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Countess NotFarOut2
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Posted - 2007.03.13 12:56:00 -
[31]
What happened to using strategy, tactics and diplomacy to tackle impossible odds? That you cannot think of a way to oppose Titans does not mean there is no such way...
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 12:58:00 -
[32]
And someone hinting there is a way does not mean there actually exists one.
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Countess NotFarOut2
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Posted - 2007.03.13 14:11:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Countess NotFarOut2 on 13/03/2007 14:07:57
???
What I mean is: think up something how you CAN counter it?
The use of brain instead of brawn? We girls know all about that, don't we? Well, don't we?!?
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Krulla
Minmatar
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 14:39:00 -
[34]
 Originally by: Countess NotFarOut2
Edited by: Countess NotFarOut2 on 13/03/2007 14:07:57
???
What I mean is: think up something how you CAN counter it?
The use of brain instead of brawn? We girls know all about that, don't we? Well, don't we?!?
In other words, kill them when they log out?
Yeah, gg.
I've got nothing against titan superweapons pwning everything in the face without remorse, but they need to be killable. Atm there is no way to kill a logged in titan, ever, and the only way to kill a logged out titan is pilot mistake.
The very fact that no in-game ways exist to kill those things screams broken, to me. And, before you post "use your brain" again, someone prove me wrong by killing a actual logged in titan.
Make DDs unable to fire through cynos, and make firing a DD make you unable to warp or jump for 5 or 10 minutes - So if your enemy mananges to take out your support fleet, and enough damage to kill you in that timeframe, they win. Highly unlikely, but still, possible.
Those things should be hard as **** to kill, but not impossible.
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Sigs are for noobs. |
pastafarianist
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Posted - 2007.03.13 15:00:00 -
[35]
I support the op in the suggestion to make them actual in-combat juggernauts instead of 'jump-in, doomsday, jump-out'. Leave them very powerful, but in other areas...
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Celeste Coeval
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Posted - 2007.03.13 15:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Poolpy
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Dreadnoughts can quite easily tank even 5 superweapon blasts. Heck, they can probably tank 20.
Welcome to capital ship online, where you are worthless in 0.0 if you don't have capital ship skills (add 1 year to wait) and few billion of isk.
Oh wait.
I wasn't aware that the haulers supplying 0.0 were being guarded by titans.
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 16:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
I wasn't aware that the haulers supplying 0.0 were being guarded by titans.
Two words:
Carrier
Jump drive
Ah, damn, those were three...
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Celeste Coeval
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Posted - 2007.03.13 16:29:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 13/03/2007 16:26:20
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 13/03/2007 16:25:41
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
I wasn't aware that the haulers supplying 0.0 were being guarded by titans.
Two words:
Carrier
Jump drive
Ah, damn, those were three...
And how do those items get to the carrier? I've seen plenty of freighters/industrials in 0.0 and low sec. Don't see many ice miners though and empire is full of ice macro's...who buys all that ice oh my!
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
Member of the [UTSFAH] corp.
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Esurnir
Amarr
Bears Inc
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.13 16:46:00 -
[39]
Simple, you get a hauler full of goodies, an itteron mk v local hull fitted with cargo rigs for example. Put it into the carrier hull (the carrier can have non cargo empty ship in his hull, while the ship maintenance array can't), then you make the carrier jump back to your home system in 0.0
----
Quote:
Thou shall pew pew.
Book of Revelation 12, 51 |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 17:07:00 -
[40]
Jepp, one thanatos can easily ferry 40k m¦ using one correctly fitted itty5 and mackinaw. Only a fraction of what a freighter can, of cource, but also in a fraction of the time & effort. And utterly impossible to prevent unless you choose to camp every single lowsec system in eve.
"Siegeing" an alliance does not work due to these "air drops".
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Mog Carns
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.03.13 17:15:00 -
[41]
A> one player, logged in, has already come close to creating a situation where it was possible to lose a Titan. It was taking slightly more damage than it could tank, its armor was going down, and it was too low on power to jump away.
It was saved by a Mothership who came and gave it a quick boost to power. They then jumped clear.
B> Titans DO NOT have insurance. Repeat after me, a hundred thousand times, so you will not ask a hundred thousand times in the next titan kill thread, "TITANS DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE". They cannot have insurance because they cannot dock. When killed, they have a base 20% payout, which may or may not cover the costs of the installed modules.
C> A skilled battleship pilot flying in opposition to 100 players who fly T1 frigates with T1 fittings because those are the skills they possess, the Battleship will likely win the contest. This would be deemed ok because the battleship costs more than the frigates. The analogy of the Titan killing battleships fails only because you project a false level of skill points onto the frigate's pilots. The Skill Points increase the low level of performance of the frigate by a great ammount, increasing the effective number of frigates. The Battleship pilots have no above and beyond level of skill points to raise them to the same extrodinary level of effectiveness. Instead, a BS pilot without them is considered subpar.
D> Stop being so spoiled. The proliferation of warp scramblers have left you with the idea that in any fight, the loser has to lose his ship. Sometimes, the loser just gets away. Deal with it.
Rest assured, eventually, someone much smarter and much more skilled than you will figure out a high probability tactic of killing Titans. Probably about the time you get yours. Then you can whine how underpowered and vunerable they are.
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Hllaxiu
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.03.13 17:59:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Hllaxiu on 13/03/2007 17:57:11
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Originally by: Poolpy
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Dreadnoughts can quite easily tank even 5 superweapon blasts. Heck, they can probably tank 20.
Welcome to capital ship online, where you are worthless in 0.0 if you don't have capital ship skills (add 1 year to wait) and few billion of isk.
Oh wait.
I wasn't aware that the haulers supplying 0.0 were being guarded by titans.
Jump portal + freighters = economic win.
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Veneth
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Posted - 2007.03.13 18:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Celeste Coeval
Originally by: Poolpy
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Dreadnoughts can quite easily tank even 5 superweapon blasts. Heck, they can probably tank 20.
Welcome to capital ship online, where you are worthless in 0.0 if you don't have capital ship skills (add 1 year to wait) and few billion of isk.
Oh wait.
I wasn't aware that the haulers supplying 0.0 were being guarded by titans.
ok ok you got us. if your not in a cap ship or a hauler your worthless.. So glad you reminded me that at 40m sp I can fly my i5 and win the war with it :)
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Veneth
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Posted - 2007.03.13 18:29:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mog Carns
C> A skilled battleship pilot flying in opposition to 100 players who fly T1 frigates with T1 fittings because those are the skills they possess, the Battleship will likely win the contest. This would be deemed ok because the battleship costs more than the frigates. The analogy of the Titan killing battleships fails only because you project a false level of skill points onto the frigate's pilots. The Skill Points increase the low level of performance of the frigate by a great ammount, increasing the effective number of frigates. The Battleship pilots have no above and beyond level of skill points to raise them to the same extrodinary level of effectiveness. Instead, a BS pilot without them is considered subpar.
maybe you should stop and relieze that simply because your in a titan doesn't mean you have more skillpoints than a lot of the people in this game.. some of us simply can not own a titan. If said Battleship pilot and said frigate pilots are equally skilled the battleship doesn't even stand a chance. The same is not true for the titan
and actually I'd still put money on the ability for some 100 noob alts in tier 3 frigs to take down a skilled BS pilot actually trying to fight them, it's to many targets and to much damage
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 18:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Mog Carns
A> one player, logged in, has already come close to creating a situation where it was possible to lose a Titan. It was taking slightly more damage than it could tank, its armor was going down, and it was too low on power to jump away.
It was saved by a Mothership who came and gave it a quick boost to power. They then jumped clear.
And if you go afk for 2 hours outside a POS it can be killed too. Nothing is "unkillable", stupidity can kill anything.
However, "hoping the mothership/titan pilot is making stupid errors" is not really something you can build a tactic on.
Quote:
B> Titans DO NOT have insurance. Repeat after me, a hundred thousand times, so you will not ask a hundred thousand times in the next titan kill thread, "TITANS DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE". They cannot have insurance because they cannot dock. When killed, they have a base 20% payout, which may or may not cover the costs of the installed modules.
40% base payout actually. And how is that not an insurance? It's no platinum 100% insurance, but it is still an insurance.
Battleships do not really get more out their insurance + modules either. A sniper fitted mega costs together about 200 mil. Platinum payout is 105m. Insurance cost 31.5m. So effeciently the *platinum* insurance payout only covers around 37% of the ships total worth.
Even with the best faction modules the waste majority of a titans worth is in the ship itself. Their base insurance payout pays pretty much the same percentage of the ship + module cost as platinum insurance does for a sniper fitted BS.
Quote:
C>A skilled battleship pilot flying in opposition to 100 players who fly T1 frigates with T1 fittings because those are the skills they possess, the Battleship will likely win the contest.
Actually, no it wouldn't. Even with a low estimate of 100 dps per frig the swarm would have 10.000 dps. It wouldn't stand a chance.
Quote:
The analogy of the Titan killing battleships fails only because you project a false level of skill points onto the frigate's pilots. The Skill Points increase the low level of performance of the frigate by a great ammount, increasing the effective number of frigates. The Battleship pilots have no above and beyond level of skill points to raise them to the same extrodinary level of effectiveness. Instead, a BS pilot without them is considered subpar.
It's the same principle with frigates vs a battleship as with battleships vs a titan.
Quote:
D> Stop being so spoiled. The proliferation of warp scramblers have left you with the idea that in any fight, the loser has to lose his ship. Sometimes, the loser just gets away. Deal with it.
Thats no argument, but a badly veiled "stop whining" flame.
Also, are you effeciently saying here that titans are not killable normally? You are contradicting yourself with your first comment here.
Quote:
Rest assured, eventually, someone much smarter and much more skilled than you will figure out a high probability tactic of killing Titans. Probably about the time you get yours. Then you can whine how underpowered and vunerable they are.
Saying "there is a way" does not mean that one exists. This is just meaningless semantics.
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Mog Carns
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.03.13 19:09:00 -
[46]
Two large smart bombs, two large NOS, 4 small guns or missiles and a decent sustainable tanking setup will kill any number of sub-1m SP players in any frigate you want to provide them.
Make it equal. A Titan is fitted to blow up Battleships. In your example, you are putting a BS fitted to fight other BSs in PvP up against the 100 frigates. This is the only line of thinking that provides for your analysis.
One fit for PvE could likely do the job and win. One fit as above could handle any number and win. To do any damage, they have to be in range of the smart bombs. Those that do not pop in one blast die the second. Do you believe they have enough DPS to pop a BS in 10 seconds? The few with any range are easy enough to pick off with the small weapons.
Now, a perfect fit to go against it, because you know the exact loadout, would be to have EVERYONE in the 100 man frig gang fit Sensor Damps and long range weapons with long range ammo, but that really shorts the dps. It would be interesting to see if 100 so setup frigs could even break the tank of a BS, much less do so long enough to pop it before running out of ammo. Remember, the total cost of each frig is 1m or less, so you are looking at base Small laser Beam Is and Railgun Is... not prototypes. You would be lucky to see a scout or two.
Now, for the on topic address, I do not assume the Titan pilot has more Skill Points than all or even one of the BS pilots. I was merely commenting in your 100 frig example that while the frigs abilities are a constant, the player's skill points provide a multiplier of the ship's expected effectiveness, giving it additional lethality. The BS pilots, on the other hand, are expected to have such skills. As such, they have no multiplier. A pilot without such skills would be the only anomoly, and have a negative action on the expected level of force.
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Mog Carns
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.03.13 19:16:00 -
[47]
100 dps in a sub one million isk total cost frigate, with a sub one million skill point character... HOW?
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Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.13 19:32:00 -
[48]
well it's all personal opinion.
In my personal opinion I said long before capitol ships came out that they would ruin the game.
In my opinion they have.
But then again thats my opinion.
Why? Well I wont spend a page of why but in my opinion it has mainly due to cost/power.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.13 19:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Mog Carns
Two large smart bombs, two large NOS, 4 small guns or missiles and a decent sustainable tanking setup will kill any number of sub-1m SP players in any frigate you want to provide them.
Make it equal. A Titan is fitted to blow up Battleships. In your example, you are putting a BS fitted to fight other BSs in PvP up against the 100 frigates. This is the only line of thinking that provides for your analysis.
One fit for PvE could likely do the job and win. One fit as above could handle any number and win. To do any damage, they have to be in range of the smart bombs. Those that do not pop in one blast die the second. Do you believe they have enough DPS to pop a BS in 10 seconds? The few with any range are easy enough to pick off with the small weapons.
Now, a perfect fit to go against it, because you know the exact loadout, would be to have EVERYONE in the 100 man frig gang fit Sensor Damps and long range weapons with long range ammo, but that really shorts the dps. It would be interesting to see if 100 so setup frigs could even break the tank of a BS, much less do so long enough to pop it before running out of ammo. Remember, the total cost of each frig is 1m or less, so you are looking at base Small laser Beam Is and Railgun Is... not prototypes. You would be lucky to see a scout or two.
Now, for the on topic address, I do not assume the Titan pilot has more Skill Points than all or even one of the BS pilots. I was merely commenting in your 100 frig example that while the frigs abilities are a constant, the player's skill points provide a multiplier of the ship's expected effectiveness, giving it additional lethality. The BS pilots, on the other hand, are expected to have such skills. As such, they have no multiplier. A pilot without such skills would be the only anomoly, and have a negative action on the expected level of force.
Apparently you never fought goons when they first entered the pvp world (and the game) in the syndicate region.
Apparently you have never really fought 100 t1 sub 1mil sp players and are just pulling crap from your hat..
I'm not a goon lover or hater not what this is about but yah sorry less that 100 can take down a bs without issue. And trust me it hurts. Also not saying you not gonna take out a crap load of them in the process but yah they can take ya down.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
Cutie Chaser
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Posted - 2007.03.13 19:44:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 13/03/2007 19:41:40
Originally by: Mog Carns
Two large smart bombs, two large NOS, 4 small guns or missiles and a decent sustainable tanking setup will kill any number of sub-1m SP players in any frigate you want to provide them.
I'll provide them with rifters with 280mm arties fitted, optimal range 10km, falloff 8km with no skills taken into consideration. IE your BS would be a wreck in short order since your only defense would be 4 small guns and 2 NOS.
Hell for that matter kestrels with stand missiles reach farther then your smarties... wtf are you thinking?
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Mog Carns
United Confederation of Corporations
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Posted - 2007.03.13 20:50:00 -
[51]
I am thinking if you tell 100 people to make an alt and the 100 of them are goign to fight a battleship, nothing else, 60 of them will mount rockets, blasters or autocannons.
I am thinking that the ~250 mps frigates are not fast enough to dictate range 100% of the time. They will be lucky if the BS is not faster than they are.
I am thinking that you have to do ~1000 raw DPS sustained for over two minutes to take down a single rep armor tanked BS AFTER the shield is nuetralized. Make it three, three and a half if they put a Damage control on it. Your howizers are doing about 3 dps each, raw. You get, two, maybe three guns and a missile? You get every single player so fitted, keep them out of range, and the BS unable to fire... you might take its armor down for the 5 cycles you can maintain shooting. But then you spend a cycle reloading, lose a cycle on the tank's repair, and lose most, if not more than, of the ground you made. You see, if you go minmatar to get the good nav skills, you lose most of the gunnery and its bonuses. This extends the time out to a factor where native shield regen on an armor tanked vessel plays even a small part. I still say you run out of ammo before it pops, if you keep all 100 frigs alive. If he pops 10 frigs, you cannot break the tank.
No, I did not fight the goon "back then". I can assume they fought and brought down battleships that were fitted to fight battleships, with large guns. I can assume the goons, over time, trained their skills and had more than 1m sp. This is not in the context of the discussion.
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Standard Deviation
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Posted - 2007.03.13 21:13:00 -
[52]
It seems pretty clear that at least the remote doomsday should go.
Why not make them have to stay in place after firing the doomsday.
They do it for Dreads, and it not a huge problem.
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Harry Paratesteas
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.03.13 21:42:00 -
[53]
There is another game called Chess, you all remember that? Well if you can get a pawn across the field then it becomes whatever piece you want & you can do it several times. Do you nerf that? No.
Harry Paratesteas
War Correspondent
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.13 22:01:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Aramendel on 13/03/2007 22:08:20
Originally by: Mog Carns
I am thinking if you tell 100 people to make an alt and the 100 of them are goign to fight a battleship, nothing else, 60 of them will mount rockets, blasters or autocannons.
If they have obsolutely no clue about frigate combat, maybe. It will be an error they make only once, though.
Quote:
I am thinking that the ~250 mps frigates are not fast enough to dictate range 100% of the time. They will be lucky if the BS is not faster than they are.
And the reason they are unable to fit an AB is?
Quote:
I am thinking that you have to do ~1000 raw DPS sustained for over two minutes to take down a single rep armor tanked BS AFTER the shield is nuetralized.
Maybe you should then start actually testing instead. Because your "thinking" seems to be rather crappy.
Lets take a dominix with an 1600mm plate. 13k armor with max skills. 8300 hull. A 2 EN2 + DC tank which gives it 50% to all resistance + 60% hull resistance. Average armor resistance is 67.5%.
A lar2 which repairs 71 armor/sec with max skills. After the resistances it effeciently cancels out 219 dps.
This makes 51 seconds for the armor and 27 seconds for the hull to pop.
Quote:
Your howizers are doing about 3 dps each, raw.
6.3 dps with EMP without any skills or other modules. 5k optimal and 9k falloff without skills. 9.1 dps with frig and small pro lvl 4. 11.25 with gunenry 4 and rapid fire 3. 14.77 with 2 t1 damage mods. Times 3 for 3 guns thats 44 dps.
Times 100 thats 4400s dps. If we take this vs said maxxed skilled fully t2 equipped domi:
2.7 seconds for the shield
9.5 seconds for the armor
4.9 seconds for the hull
After about 20 out of the 100 rifters will have made their 3rd shot it will be dead.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2007.03.13 22:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Harry Paratesteas
There is another game called Chess, you all remember that? Well if you can get a pawn across the field then it becomes whatever piece you want & you can do it several times. Do you nerf that? No.
How many times have you played chess where you start with 16 pawns and the other side starts with 16 pawns and 8 queens?
Try getting a pawn across the board then.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Sphynix
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Posted - 2007.03.13 22:14:00 -
[56]
Just make the DDD activation a grid-wide smartbomb, that hits everything (even the titan). No cyno field needed, so you also can't activate it remotely.
The backlash from the energy release causes the titan to "shutdown" for 2 minutes to save its electronics - so it can't move, warp, jump, shoot, rep, etc - just passive tank or be remote repped.
It also takes 50% cap to fire the weapon.
So if you can see the titan you can be fried by it.
To fire, the titan needs to evacuate its support (appart from caps) - which gives you warning, kind of. Nothing to stop the fleet returning imeadiatly.
If your fleet warps away and imeadiatly returns, you have a chance to kill the titan or at least severly damage it - but the support fleet is also there to defend it.
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Trader Wong
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Posted - 2007.03.13 23:08:00 -
[57]
You do realize that a fleet of 100 Kestrels with standard launchers deals nearly as much damage as a Titan's DD per volley of missiles?
Oddly enough the Kestrels and the DD weapon itself have about the same cost, too.
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Jump Nought
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Posted - 2007.03.13 23:14:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Trader Wong
You do realize that a fleet of 100 Kestrels with standard launchers deals nearly as much damage as a Titan's DD per volley of missiles?
Oddly enough the Kestrels and the DD weapon itself have about the same cost, too.
Ya, but i think the standing issue is that the DD doesn't just hit one target and can be fired from another system.
The other way to word it would be something like:
If you let 100 kestrals fire at your fleet for 1 hour it would have about the same overall effect as a single DD.
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Freighter Pilot
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Posted - 2007.03.13 23:17:00 -
[59]
People really seem to think the titan is way too overpowered. They don't understand the cost, and don't do much front line fighting.
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Allen Deckard
Gallente
WTB Supplies
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Posted - 2007.03.14 01:20:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Freighter Pilot
People really seem to think the titan is way too overpowered. They don't understand the cost, and don't do much front line fighting.
Yes I've done some front line fighting. Or should say front line lagging followed by insta death.
Point that many are making is the titan kills off entire field of support ships without risk to self.
Second point is that no ship no matter the cost should be this powerfull. Sorry it just dont fly.
Sorry to say but the game was more fun before capitol ships.
Kentucky where the goats roam and the rednecks run free |
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