|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.18 19:18:00 -
[1]
Why won't this thread die?
Go read the material CCP has released. Ambulation is a completely pointless waste of time. It will not be used. I hope it never sees the light of day.
1. Everything you do now will take _longer_ in ambulation. 2. You will still be able to do every thing outside ambulation. 3. There will be nothing new in ambulation except things only usable in ambulation like clothing.
People will try it once or twice and then forget about it because it offers nothing. It will be a ghost town. This is basic game theory. I don't know why they're wasting time on it.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 13:51:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Talisorn
A lot of people want this. A lot of people will enjoy this. The game is not just about YOU.
A lot of people don't want this. A lot of people will not enjoy this. The game is not about YOU
Quote: If CCP want to make more cash and have an even bigger, more popular game, I hope the EXTEND the concept to within player's own ships, allow people to be invited onto ships and even allow them to ferry players between space stations (like a taxi service). Even better, allow players to view the outside from the inside through windows.
Completely and utterly useless. Why do you want to nerf the view of space? Currently you can undock and look at space. It's huge. You can scroll the little mouse wheel and not even see your ship. All you can see is space.
Now you're claiming that limiting this view is a good thing? Take a piece of paper. Cut a hole in it. Tape it to your monitor. Look you have a window. See how nicely your viewing angle is reduced.
You already can see space why are you advocating a reduction in seeing space as an enhancement?
Quote: This will attract a whole lot of people who just don't get off on viewing their character as a ship. Personally, I love the idea of playing a human character instead.
No it won't. You can play as a ship. Or you can sit in a station and do nothing as a human. There's no game in ambulation. Name a single piece of socialization that you will be able to do in ambulation that is not possible currently. There's not a one. I'm sorry that your brain can't process /me waves and that you need a visual rep to figure out what words mean.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 14:05:00 -
[3]
Originally by: MotherMoon
*list snipped* YOU are not the player base and neither is HE neither am I. so please go away.
So I'm not the player base which according to you invalidates my view point. Also according to you MotherMoon is not the player base. Thus according to your post MotherMoon's view point is also completely invalid.
What the **** is the point of generating your list? If I can generate an n+1 list will you please go away?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 14:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nova Satar Will i be able to purchase 9mm pistols and Sub-machine guns for my travels in stations ???
CCP is on record saying no fighting.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 14:12:00 -
[5]
Edited by: B1FF on 23/01/2008 14:12:17
Originally by: MotherMoon
talk face to face
Already done with private convo. Even shows you a picture of the person. No new functionality.
Quote: sit down at a bar
This is identical to #1. No new functionality.
Quote: gamble at a table
Gambling is already done by groups in game.
Quote: WALK
What new functionality does this offer?
Quote: show off your ship
Seriously? There's an undock button on the lower left. When you click it allows anyone in the area to see your ship.
Quote: have corp meetings with a big map you can all look at together at the same time.
People already do this.
Quote: besides most of this is being made by the other 50 people they are hiring for a different game.
So not one single second will be spent by someone on the current team dealing with ambulation? Let those other people have a beta like anyone else. Don't add a useless feature to this game.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 15:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Doomed Predator Edited by: Doomed Predator on 23/01/2008 15:13:48 To my knowledge you train skills by downloading information using pod technology. Will you be able to train skills when outside of the pod then?
This is all from a RP point of view (I don't RP but I like that things are logical to some extent).
Now if they make the avatars holograms that would make a lot more sense. Training skills would go as normal and you could explain the walking through other people.
Just my 0.02 isk
Well if you want to get all RP. Cloning also does not work outside your pod. To leave your pod is to become mortal. Have fun with that. Hope you don't trip and ***** your head on something.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 15:40:00 -
[7]
No need for a long post. I'm not crying like a little girl.
Your answers are indicative of the failure that is ambulation. Not a single pro-ambulation person has counted a single one of my points. So far the only arguments raised have been the following.
1. Shut up. 2. I want it. 3. It won't effect you. (This is hilarious because it's one of my points against it) 4. OMG I get to dance and play dress up! PONIEZ!
It's window dressing. There are things the time could be better spent on. Time and resources are being spent on ambulation. That time and resources could be spent on other things.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 16:24:00 -
[8]
Originally by: James Swindle
You say that like CCP can't just add a new chronical explaining a new invention in which they can now clone you and your brainwaves outside of a pod. Again i must
That's exactly why you never use RP to justify a position.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 16:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Claska
No offense B1FF, but what what is your problem? can't you just accept that some people WILL like it?
No offense Claska, but what is your problem? Can't you just accept that some people WON'T like it? You're not making an argument. If it's so great then why can't you defend it instead of just saying "Shut up?"
Quote: To some people, making your avatar look nice, opening up a shop, Talking to another person in a bar like environment is important, weather it is to your or not doesn't matter matter when it comes to some one else. Its not like you have to use it. so shut up and just not use it if it concerns you so much. Any way, to some people making there character look nice is something fun and interesting to do.
No one's going to use it. It's completely flawed by design. Read what CCP has said about it. For people to socialize in ambulation there needs to be a reason to enter the station. They've already said that there will be no reason other than socialization to enter the station. People can already socialize instantly to anyone anywhere on the server. Why would I fly somewhere to talk to someone when I can just start a convo from where I am? If we happen to be in the same station why would I spent the time walking to their location to talk to them when again I can just start a convo?
Ambulation will see activity immediately after the patch and then will become a ghost town.
Quote: Also don't forget that the engine there using to power ambulation is going to power World of darkness. Ambulation is something there using to test the engine at the same time as adding new content which just happens to be a new more interesting way to socialise.
Resources are not being spent on those people? They're working for free? They're not using office space? They're not using servers or workstations? Resources are being spent on ambulation. Those resources could be spent on other things. Anything would be better.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 17:15:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Artem Plovix Edited by: Artem Plovix on 23/01/2008 16:49:27 Biff could be the biggest whiner I've seen yet on these boards.
Those that cannot defend their position instead attack their opponents.
Quote: Additionally, you apparently have absolutely no idea how game development works, do you? Do you think the entire dev team is 5 guys in a room who can only work on one thing at a time? Do you understand the concept of different teams, working on more than one project at a time, or anything along those lines? Just because they're working on ambulation doesn't mean there isn't a team working on the server code, and the "super computer", and patching things, and doing the 50 other jobs that are required to continue moving Eve forward.
I repeat. So those people working on ambulation are working for free? They're not using office space? Their not using a single resource? Those resources that they are using could not be used for anything else?
What I don't understand is this delusion that the resources going toward ambulation can only be directed toward ambulation. This is patently false.
Quote:
You look like an idiot. Shut up, and quit digging your hole deeper. Try being more open minded, and seeing the future possibilities this opens up for Eve. I don't want to run around and play "dress up" as you so ignorantly put it, but I WOULD like to be able to have a shared white space to plan attacks with corp mates, or use a gambling system that won't get you ripped off like the player run ones, or in the future walk around on planets or POS's, etc.
First off dress up is the only use of ambulation. Second a white board and gambling do not require ambulation. Rather then spend resources on ambulation spend it on useful things like a white board and gambling.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 17:52:00 -
[11]
Originally by: MotherMoon I'm sorry where in eve can I and my corp mates have a meeting with a large map that we can all point at and draw on? I was unaware that a universal whiteboard exsitied.
I'm sorry do I somewhere claim that these features already exist in EVE. Please go reread my post.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 17:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ehranavaar
so biff i take you'd also be in favour of removing graphics from the game since they are wasteful of resources that could be better used on "anything" else?
No that would be a straw man argument. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 18:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven
but one of your points was that people don't want it.
and it damn well seemed that people want it. as you stated it is one of the arguements for it. Meaning you fail.
I've not used "I don't want it" as an argument. It's not. It's a position. You can't use a position as an argument. That's why I put it on the list.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 19:21:00 -
[14]
Edited by: B1FF on 23/01/2008 19:24:14 Edited by: B1FF on 23/01/2008 19:23:56
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: MotherMoon I'm sorry where in eve can I and my corp mates have a meeting with a large map that we can all point at and draw on? I was unaware that a universal whiteboard exsitied.
I'm sorry do I somewhere claim that these features already exist in EVE. Please go reread my post.
yes you do. it was one of my things on my list. and you said it allready happens.
That is a flat out lie. Link please.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 19:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: MotherMoon I'm sorry where in eve can I and my corp mates have a meeting with a large map that we can all point at and draw on? I was unaware that a universal whiteboard exsitied.
I'm sorry do I somewhere claim that these features already exist in EVE. Please go reread my post.
yes you do. it was one of my things on my list. and you said it allready happens.
That is a flat out lie. Link please.
yes it's a lie
Quote: Quote: mothermoon:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- have corp meetings with a big map you can all look at together at the same time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you:
People already do this.
why are you so defensive! it's a single page back!
I said people already do it. I never said it was a feature in Eve. Adding it as a feature does not require ambulation.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 19:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: Mica Swanhaven
but one of your points was that people don't want it.
and it damn well seemed that people want it. as you stated it is one of the arguements for it. Meaning you fail.
I've not used "I don't want it" as an argument. It's not. It's a position. You can't use a position as an argument. That's why I put it on the list.
to quote you
Quote: A lot of people don't want this. A lot of people will not enjoy this. The game is not about YOU
I want it.
this is not my arugemnt for why ambulation is good or bad. it's my counteragurment to you saying people don't want this. PEOPLE WANT THIS.
now weither or not it's a good or bad thing is different.
do you see why people are getting ****ed with you yet? it's really anoning to take a stand on something loike people want it and your counteragruement is that its stupid. WILL STILL WANT IT WETHER OR NOT IT IS STUPID.
So what if you want it? That's not an argument.
Why do people want it? No one has been able to say what it will add other than a 3D chat room. If you look at what CCP has said that's all it can be. We don't need a big chat room.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 19:35:00 -
[17]
For those drooling over the map:
Originally by: Dev Blog P.S. Some of these functions may be used in the F10 map if they prove to be popular. We think it¦s also very likely that the F10 map and the tactical one may be linked to each other so that you can still use the information or the planned routes. Keep in mind that this is just the design phase and we will hammer out these details a bit later.
CCP admits that ambulation is not needed for the tactical map. If you want the map then demand the map. There is no reason we need ambulation for the map.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.23 19:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: WulfWestphal while the first point would add a nice RP aspect game to the game, your second reply fails. where in eve can i sit at a bar right now? sure you can do it with emotes, but again: with ambulation it would be more immersive and many players like immersion. those who dont dont have to use it.
you are out of arguments beside the typical claiming to speak for other ominous players, while stubbornly expressing your own opinions as arguments.
What does sitting at a bar get you that you don't have right now?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 13:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
hehe, okay i understood. but apart from all the useless doomsaying we need every opinion we get, even the negative ones. perhaps then ambulation will be something proper tested and thoughtout just to proof the "old men, waving sticks, saying: 'why cars? in _my_ youth we used to _walk_! through the snow! naked! while carrying wood! over pointy stones! stop inventing new crap and make better shoes!'" wrong. :)
Your analogy is incorrect. You're merely attacking me because you cannot defend your position. It's highly indicative that all pro ambulation people are doing this. It shows that the system has no merits.
Cars have uses over walking. Ambulation is a broken design. It is simply a way to take longer to do the exact same actions as currently. There's no reason to enter a station. Here's what no one can answer.
Why would someone travel a number of jumps to talk to someone when then can talk to them from any where? Talking is all you can do in ambulation. Thus there's no reason to ever use ambulation. It's broken by design.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 13:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Talisorn
Originally by: B1FF <snip>
Don't add a useless feature to this game.
Ok ... let me put it this way (as you won't be convinced it'll benefit you):
They're doing it. Get over it.
'nuff said.
Ok let me put it this way. I'm going to share my view. The pro-ambulation people are going to insult me while failing to address any points I raise. Get over it.
Why do you feel that pro-ambulation people can share their position but I'm not allowed to?
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 16:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
ah get over yourself. not everytime someone says something its an attack against you.
"you are out of arguments beside the typical claiming to speak for other ominous players, while stubbornly expressing your own opinions as arguments."
This is an attack. It addresses me not my arguments. It's also wrong. I've provided valid arguments that have consistently gone unadressed.
Quote: calling ambulation "broken" before its even on the horizon... well, i for one hold a judgement when it hits the testserver. :) perhaps you will like it, who knows. its a long time till it comes.
I'm going from the same info you have. It's quite obviously broken. It's impossible for me to like it because there's nothing to do. If CCP wants to give some more info then maybe I'll change my mind but as it stands there's simply nothing to do.
Quote: last point: you could at least _try_ to understand _why_ some people like the idea of "ambulation". i think most of the people here posting understood why _you_ dont like it.
I understand why they like the idea of it but based on the information given no one is going to use it except for maybe trade hub 0.1 order campers. There might also be a sub culture of cyber that develops.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 17:14:00 -
[22]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia We are going to do Ambulation because we feel a lot of people will find it enjoyable.
If you are opposed to this type of fun, then you will not have to enjoy it. We think enough people will find it enjoyable that it warrants an investment of our time and effort. If you disagree that it doesn¦t..well that¦s up to you be we are taking the ¦risk¦ of it.
We won¦t drag people kicking and screaming into Ambulation, you can just stay in your space ship and still enjoy EVE in your own way, we just want to explore other directions as well knowing full well it won¦t cater to everyone who plays now, but it might convince others to start playing and we want to welcome them too.
Maybe it will bring people but no one will use it. It seems like a lot of effort to simply put a bullet point on the side of the "box".
I'm going from data CCP is released. As it stands Ambulation will allow you to walk around and buy clothing. By walk around I mean literally you have to spend time walking to the store. CCP is on record stating there will be no instant transport and no running. CCP is also on record stating that there will be no fighting.
Why are people going to use it? There's no game. There's no design. You're creating a 3D chat tech demo. One that is more limited and more time consuming than the existing chat system.
It's broken design. If you add anything to ambulation that can't be done outside it then it's basically a huge nerf due to the time spent walking. It's pointless and frankly mean to make people have to spend time walking to the store. If you take out the walking then ambulation looses all meaning and you might as well just create a new window for the features.
The only valid feature mentioned is the map and for that to be viable it has to work outside ambulation since you have to leave the station to go fight. If you can't take the map with you then what's the point of the map?
For ambulation to be useful you will have to create a whole ambulation sub game. One that is completely separate from the existing game. Remember moving existing features to ambulation only will be viewed as a huge nerf by the population due to the added walking/loading time.
People may join for ambulation but they'll just be churn if that's the main reason they joined. Ambulation will be a ghost town shortly after launch. As it stands all it's just a time consuming way for me to shake my boobies at someone.
I'm pro-CCP. I like EvE. I want to see it continue to succeed but you're making a mistake with ambulation. I don't think it will hurt the game in the long run but it's most definitely a waste of time and resources.
If CCP can offer some more info on what ambulation is supposed to be then maybe I can see the appeal but with the info we have now it's broken. It has no hope of being used because there is no reason to use it. Quite simply why would you travel to a system, then spend time loading, then spend time walking to a location to talk to someone? Why no just open a convo window?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 17:21:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dismus This point has been raised before and you have chosen to simply let it slide by claiming that no valid "merits" have been given.
The only 2 points raised have been waving and the map.
The map has to exist outside ambulation or it is useless.
The waving point is as follows:
Currently: I can type /me waves and my conversation partner can see it instantly, no matter where they are, and know I am waving to them.
Ambulation: I travel to a remote location where my friend is at. I then spent time walking to their location within the station. I type /me waves and my conversation partner sees me wave.
Currently: Quick and communicative Ambulation: Orders of magnitude longer to do with the same end result.
How can taking longer to do the same thing cause someone to use a system? It can't. That's why it's broken.
Those are the only 2 points that have been raised. I've addressed them both. If you feel there are others please share them and I will respond.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 17:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tchell Dahhn Please do not feed the troll.
This can be achieved by not responding to his questions, nor providing any response to his obvious flames. Your responses to his posts is exactly what he is looking for, and we need to be proactive about this, going forward.
Numerous opinions have been provided from numerous sources, and it is obvious that the only thing the troll would like, is to continue arguing his points, while discounting others' opinions.
Let us continue the conversation as if he is not even there. I, for one, am excited about ambulation, and am looking forward to the options that it will, undoubtedly, unlock.
And again we attack the person and not the argument.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 18:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dismus
As I have already shared them, please enlighten me with your response. I always have a good laugh listening to people who know nothing of the IT industry tell me what's really happening with it.
Attacking the poster again rather than addressing the arguments I put forward.
I don't care about about CCP's other projects. I play EvE. If they want to test they can have a beta. That's the norm in the industry.
Why do you feel people will use ambulation? What is there to do in ambulation that will bring people there to test it? Why would they use this system over the existing, easier, and quicker system?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 18:31:00 -
[26]
Edited by: B1FF on 24/01/2008 18:33:12
Originally by: Dismus
Originally by: B1FF
I don't care about about CCP's other projects. I play EvE. If they want to test they can have a beta. That's the norm in the industry.
Unfortunately, this isn't the norm in the industry for testing something like this.
What other MMPOGs have added something to their existing game for testing rather than launching a beta?
Please show where CCP has stated it is not a permanent feature. Eris' post a few up seems to indicate otherwise.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 18:44:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Reecoh Soltar
I don't know if having a full avatar would have kept them in Eve, but I think it would have helped them to transition from other MMO experiences to Eve, and they would have given it a bit more of a real chance. For that reason ambulation may actually help get and keep some new long-term accounts.
Assuming ambulation was in when they played: When would these PvPers have seen their avatars?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 19:15:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Disteeler
Look man, it looks that you don't know much about socializing in mmo or maybe it's just you have too much time in your hands for trolling.
And more attacks on my person.
Quote:
Avatars are a "tool" for people that like that kind of aspect in game. And there are just some very basic tools in EvE for this (chat and some other minor ones). EvE, as a sandbox world, is almost all about having tools to develope your playstyle and your own content, and you have them for fighting, for trading, for building, for a lot of things, but for socializing those are very basic (for those that like those; for those that don't are probably enough, but that doesen't mean those tools are not to be developed if there is ppl wanting them). It's called evolution.
As I've said before what would they do with the avatars? Do you seriously believe that your friends bailed because that didn't have human shaped avatars? All players in EvE already have avatars. If they didn't it would be impossible to shoot anyone. It would be impossible to talk to anyone. That if they would have been able to pop into ambulation and verify that they have legs they would have stayed and played?
You talk about evolution in socialization but I view it as a step back. What you gain is the ability to see me wave. What you loose is the ability to communicate from anywhere.
As I've said before. Why would I spend time and effort to relocate in order socialize with you when I can socialize with you right now. Regardless of where I am right now.
You're trading unlimited communication for limited communication. Only the exceptions, people who currently pay to primarily chat, are going to make that choice. That's why ambulation is broken and is going to be a ghost town.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 19:57:00 -
[29]
Edited by: B1FF on 24/01/2008 19:57:22
Originally by: Reecoh Soltar
In both cases the lack of an avatar was mentioned to me as a key reason they decided not to subscribe. Not the only reason, but a key one.
It had more to do with personalization and immersion for them than anything else I think. Being players of various fantasy (and a few sci-fi) MMOs, I suggested they think of the ship as their armor, but they missed the ability to do "meaningless" customizations to an avatar they could share with friends in a casual way. They take the ship away and they had their pod. Nothing else. So while they couldn't see the avatar when in combat using their ships, being able to walk around among other players and see, perhaps, things like corp logos, battle medals, or other "wearable" things appeals to them.
If the ships could have been custom built or otherwise changed perhaps that would have helped as well. I don't know.
I get why you think this is a waste of time, effort and ISK for CCP. I personally am fine with the ships being the visual focus of the game too - it is a spaceship combat game after all - but I have real life evidence that says being able to visually project your own (or your character's) personality to other players is important to some people. Clearly CCP feels its important enough to devote time, effort and ISK into trying.
This I understand. Ship customization would be an asset to EvE. Ship customization gives the personal touch you mention and would be used all the time. The majority of the game is spent in your ship.
The flawed argument for ambulation is that it would fit the role that ship customization does. Ambulation is a sense of self in a specific nerfed manner. With ship customization it would be used all the time. With ambulation it can only be used when you're not doing anything else.
Ship customization gives sense of self that does not limit game play. Ambulation gives a sense of self that is only usable when you limit your game play to only socialization.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.24 23:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Talisorn
How can you say no one will use it? I'll use it. Plenty of people here have sated they'll use it. And they are just the people posting on the forums. Even if 20% of the people who play use it, it's going to still be interesting. It kind of immediately invalidates your point.
Simple game theory dictates that no one will use it. There's no pay off. Currently I can socialize and do missions, I can socialize and PvP, I can socialize when I travel. I can literally socialize while doing anything in the game. i can socialize with people anywhere in the universe. With ambulation you can socialize. Why would someone choose socialize and nothing when you can pick socialize plus something. Especially when it's limited socialization with only the people around me and nothing.
People won't shop there. They can shop in space while doing other things why would they dock up and spend time walking to the store to shop.
People think they will use it. They honestly believe they will. They won't. They'll take a spin through and realize that it's pointless. What is there to do? The only things mentioned by CCP are talk and play dress up. People will go there at launch and then realize there is no reason to go back.
For it to be used they'd have to do something like force you to walk to the LP Store and they've already said they won't do that.
As I've said before the people who currently spend the majority of their time socializing will use it. That's it.
Fix the core game. Don't waste resources on ambulation. That's how you get more people.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:00:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Artem Plovix *snip - Mitnal*
Have you ever played another MMO? The social aspect is Eve is SEVERELY LACKING compared to pretty much every other MMO ever. You play any other game and you can walk into town, say hello to everyone, find some new friends to go do quests with, and do all sorts of things. In Eve, you're limited to PMing each person individually, you have to pay a fee, they have to accept the PM, etc. It makes communication and socialization VERY difficult comparatively.
*snip - Mitnal*
There have been a lot of posts about the socialization aspect and how ambulation will increase socialization. Let's look at that for a minute. There's the idea that ambulation will somehow increase socialization. This is wrong. It's wrong for 2 main reasons.
The first is that what people think ambulation will offer is actually already in the game. Every system has a local channel. Through local you can see everyone in the system and talk to everyone in the system. It's exactly the same as city/area wide chat channels in other games. In other games what you chat you are rarely near the person you are talking with. Granted sometimes you are but the vast majority of the time you are not. The tools are already there to socialize. No one uses them.
The second is cities/stations. People reference cities as bustling centers of socialization. They are. However ambulation will not create this behavior due to fundamental design differences. In other games you don't go to cities to socialize. You go for a variety of reasons and end up socializing while you are there.
Here are some of the things players go to cities for: Commerce Travel Stations LFG Quests Trainers PvP/RvR Housing Token turn in/LP Store type mechanics. Creating a Guild/Corp/Society Banking
With ambulation you will have limited commerce, clothing. Other than that none of these activities are announced to exist in ambulation. Most of them have been stated as not existing in ambulation. If they do exist they will take more time to execute then if you simply docked and did them. These activities draw people to congregate which leads to socialization.
The idea that ambulation will bring people to socialize is predicated on the idea that ambulation will bring people to socialize. If people wanted to socialize they would use the existing tools. They don't. The side effect socialization that happens when people congregate won't happen because people won't congregate. All the reasons that people congregate at locations in other games already exist in EvE outside ambulation.
On the subject of mini-games, poker was mentioned. Why limit those to ambulation? Again that's a broken design. The mini-game is simply going to be played in a window. That window can be opened anywhere. There's no reason you have to use ambulation to play. You're not going to drag and drop the cards off the dock onto the table in full 3D. Why pre-nerf the poker app by forcing people to dock up? You'll find a lot more players for the mini-games if you open it to undocked players. For example I'd love to be able to play something in game, rather than on my DS, while sieging POSes.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Cybarite honestly I can see some very good uses for ambulation, mostly the interactive map, by allowing you to meet outside your ships it will allow people to discuss strategy trade routs or just look over an area before they move there. My brother likes the idea of eve and what it represents, but he says he won't join till ambulation comes in, why? because he wants to be able to see his character and interact with other characters as more than just a spaceship. IMO this will bring many people into the game because it's a whole new dimension of gameplay.
What new dimension of gameplay? Talking? Already exists. Playing dress up? Other products do that significantly better. The fact is he will still be interacting the vast majority of his time as a spaceship because that's the game. There's no game in ambulation. No objective. No means of achieving anything.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:12:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Reiisha
Game theory is just that, theory. It also doesn't really apply to video games, since they are entertainment rather than a real game, at least in the past few years. The entire game theory stuff has been made up mostly for old fashioned board games, games with a simple set of rules, rather than the rather more complex games you play on a console or PC.
A couple of points.
Gravity is a theory. Mathematics is based on some unprovable theories. Theory does not equal not true.
Economies more and more are starting to be planned with game theory. It's not simply something to be used for board games.
Quote: You can't throw more and more money and programmers at the same piece of code in hoping to fix it. All you'll do is waste a lot of money and create a hell of alot of problems. Or are you one of those people that needs the whole neighbourhood to come along, since you need at least 100 people to change a lightbulb? Since that is what you are demanding. It's ridiculously stupid, if i may be so blunt.
CCP is branching off here. Ambulation has been made by people who have absolutely no idea how the code for the rest of EVE works. Or do you want concept artists and 3d modellers to bug fix core cluster networkining code?
Maybe those people don't know anything about EvE but those people use resources. The resources could be spent on people who can do bug fixes. Additionally resources will be spent on integrating ambulation. Subservers will have to be added to the cluster. It will have to be integrated into the two clients. Ambulation will requires a significant amount of resources from the current EvE team. Period.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: B1FF Simple game theory dictates that no one will use it. There's no pay off.
The payoff is immersion.
Immersion doesn't exist. It's a fictional idea that people think they want. It can't exist.
Turn your head to the right. What do you see?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:53:00 -
[35]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
hmm, you dont seem to get behind the idea, that the point is _not_ starting the socializing in ambu. its about _widening_ the tools for socializing. furthermore while for some people the "area" chat is enough, others would like to have a "local" chat while seeing the other one. you seem to want to ignore that as well.
I don't see it as a widening. It's a limiting. Ambulation is effectively a different world. It's walled off. The fact that you have to travel to the same "physical" location so you can see a hand wave is frankly a step backwards.
If "B1FF waves." is not meaningful to someone then they have significant language problems and should seek professional help. I'm not trying to be insulting there. This is communication on a level that 3 year-old should be capable of.
Quote: aaaand, people in SWG (for example) tend to go in cantinas to get buffs. but a wide range of people go there to sit at the tables, watch the entertainers, talk, laugh, etc. furthermore (here too) guild applications are done "face to face". they _can_ be easiliy done over the chat-interface but most are in fact done face to face.
This is the congregation I mention. Due to buffs and mind healing people come to cantinas. Because people congregate socialization occurs. If the buffs and mind healing weren't there the socialization would not happen. Look at bars in every other game. They're empty except for special RP events.
I don't understand your comment on face to face. What do you mean by face to face? Can you expound on that please?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 16:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Adonis 4174 Edited by: Adonis 4174 on 25/01/2008 16:54:03
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: B1FF Simple game theory dictates that no one will use it. There's no pay off.
The payoff is immersion.
Immersion doesn't exist. It's a fictional idea that people think they want. It can't exist.
Turn your head to the right. What do you see?
Nothing in Eve exists. What's your point?
To my right I see a Mr Potato Head 'Trick or Tater'. I could explain what it's doing there but your head might explode.
Immersion doesn't exist. It's a fictional idea that people think they want. It can't exist.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 18:58:00 -
[37]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
*parts trimmed for space* because, right now, you have _no_ "physical" chance to see someone waving a hand. emotes are the only way. so, if you implement a mod that _gives_ you the chance to see another one raise a hand "physically", while maintaining the possibility to do all the things per text-emote it can't be a step backward. because it gave _additional_ "tools" for communication/socializing.
Okay. I'll agree with your definition that it is an additional tool. There is more functionality. My point has always been, "So what?" Why would anyone bother to use this new tool? That's really the core of my opposition. There's no way for me to tell where you are. There's no reason for me to enter ambulation on my own. You have to socialize with me to tell me to come socialize with you. That makes no sense. Spending significant resources on it makes even less sense.
Quote: likeminded people tend to congregate. if there is no obvious place like the cantina then they are meeting at other places. i've seen many spontanous camp-parties an naboo (to stay for a moment at SWG) and other places. cantinas, with the steady flow on people waiting for buffs created places to congegate. and after a while more and more people came to cantinas just to socialize.
You're making my point for me. From day one there were valid game mechanic reasons to congregate in camps and cantinas. This lead to socialization as you indicate. This was by design. Ambulation has no such design. Ambulation has nothing to create congregation. According to everything CCP has said, including Eris in this thread, there is no game mechanic to cause congregation. If there's no congregation then there is no socialization.
People play EvE because it's a game. They have to have at least some minor interesting in the game mechanics. There are cheaper and more feature rich chat engines out there for those not interested in the game aspect.
Quote: band talk cut for space
While performing you still heal. There is a game mechanic reason for people to enter the cantina. There is a game mechanic reason for people to watch you. If there were no game mechanic reasons for people to enter the cantina they would never think to enter past their first curious newb visit. If there's no game mechanic to cause people to play then there's no one for the newb to see to clue him in that he should come back. The game mechanic is the tool that get's the whole congregation/socialization ball started. Once it's started it can keep going on it's own and turn into what is a game specific culture.
Quote: what im trying to get across: given an incentive to "ambulate", be it casinos or the map or the tiniest possibility to make ISK, it will evolve, im sure. and thats are just the rather "cold" incentives. additionally RPers, corps that want to try something out and the other players that waited for ambu will create more "soft" incentives.
The map is not incentive. The map will be usable outside ambulation. Why spend time walking to the map and then walking back when you don't have to? RPers never leads to a culture of any significant size due to the narrow focus and the sheer difficulty of fitting in.
Given all the info we have from CCP there is no incentive to use ambulation. Thus there will be no congregation. Thus there will be no socialization. This is why ambulation is a broken design. After the first weeks and people take a stroll through it and maybe buy some clothes then what? For it to be viable they have create a game mechanic reason to use it. They've already said no fighting. There will be no market except dress up dolls. Where's the incentive?
Quote: "face to face" = "avatar to avatar"
Are you saying EvE has avatars without ambulation? When you say face to face interview new corp members what exactly are you doing?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 20:23:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
You keep saying that and it keeps not being the case.
It is the case. You may be greatly absorbed in a game but immersion is impossible. Friendship, obligation, sense of power, sense of accomplishment, simple joy. These things can keep you playing but immersion is impossible.
First off you can see around the edges of the monitor. You can hear things. You still feel bodily functions. You're mortal.
At our level of technology forgetting that you're playing a game is a sign of mental defect.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 20:37:00 -
[39]
Show's how much I know. Maybe I need to learn that a www.google.ca deffinition[sic] of a word applies at all times. So if it's not in www.google.ca, it's not right, right Khalish Mo'Tashi?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.25 21:28:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Khalish Mo'Tashi *Troll babble*
And that's what I get for feeding the trolls. I'm not the troll. I'm a dissenting opinion. I've provided lengthy explanations that have yet to be refuted. If you want to debate then debate. if not then *plonk*.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 13:07:00 -
[41]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
since some time now, there is no more mind damage in SWG. :) so people watching us get really nothing except for fun and a show. buffing etc. needs way more player interaction since some "chapters".
sooo, people really come to see us play. thats the incentive. not healing or buffing.
Seriously? Is there any game left in that product? Anyways. You mention momentum in your next post. You're coasting off the time when mind damage and BF forces people into cantinas. There was a game design that encouraged socialization that created the cantina culture. Ambulation lacks this. That's why it's broken.
Quote:
meeting the applicant "avatar to avatar" at a station, after a short checkup via the "normal" means of communications (chatchannels). the applicant hast to visit the corp HQ anyways to file a application.
sory again, for beeing short atm.
So you have face to face and avatar to avatar without ambulation. Making the applicant walk to office via ambulation is a nerf over the current system. It takes longer. Eris said you won't have to walk to the corp office you can just do it from the hanger. So why would anyone?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 13:08:00 -
[42]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
back on topic: if an initial incentive is given, the whole thing takes up an own momentum. ah well, we will see when ambu hits. its all just speculation atm.
Exactly. Ambu has no incentive. They've said it will be optional which means no incentive is likely possible.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.28 13:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: LT Mace has anyone ever thought the possibility of wandering through your hangar? or corp hanger? going into your corporations office and paying bills?
Yes I have. It's the core of the problem with ambu.
Current system: Open wallet. pay bill.
Your proposal: Fly to system with hanger. Walk to office. Walk to bill pay interface. Pay bill.
Why would people spend more time to perform the same action? They might once for novelty.
As for your PvP comments they've already said no fighting in ambu.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 15:20:00 -
[44]
Originally by: James Swindle
Originally by: B1FF
Originally by: LT Mace has anyone ever thought the possibility of wandering through your hangar? or corp hanger? going into your corporations office and paying bills?
Yes I have. It's the core of the problem with ambu.
Current system: Open wallet. pay bill.
Your proposal: Fly to system with hanger. Walk to office. Walk to bill pay interface. Pay bill.
Why would people spend more time to perform the same action? They might once for novelty.
As for your PvP comments they've already said no fighting in ambu.
They said no fighting is the first incarnation of Ambulation.
Let's be perfectly clear here. There are also no plans for it in the second, third, fourth or any incarnation. Combat is not currently planned but it is not off the table.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.29 15:23:00 -
[45]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
mhhh, i guess argueing about this (and paying bills, etc.) with a roleplayer like me and other in this thread using cold facts is a little pointless. RPers and socializers will find incentives where other people find nothing. its a bit like explaining why someone is roleplaying P&P to the coach of a rugby team (very rough and simplified said). its just two different mindsets (which is not bad and by no means an attack on one of the personalities).
True RPers do find incentive where others don't. However you are also a small minority. Especially in a PvP based game. Creating a project of this size simply so you can take longer to perform actions that you can already perform is a waste.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 12:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Can you PLEASE just attempt to understand that this is being developed for the new game that Whiteowl and CCP are working on ANYWAY. This is not taking resources from EVE. Stop your *****ing.
You are quite simply wrong.
Sure the engine is being developed for their other game. What about integrating that engine with the current EvE engine? Tying ambulation into the chat system. What about the new servers that need to be integrated into the cluster? What about the design work being done? How is ambulation going to get to us? Someone has to create the patch and/or installation point. Testing?
Significant resources from the existing EvE team will be diverted for ambulation.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 12:03:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus Is the suggested War Room feature Ambulation exclusive?
The dev blog that announced the War Room idea indicated that it would not be Ambulation exclusive. What good is a map you can't take with you when you go into battle?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 12:07:00 -
[48]
Edited by: B1FF on 30/01/2008 12:07:33
Originally by: Talisorn
But I recognise there are some the "hardcore" players that don't see a benefit of the kind of game I play (probably for the same reasons they see no benefit to Ambulation). I personally see no benefit to me in playing the hardcore PvP game.
It's not that I see no benefit for me it's that I see no benefit for anyone. I see the design as broken. I've made these points. If you'd like to address them I'd be more than happy to respond.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 18:44:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Janu Hull troll snipped
And people accuse me of not understanding software development?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.30 18:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Alqualonde
Granted, the quantity and variance of environments will be limited no doubt, and thus eventually there will not be so much of a thrill in seeing new and cool looking areas, though for a lot of people the idea of physically visiting a corporate HQ will remain fun (especially as these will be customizable). But there's another reason this will improve EVE a great deal: lore.
At least you acknowledge the problem. Sure they'll be shiny to look at. You'll enjoy walking around once or twice, maybe half a dozen times. Then what? Ok you've taken your stroll through the station. Now what? The Ooo shiny will wear off. This is human nature. After the honeymoon why would you ever go there?
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.31 17:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Demeterus
A lot of standings will be affected by this. You meet a guy in a station bar, get in an argument, set the standing to <-5, and then the two climb into their pods again. Out in space, they can then kill each other. Or launch a war against each others corporations.
This is the sort of ambulation interaction that only exists in fantasy. This is exactly the sort of fantasy that causes people to think ambulation will be a good idea. But it's pure fantasy.
The problem with this situation is that it is predicated on there being someone in the bar to get angry at. Look at the design they've showed us for Ambulation. There is nothing in the design to cause people to be in the bar for you to interact with.
Ambulation will launch. People will check it out. They will redo their avatar. They will buy clothing. Then they will not go back. CCP has provided no reason for anyone to go back. With the current system you can socialize while doing anything you want. With ambulation you can socialize while doing nothing.
You have to stop playing EvE to use ambulation. That's why it's a broken design. That's the point no one has been able to address. After the honeymoon people will have no reason to go. There will be no one for you to interact with. The example you give won't happen.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.31 22:27:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Alqualonde Edited by: Alqualonde on 31/01/2008 21:35:21 Edited by: Alqualonde on 31/01/2008 21:34:15 Edited by: Alqualonde on 31/01/2008 21:27:39 Your argument finally makes a little sense, but you are still neglecting that messing with avatars and corp HQ is incentive to use ambulation.
I think you over estimate how much the player base wants to play dress up. If someone wants to spend that much time customizing their avatar they're in the wrong game. Other places do it better. You'd be happier going there.
As for Corp HQ customization. I have no clue why people bring it up. Can you explain that? Are you going to join a corp based on their decorations? Not join it based on decorations? Why would you load into ambulation, walk to the corp office, do what ever, walk back to the hanger, load into station when you could just use the existing interface and save yourself time?
Quote: And to be honest, my socializing is currently hampered a great deal by gameplay concerns on many occasions. If I'm ratting I can't pay much attention to corp chat since I have to watch the recon channels and local 100% of the time. So in that respect, if I don't want to see another roid or angel spawn and just feel like socializing and looking at maps, ambulation will be a more enjoyable way to do it.
How will it be more enjoyable? What value is added?
Quote: It is, however, a valid point that for the appeal to be truly lasting, ambulation will have to be a meaningful extension of the current gameplay. As I've just been elaborating, I'm optimistic from what I've read, and I'll still be glad of ambulation being in the game even if no one uses it. I just like the idea, for reasons I've already outlined.
Why are you optimistic? Can you give examples of what they've said and why that makes you optimistic?
Quote: Ultimately, we don't really know enough about it yet to make judgment calls about what it will add. I'm not sure CCP has even said they've finalized the featureset.
You made a judgment call on it in this post. Then you said we can't possibly make a judgment call. Which is it?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.01.31 22:32:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Aidin Amado
That post of mine you responded to? Just assume I reposted it here because all the points I made in it apply to your post.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 14:08:00 -
[54]
Originally by: WulfWestphal Edited by: WulfWestphal on 31/01/2008 22:43:12
Originally by: B1FF
Quote: And to be honest, my socializing is currently hampered a great deal by gameplay concerns on many occasions. If I'm ratting I can't pay much attention to corp chat since I have to watch the recon channels and local 100% of the time. So in that respect, if I don't want to see another roid or angel spawn and just feel like socializing and looking at maps, ambulation will be a more enjoyable way to do it.
How will it be more enjoyable? What value is added?
im doing a selective quoting here, because, frankly, its really getting old and tiring. at least 10 people, if not more, told you already more then one time how it will be more enjoyable to them, me included. even in the post you quoted were the answer to your question. i dont get why you ask for the reason but dont want to hear it. ah well, we will see.
You are completely wrong. All you say, and I quote, is "ambulation will be a more enjoyable way to do it." That's it. You make no mention of why ambulation will be a more enjoyable way to perform an action you can already perform.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 14:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Disteeler Edited by: Disteeler on 31/01/2008 22:50:21 That guy will continue spinning the wheel. He's having fun trying to do semantic tricks and dialectics war. He knows people will enjoy ambulation and know exactly how, it's just about playing dialectics in the forum. Just that. Oh, and the arrogance is just epic.
Not at all. I firmly believe it's a broken design.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 14:10:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Fyrewyre Edited by: Fyrewyre on 01/02/2008 00:37:09 I dont really want to be a killjoy, ive read the first ten pages, browsed the rest, however i have a question.
How will me getting from bar/meeting/room/warroom afect the amount of time it takes for me to scramble my ship when xxxx corp member gets into trouble with a gate camp, being probed in a safe or generally just being attacked?.
Do i have to run all the way to my ship watch a pretty scene of my pod being loaded into the ship, the if any, crew boarding, then pretty undock scene, then listen to corpmate scream at me with WTF were you doing for the last ten minutes?
Dunno if the subject has been touched on, if it has then i agree, if not, it needs to be adressed.
You will have to walk to your ship. They have explicitly stated that there will be no instant transit.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Cry more? Its no different than having to fly to a station once you're in a system to dock up and swap to another ship.
It saddens me that you feel your position is so weak that you have to keep attacking me. I'm not crying. My intentions are altruistic. I like EvE. I like CCP. I see a broken design. I'm trying to point out the flaws in said broken design so they may be fixed.
If ambulation will auto walk me to my destination then I will agree with you. If I have to manually walk then it's completely different.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Disteeler Edited by: Disteeler on 31/01/2008 22:39:42
People will do for the sake of doing it, they will find it funny, interesting or whatever it is. I f u ever played Star Wars Galaxies there was a lot of player decorated houses, guild houses, etc that didn't hold any special "use" as opposed to the cantine and ppl enjoyed decorating it, showing to friends, doing guild meetings, etc Even the cantina was full of ppl sit in the chairs chatting and not for the "use" of it (buffing). Ppl create their own fun in sandbox mmos even if there is no any apparent "mechanic" use.
I played that and it was very enjoyable (until SOE screwed the combat sistem...twice and ppl ran away of the game). Sadly you have not played Star Wars Galaxies, it was a trully "world simulation" experience.
Sadly you do not understand swg. For all those people who feel the need to make swg reference please note the following large difference between swg and ambulation. The non-combat stuff in swg had it's basis in game mechanics. There are no game mechanics in ambulation.
I've already covered cantinas in a previous post. You mention housing so let's go there. Housing has at least 5 game mechanics. First off storage was limited in swg and houses were a means of storing things. This creates a reason for players to use houses. Second the best crafting stations could only be used in player housing. This creates a reason for players to use houses. You had to place a player housing guild hall to create a guild. This creates a reason for players to use houses. Fourth: Player cities. Nuff said on that. Fifth: a house was a safe haven.
With player housing in swg there were numerous mechanics that made you want to place a house. Decorating it was something additional to do with a house. It's something that cannot stand on it's own but as an additional feature it was an asset to swg.
Ambulation has no game mechanic to cause people to use it. After the tourist period post launch the best that can be hoped for is bored fleet op people ******* around in it while they wait to deploy.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:48:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Janu Hull
The impression you seem to be under is that some functionality is being removed from the existing game in order to accomodate Ambulation. The impression I'm getting is that Ambulation will be 100% optional. No functionality added to ambulation, other than the avatar-centric elements, will replace any element of the current game.
No. My position is that ambulation is a broken design. It is a completely separate "world" as it were. There is no incentive to use it thus it will not be used. Thus any resources spent on it are a complete waste.
Quote: You're making a big deal about what's essentially a side show. If you want to stay in your ship and be a little misanthrope, go for it. You will not lose one iota of gameplay functionality you have currently.
But there's also no addition on gameplay.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Missy X in a constant circular argument.
Please explain how my argument is circular.
The pro ambulation argument is circular. It uses the fact that people will be in ambulation socializing as the start and the end.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: WulfWestphal
and that is bad, why? because the mantime of some people who are dedicated programmers and designers for this addon is wasted on roleplayers (and socializers)?
This is a fallacy. Deploying ambulation will take resources away from the current EvE live team. Please see my earlier post about it.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:54:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Fyrewyre
At no point did i state it was a bad idea, i said i thought it would be more appealing to a certain player base, just like mining is to people who want to mine.
Any change to mining quite literally effects every player.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 16:40:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Lord Evangelian I have realized Lord Evangelian is trolling with epic proportions, he is disguising his trolls as valid argument. An argument is the disagreement of an existing point resulting in the weighing up of the pros and cons for each stimuli until a resolution is found. Lord Evangelian is saying he is arguing the idea that ambulations is warranted and is not a waste of time. Ok, but this is his opinion. He has made his statement, so it is up to other people to argue against it.
This is where I am at annoyed at Lord Evangelian, because he is saying how other people will/will not enjoy the add-on to the game. He is also assuming that his thesis is 100% correct. It cannot be proven correct because it hasn't happened yet, if anything his statements are purely theoretical and hypothetical, so cannot been seen with the amount of credit and authority that he believes them to be valued.
There I fixed that for you.
If I'm a troll then you and all the pro-ambulation people are also trolls.
I repeat yet again. I am not trolling. I see a huge design flaw and am trying to provoke discussion on it. Even though I raise valid points the main response I receive is, "Shut the **** up troll. Ambulation is cool." I feel these responses further prove my point. If Ambulation really was all that then you would be able to dismantle my points.
Instead I get this **** about it being my opinion. Yeah it's my opinion. I wrote it how could it not be? The idea that it's just my opinion and not valid is nonsensical. If everything I say can some how be invalidated by "It's your opinion." then everything you say is "your opinion" and thus equally invalid and meaningless.
I believe you think you will use ambulation. I also beleive you're wrong. The only argument I've seen for ambulation is that people have a hard time talking to others when all they have is a picture and text to relate to. These are the same people who on a daily basis make use of email, myspace, facebook, texting, IRC, and/or IM. In the real world they make extensive use of socialization technologies that have the exact same or less visual rep as what they are complaining about in EvE in their pro-ambulation arguments.
People will not stop playing the game to use full body chat.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 18:40:00 -
[64]
Edited by: B1FF on 04/02/2008 18:40:31 EDIT: Typo
Originally by: Hans Langer
1. CCP has envisioned this in EVE since its conception, they would have put it in the original version if they had had the resources and time. 2. At the launch there will be offices for rental and also OTHER premises for players to use, these are the ones that will become player owned shops, bars, nightclubs etc. 3. With the above mentioned premises, Ambulation opens up a whole new way to play the game, which CCP have stated is quite a big thing for them. It 'opens up new portals into the EVE universe' as Torfi put it. 4. Pod pilots have been able to get out of their pods in the background fiction forever, so why can't we? It is nice to take a stroll down a promanade, meet up with your friends and go out flying. Or go exploring the places that have been so expertly described in the fiction (I personally would like to go and walk around 'The City of God').
If you look carefully you will see that only part of point 4 is my opinion, the rest is fact. So there are plenty of reasons to use Ambulation, the stations will not, as you put it, 'be ghost towns shortly after launch' as there will be continuing changes made within these stations by the players (as they develop their bars/shops etc).
What are these plenty of reasons? The points you list are not reasons to use ambulation. They are things to do in ambulation. There is a difference between the two. "Build it and they will come." only works in the movies.
Also if point 4 is an opinion then it is invalid according to Lord Evangelion.
Quote: One final thing, if you are just hanging around in a station for whatever reason (using the text chat) you may as well walk around the station as you will still be able to use the text chat to talk to the people you were. This is because, in the fiction, it is explained that the implants in pod pilot's head connect them with a constant stream of information and communication. It is not the ships or pods that initiate PM with other players but the implants inside your own head, therefore you will be able to talk to the same people, whether they are in space or a station.
I've never contested this. How is this relevant to my position?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 18:16:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lord Evangelian
You keep saying ambulation is fluff and not needed, perhaps for you, but your only seeing it from your perspective of EVE an dhow you play. Have you taken into account the people who plan to use it? I know I do, and others. Because I one day say, I'm not gonna use ambulation doesn't mean it has a design flaw and is point less.
This is not my point. I have not said it is fluff and not needed. My point is that as designed it will not be used and thus is a waste of resources.
*Irrelevant examples snipped*
Quote: PS: Really mature changing your name for mine in yoru quotation, if this was a real argument in a court of law while under cross examination, or in a philosophy's seminar you would have lost any credibility for your argument there and then...
I was showing that your post lacked any content because it meant the same regardless of who's name was in it. If this were a real argument in a court of law while under cross examination, or in a philosphy's [sic] seminar you would have lost any credibility for the personal attacks you make.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 18:22:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Alqualonde
That being as such, it is more immediately enjoyable, and interesting, for the average person, playing a game, to see other humans around. Most of the time that I'm playing what you think of as the "real" game, the social aspect is just equivalent to IMing with strangers, sans humorous buddy icons and a readable font. Looking at fully-costumed avatars (and people always do creative things that are interesting) with expressions and emotes is a lot more fun.
Said avatars will only be visable if you stop playing the game. This is part of the design flaw I mention.
Quote: Also, other people already explained the sandbox effect in regards to clothes and corp HQ using SWG as an example so I'll just add one anecdote:
If you'd like to address the points I made about the non-combat stuff having firm grounding in game design please do.
Quote: Way back when I was living in a college dorm, my roommate and I tried Anarchy Online once. The game itself was a bit over-complicated and tedious, but we had endless fun just exploring and pooling our resources to buy the most ridiculous clothing we could find. This is a type of MMO gameplay that EVE is sorely lacking. 90% of everything I do in the game is to further some goal, rather than purely for fun.
Did you ever pay for AO or did you only use a free account? How long did you play AO for?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 18:28:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Hans Langer
Obvious plug aside, something to do within Ambulation is an incentive to use it and therefore, a reason.
It's not. Killing yourself is something to do but it doesn't seem to be very popular.
The thing is there's really no reason to do anything in ambulation. Please see my earlier corp office comment.
The idea that people will use ambulation is predicated on the fact that people will be using ambulation. The only argument I've seen that people would frequent your bar is that people want to socialize. For people to be able to socialize in your bar people need to frequent your bar. I don't think people are going to stop playing the game just to frequent your bar. People are not going to relocate and stop playing just to socialize.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 18:42:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Templar Vox
However, back to the incentive part of the discussion, what about a "boiler room" aka market exchange room? Buyers and sellers of goods would go there and with ambulation you could actually SEE the people who are interested in such tradings and seek them out individually or in groups. Instead of just watching the market window itself you could trade directly and haggle over price. It would be radically different from today. Perhaps a change to the worse some would say. I dont know, Im just tossing out ideas.
Your example wonderfully illustrates the problem with ambulation. Your example sounds cool and neat but why would anyone use it? It's a more time consuming and limiting way to do what you can already do. Currently one can shop while they travel, or mission run, or mine, or explore. You can buy and sell (with skills) from anywhere in the region. You can browse contracts from anywhere in the Universe. Why would you limit yourself to having to dock to browse. Additionally the big market players don't care about you. They have no interest in who is buying their stuff as long as someone is buying their stuff.
There is no incentive to use the 'boiler room." People will visit it to check it out but no regular usage pattern will develop.
Quote: The bar is of course another obvious room to add to any station. It's a pure socialization room. They could perhaps add some mini-games to the bar? Card-games, darts or the like?
Why limit the mini-games to the bar? If you're going to have poker let the miners buy into the poker game. Let the gate campers buy into the poker game. Let the POS siegers buy into the poker game. Let the truck drivers buy in. Ambulation is not a prereq for mini-games.
Quote: Banks and other financial institutions could also have their own offices that customers and other relations could visit in person. Corps should have their own office too which new recruits can check out - like booths.
Please see my earlier, unanswered, points on corp offices. They apply to banks also.
Quote: Another feature of ambulation I'd LOVE to see would be being able to visit another player's ship. In the future maybe 1 ship/carrier/titan could be manned by several players having different roles? That would make each ship stronger and change combat as we know it today, and perhaps also solve some of the problems with big fleet battles and lag? It would also be even more dynamic perhaps. And I'd love to take a beer over in my bud's ship.
This is irrelevant. This is completely outside the realm of ambulation. CCP has never mentioned anything remotely close to this.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 18:51:00 -
[69]
Edited by: B1FF on 05/02/2008 18:51:03
Originally by: Alqualonde
Beyond that, we have no way of knowing anything worth being half so bitter about as you seem to be. CCP has described some of the features, but we've seen nary a screenshot of what the final experience will be like. I say, until we have something more concrete, just let them do their thing and then we will see what it's like when it comes out, eh? If CCP has been monitoring this discussion at all, they could have scarcely missed your lamentations.
You should probably point this out to the pro-ambulation people. I'm posting my opinion. They're posting theirs. CCP gave us this thread to talk about ambulation. That's what I'm doing.
Quote: Also, you had best be quiet on the resources issue unless you are actually a CCP employee in disguise.
No. It will take resources from the current EvE team. That's an undebatable fact.
Originally by: B1FF Did you ever pay for AO or did you only use a free account? How long did you play AO for?
Never payed for it, except once by accident. There was probably something at least a little worth paying for there, but I am poor and EVE is better.
So you're using a game that is not worth paying for as an argument? A game that you didn't like and found playing dress up in "ridiculous"?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.05 22:16:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Alqualonde
You're also really angry about it, and not really addressing the counterpoints in a rational fashion. (I could go back a few pages and quote endless copy-pasted nonsense about the supposed meaninglessness of immersion back at you.)
I'm not angry. I see a problem. I'm trying to address the problem. What people don't seem to realize is that I want ambulation to work but in the design we've been shown it's impossible.
What counter points have I not addressed? I've repeatedly given reasons why ambulations will not be a significant socialization tool.
I firmly believe immersion doesn't exist. If someone forgets that they are playing a game then that person has serious psychological issues and they should seek professional help. The idea that a human figure on the screen will somehow convince people they are not sitting in front of a computer and are in fact on a space station is comical.
Quote: No. It will take resources from the current EvE team. That's an undebatable fact.
Quote: So many have posted on this issue it's not even funny. Whether their point is valid or yours is is not an issue that can be resolved by anyone except a CCP employee.
That's completely wrong. I've posted a list of things that the existing team will have to do. If you'd like to address those please do so. There's no way a change of this scale can be done without resources from the existing EvE team. Sure the engine is being _written_ by a different team but there are a grocery list of other things that need to be done.
Quote: * It has been fun, but also probably a waste of the last ten pages due to the scarcity of actual intelligent debate.
I've tried for intelligent debate. I've provided reasons why ambulation won't be used. I've pointed out the circular logic of the socialization justification. People refuse to address these issues. All I get in response is, "nah uh. ambu is c00lz!"
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.06 11:29:00 -
[71]
Quote: I think you're out to christen the christians. Try the Devs instead.
I can't be trying to christen the christians as I don't have a support base to pander to. I'm simply trying to bring an alternate view point to what is otherwise a completely one sided thread.
Why do you feel that I'm not allowed my viewpoint?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.08 18:30:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Kurt Laundry
Originally by: B1FF No need for a long post. I'm not crying like a little girl.
Your answers are indicative of the failure that is ambulation. Not a single pro-ambulation person has counted a single one of my points. So far the only arguments raised have been the following.
1. Shut up. 2. I want it. 3. It won't effect you. (This is hilarious because it's one of my points against it) 4. OMG I get to dance and play dress up! PONIEZ!
It's window dressing. There are things the time could be better spent on. Time and resources are being spent on ambulation. That time and resources could be spent on other things.
ok
I want to leave my ship. Thats the functionality I want that this expansion brings. It does not make sense that I spend my entire life inside a ship,
where is the bathroom?
How do I reproduce?
In short, I want more Role Playing!
You're number 2. "I want" is a toddler's response. It's bread and circuses.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.08 18:34:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kurt Laundry
By reading your posts, i understand why YOU dont want this. YOU want instant gradification. All YOU care about is combat and the ability to do what you want RIGHT NOW. You pointed out THAT WE MUST WALK (not run) and that there is no instant travel and everything will just take longer.
My response, thank god. I like things to be slow.
You don't know what I want. I have never stated that I want any of these things you attribute to me. Do not speak for me.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.08 19:47:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Kurt Laundry
Its called deductive logic. Your entire point is that we don't need it and thus won't use it, and thus it is a waste.
Deductive logic or not thats not my position. You have the parts reversed.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.02.15 16:11:00 -
[75]
Edited by: B1FF on 15/02/2008 16:11:43
Originally by: Devanesc Although full ambulation will help with game immersion i personally am only looking forward to one aspect. Poker. If i can win isk, in game.... ooh how perfect would that be? Nothing like some good honest card playing to solve alliance stalemates, arguments and bank problems.
Poker would be great. But why force you to stop playing EvE so you can play poker? Allow us to play poker while mining, traveling, exploring, ratting, POS sieging, or any of the myriad other activities available.
Ambulation is not required for Poker.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 15:11:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Silvana Kor'ah
sure, but why would i actually sit still in a station bar when i could fly around and just join the bar's chat room?
This.
Everyone's reason for using ambulation is predicated on the fact that people will be using ambulation. It's a catch-22.
Currently you can socialize while playing EvE. With ambulation you have to stop playing EvE so you can only socialize.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 16:38:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Stitcher
Even if said manpower purpose-hired? It's not like they relocated anyone for this job, they hired a whole new team to do it with. That's not really a "waste" is it?
Please stop propagating this myth. There are a couple problems.
Resources from the live team will be used. Ambulation must be integrated. Do you use the new people from the other team to modify your server code or do you use the experienced people who have been working with it?
Also resources were spent by CCP on these new people. Those resources could have been spent on non-ambulation tasks.
Quote:
That's a bit like asking "why would I sit still in a bar when I could just walk around outside and call my friends on a mobile phone?". My guess? The bar's chat room is only available if you're in the bar.
I fail to see the point of a feature that removes you from the game.
Quote: Well... yes. Have feature, use feature.
No. Just because a feature is included does not mean people will use it. The current logic is that people will use it because people will use it. That's circular. There's no incentive.
Quote: And guess what? some of us, especially the crowd who post in the Intergalactic Summit, actually LIKE the idea of a game mode which is purely immersive.
Until you're playing the game from inside a fluid filled bubble immersion does not exist. Immersion is mental deficiency. We do not have the tech for immersion.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:18:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Stitcher
The rest of us, however, DO see the point, ARE excited about it, and DO consider it to be a valuable use of CCP's time, money, staff and resources. Unfortunately, we will never, no matter how eloquently and well we debate, be able to convince you of this, because your minds simply don't work that way.
No. You think you see the point. According to what has been published ambulation is a broken design. Please read the thread. It is quite literally nothing more than a 3d chat engine.
There is no reason to enter it other than to chat. When it is first launched it will be popular with tourists seeing the sights. Numbers will then decline as people realize there is nothing to do. After that it will only see limited use in hubs.
To "hang out" in a bar there needs to be people there. Currently we can "hang out" without being in the same in-game location. People make the assumption that those who they chat with now will be "hanging out" in ambulation with them. It's egotistical and misguided. Those people who chat with can be anywhere in EvE. Any where. That's the current system. People are no going to stop what they are doing and travel to a specific location, placing their plying on hold, to chat. They're going to say, "dude I'm 14 jumps out" || "I'm gate camping" || "I'm mining" || "I'm missioning".
tl;dr People are not going to drop what they are doing to travel to an arbitrary location when they can talk from where they are right now.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:41:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Stitcher
Yes, they are, actually. It doesn't have to make sense for them to do so, they'll do it anyway. Why?
It's called Roleplaying.
That's just not true. People can roleplay right now but they don't. Look at the people you talk with now and then check how many of them are docked in the same place you are. That is if you are docked.
You are describing an exception case.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 18:59:00 -
[80]
Originally by: MotherMoon
now if you were to run for CSM and prove other people agree then maybe you could change something but even then CCP would jsut step on you and your 1% of the playerbase support. as would the rest of the CSM because we see it as a great expansion in what is eve.
The CSM has no mandate. They were elected by 5% of the player base. Thus it's grossly inaccurate to describe them as representing the player base.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 19:11:00 -
[81]
Originally by: MotherMoon
actully it was 20% the 5% was the 5% rule on voting. And over 30% of the playebased voted on issues in the assemble hall.
and as CCP said anything done by the CSM and finished into the game will be noted in the patch notes as CSM. Thus players will get more into it every election.
Also by your logic seeing as only 25% of people usally vote for goverment leaders the real world system is broken too, but that is whole differen OOP thread.
That is a blatant lie. Please read the CSM Devblog
Total turn out: 11,8% Total votes cast: 222.422 Votes cast for the CSM winners: 12.678 % of votes cast for CSM winners: 5,6%
The existing CSM was voted for by 5,6% of the player base. Describing them as representing the player base is grossly inaccurate.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:28:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Stitcher
Really?
Tell that to Curatores Veritatis, Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris, The Ushra'Khan, Electus Matari, Strix Armaments and Defence, The Caldari Independent Navy Reserve, Lai Dai Infinity Systems, Duty., Naqam, Ghost Festival and Mixed Metaphor, to name but a handful.
Really. Traveling to same physical location to talk was described as roleplaying. I said that was already possible but no one did it and that ambulation would not change this. Do all these corps only talk when in the same physical location?
Quote: More to the point, why is it relevant? Ambulation was planned and put into production long before the CSM was elected.
I don't know. Ask the person who brought it up.
Quote:
I think our friend B1ff is just a curmudgeonly luddite, tbfh.
And we've devolved to personal attacks. Classy.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:31:00 -
[83]
Originally by: MotherMoon Tell you what Biff if your to lazy to use the systems CCP put in place for you. . .
So CCP didn't put the forum here for customers to talk about EvE? kieron describes this thread as a place to talk about Ambulation. That's what I'm doing.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Xavieer Naidoo
Wrong. You don't see the point. He does (and I do too...). That's just about it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Wrong. You don't see the point. Neither does he (and do you...). That's just about it. Nothing more and nothing less.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:34:00 -
[85]
Originally by: WarlockX
OR you could say they represent 100% of the players that care.
No you can't. That statement is predicated on the fallacy that anyone who didn't vote doesn't care. |
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:39:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Nito Musashi I want ambulation i like the idea of playing poker, hold'em or whatever when i dont feel like flying or during patch weeks when you take your life in your hands trying to anything in a ship.
Poker does not require ambulation. Why not create a poker app that can be played while traveling, camping, sieging, fueling, mining, ratting, missioning, or docked. Rather than one that can only be played while docked? |
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.06.30 20:47:00 -
[87]
Originally by: MotherMoon Still over 30% of all player accoubnt have been voting on CSM issues go check out the voting forum for yourself.
Please document this claim. |
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 14:00:00 -
[88]
Originally by: LordSwift Then dont use it then. jeez what is it going to make people realise this is going to be a optional feature. Just like premium and classic graphics. Also capsuleers do get out of there pods. Just read the novel or the fan fiction. This will change the way everyone does business and diplomacy. Cant wait
Why do you feel that way? Why do you think taking longer to do the same actions will 'change the way everyone does business and diplomacy.' How do you feel it will change business and diplomacy?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 14:48:00 -
[89]
Originally by: LordSwift Edited by: LordSwift on 03/07/2008 14:31:54 Edited by: LordSwift on 03/07/2008 14:30:58 Well i dont know exactly because i have not played it. I plan to at Fanfest this year for sure. But if you have watched the video, then we will have corp offices and a cool 3d map to plan things. People jump 20+ jumps all the time, why should it be faster. No one has any patience.
The game rocks and i am not going to stop playing for any reason. I think the way we just see our ship and chat to people in a chat box is that its a bit impersonal. Granted even in ambulation it still willbe something like speech bubbles or the same old chat box. But at least they are in front of you, reacting more or less.
And I get called the troll? At least I post reasons for my points. Thank you for acknowledging that you have no position. Most people aren't strong enough to do that.
I ask you this. What point is a map that you can't use in your ship? All pilots would be required to memorize everything? That's how it works currently. An ambulation only map is pointless.
The 3d planning map is cool and will be a great feature. However it doesn't require ambulation. In fact if resources weren't being spent on ambulation we may already have it.
What will be done in these corporate offices? How often do you use the office tab now?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 14:49:00 -
[90]
Originally by: clonkrieger Edited by: clonkrieger on 03/07/2008 14:38:21
Many new players to EVE are from games with easy targets, once you level, do all the things, you quit or move on :) I think those people that don't agree with Ambulation should actually post constructive reasons why (or don't post at all).
I've posted numerous reasons. Please feel free to respond to one of them.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.03 15:15:00 -
[91]
Originally by: LordSwift Well i was not expecting that responce. i am not trying to troll or whatever you mean. Yes i agree my comment was crap and i didnt think it through. But dont me ask me about what will be done in the corporate offices or with the 3d map. I dont know. Go ask a dev. Use your imagination! You cant compare how much i use the office tab to actually walking into the station office and interacting with things. We do sort of have a 3d map in game anyway
Why shouldn't I ask you about corporate offices and the map? You took the pro-ambulation stand and brought them up as reasons why.
You've hit the nail on the head in this post. Ambulation is fantasy. Everyone is using their imagination and guessing and hoping about what Ambulation is going to be. If you actually look into it you realize they've told us next to nothing.
Contrary to what many people here think I don't care if ambulation is canceled or not. My goal is to point out the sham and provoke discussion. The problem is the normal response I get is, "Well it will be cool." with no justification.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.07 15:56:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Pushtan Can i just say, having scanned through almost all of this lot...
B1FF - you know Ambulation is coming, you know its gonna be implemented, and you knows going to be used, so why troll the people who are phsyched about it? they want it, i want it.
I'm sorry I can't stop what I'm not doing. Next time please try and understand instead of scanning.
Quote: Cus heres the deal, barbera. Its OPTIONAL, therefore WHATEVER your post here is completely irreclevant...all those hours reading and typing - pointless.
This is exactly what makes ambulation pointless. It's all optional and meaningless. This is the broken design that you didn't pick up from your scanning. Next time please try and read and understand.
Quote:
And why? because you DONT HAVE TO USE IT....itll be a patch, just like FW, people will use it - enjoy it, and use it when they feel bored/waste some time after the inital period. Obviously RP'ers will get a great benefit from it, but all that crap about ''its nerfing what we already have'' is complete crap! You will still play the game exactly the same, and i suspect when people just need to do things, like dock, repair and undock again - theyre going to!!!
The optional nature is the flaw. They have two options. Either they make a ambulation a separate game or they nerf the existing game by forcing people into ambulation, and thus the added time.
Quote: You'll dock, rep, undock....not all the balls about 'dock, walk to rep station, engage it, wait, climb back in ship, undock'...jesus, you are overplaying the time aspect here...
No I'm not. CCP has explictly stated that you will have to walk and that there will be no running nor instant teleport to locations. That's neat a couple of times but it's a game and if you have two choices with identical outcomes but one takes less time the players are going to use the one that takes less time.
Quote: hell i dont even care if hes not watching the thread anymore...i just needed to show him his point is invalid, because WHATEVER he says - its NOT going to affect him, besides a patch day...plain and simple, thats undeniable like it or not...
I understand this. Please read the thread and learn that this is not my complaint. If you'd like to respond with something new I'd be more than happy to discuss it. Until then *plonk*.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.08 19:08:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Ultin Harvor
Actually they have 4 options; make it a seperate game, force you into it, do what they are doing or not do it. As they have chosen to make it an optional part of the game then that is probably the best one, as they are the Devs and it is their world, also it is the only one of its kind and they are not going to do anything that will mess it up.
That doesn't make any sense. The only people who are capable of messing up the game are the devs. Do you think bad code and bad design gets put in by the bad hackers? To think that the devs would never make a poor choice is insane.
Regardless, I've never claimed that Ambulation will "mess up" the game.
Quote:
You are also assuming that people always take the quicker way to do things, that is not the case. There are endless RP'ers out there who would probably go and see the ship being repaired or actually go into an agents office. I do not consider myself a serious RP'er yet even I would go into an Agents office every time to accept a mission. But this is a pointless topic of discussion as it has been said time and time again that CCP will NOT replace any existing functionality.
Yes that's exactly what I'm assuming. It's basic human nature. You may take the long way at first but the novelty will wear off and you will take the short way.
The RPers are not endless. They are a minority. Second off RP does not mean stupid. Right now RPers can and do talk to each other from anywhere. They're not going to stop doing that. They're not going to start disrupting their normal behavior to spend time traveling so they talk with avatars. At best they'll use it for special events. RPs are the exception case.
Quote:
Oh and the reason that, occording to you, no one is coming up with anything new is that people are being very patiant with your narrow-mindedness and are trying to explain why it is not a broken design. People will use it, even if not straight away, because CCP will expand on it. The whole point of expansions is to expand the world, which they are doing and very successfully so in my opinion (and most peoples otherwise they would have left).
You say these things but they're just not true. Look here's the deal. Every single thing we know about ambulation falls under one of three categories.
Useful features that don't require and would in fact be better if accessible outside ambulation: 3D map Poker
Things that take longer: Walking to an agent, repair, etc.
Things that only matter in ambulation: Playing dress up. (Why not let us play dress up with ships?) Hanging out in a bar.
Everyone touts the last one on the list. Hanging out. Which is really the most outlandish reason. Apart from the hubs there won't be people to hang out with. Hanging out in ambulation requires people to spend time to limit them selves to one location and limited actions. They must then spend time to make them selves mobile and able to partake in many actions again. All this in order to chat. Chatting is something that you can currently do while doing anything else. The "hanging out" everyone mentions is chat while doing nothing else.
The docked same station requirement is the killer. To hang out with your friend they have to stop what ever activities they are doing, travel, dock, walk and then chat. I see it going something like this.
A:Hey you should come to station_name and we can hang out and talk B:I'm X jumps out in the middle of activity_name. A:Yeah but we can hang out and talk. B:Umm aren't we talking right now?
No one has been able to explain yet where these people to hang out with are going to come from. Why are people going to stop all activity to limit themselves to chatting with you?
At best I see it as a bullet point on the web page to attract people. People who will them complain that there's nothing to do in ambulation. Hopefully the info from fanfest will change things.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.08 19:11:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Psychotic Penguin
sure the dev time could be used for more important things but what you and a lot of other people are missing is that this is a sort of test for another game ccp is developing if ambulation was not being made for eve those same devs would NOT be developing important stuff for eve they would still be on that other game.
What you are missing is the previous 42 pages. The idea that ambulation will not consume resources is nonsensical. This has been covered already. Integration and ongoing deleopment of ambulation are not going to consume resources?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.08 19:13:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Pohbis
90% of EVE happens outside of battles. A big chunk of that in stations, tied to your hangar. I for one would like to jump in and play a round of ISK poker with my buddies, instead of idling around and logout bored when nothing is going on.
Are you buddies to stop all activity and travel to your location to play poker with you?
Why not allow poker to be played anywhere at anytime?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 10:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: ZephyrLexx
Personally looking forward to mostly walking around my own ship,I hope each ships interior is vastly different, and we can explore a lot of it, for example.. checking out the drone bays on a Carrier? seeing all those fighters lined up in the docking clamps ready to shoot out D:
How about checking out the services on stations? walking into a cloning room area with all the clones floating in glass jars, or the fitting room with cranes and robotic arms putting peices on your ship etc, fun!
Yes that will be neat. Once or twice. After that it's simply a waste of resources.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 10:26:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Ira Astrum uhhhhh, just throwing this one out there B1FF.. Surely the idea of this is to pull the player away from the sensation that their character ingame is merely whichever ship they're flying, rather than an actualy represented 'person' ?
How is it going to do that? There's no incentive to enter ambulation and see your character as a person.
Quote:
adding more depth of interaction and character development cannot possibly be a bad thing.
This is true but what character development are you referring to? How will there be more interaction?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 10:29:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Stitcher
Do us all a favour and shut up about it.
Seriously, please click on that little sucker instead of adding an extra post every time you spot something you want to add. It helps keep the place neat and tidy.
When you're a mod you can tell me how to use the forums. Until then pull up your panties and deal with it. If you don't like the thread don't read it.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:10:00 -
[99]
For those that keep calling me a troll please see the previous posts. Those are trolls. You may disagree with me but that doesn't make me a troll and that doesn't mean I have to stop posting. If you don't like what I'm saying then don't read what I'm saying. It's very simple.
For those of you too ******* stupid to realize it I'm on your side.
Ambulation is broken. Ambulation will be added. Why add a broken feature? Now maybe this will change when the super secret new fanfest info comes out but as it stands there is no design, thus no game, thus no reason to use it. Stop being distracted by the giant flame spewing head and look behind the curtain.
I'm pointing out the problems in hopes that the resources spent on ambulation will not be a complete waste. That I won't have to see posts from people going ambulation sucks theres nothing to do in it! The same people who are currently posting saying that ambulation will rock the game but can't provide a reason other than the mythical "hanging out" and the mentally unstable concept of immersion. The people who rather than talk about the problem yell "troll" and "stop posting". The internet equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.
I hope that even if this forum is incapable of discussion that there is something more to Eris than the marketing nothing speak they've shown in this thread. That someone is reading and understands the problems.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:11:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Valron Xizor I have a question. Not sure if it will be answered in this UBER long thread, but when ambulation hits, will we all have the opportunity to create new character portaits?
Will we be able to make a new avatar or will it be automatically generated based on the properties selected when creating our character faces on usingt he existing system??
I believe you will be able to create a new avatar/portrait.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:21:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Ultin Harvor
Well first off, you yourself said that people will do it at least once. Then they will most likely look at the avatar and think, 'Huh, so that's me is it? Wow im not a few pieces of metal welded together afterall!' Then you are pulled away from the feeling that you are a ship, rather than someone piloting a ship,
Well the idea behind the whole pod thing is that you are the ship. But I'm wandering to close to the RP/game mechanic line.
Yes I did say that. And what did I say after that? That they wouldn't come back because walking around looking is all there is to do.
Originally by: B1FF
There is some rather neat videos on TenTonHammer regarding character stuffs.
Well the animations alone will allow fore more interaction; especially the ones where you encouter someone you have negative/positive standings towards. Your character will do something....don't ask me what yet as Ambulation isn't out yet.
Please explain what character development you are referring to in those videos.
So you're pro-ambulation for some reason but you don't know what? This is exactly the problem I've been trying to point out. Every time I press people they give this I don't know it's not out answer. That's my ******* point. You're not looking at it. You're being all "OMG poniez!" about what you think it will be and ignoring what they've told you it will be.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 12:32:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Roc Wieler
Mentally unstable stands out to me here. I have played MMOs. Some good. Some bad. All of them had avatars. Something I have learned about players is that developer content can never match player demand. Players eat through content so quickly, and often take a hiatus until the next content comes.
So for the vast majority of MMOers that don't quit inbetween content patches? They sit around and chat with friends. To say that is mentally unstable is really narrow of you. Seriously. Communities are grown on the strength of this very interaction.
So do they take a hiatus or "don't quit". I'm unclear on that point. Which is it?
So in these games you played once you completed all the content you parked yourself in town and didn't do anything except chat. And you only chatted with people who were standing next to you? I doubt that. You still went around a did things. Helped people with quests, ground cash, etc. Your chat was primarily done with global chat channels.
None of these things are analogous with ambulation. To interact with another player in ambulation you must dock at the same station and give up the ability to partake in most activities. Or you could do _anything_ and keep chatting with the current system.
You don't understand what I mean by my mentally unstable comment. Please read the thread.
Quote: I think Ambulation is a step in the right direction personally.
Why? Why do you feel people will limit the possible activities to use a 3d chat interface?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 17:15:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Richtor Mettle
I'm just curious as to what inside information you have to state the fact that it is broken? So far all I've read are your personal opinions on how thing could be (forum search FTL). I haven't seen any information from the Dev's from any of the videos that said how it WILL be in a completely definitive sense.
You have pointed out what you see as problems. Your opinions. Duly noted and respected. Now please respect my opinion. I am looking forward to it. Why? Because *I* think it will be fun. I don't feel the need to justify myself on why I am looking forward to this, nor should I.
I'll even go so far as to concede that it is possible that some of the potential features could become boring very quickly to some, but I don't think that even if CCP took 10 years to get it "right" we wouldn't hear some forum whining about something. Either way, those who are looking forward to this really don't need to explain to anyone why they feel that way, and you are free to keep asking for explanations and commenting about your opinions. So we are all happy right?
I don't think that word means what you think it means or you've been watching The Dude too much. Leaders are elected to office on opinion. Judges and juries determine innocence and guilt based on opinion. Life and death is decided on opinion. The world runs on opinion. From the meaningless, what should I wear today, to the major, should we invade that country?
I've reviewed what CCP has said on ambulation. I've thought about it. I've come to conclusions. I made an opinion and gave my reasoning for it. If you want to dismiss it out of hand then you'll receive the same amount respect in return.
If you can't back up your position then it's meaningless to me. I have no obligation to respect it. As far as I know you are incapable of intelligent thought and flipped a coin to decide if you liked it or not.
I ask you this. How can you factually determine if something is broken or not? Good design or bad. If that were possible then every game would be perfect.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.09 17:22:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: CCP t0rfiFrans Edited by: t0rfiFrans on 16/03/2007 10:22:12 Edited by: t0rfiFrans on 16/03/2007 10:20:40 ... 6. We plan to release a proper trailer in a few months time. Yes I know, we're secretive bastards, but that's the cold brutal reality of life, I guess.
This was way over a year ago. About time for some progress update and maybe a "proper trailer"?
Yes ******* please.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.16 16:32:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Sara Parker
Ambulation will allow those who are interested in more immersive RP to expand their game play styles through new levels of social interraction.
Surely those that aren't interested in playing EVE in that way should be thankful that ambulation will be optional, rather than bashing it as pointless for that very fact?
*sigh* I'll try again to explain it.
Social interaction is good. Social interaction requires people to interact with. With current social interaction in EVE you can interact with anyone, anywhere, anytime. Ambulation social interaction will only work with people who are in your same station and in ambulation. Over the next week look at where the people you're chatting with are. Are you docked? Are they docked? At the same station? If any of these answers is no then you can't use ambulation social interaction.
So the alternatives are talk or stop what you are doing and travel to your friends physical location and talk with animations. People will not stop doing things just to be able to watch a hand wave. That's the broken part.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.16 16:36:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Mia Archer you talk about respecting other peoples opinoins but you have NO respect for anyone elses
I don't have to respect anyones opinion if I don't want to. I don't know where the nonsensical idea that I have to came from. I'm allowed to criticize any opinion I want. Do you have something to say that's relevant to the thread or are you just here to attack me?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.17 14:42:00 -
[107]
Edited by: B1FF on 17/07/2008 14:44:45
Originally by: MotherMoon
you demand respect right?
No. In no way do I demand respect.
I have also not attacked anyone. Please learn the difference between ideas and people.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 15:20:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Daemeon Fyral
sure not everyone will use it, sure it may be only the roleplayers who ambulate. but just because not everyone and their dog makes use of something doesn't mean it shouldnt' be implemented. for example i think it was mentioned that only 10% or something like that of eves population lives out in 0.0 ...
Bad example. 0.0 is used indirectly by anyone who uses T2 gear. With POS and moon mining there is use for 0.0 and these things are moved to high sec where even carebears use the results of 0.0. But this is not the case with ambu. It is a separate product effectively. No overlap and no incentive.
So rather than talking in corp chat so everyone can participate you're going to exclude those that choose not to ambu?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 15:44:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Robrina Brun
Ad Hominem attack, I know... but I calls it as I sees it.
At least you admit it. Yet you call me a troll.
I've stated my reasoning. Please read it.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 16:34:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Robrina Brun
Okay, let me summarize the reasoning I've read. Tell me if I mess it up.
If Tactical maps can only be viewed outside of ambulation, they will not be used as much; but ambulation will still not be used.
I'm not sure what you mean by this one. A tactical map would be great and used a lot provided it can be used outside ambu. A map that you can't use to get to your destination is broken.
My point about the map and poker are that they are great features that should not be nerfed by being ambu only. There is no technical nore design reason to make them ambu only.
Quote:
Are we noticing the trend here? The basic conclusion that ambulation will not be used. Some of the same sorts of arguments were used against Factional Warfare.
What trend? What did I say about Factional Warfare?
Quote: I think we've both seen what a 'limited audience' upgrade results in. More people having fun. Ambulation might not appeal to the hard core UT in space crowd. But for those of us who aren't all about destroying things. Those of us who enjoy building things just might like this expansion.
You fail to address the problems that are specific to the non hard core UT group. There's no hook. No game mechanic. There's no incentive. What keeps people there after the shiney and new wears off? Especially with the limitations.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 16:35:00 -
[111]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
In the same way parts of Ambulation will be tied to the rest of eve in the same indirect manner.
I read your point in another post regarding your concern that not enough people will be in the same station. I think this is a valid point, but I wouldn't call it a flaw just yet. We expect some people might be willing to travel a few jumps if there is a new hotspot in the system, now a lot of design is based on what we expect people will enjoy, having expectations doesn't make a design flawed immediately.
That's not possible with what you've said to date. I know the answer is fanfest but can you expound on this?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 16:56:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Manufacturing.
So exactly the same way as T2? I think you over estimate the size of peoples closets.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.30 17:24:00 -
[113]
Edited by: B1FF on 30/07/2008 17:26:38
Originally by: Robrina Brun
But, then you might turn around and say that because it isn't in ambulation, it cannot be used as a draw for Ambulation. A non-issue as it were.
You are correct. Something that is not in ambulation cannot be a draw for ambulation. I'm missing something. What point are you trying to make?
Quote:
Some individuals declared that Factional warfare would fail because the limitations would preven them from participating. The initial response so far has proved that to be false, at least on the Gallente vs Caldari front.
I still don't see your point.
So because someone somewhere said something bad about something which turned out to not be true I'm not allowed to say anything bad about something completely unrelated?
That's completely nonsensical.
Quote:
Also, were my other summerizations correct? I want to make sure of that so I can pick at them just a little.
Overly sensational but on target yes.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:33:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Robrina Brun
Unrelated? The parallels are glaring (to me at least.)
[Faulty Logic Snipped]
Ummm. Wow. Logic doesn't work that.
Quote:
CCP is not in this to 'fail.' They are a company of people who want to make money, and opportunities for their customers in the process. We do not know all, or even most of the specifics of ambulation.
So what if they're not in this to fail? They're not perfect. They can, have, and will again make wrong choices. Intent is distinct from result.
Quote: To the combat only crowd, ambulation must look quite useless. It doesn't facilitate more yarr, or pew-pew, or whatever their flavor of PvP is. I'm going to go out on a limb here and put you in this group. Ambulation does not appeal to you.
As stated before. Many times. I am not against ambulation. I see flaws. I point them out. Rather than acknowledge and address people yell at me and call me names. I am against putting features that would be more beneficial if usable anywhere, ambu or not ambu, than in ambu alone.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia
Originally by: B1FF
That's not possible with what you've said to date. I know the answer is fanfest but can you expound on this?
Manufacturing.
So I was thinking more on this. For it to be like my T2 example items would have to be produced by ambu users but usable outside ambu by people who never enter ambu. I'm not asking for specifics but is that correct or were you refering to clothing and furniture?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 14:44:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Dionisius
Will the bars have real bartenders, like players that would like to socialized in that way?
Maybe. My guess is yes but they haven't given us specifics.
Can we have traders? Clothes , for the our avatars, musicians, material sellers etc?
Yes on clothes, traders, and material sellers.
All your other questions are no.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 16:26:00 -
[117]
Edited by: B1FF on 31/07/2008 16:26:56
Originally by: Robrina Brun Edited by: Robrina Brun on 31/07/2008 15:07:59 I guess the big thing that hits me is your overall attitude about it. You seem to look down your nose at people having ideas, suggestions, and questions. If someone asks a question in the other thread, your response seems to imply a negative response. A 'no' if you will.
Ambulation is built on wishful thinking. People are constantly saying they want it because of <some reason CCP has never mentioned>. The only possible response to that is negative. Also frankly I'm insulted. Look at the posts contrary to mine. I'll let the record stand on who's been negative.
Quote: Saying "They have not mentioned such a thing." implies that they haven't, and the won't; even if it doesn't say the same. Replying in a different spirit such as, "They haven't mentioned anything on that yet, but Eris might be able to shed some light on it." would seem to have a better outlook.
Don't put words in my mouth. It means "CCP has not mentioned that." This is a very specific sentence with a distinct meaning. Anything you add to it _you_ add to it. Not me. If people want a response from Eris they can ask Eris for one.
Quote: There is the attempt to give the appearance of neutrality, but the overall attitude is very negative. If questioned about a response, you can fall back and say "I didn't say no, I didn't attack them or their idea." But the implication of your response was to garner a defensive move on the one asking the question.
I don't know what you point is here. I've clearly stated my agenda. Many times.
Quote:
Some of your criticisms are well placed, I'll agree on that point. The main issue I'm having is the spirit in which you bring those criticisms forward.
It should be "Tactical maps look cool, will those be available to us during fleet combat?" not "I hope I won't need to interact with ambulation to use Tactical maps. If I do, that would be forced interaction."
No it shouldn't be. I'm not passive in that manner. Also the two versions do not convey the same information.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.07.31 21:49:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ruze
There's very little information out about it. Those of us who are excited are making all kinds of wishful thinking and assumptions, building up steam and imagining ways that Ambulation could be so very interesting, useful and cool. You might fault us for it, but every quote taken from a dev will continue to be broken down, analyzed, and have suppositions made about it.
This is literally self delusion. You admit that you are getting excited about things that CCP has never said they will put in the game. That's not being pro-ambulation. That's being pro-make believe.
Quote: So I ask, what is your contribution to this? Do you really believe your comments are perfectly neutral? If you think it will fail (as you HAVE stated), why not throw and idea or two out about how it can succeed? Not all daydreaming is fruitless, you know. In the corporate world, they have another name, and it's called 'brainstorming.'
In no way do I believe my comments to be neutral. I have an agenda that I've clearly stated on multiple occasions. I've given out ideas. To expand the vid phones thing I mentioned would have the benefit of avatars without the scope limitations of ambu. There are UI problems though. Why do I focus on the problems? Why not? That's the glorious thing about free will. We're all free to do what we want. I'll even give you a new one. Constellation wide stations/bars or at least system wide. Anyone entering ambu from that const/system ends up in the same instance. Make something up about holograms. That will help with there actually being someone in ambu for you to interact with.
Quote:
[Personal Attack Snipped]
Again. I have an agenda. I have stated it in small words multiple times.
Quote: All I want to know is, what USE do you gain from trolling these boards and offering doomsday prophecies? Does it make you feel better inside? Do you honestly think your the only one to see the downsides of a system balanced so precariously between usefullness and uselessness? Are you really so presumptuous to think that your particular viewpoint is unique, that you are the shining snowflake like no other?
Saying something that you don't like is not trolling. What use do I gain? Again. I've stated my agenda multiple times. I'm not the only one who sees the downsides. Eris has posted that she sees the same issue but she thinks the tree will fall east and I think it will fall west. People often come up with different conclusions when presented with the same info. It's one of the magical things about us.
Quote: Hmm. More ideas need to come out of this. And we need a forum block feature. Help the devs accomplish the goal, I say. Make ambulation useful, make it desirable, and make it mandatory to use it in order to reap the rewards. Otherwise, even people like B1FF can see where it will go if you don't.
I would love a forum block feature. Thinking the devs are infallible does not help them. "The devs won't let the game fail" is disproved by the fact that games fail. You seem to think that no good can come of point out the problems in things. That's just not true. They can't make it mandatory unless they add instant transport. That's just mean.
They want people to stop playing and socialize but they offer no reason to. Look at Gemstone and Dragon Realms. The wound, healing, loot, and experience game mechanics were all geared toward encouraging socialization. SWG combat mechs were the same way. These game do/did have great social centers. In AC _everyone_ was in a guild/corp. Again specifically because the game mechanics encouraged it. Games that have great social were designed to have them. Just adding avatars and emotes won't do anything without a hook. |
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 13:15:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Yargan Rasaan
One point (made by B1FF, I think) actually does concern me. Ambu being on a different server with the impossibility of speaking with persons outside. Since i can't be bothered to file through the whole thread, can anyone please enlighten me on this?
Normal chat channels are not going away. The problem is that a station is the smallest possible subset of people in the game. With the current system we can interact socially with anyone anywhere anytime. So are you going to talk to the handful that are docked where you are _and_ in ambu or are you going to talk to your corp?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 16:34:00 -
[120]
Originally by: The Fugly
And again, ambulation will have it's own server, so no extra lag to the grid. Please read before you start trolling around.
And again, CCP has never said this. Please read before you start trolling around.
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 16:44:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Ruze
I'm also a huge supporter of having the things released for Ambulation require a user to 'ambulate' in order to use. CCP can't walk the line of keeping ambulation completely optional, and having it be useful. If that is the case, then some of the naysayers are exactly right, and it'll just be a rarely used social tool. But if you HAVE to get out of your ship to edit the tactical map, and if you HAVE to get out of your ship to use an in-game EFT or EvEMon?
I agree with you on the important parts. The optional and no game mechanics are a large part of what makes it broken. But it has to be meaningful. Everyone would love a way of saving fittings so you can just click load fitting: Mining, load fitting: Camping, or what ever and it will fit the ship provided you have the modules in the hanger. Shattered Galaxy had this and it rocked. However making such a feature ambu only is petty. Nothing is made better by having people use it in ambu only. The feature is exactly the same except it takes longer to use. That's bad design. Period.
As for the map that has to be used outside of ambu. What's the point of mocking up a map with a plan and then not being able to take said plan with you while you execute it!?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 17:45:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Ruze
Actually, B1FF, if you would please read through the posts under the 'questions for Eris' thread, CCP HAS said this. I'm not going to quote it for you, cause I'm a lazy bum, but it is one of the things that has been announced. Ambulation will be on it's own server grid. This is the main reason we won't have 'windows' to see local traffic.
Really. You should go read them. From the first link, "In-station servers will be seperate from the space servers, so there will be little (if any) lag introduced into the other environment." The second link is addressed to people concerned about lag but makes no mention of lag just that ambu is optional. The third link says, "Station environments will most likely be hosted on a different server than the ones that handle space. We do not want to add lag to space."
No where does it say no lag. Minimal yes but everyone loves their rose colored glasses here.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 17:48:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Ruze
CCP hasn't said anything (while very often, Lui Kai has pulled up the EXACT quote or video where CCP 'said something')
At which point I've pointed out that the link doesn't actually say that. Then Lui never responds. Please see the exchange about features announced at launch time. Eris later directly contradicts Lui.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.01 17:49:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Ruze
But any possible use we've suggested for Ambulation, you've argued it needs to be available outside. And then you argue that if theres no REASON to use ambulation, there's no reason for ambulation to be there at all.
What do you suggest then? What do YOU think could be added to Ambulation, that will be NEEDED and useful, but cannot be replicated while in-ship? Please share your ideas. You've given us plenty of opinions on why you think it will fail. So what do you think can be done to make it succeed?
Already done this. I can think of two things. You've chosen to ignore them.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 17:05:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Big Trader
What? No, you still get your "Alliance" channel, you still get your "Corp" channel, you still get all your other normal channels like usual. What might change is that instead of speaking in "local" that goes star system-wide, it becomes more of a "Everyone on station" sort of local.
The chat channels are already on a 'seperate' server, somewhat. B1FF just likes to spin things to look worse than they really are.
Please show me where I said chat channels were going away.
The point I'm trying to illustrate is: You won't be using ambu nearly as much as you think you will due to the fact that existing communication is vastly superior.
A station is the smallest possible pool of people to communicate to. Alliance and/or corp is the largest. Any interaction you do in ambulation is only visible by people in ambu at your current station. Any interaction you do in corp/alliance channel is visible by everyone in the corp/alliance. If you're in ambu with 3 corp mates and you say something 4 people can see it and respond. If you say that same thing in corp then everyone in the corp can see it and respond. Thus you're going to be talking in corp. Add in the fact that you also limit your possible actions and there's no incentive to use it.
The idea that you have more or better social interaction by limiting your audience is what is broken about ambu and why I say people won't use it. A social person is not going to make use of something that limits their ability to be social. Their interaction will be in corp or alliance or their rp channel or blueprints or any other place you interact currently.
tl;dr You don't get better social interaction by limiting your audience and what you can do while interacting with them.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 17:20:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Robrina Brun I'm not sure, but we might be talking to a sockpuppet.. anyways.
As far as I can see, amongst the ambulation features that have been announced (but not confirmed), the only one that makes any sense to be used while "In Pod" is the Tactical Map. Of course, little IC reasons can be made to prevent it from being edited while in the field.
Gambling and mini-games seem out of place as part of a combat vessels computer software compliment. You don't want G'narg, the Navigation slave playing dice instead of keeping the sensors properly aligned.
The rest: housing, bars, deeper character customization; are decidedly ambulation based. And, as far as that one special dress costing more than a battleship. We are the social elite of the EvE universe, 1 isk is enough to feed a family of four for a year, probably several. Of course we're going to be buying clothing that is insanely expensive.
Game fiction justification for features is fail. You design the features and then alter the fiction to match. It's called fiction for a reason.
There's no reason for poker in a pod? Game Mechanic: If you allow people to play poker in ship then you have a larger audience for poker. Larger audience means larger chance of finding people to play against thus more people using the feature. You also get the funny situations like yelling at your tackler cause they missed a grab due to an intense hand. Funny things like that are what we look back on fondly. That's social interaction.
Game Fiction: The Caldari Gaming Commision (CGC) is proud to announce a new plugin for pod software that allows poker to be piggy backed over the current communication system. That means that you can now play poker on CGC sanctioned tables from anywhere. Some suspect that this move by the CGC is an attempt to create a new revue source to help offset the increased costs of the war between the empires as part of a secret deal brokered with the Caldari State in regards to the fraud investigation from earlier this year. When asked for comment CGC spokesperson Dave Cassel said, "We're merely providing a requested product to the widest possible user base. That's what we're in business to do. Any rumors of war funding are simply rumors."
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 17:31:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ruze Me, personally? I don't like using EvE as an instant messenger. Getting out and talking with someone, digitally face-to-face, isn't going to be a hassle. I even prefer it to sending tells or talking in an open channel in other games.
But will it be a hassle for your friend? You're going to talk to your friend, with one of the existing methods, and ask them to stop what they are doing and travel to your location so they can talk to you while excluding others in your social group who may be able to contribute to the interaction?
That's some how better than just talking to them. You know through that method you used to ask them to come talk to you. That makes no sense.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2008.08.04 21:13:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Ruze Me, personally? I don't like using EvE as an instant messenger. Getting out and talking with someone, digitally face-to-face, isn't going to be a hassle. I even prefer it to sending tells or talking in an open channel in other games.
The face is fake and the words are real. You're putting more value into the impersonal.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2009.04.30 16:53:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Wubinator
Originally by: Ruze
Originally by: Crystal Six 50+ pages? Yikes! In case these ideas haven't been thrown in there, here's a couple (if they have been, just consider me seconding them! ;) )
Every button you can currently click on in the station screen (repair, insurance, medical, bounty office, agents, etc, perhaps even hangar) should be places you need to travel to within the station to interact with them. These areas would be in addition to new areas, like the bar. Maybe some agents would be found IN the bar, depending on the time perhaps.
The game's realism should carry into station ambulation. Nail down those mechanics in stations and develop those mechanics so that eventually, people would be able to enter structures other than stations.
I agree. Don't change the way it can be done sitting in ship at the moment, just add it in.
I disagree, they always said that the people that do not want to use Ambulation will not be affected by it. When you force people to walk around to get an agent mission or find a repairshop that rule has been thrown out the door.
They should not at all change much ... just add new things people can do if they want to do that.
Which is kind of nonsensical. When offered two ways to do something with the exact same end result, a quick way or a long way, people are going to pick the quick way.
Sure the long way will be fun for novelty sake a handful of times but people will revert to the quick way.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2009.04.30 16:56:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Spartus Raile
Originally by: Aricaan Funny thing for me is I hang out in low pop systems, which means the stations are going to be empty!
Stations will have AI characters running around, and hopefully your corp will be joining you for meetings/drinking sessions/gambling. :)
That's a very selfish view. I'm glad you're not in my corp.
With the current system I can talk to you from anywhere. With what you suggest I have to travel to your location and stop playing EvE and start playing 3D IRC to participate in the conversation.
Why do you feel the need to exclude so many of your corp mates?
|
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2009.04.30 16:58:00 -
[131]
Edited by: B1FF on 30/04/2009 16:59:53
Originally by: Kyuudousha Used to play this game, some years ago.. 2005 or 2004, don't recall exactly. Except for there being a lot more ship types and suchlike not all that much has changed really so I was quite pleased when I heard about "ambulation" One of the biggest "holes" in Eve is social interaction, just not the same thing if you can't meet face to face. But also... it instantly occurred to me that they should take it a step further. Why limit it to stations? there are mines, road houses, labs, slave camps that we should be able to enter.. or board.. maybe even other ships! It could be to meet friends on the bridge of their ship. Enter a roadhouse to meet with mercs or just have a beer and listen to the band, a slave pen to buy slaves... And it could be made into alternative ways to solve missions. Instead of blowing up that damn habitat, board it and fight your way through to the boss infps style.
EVE is STILL a rather empty place in spite of it all.
AFK do you only deal with your friends face to face? You don't email, text, phone, write letters to them? What about the one's not at your present location?
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2009.04.30 20:54:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Alora Venoda Edited by: Alora Venoda on 30/04/2009 19:13:08 there is a lot of potential for new kinds of agent missions inside stations...
detective missions - talk to different NPCs to get clues and track down an NPC or item (maybe even within a system or constellation). once found, interact with it to complete the objective.
meeting - meet a specific NPC in a specific place in a specific station, and possibly give or collect items.
delivery/pickup - drop off or pickup an item at a specific place inside a station.
recruiting - talk to different NPCs to recruit them (ie- gather up the homeless laying about), and then bring them back to your agent.
and then if they add special stations at exploration sites or mission complexes, you could go inside to meet with some NPC or complete some objective...
or what if you could go inside those casino modules you sometimes see floating around?
Based on existing DEV commens this will not happen.
|
B1FF
|
Posted - 2009.04.30 21:05:00 -
[133]
Quote: Sometimes the quick way is stopping by that particular service on your way out.
That's still the long way. Loading ambu takes longer than hitting the button. Additionally CCP is on record as stating you will have to walk everywhere. So there's the transit time. Same end result. More time. More work.
Quote: And you're adding a little more complexity for a much more interesting environment. I don't see it as trouble. Sure people will do most of that in their ships but it will make the inside of a station much more useful and fun to explore.
Once you've walked through a station once it is no longer exploring. Since there's no game mechanic what point is there to walking once you've explored? I don't dispute the oooo shiney factor but what's the point once that wears off? When offerend the choice of spending 10 seconds or 3 minutes for the exact same end result you're going to choose 10 seconds.
Quote: I hate it when content is there that you can't interact with.
Umm you realize that is the vast majority of _any_ game world. You hate all back plot.
|
|
|
|