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Thargat Caldari North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.05 02:05:00 - [841] Will my char look all drugged up and crazy when I'm tripping on those illegal boosters? There's only one sig that matters... and that's Radius.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.05 02:38:00 - [842] Originally by: B1FF Originally by: Lord Evangelian I have realized Lord Evangelian is trolling with epic proportions, he is disguising his trolls as valid argument. An argument is the disagreement of an existing point resulting in the weighing up of the pros and cons for each stimuli until a resolution is found. Lord Evangelian is saying he is arguing the idea that ambulations is warranted and is not a waste of time. Ok, but this is his opinion. He has made his statement, so it is up to other people to argue against it. This is where I am at annoyed at Lord Evangelian, because he is saying how other people will/will not enjoy the add-on to the game. He is also assuming that his thesis is 100% correct. It cannot be proven correct because it hasn't happened yet, if anything his statements are purely theoretical and hypothetical, so cannot been seen with the amount of credit and authority that he believes them to be valued. There I fixed that for you. If I'm a troll then you and all the pro-ambulation people are also trolls. I repeat yet again. I am not trolling. I see a huge design flaw and am trying to provoke discussion on it. Even though I raise valid points the main response I receive is, "Shut the ** up troll. Ambulation is cool." I feel these responses further prove my point. If Ambulation really was all that then you would be able to dismantle my points. Instead I get this ** about it being my opinion. Yeah it's my opinion. I wrote it how could it not be? The idea that it's just my opinion and not valid is nonsensical. If everything I say can some how be invalidated by "It's your opinion." then everything you say is "your opinion" and thus equally invalid and meaningless. I believe you think you will use ambulation. I also beleive you're wrong. The only argument I've seen for ambulation is that people have a hard time talking to others when all they have is a picture and text to relate to. These are the same people who on a daily basis make use of email, myspace, facebook, texting, IRC, and/or IM. In the real world they make extensive use of socialization technologies that have the exact same or less visual rep as what they are complaining about in EvE in their pro-ambulation arguments. People will not stop playing the game to use full body chat. wait... you believe that we are wrong that we want it? anyways you continue to think that everyone BUT you is a troll. do you really believe that everyone BUT YOU is trolling?
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.05 02:54:00 - [843] Will we have to redesign our avatars again? I hope, IF we do have to that we'll have as much (or more) options to choose from than the current EVE char creater. IMO Eve's avatar maker is the best in any game to date as you can really make yourself look unique, I hope they stick with that and not just have generic WoW skins or something where there's only 4-5 different looks
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.02.05 10:43:00 - [844] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Will we have to redesign our avatars again? I hope, IF we do have to that we'll have as much (or more) options to choose from than the current EVE char creater. IMO Eve's avatar maker is the best in any game to date as you can really make yourself look unique, I hope they stick with that and not just have generic WoW skins or something where there's only 4-5 different looks Speaking of which will it be possible to discriminate in certain establishments? A 'No Lawnchairs Allowed' sign outside or simply having bouncers toss any Achura they come across? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Daraasi Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.02.05 12:05:00 - [845] OK, this isn't exactly on topic, but its not way off topic. The Eve chronicles often a clearly talk about the people who crew a ship, but do at no point mention [to my knowledge] anyone other than the capsuleer in a capsule ship. The boosters in game also talk about diminishing discomfort from applying shields and concentrating on targetting and so on. Which does not imply a crew. Capsuleer ships could not be more than ordinary ships with the pod stuck in but there's nothing to say that they have any other crew. Jovia Delenda Est.
WowZilla The Leeroy Jenkins Project	Posted - 2008.02.05 12:23:00 - [846] Originally by: Daraasi OK, this isn't exactly on topic, but its not way off topic. The Eve chronicles often a clearly talk about the people who crew a ship, but do at no point mention [to my knowledge] anyone other than the capsuleer in a capsule ship. The boosters in game also talk about diminishing discomfort from applying shields and concentrating on targetting and so on. Which does not imply a crew. Capsuleer ships could not be more than ordinary ships with the pod stuck in but there's nothing to say that they have any other crew. Devs have stated ships have crews, ecxept for shuttles and most frigates. The pod pilot jacks into the central ship computer to control it all. Its in the eve DB,If you have evemon, check the stats for ships. There is an entry for crew size. anyone who states otherwise is ignorant of facts. ______________________ I am the worst poaster
Daraasi Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.02.05 16:29:00 - [847] Originally by: WowZilla Devs have stated ships have crews, ecxept for shuttles and most frigates. The pod pilot jacks into the central ship computer to control it all. Its in the eve DB,If you have evemon, check the stats for ships. There is an entry for crew size. anyone who states otherwise is ignorant of facts. Quite simply then capsuleer crews are hugely useless. They arnt paid so i imagine they must spend their time whislst the ship is in space and the capsuleer is doing all the work producing crochet or something. Boosters affect the capsuleer and they cover every facet of spaceship command implying a direct and total interface with all control, rendering a crew pointless. On non-capsule ships the crews run into the many thousands and are the subject of the greater part of the chronicles which never once mention crew aboard capsule ships. If capsuleer ships are crewed, then that rather diminishes the demigod status of the capsuleer, who is always refered to as being alone in space. Jovia Delenda Est.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:16:00 - [848] Originally by: Lord Evangelian You keep saying ambulation is fluff and not needed, perhaps for you, but your only seeing it from your perspective of EVE an dhow you play. Have you taken into account the people who plan to use it? I know I do, and others. Because I one day say, I'm not gonna use ambulation doesn't mean it has a design flaw and is point less. This is not my point. I have not said it is fluff and not needed. My point is that as designed it will not be used and thus is a waste of resources. Irrelevant examples snipped Quote: PS: Really mature changing your name for mine in yoru quotation, if this was a real argument in a court of law while under cross examination, or in a philosophy's seminar you would have lost any credibility for your argument there and then... I was showing that your post lacked any content because it meant the same regardless of who's name was in it. If this were a real argument in a court of law while under cross examination, or in a philosphy's [sic] seminar you would have lost any credibility for the personal attacks you make.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:22:00 - [849] Originally by: Alqualonde That being as such, it is more immediately enjoyable, and interesting, for the average person, playing a game, to see other humans around. Most of the time that I'm playing what you think of as the "real" game, the social aspect is just equivalent to IMing with strangers, sans humorous buddy icons and a readable font. Looking at fully-costumed avatars (and people always do creative things that are interesting) with expressions and emotes is a lot more fun. Said avatars will only be visable if you stop playing the game. This is part of the design flaw I mention. Quote: Also, other people already explained the sandbox effect in regards to clothes and corp HQ using SWG as an example so I'll just add one anecdote: If you'd like to address the points I made about the non-combat stuff having firm grounding in game design please do. Quote: Way back when I was living in a college dorm, my roommate and I tried Anarchy Online once. The game itself was a bit over-complicated and tedious, but we had endless fun just exploring and pooling our resources to buy the most ridiculous clothing we could find. This is a type of MMO gameplay that EVE is sorely lacking. 90% of everything I do in the game is to further some goal, rather than purely for fun. Did you ever pay for AO or did you only use a free account? How long did you play AO for?
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:28:00 - [850] Originally by: Hans Langer Obvious plug aside, something to do within Ambulation is an incentive to use it and therefore, a reason. It's not. Killing yourself is something to do but it doesn't seem to be very popular. The thing is there's really no reason to do anything in ambulation. Please see my earlier corp office comment. The idea that people will use ambulation is predicated on the fact that people will be using ambulation. The only argument I've seen that people would frequent your bar is that people want to socialize. For people to be able to socialize in your bar people need to frequent your bar. I don't think people are going to stop playing the game just to frequent your bar. People are not going to relocate and stop playing just to socialize.
Alqualonde Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:35:00 - [851] It is, as I said, a valid concern that ambulation will be completely un-related and may not add anything of lasting value to the game as a whole, but what has been described by CCP sounds fun to me at least. At the very least, as I have explained, the reason to use it is all the time you spend stuck on a station spinning your ship and looking at spreadsheets. Beyond that, we have no way of knowing anything worth being half so bitter about as you seem to be. CCP has described some of the features, but we've seen nary a screenshot of what the final experience will be like. I say, until we have something more concrete, just let them do their thing and then we will see what it's like when it comes out, eh? Also, you had best be quiet on the resources issue unless you are actually a CCP employee in disguise. Originally by: B1FF Did you ever pay for AO or did you only use a free account? How long did you play AO for? Never payed for it, except once by accident. There was probably something at least a little worth paying for there, but I am poor and EVE is better.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:42:00 - [852] Originally by: Templar Vox However, back to the incentive part of the discussion, what about a "boiler room" aka market exchange room? Buyers and sellers of goods would go there and with ambulation you could actually SEE the people who are interested in such tradings and seek them out individually or in groups. Instead of just watching the market window itself you could trade directly and haggle over price. It would be radically different from today. Perhaps a change to the worse some would say. I dont know, Im just tossing out ideas. Your example wonderfully illustrates the problem with ambulation. Your example sounds cool and neat but why would anyone use it? It's a more time consuming and limiting way to do what you can already do. Currently one can shop while they travel, or mission run, or mine, or explore. You can buy and sell (with skills) from anywhere in the region. You can browse contracts from anywhere in the Universe. Why would you limit yourself to having to dock to browse. Additionally the big market players don't care about you. They have no interest in who is buying their stuff as long as someone is buying their stuff. There is no incentive to use the 'boiler room." People will visit it to check it out but no regular usage pattern will develop. Quote: The bar is of course another obvious room to add to any station. It's a pure socialization room. They could perhaps add some mini-games to the bar? Card-games, darts or the like? Why limit the mini-games to the bar? If you're going to have poker let the miners buy into the poker game. Let the gate campers buy into the poker game. Let the POS siegers buy into the poker game. Let the truck drivers buy in. Ambulation is not a prereq for mini-games. Quote: Banks and other financial institutions could also have their own offices that customers and other relations could visit in person. Corps should have their own office too which new recruits can check out - like booths. Please see my earlier, unanswered, points on corp offices. They apply to banks also. Quote: Another feature of ambulation I'd LOVE to see would be being able to visit another player's ship. In the future maybe 1 ship/carrier/titan could be manned by several players having different roles? That would make each ship stronger and change combat as we know it today, and perhaps also solve some of the problems with big fleet battles and lag? It would also be even more dynamic perhaps. And I'd love to take a beer over in my bud's ship. This is irrelevant. This is completely outside the realm of ambulation. CCP has never mentioned anything remotely close to this.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 18:51:00 - [853] Edited by: B1FF on 05/02/2008 18:51:03 Originally by: Alqualonde Beyond that, we have no way of knowing anything worth being half so bitter about as you seem to be. CCP has described some of the features, but we've seen nary a screenshot of what the final experience will be like. I say, until we have something more concrete, just let them do their thing and then we will see what it's like when it comes out, eh? If CCP has been monitoring this discussion at all, they could have scarcely missed your lamentations. You should probably point this out to the pro-ambulation people. I'm posting my opinion. They're posting theirs. CCP gave us this thread to talk about ambulation. That's what I'm doing. Quote: Also, you had best be quiet on the resources issue unless you are actually a CCP employee in disguise. No. It will take resources from the current EvE team. That's an undebatable fact. Originally by: B1FF Did you ever pay for AO or did you only use a free account? How long did you play AO for? Never payed for it, except once by accident. There was probably something at least a little worth paying for there, but I am poor and EVE is better. So you're using a game that is not worth paying for as an argument? A game that you didn't like and found playing dress up in "ridiculous"?
Gage Fox	Posted - 2008.02.05 19:46:00 - [854] Originally by: Apertotes i hope the add a new room withing every private corp place with "The Simulatron", where you can test fittings and even try them against corp mates. yeah, Quickfit and test server are cool, but an ingame tool to properly try setups would be awesome. i have to agree with this fully
Alqualonde Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.05 21:07:00 - [855] Edited by: Alqualonde on 05/02/2008 21:15:51 Edited by: Alqualonde on 05/02/2008 21:13:52 Edited by: Alqualonde on 05/02/2008 21:13:32 Originally by: B1FF You should probably point this out to the pro-ambulation people. I'm posting my opinion. They're posting theirs. CCP gave us this thread to talk about ambulation. That's what I'm doing. You're also really angry about it, and not really addressing the counterpoints in a rational fashion. (I could go back a few pages and quote endless copy-pasted nonsense about the supposed meaninglessness of immersion back at you.) Quote: No. It will take resources from the current EvE team. That's an undebatable fact. So many have posted on this issue it's not even funny. Whether their point is valid or yours is is not an issue that can be resolved by anyone except a CCP employee. Quote: So you're using a game that is not worth paying for as an argument? A game that you didn't like and found playing dress up in "ridiculous"? What the ***? See, this is why people are mad at you. What I want to say here, is I'm tired of this moronic flame war, your argument is clear to me now even if you keep undermining it by saying some pretty silly things and failing to understand other kinds of gameplay, so if we could all just shut up and wait for CCP to either respond or post some more info so that such a debate can be remotely informed, I think that would be awesome. * It has been fun, but also probably a waste of the last ten pages due to the scarcity of actual intelligent debate.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:16:00 - [856] Originally by: Alqualonde You're also really angry about it, and not really addressing the counterpoints in a rational fashion. (I could go back a few pages and quote endless copy-pasted nonsense about the supposed meaninglessness of immersion back at you.) I'm not angry. I see a problem. I'm trying to address the problem. What people don't seem to realize is that I want ambulation to work but in the design we've been shown it's impossible. What counter points have I not addressed? I've repeatedly given reasons why ambulations will not be a significant socialization tool. I firmly believe immersion doesn't exist. If someone forgets that they are playing a game then that person has serious psychological issues and they should seek professional help. The idea that a human figure on the screen will somehow convince people they are not sitting in front of a computer and are in fact on a space station is comical. Quote: No. It will take resources from the current EvE team. That's an undebatable fact. Quote: So many have posted on this issue it's not even funny. Whether their point is valid or yours is is not an issue that can be resolved by anyone except a CCP employee. That's completely wrong. I've posted a list of things that the existing team will have to do. If you'd like to address those please do so. There's no way a change of this scale can be done without resources from the existing EvE team. Sure the engine is being _written_ by a different team but there are a grocery list of other things that need to be done. Quote: * It has been fun, but also probably a waste of the last ten pages due to the scarcity of actual intelligent debate. I've tried for intelligent debate. I've provided reasons why ambulation won't be used. I've pointed out the circular logic of the socialization justification. People refuse to address these issues. All I get in response is, "nah uh. ambu is c00lz!"
Templar Vox	Posted - 2008.02.05 22:22:00 - [857] This thread should be dubbed "B1FF's take on ambulation". You know there are some imperatives when discussing, Biff, and one of them is to never repeat your argument. You've said that you see no incentive or real game play value to ambulation on every single page from 1-29 (my guess, or impression), and I think we know your opinions on it. I appreciate your brains and stayingpower, however you do have a sense of desperation about you when every other post in this thread is yours. You're a very vocal minority, B1ff, and who are you really trying to sway? I think you're out to christen the christians. Try the Devs instead.
B1FF	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:29:00 - [858] Quote: I think you're out to christen the christians. Try the Devs instead. I can't be trying to christen the christians as I don't have a support base to pander to. I'm simply trying to bring an alternate view point to what is otherwise a completely one sided thread. Why do you feel that I'm not allowed my viewpoint?
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.06 11:38:00 - [859] Originally by: B1FF I'm not angry. I see a problem. I'm trying to address the problem. What people don't seem to realize is that I want ambulation to work but in the design we've been shown it's impossible.[/quote There is no problem other than the one you are creating out from nothing. I'm sure CCP dev's are quite capable of figuring out themselves what is possible in their servers and what is not. So sit back, enjoy yourself and be amazed when they do deliver that 'impossible' ambulation sometime this year.
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:27:00 - [860] Originally by: B1FF I firmly believe immersion doesn't exist. If someone forgets that they are playing a game then that person has serious psychological issues and they should seek professional help. The idea that a human figure on the screen will somehow convince people they are not sitting in front of a computer and are in fact on a space station is comical. since when did having immersion meant that you lose touch with reality? an immersive gameplay to me simply means that all the parts of the game came together well enough to create an experience/world that feels authentic and complete. Most RPG games(good ones anyway) do this, and so do just about every good games out there in any genre. Did I imagine myself to be a super-soldier while playing metal gear solid? or a professional race car driver while playing grand turismo? or maybe a medieval knight wielding swords and magic while playing FFT? the answer is No. do those games offer an immersive experience? Yes. to me, your problem seems to be a rather skewed view on what immersion is supposed to be. Last time I checked nobody in the gaming industry has tried to equate immersion to delusions or hallucinations yet.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.06 14:01:00 - [861] Originally by: B1FF I firmly believe immersion doesn't exist. Epic.
Fager Xel'Naga Corp	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:56:00 - [862] Edited by:**er on 06/02/2008 15:58:22 I thought i would add to the debate. First and foremost, i totally understands Biffs points, and they are very real actually. Its a very big risk hoping that ambulation will be a total hit for a long period if there is nothing within it that helps the gameplay. Dont get me wrong, there will be people that would love the systems forever just for the RP aspect and the immersion of feeling "dam my spaceship is big" or seeing your most hated pirate dock in the station hes camping you in, just to drop by the bar and give you a nice evil smile... Where you are spending your time since your camped... there are however some points even Biff agrees on.. (if you don't, my bad ) - Ambulation will be big at the start, everyone will try it.. - Ambulation will make the game alot more attractive to ppl who cant live with no avatar then their spaceships ( _MY_ guess is, the ppl on the fine line here are many) - Ambulation can be evolved after launch to actually include perks, even if it now says "dont worry die hard EVE fans, it wont effect you if you dont want to". - Alot of the financing for this project will "probably" come from the "other" project, sure it will effect eve devs to, but to lesser effect due to this. Im sure im missing points here, however these are enough for CCP to think that the cost of doing this is worth it (minial cost, broaden the gameattractivness to ppl who are on the lines of enjoying the game, but wont due to no full body avatars). I see the design flaw very clear to, and i think no points made against Biff has really taken away that. As it LOOKS NOW (pre alpha) id say the system will be to the majority something used do a extreemly lesser degree. -- My personal opinion and why i dont care, i want this **** -- However if i only enjoyd it for like even 2 weeks, id still say HELL YEAH i want this so bad! if not just for the bling bling.. but for the doors it can open. (I imagine missions like "a damstrel in distress" where if you blow the building the damsel dies, you actually need to dock and do some _very_light_ fps style stuff to save her ;D ) The fact is as it stands, the ppl who will pay for this, the ppl who will be brought to the game with this, the ppl who will come back for this vs the cost that is minimized is worth it imho (and CCP deem it to be worthwhile also) :) - even if i get boored of it after a few weeks (like mining) "I can predict the movement of stars, but not the madness of men"
Katya Leloup The Royal Guard Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.02.06 17:25:00 - [863] Well its been a few months, Can we get an "official" trailer? Or maybe atleast an update how this project is coming along?
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:23:00 - [864] What I see here is people using the word immersion to mean different things. It is demonstrable that things in game feel real to people. The number of people who get mad over having their nonexistant internet spaceship blown apart proves this as do the number of people who laugh over the wrecks of others' nonexistant internet spaceships. This is immersion, not forgetting that you're sitting at a keyboard but rather feeling that the items behind the screen actually exist between frames of animation and that the ship you left in a station is actually in that station even though you have no way of checking what is in that station currently. ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Tunak	Posted - 2008.02.06 18:57:00 - [865] Originally by: Adonis 4174 What I see here is people using the word immersion to mean different things. It is demonstrable that things in game feel real to people. The number of people who get mad over having their nonexistant internet spaceship blown apart proves this as do the number of people who laugh over the wrecks of others' nonexistant internet spaceships. This is immersion, not forgetting that you're sitting at a keyboard but rather feeling that the items behind the screen actually exist between frames of animation and that the ship you left in a station is actually in that station even though you have no way of checking what is in that station currently. You're make huge assumptions here about what's making them angry. They maybe not getting angry because they think the ship is real. They maybe angry because they did something stupid and shouldnt lost the ship. They maybe angry because they just bought the ship. You dont know why theyre angry.
Alqualonde Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:33:00 - [866] Originally by: Tunak You're make huge assumptions here about what's making them angry. They maybe not getting angry because they think the ship is real. They maybe angry because they did something stupid and shouldnt lost the ship. They maybe angry because they just bought the ship. You dont know why theyre angry. Those all sound like being immersed in the game to me. I would simply take immersion, in this context, to mean willful suspension of disbelief. The advantage is it's one word, not a whole phrase, and that's been my impression of what the word means in the context of a video game. I can't believe I'm explaining immersion.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.02.06 20:11:00 - [867] its a free addition because of a different game ccp have on their table and it will be completely optional the only problems would be if its so much fun but storefronts are limited per station and only the rich and the campers get to experience the fun Trashed sig, Shark was here
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.06 21:51:00 - [868] Originally by: B1FF I firmly believe immersion doesn't exist. If someone forgets that they are playing a game then that person has serious psychological issues and they should seek professional help. The idea that a human figure on the screen will somehow convince people they are not sitting in front of a computer and are in fact on a space station is comical. Who needs graphics anyway? I mean, they're only there for immersion purposes after all and have no effect whatsoever on gameplay. IMO waste of dev resources and they should just concentrate all their efforts on lag and jita
Considered Caldari Second Fleet of Homogeneous Clarity	Posted - 2008.02.06 23:21:00 - [869] Ye...it seems good... I agree with the fact we shouldn't have "dance" and "/spit" emotes. Other than that, I'd love the ability to leave my ship, and walk around a bit. /Signed for the Bar
Missy X	Posted - 2008.02.07 01:32:00 - [870] Edited by: Missy X on 07/02/2008 01:33:17 Quote: Who needs graphics anyway? It's a good point. Seeing as how immersion 'doesn't exist', we might as well make EVE a text adventure, right? So we don't even need Ambulation, we just need to get rid of the 'shipulation' so it's on the same text-based level as the walking in stations currently is.

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