe all it takes to "fix" this mechanic is a bit of ingenuity on your end. Not to mention there are plenty of scenarios where looting into a fleet hangar with a throwaway frigate or rookie ship isn't viable or the situations where you have no choice but to suspect the DST/orca/freighter.

Anti ganking back at what they are doing best: crying on the forums.

Thanks for your tears OP

Anti ganking back at what they are doing best: crying on the forums.

Thanks for your tears OP

Gankers/looters have been using this little trick for sometime, and it seems to be growing in popularity because it is successful in circumventing risk vs reward crime mechanic.

Step one - Gank
Step two - Bring in a noob or a cheap frig to the wreck.
Step Three - Bring a Bustard to wreck
Step Four - Use Noobship as the sacrificial ship to move the wreck items into the Bustard. Noob ship goes suspect, but bustard stays normal. Even though it is now holding ganked illegal loot. If noob ship gets popped, repeat step four.

Step five - Fly illegal loot away safely in bustard that is not flashy yellow with no risk.

This has nothing to do with ganking. Ganking is a valid mechanic of the game, high sec should NOT be completely safe. Lets stay on topic. Its is about the exploit of looting.

If you take a step back and look at the big picture. They are changing the game in ways that are ruining the way you choose to play it. They aren't actually whining, they are a slow methodical steam roller that is outright flattening you play style.

Don't call them whiners, call them winners! (it's more accurate)

Delicious!

...in a way that would allow us to wreck highsec even more.

Wait...I thought you guys were *saving* high sec...

*dreams shattered*

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do that will not easily be circumvented by using other containers and/or put those that use fleet hangers as risked at being suspect flagged through no action of their own. There is no point wasting development time on an attempted solution that will just be circumvented almost as easily, or make using fleet hangers much more risky to solve this.

The correct solution is to make the goods themselves "stolen" and holding them turn you suspect rather than the flag being given for just looting. Perhaps then stolen flag can be then removed from the goods at a station for a small fee or after some time. But unfortunately the database doesn't work that way and giving items that flag isn't possible so we are left with a system where players can launder the stolen goods in space.

There are other options though. If you are trying to mess with gankers, their looters are doing nothing that you can't also do. You too can steal the loot with minimal risk using an noobship. It's maybe a little more risk than sitting there behind the protection of CONCORD in a fast-locking ship waiting for a target to go suspect so you can shoot them like fish in a barrel, but not much. Just get a friend with a fleet hanger and scoop the loot before the gankers. Or scoop it in a combat ship, stabbed hauler or one of the many other ways you can grab the loot.

It always comes back to the fact that if you give players safety, the bad guys will find ways to use that safety against other players. Moving goods around highsec is extremely safe so in the end there is not much you are going to be able to do once the loot has been scooped. In this case, the pirate is the one who can secure the goods using safety of highsec giving the anti-gankers a taste of the problem of removing loot from another player who is under the protection of highsec mechanics.

Not sure why you call whining to the developers to change the game because you are to bad at it to win if they don't change it in your favor "winning". Must be some new thing from another generation.

Also just to be clear, I am almost always in favor of the ideas the anti-gankers bring up to fix something, since they are usually so stupid it would completely break the game in a way that would allow us to wreck highsec even more.

gank the bustard?

Wreck highsec... quite the drama you make up! Cats and Dogs living together. Wrath of god!

Tears are absent of this post, just there desire to make the game fair for gankers and for everyone else.

You must be new and don't understand how this works.

Threads calling for nerfs or buffs to your specific playstyle because you can't cut it with the current rules are by definition tears. Not to be confused with concerns about upcoming changes not yet in the game which is something completely different. You anti-ganker seam to confuse the two a lot. Well you are so bad in the game why should it be different in the forums...

Having experienced multiple nerf iterations I can tell you how this will work out. You obviously expect everything will stay the same and you get a bunch of yellow haulers to kill. That's not what will happen.

In the best case scenario the gankers will adapt, everything will be more or less the same and you will be back on the forums crying for the next nerf. That is how it usually works.

In any other case it will most likely introduce a new game mechanic which is confusing or completely unknown to most people except those who actually care about how the game works, like for example the "gankers", and which can potentially be used against all the carebears who did not bother to read the patch notes in the first place.

Like the options? not? why not start to work with the current game mechanics today? If anti-ganking would actually do something and not constantly lose and seriously suck at the game we wouldn't have another thread about wreck looting since the hauler would still be alive. This whole thread is a testament to your inability to actually prevent ganks.

I mean all you can do is whore on CONCORD killmails for ships who will be killed by NPCs anyway. I don't believe for a second that you will actually shoot if the looter is in something else than a noob ship. You will probably start crying fo NPC assistance against suspect targets or something.

It is illogical and unrealistic when frigate with 500m3 move cargo from wreck with volume 60 000m3 to another ship in one step. When frigate after looting turn to suspect, then the loot had to be on board of the frigate. But this not true, player in frigate move loot direct to fleet hangar - and then must be suspect player in ship with fleet hangar. Or frigate move loot first to its board, turn to suspect, and then move loot to fleet hangar of second ship.

Solution is easy: player can move contents to fleet hangar only from his own ship.

Besides that, stealed loot should be illegal goods and everyone with illegal goods on board should be suspect. The same mechanic like someone steal loot from wreck or container.

Otherwise "every idiots ALWAYS wins"

I still think unfucking crime watch as a whole is a better idea.

Making the loot instead of the act is certainly possible, it would involve an extra database field for every single item in the game to carry the illegally/legally looted flag, unfortunately the overhead on the database would be prohibitive and cause more problems than it solves.

TL;DR CCP could fix it, but it's not necessarily a good idea for them to do so.

Don't worry, there are much less ressource intensive ways to implement this.

Since you seem so confident in how the Legacy Code works and how the servers handle stress. Please explain?

2) Gank the bustard

Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the Tankability

I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.

I see several possible counters to this looting tactic:
1) Gank the rookie ship before it loots
2) Gank the bustard
3) Bump the bustard away from the wreck
4) Shoot the wreck before it gets looted
5) Loot the wreck before someone else loots it

and last but not least...

6) Don't get ganked! (and if it was someone else who got ganked, why are you trying to deny the ganker their spoils? You meanie!)

In any case, someone is going through the effort of using two accounts in order to loot, this should result in some additional benefits.

Care to share the fit you are using? Because I suspect you are exaggerating a bit...unless you are only looking at tank vs catalysts and assuming nobody could ever use any other ship for ganking...

[Bustard, 285K]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

OH Stats:
285K EHP (369K vs Anitmatter 382K vs Void)
90+ Resists across the board for shields
689.6 Passive recharge

You'll rarely see one like that in this situation though, at the very least it should have a MWD on it to get into warp faster and give you some sort of chance to get back to the gate if you get bumped. So realistically you're looking at 170K EHP.

Hmmm, good luck with that. A Bustard T2 Buffer fit for highsec gets about 275K EHP (with heat) and a passive tankability of 800+ DPS. An active one gets about double the Tankability

but it's soooooo hard /s
I mean there's litterally a trillion ways to avoid getting ganked...
So if you get ganked, you defo deserved it

@op
Whatever happens concerning this, AG will keep crying about how CODE. can still do *insert CODE. activity here* even after it got nerfed to shizzle.
The only way AG can adapt is thro.. oh wait.
AG can't adapt.
They prefer sperging tears all over the forums so that CCP makes the game easier for them (in tthe hopes that they can stop failing one day)

This gameplay is a good example of emergent gameplay. The current mechanism fits the risk/reward for ganking and provides an opportunity for interesting gameplay as there is nothing to stop other parties from going for the loot too. If you want the loot and/or the killmails you will have to man up and put on your big-boy-britches.

Sadly enough the AntiGankers see player interaction as one of the least desirable aspects of EVE so their "solutions" always involve introducing more game mechanics and never involve undocking and pewing at other ships (unless it is whoring on concord kills).

I ask for a level playing field, and seems like gankers just want to keep a loophole that as allowed them to score billions... trillions of ISK in loot over the years, so I understand you want nothing to change, but it does not mean it it won't.

That isn't even an EVE thing, that is just life.

*Nobody* wants "a level playing field" - everybody wants every advantage they can get in every situation....

And yet, it constantly surprises people...

Please explain your comment. You said it "fits the risk/reward". Where is the the risk? a Noob ship that gets alphed? So that a Phat Bustard can quickly swoop in and fly away with Millions.. Billions of loot avoiding the suspect tag? Bustard getting ganked....? Risk? Not FY, concord on grid to prevent a gank... safely docks. So please.... tell me more about that.

I ask for a level playing field, and seems like gankers just want to keep a loophole that as allowed them to score billions... trillions of ISK in loot over the years, so I understand you want nothing to change, but it does not mean it it won't.

I ask for a level playing field

more perspective. When us nullsec duders blow up an Orca, a DST or a Freighter, we too have to hold the field long enough for our loot truck to arrive. Our truck is at considerable risk doing so- why isn't yours? Special snowflake needs special treatment? Highsec rules already are really soft on you; if you can't stand the idea of people actually shooting at your industrial, maybe EvE is not for you.

The transport for the loot has the exact same risk the original Freighter had, similar to the scenario in nullsec. It's just that CONCORD "protects" both ships in Highsec. Anti-ganking is perfectly free to shoot at the industrial, I don't think someone has a problem with that or cries for special protection. On the contrary, anti-ganking is here crying for a special snowflake rule to get an easy kill without sacrificing ships to CONCORD.

It does not even matter if they get what they want. The issue is not the current game mechanic, it's players like the op who are so bad at EVE they always cry for more changes in their favor. If CCP carebro enters the thread and brings forth that they implement said special snowflake mechanic to "balance" something you can bet it will take them only a few minutes to create the next thread full of tears about the next thing they think is the problem why they suck so much.

This "one more nerf"-thing is going on for years and they eventually always get what they want because of how hard they cry. You say the highsec rules are "soft on us"?? Why do you think that is the case? A decade of carebear tears, that's why. And you can't really blame us if we then take those rules and use them for our own advantage. For example, why is it so hard to kill a DST? CONCORD buffs, tank buff, who was asking for that and is now crying that we can use them too?

Maybe I was not clear enough. It really does not matter if they implement it. As mentioned before several times, the problem is not the game mechanic. It is just plain stupid to expect that changing this will mean the looter will somehow have his hauler at risk. Obviously he will just use a different tactic to mitigate risk, the same way as it is done now with the noob ship.

See you in the next nerf thread.

Edit2: more perspective. When us nullsec duders blow up an Orca, a DST or a Freighter, we too have to hold the field long enough for our loot truck to arrive. Our truck is at considerable risk doing so- why isn't yours? Special snowflake needs special treatment? Highsec rules already are really soft on you; if you can't stand the idea of people actually shooting at your industrial, maybe EvE is not for you.

Gankers/looters have been using this little trick for sometime, and it seems to be growing in popularity because it is successful in circumventing risk vs reward crime mechanic.

Step one - Gank
Step two - Bring in a noob or a cheap frig to the wreck.
Step Three - Bring a Bustard to wreck
Step Four - Use Noobship as the sacrificial ship to move the wreck items into the Bustard. Noob ship goes suspect, but bustard stays normal. Even though it is now holding ganked illegal loot. If noob ship gets popped, repeat step four.

Step five - Fly illegal loot away safely in bustard that is not flashy yellow with no risk.


Even though everyone on grid saw it happen, there is minimal things that can be done since it is a flaw in the mechanic. Yes, the looter can be popped, then they can bring it back... However the transfer of loot is so quick that by the time the ship has transferred it and is suspect, it is too late.

How to fix it., two options I can think of to fix it.

1 - If you go suspect you can't transfer cargo into another ship (in highsec).

2 - If the loot is transferred into another ship, it goes suspect as well. (It is a crime to be the get away driver of a bank hist (even if your not the first one)).

* another option for #2

2(b) - If the loot is transferred into another ship, it goes suspect ONLY for everyone on grid with it (those that saw the transaction). If it warps away to a station, and no one station was at the gank site they would not know what happened and not see the looter as suspect.



Open to other ideas that prevent this loop hole in the mechanic, but lets stay on topic.

Thanks!
Kip

D.