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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2007.03.09 15:31:00 -
[1]
Hi All,
It seems to me that EVE is a game of rock, paper and scissors. In a 1vs1 situation the better fitting will always win - each ship is capable of delivering a certain amount of DPS - each ship can absorb a certain amount of DPS. Leaving out lag - the better fitting will win any given encounter. There are an immense number of possible fittings - especially when rigs, implants and skill selection are factored in - but in the end it still comes down to the simple question of "Are you taking more damage than you are delivering?" and "Can you escape if that is the case?". There are no "environmental" factors that can reduce/mitigate/change the balance of power between two ships or even two fleets - the only exception I can think of are warp bubbles that can be placed to tactically limit movement in certain regions of space.
So here is a suggestion to consider - likely made many times - but anyway - would it be worthwhile introducing environmental factors that would affect weapon and ships system performance on a local basis? Some ideas would include structures (asteroids etc) that would occlude weapon fire, perhaps gas clouds or other phenomena that would provide bonuses or detriments to particular weapon systems (e.g. a gas cloud that would enhance laser weapon damage or another cloud type that would reduce missile speed or explosion radius). These phenomena could be limited in both space and time or could apply to an entire solar system. This would make choosing where to fight as well as where to fly during combat both tactical decisions - you would try to choose environmental conditions beneficial to yourself and detrimental to your opponent. As it stands now, individuals or groups of ships simply specify targets and blow them up - any real tactics are in terms of coordinated fire - there is very little to be gained by tactical fleet maneuvers - or choice in finding the best spot to fight a battle. Environmental factors could add significantly to the tactical considerations in EVE when engaging and might allow for a better pilot or fleet commander in a weaker ship/position to take advantage of the local "terrain".
I suspect the reason this would be difficult would be server side load. The calculations involved in determining line of sight might well be prohibitive - similarly, spatially limited effects might also be prohibitive - I don't know. However, if such a system could be implemented would it be worth doing?
Just some thoughts ...
Traska
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2007.03.09 15:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Splagada on 09/03/2007 15:31:29 Edited by: Splagada on 09/03/2007 15:31:03 ARGH !
Eve is also a game of paragraphs !
good points but apart from nano-ships lately , i find it balanced
and to the point : YES id love to see roids block the shoots
dodgefighting in belts, weeee ------
Relaxed corp recruiting |
Herculite
Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.03.09 15:46:00 -
[3]
EvE should have things like firing arcs, long range type torpedoes that you can intercept, fighter bombing that doesn't involve a carrier in a pos and nothing more than expensive drones, but the problem is the client/servers can't handle what it already does.
The lack of the 'skill' element becomes more and more of a turn off for me, and if a mmo like eve ever comes along that also adds more skill I'll try it for sure (Jumpgate came close, but was flawed in other areas).
I'm hoping that somewhere they are able to increase the skill factor in EvE though.
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Nova Fox
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Posted - 2007.03.09 15:48:00 -
[4]
Well there are those who like eve the way it is and there are those who dont like the 'by chance' thing, sure tatical environments would be nice? what about regional bonuses and penalties would that help a bit? *==================* Fight the bunnies! ...|\_/|.......(\_|) |\<^-^>=@(x-0) \|.uwu........(....) |
Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.03.09 15:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Traska Gannel Hi All,
It seems to me that EVE is a game of rock, paper and scissors. In a 1vs1 situation the better fitting will always win - each ship is capable of delivering a certain amount of DPS - each ship can absorb a certain amount of DPS. Leaving out lag - the better fitting will win any given encounter. There are an immense number of possible fittings - especially when rigs, implants and skill selection are factored in - but in the end it still comes down to the simple question of "Are you taking more damage than you are delivering?" and "Can you escape if that is the case?".
You haven't PvPed much have you?
There is a HUGE amount of tactical knowhow that comes from the pilot behind the keyboard. All other things being equal I guarantee you I know people who will wtfpwn you if you went 1v1 with them.
Your mistake is that there is no "better" fitting. Ok, sure there are just plain stupid setups out there but there are often several different and perfectly acceptable fittings for most ships. Are you going for gank or tank? Are you going for long, medium or short range? Are you using missiles, guns or drones (or some combination)? What damage types are you dishing out? What damage types is your opponent best tanked for?
Pilot skill comes in being able to assess your opponent and play to your strengths and their weaknesses. That guy coming at you in a Blasterthron? Better not let him get too close. That guy orbiting you in his ceptor so fast you can't hit him? Get a web on him or fly through an asteroid field or station to bollox him up or hope he is on orbit and try to draw him in with a quick run one way and then a direction change to pull him close enough for that web. The possibilities are numerous.
There have been many an example in EVE where an outnumbered force overcame a (on paper) more powerful foe through the good use of tactics.
People have been wanting things like stations and asteroids to occlud weapons fire since as long as I can remember. I am guessing it is too much for the client and/or server to deal with in an MMO so as never happened. Would be nice though.
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heheheh
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:10:00 -
[6]
erm sorry buti got this far.
Quote: In a 1vs1 situation the better fitting will always win
does the rest of it make any sense ?
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DarkElf
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:13:00 -
[7]
seriously you need some lessons on pvp. Eve is very little about how expensive your fittings are etc.
there are a great many skills you can learn to take on different oponnents. speed usage, dictating range, use of different EWAR modules etc.
The opinion you have expressed is that of a fairly inexperienced pilot tbh.
DE
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:15:00 -
[8]
What humpalot said...
Add to that the fact that "eve tactics" do not start and stop at you, being 15km from your opponent, and shooting him.
They start when you fit your ship, when your gang moves around, when you choose a fight, or when you get in a trap and get killed.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Humpalot
Originally by: Traska Gannel stuff
other stuff
I must agree with the latter poster here. Even in my limited experience of PvP I have seen the types of fights the OP says are not in the game. In fact most of my losses have been due to being outmateuvered rather than outgunned, though I was usually outgunned too, it takes tactics to get someone (who is at least somewhat competent) into a position where you can bring your weapons to bear. -
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:40:00 -
[10]
Eve is a game of rock paper sissors.
Its just that the rocks can nano bump though the paper, tearing it, and sometimes enough sissors can slowly grind away a rock. --
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.09 16:40:00 -
[11]
Eve is a game of rock paper sissors.
Its just that the rocks can nano bump though the paper, tearing it, and sometimes enough sissors can slowly grind away a rock. --
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Asestorian
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.03.09 17:02:00 -
[12]
Fleet fights and other large scale military ops in the game are often far more tactical than you may realise.
1v1 situations don't count really, they are so rare, in the cases they do happen it's normally a pirate finding a victim in a belt or something.
---
---
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.03.09 17:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Asestorian Fleet fights and other large scale military ops in the game are often far more tactical than you may realise.
1v1 situations don't count really, they are so rare, in the cases they do happen it's normally a pirate finding a victim in a belt or something.
Finding and catching said victim may require skill in itself. -
If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine. |
Vasiliyan
PAX Interstellar Services Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.09 17:44:00 -
[14]
There's lots of tactics involved in Eve, mostly before any actual firing happens. 1v1 is quite rare.
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.03.09 17:45:00 -
[15]
Most of the interesting tactics in eve involve positioning. But CCP is determined to make everybody move slow, so we'll be back to f1-f8 soon.
shamis
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Illyria Ambri
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.09 17:46:00 -
[16]
It would be awsome to have astroids and stations be LOS dependent...
You shoot a missle at an osprey but he ducks behind a roid and the missle hits the rock instead. Would make the belts more logical for ratting as you gotta follow them in and maintain LOS to shoot them.
Would also make station and gate ghanking more tactical as your target could manage to slip behind a gate or structure causing your missle to hit it.. resulting in a concording.
Interesting it would be...
------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Happiness is a warm railgun, Love is a stocked missle launcher. Sexual extacy is watching that NME Battleship go boom.
"Will i |
Marquis Dean
The Last Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.03.09 18:03:00 -
[17]
Last time I checked 25 sheets of paper will still, er, wrap to death a pair of scissors. 90% of PvP encounters are1 or 2 vs 20+ and until that changes, all of this is academic. ---
Originally by: Foopadoo Hell hath no fury like an internet nerd scorned.
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Nero Scuro
Caldari Jejaikaro Corporation
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Posted - 2007.03.09 18:23:00 -
[18]
They should add line of sight firing. Would break up the blob (can't fire if your buddies are in the way) and add another tactical layer to fights.
Adding absolutely anything to the game will case lag. That's not a reason not to do it. ___
Nice one CCP |
Rod Blaine
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.03.09 18:25:00 -
[19]
Eve is not about 1v1.
As soon as you include specialised ships (which are used as much as general ones these days), and if you start looking at group encounters, Eve pvp is full of tactics.
[center] Old blog |
Athren Soulsteal
Gallente Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
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Posted - 2007.03.09 18:39:00 -
[20]
Humpalot
ôYou haven't PvPed much have you?
There is a HUGE amount of tactical knowhow that comes from the pilot behind the keyboard. All other things being equal I guarantee you I know people who will wtfpwn you if you went 1v1 with them.
Your mistake is that there is no "better" fitting. Ok, sure there are just plain stupid setups out there but there are often several differentà
Stuffàö
DarkElf Caldari Veto ôseriously you need some lessons on pvp. Eve is very little about how expensive your fittings are etc.
there are a great many skills you can learn to take on different oponnents. speed usage, dictating range, use of different EWAR modules etc.
The opinion you have expressed is that of a fairly inexperienced pilot tbh.
DEö
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
ôAdd to that the fact that "eve tactics" do not start and stop at you, being 15km from your opponent, and shooting him.
They start when you fit your ship, when your gang moves around, when you choose a fight, or when you get in a trap and get killed.ö
============================================ /end quotes
Ok, what you have all described is the Exactly Rock Paper Scissors. Currently EVE battles (non fleet/blobs) are won or lost in the fitting bay, thus the OPÆs statement.
We have been asking for LOS and clipping since 03, IE: missiles and guns hit first object in line of fire not magically go through mates, roids, and other objects. Positioning should be important, if you can get stuck on a roid/object your fire should also.
Quote: Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.
I wish I could fit all the Quote |
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prsr
Gallente JuBa Corp Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.03.09 19:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Traska Gannel there is very little to be gained by tactical fleet maneuvers
You must be talking about another game since the opposite is true in EVE.
Also, the only other enviromental "modifier" needed in this game is the mobile web generator that slows everything within 20km of it down by 90%.
-- .sig apathy ftw |
DarkElf
Caldari Veto.
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Posted - 2007.03.09 19:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Athren Soulsteal Humpalot
ôYou haven't PvPed much have you?
There is a HUGE amount of tactical knowhow that comes from the pilot behind the keyboard. All other things being equal I guarantee you I know people who will wtfpwn you if you went 1v1 with them.
Your mistake is that there is no "better" fitting. Ok, sure there are just plain stupid setups out there but there are often several differentà
Stuffàö
DarkElf Caldari Veto ôseriously you need some lessons on pvp. Eve is very little about how expensive your fittings are etc.
there are a great many skills you can learn to take on different oponnents. speed usage, dictating range, use of different EWAR modules etc.
The opinion you have expressed is that of a fairly inexperienced pilot tbh.
DEö
Chewan Mesa Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
ôAdd to that the fact that "eve tactics" do not start and stop at you, being 15km from your opponent, and shooting him.
They start when you fit your ship, when your gang moves around, when you choose a fight, or when you get in a trap and get killed.ö
============================================ /end quotes
Ok, what you have all described is the Exactly Rock Paper Scissors. Currently EVE battles (non fleet/blobs) are won or lost in the fitting bay, thus the OPÆs statement.
We have been asking for LOS and clipping since 03, IE: missiles and guns hit first object in line of fire not magically go through mates, roids, and other objects. Positioning should be important, if you can get stuck on a roid/object your fire should also.
wtf? did you even read what u quoted?
it's about how you use them. u can have a super fast ship but if u don't orbit correctly or allow urself to get webbed.
dictating range isn't just about fitting a web or clicking orbit it's about piloting skill.
and you were suggesting it's about how much isk you've got in modules. it's not. it's about the right combination of modules on the right ship, with the right skills and used correctly to maintain tank and cap and damage.
seriously mate don't mean to be patronising but u need to get into some proper pvp.
DE
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Chewan Mesa
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.03.09 19:18:00 -
[23]
Athren, do yourself and mainly us a favor, and quote things properly please.
Secondly, rock paper scissors is purely random and total luck, how I fit my ship, where I engage someone, how I micromanage my setup, range and speed during a fight however is not in the slightest random or involves luck.
Ofc flying through 0.0 and coming across a 20 man gang with dictors catching you is bad luck, but its not what eve pvp is about.
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Brian Kith
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Posted - 2007.03.09 20:05:00 -
[24]
Regardless of the other opinions and communications in this thread, the idea of true LoS combat is very enticing. It would most certainly add a tactical element to ALL current forms of Eve combat.
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Tubiger
Survey Division Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.09 21:35:00 -
[25]
As far as environmental factors in combat go, I think it would be very cool to have a handful of "solar systems" that are completely contained within a very thick nebula or something similar, so much that you can't see anything much beyond your own ship, like a heavy fog (maybe add some cool lighting flashes and swirling just to make it interesting). It would require you to fly and fight by "instruments" only - theoretically, this wouldn't have a huge effect on tactics, but it would certainly be a very different sort of feeling.
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AvatarADV
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Posted - 2007.03.09 23:54:00 -
[26]
The limiting factor is lag.
As it is, lag plays practically no role in EVE combat. Because most everything moves pretty slowly, you have a pretty long window to make your tactical decisions - a second of lag probably wouldn't have saved you in most situations. There's no twitch element AT ALL.
So "duck and cover" tactics won't work, because they're highly lag-vulnerable. "OMG I got killed because the ship didn't turn around fast enough!" Forget that sort of gameplay, I'll go play Quake if I want to play Quake.
As for fitting, you have a wide variety of choices. Most of the unique, nifty things you can do besides "mount big guns and pew pew" have counters which will almost totally close you down. If you're flying an ECM-heavy setup, and you run into an ECCM-heavy setup, you're in trouble. If you're flying a nanoBS and someone snags you with heavy webber drones, you're in trouble. If you're Amarr and the other guy has NOS, you're in trouble. And so on...
The challenge becomes having a setup that's acceptably "general purpose" enough to handle run-of-the-mill encounters, while not getting totally smashed in by someone up to something different. Lots of variety in there. Heck, you can even do it pretty cheaply - a lot of the weirder electronic modules aren't widely used and are thus available for practically free.
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Soporo
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.03.10 01:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Soporo on 10/03/2007 01:17:02
Quote: As it is, lag plays practically no role in EVE combat. Because most everything moves pretty slowly, you have a pretty long window to make your tactical decisions - a second of lag probably wouldn't have saved you in most situations. There's no twitch element AT ALL.
I would say... up to a point. What 300 and up? 500? THEN pvp is ALL about the lag,and the Node, and the Petitions...
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RaWBLooD
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Posted - 2007.03.10 03:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: RaWBLooD on 10/03/2007 03:11:21 whatever gets done, less chance based hits are needed, simply more ways of avoiding missiles or temporary shield boosts that can block laser fire.
chance can be used to the extent that there is a 1/5 chance of striking 1.5 more damage, but thats about it.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2007.03.10 03:30:00 -
[29]
Real strategy can't be added to ship to ship combat games untill you add different armor zones on the sides of the ship and firing arcs on the weapons. That adds a huge tactical element because fighting is no longer just about your relative position but also your orientation.
For example if a ship has armor for the left, the right the front and the back and it sustains damage to one side of the ship then it can extend its lifespan significantly by turning around its heading in the middle of a fight and doubling back on its original course, thereby exposing another side.
Other then that I think that mainly the whole warping game has to be changed around to make Eve more tactical. There have to be more ways to get close on your own steam then just warping right on top of the enemy, and there have to be better ways to stay away then warping off at the first sign of trouble. The warping game is just killing all the conventional strategy in Eve, the game always boils down to who can concoct the perfect warp-ins and nothing else.
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