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Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:37:00 - [1] I've read numerous times that if I see cruelty to slaves I should file a report with you so that the perpetrator is...well, whatever you people do to them. Now, as you say over and over that you are not cruel to slaves, I present this from the lovable heir of the Kor-Azor family Aritcio, "'What do [the holders of Liparer II] expect? That I send clothes smelling fresh and ironed? I ordered my men to find the dirtiest slave and bludgeon their heads in and take their clothes. They shall wear those and nothing else.'" If this was not wrong of him, and you are not going to do anything about it, please let me know where it says it is a crime for a slave to be dirty (wouldn't that be his master's fault anyways?) and where this crime is punishable by death. Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:46:00 - [2] Watch out, Vreena, get ready for the replies that all slaves are treated with dignity and understanding by compassionate holders who only want to show them the love and light of god. ---------------- Wren Says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT"
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:50:00 - [3] Originally by: Wren Watch out, Vreena, get ready for the replies that all slaves are treated with dignity and understanding by compassionate holders who only want to show them the love and light of god. More than likely, you'll probably get a response that the SPCS encourages the above mentioned behavior towards slaves, not that such behavior is accepted across the board by all Amarrians.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:53:00 - [4] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2007 20:50:16 Your demand here illustrates a deplorable lack of understanding of the nature of justly convicted slaves and of the SPCS. All slaves are already guilty of capital crimes which could have been punished justly by death. That they are allowed to continue life and have a chance at redeeming themselves is a mercy they have not merited by their own action. The act of killing a legaly convicted slave, for whatever reason, is merely to end this unwarrented grace and is not illegal or immoral in any way shape or form. The SPCS, though I could be wrong on this as I am not a member, believes that in all rational circumstances the killing of slaves should be avoided. Its place in the world, however, is not as a legal authority of any sort, but rather as a liberal group promoting its view of how slaves should be treated by virtue of its own example. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:59:00 - [5] Originally by: Wren Watch out, Vreena, get ready for the replies that all slaves are treated with dignity and understanding by compassionate holders who only want to show them the love and light of god. You caught my point. Mr. Aritcio obviously isn't treating his slaves with compassion or understanding. If Amarrians really believe that slaves should be treated as such, where is the outcry against this action? I think what I'm asking is simple: Let the Amarr back up their words and do something about this atrocity. Originally by: Garreck More than likely, you'll probably get a response that the SPCS encourages the above mentioned behavior towards slaves, not that such behavior is accepted across the board by all Amarrians. IÆve heard the SPCS also say that such behavior towards slaves is punishable by Amarrian law. Merdaneth said, ôThe law states that the slaveÆs master should be a good custodian to his slaves, like parents to their children. As with children, slaves are not free to do what they like. As with children, if the slaves are disobedient they can expect to be punished.ö Last I checked, disobedient children do not have their heads bludgeoned in for being dirty. Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:07:00 - [6] Master Lok'ri covered it nicely: "That they are allowed to continue life and have a chance at redeeming themselves is a mercy they have not merited by their own action." You are not fit, and I am not fit, to judge the actions of our betters. Garreck smiles Expect loaded questions to recieve loaded answers.
Agustus Caesar Minmatar Caesar and Sons Salvaging	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri All slaves are already guilty of capital crimes which could have been punished justly by death. Crimes like being born in a slave farm or not being Amarrian? Anyway she may not have addressed it to the right people but it's still a valid question. Claim to be the guiding light of civilization when they allow lunatic nobles to make mad decrees such as the ones we've been seeing from the Kor-Azor? If you're going to forcibly enslave people you should at least protect them from maniacs who randomly excecute those under their power for reasons entirely beyond the victim's control. ----------------------------- "Our nation, may she always be right, but our nation right or wrong" - Unknown
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:18:00 - [8] Edited by: Vreena on 14/03/2007 21:15:15 Realise, before any other Amarrian supporters post here, that people such as Merdaneth have posted many times about the "good" qualities of slavery, and any post you put here could easily undermind anything he has said. I hold a lot of respect for Merdaneth as an intellectual and as a person as I believe he actually treats his slaves well. I don't like thinking that someone here is not telling the truth. Merdaneth again: "So where there is slave abuse, report those who abuse, and the law will take care of the abusers. Some may wind up as slaves themselves." I'm reporting it, what's the law going to do about it? ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:33:00 - [9] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2007 21:30:44 Originally by: Agustus Caesar Crimes like being born in a slave farm or not being Amarrian? No, Crimes like having chosen to forsake God. Some crimes cannot be redeemed in one lifetime. And you should consider that those slaves born into slavery would never have existed had their ancestors been given what they justly deserved. They are being given an unwarranted second chance, you should be thankful, because without that Grace you would not be alive. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Falcione Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:38:00 - [10] And if they were to embrace your religion would their lots be any different? My Bio in Progress Prologue / CH.1

Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Falcione And if they were to embrace your religion would their lots be any different? Are you familiar with the Ni Kunni bloodline?
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:44:00 - [12] Edited by: Vreena on 14/03/2007 21:41:18 Originally by: Falcione And if they were to embrace your religion would their lots be any different? I believe the SPCS has a facility, or is building one, in Gallentean space that teaches initiates the "correct" religion, among other things, and then sends them into slavery. So no, it wouldn't. Also, Mr. Lok'ri, it has been attested by a few Amarrians that many slaves follow your religion. Please refer to my post above this one. Vreena Edit: My appoligies, most likely it wouldn't for a number of generations. ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Wren Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Garreck Originally by: Falcione And if they were to embrace your religion would their lots be any different? Are you familiar with the Ni Kunni bloodline? How does that help the current people getting beat to death? I am really starting to doubt you have any functioning thought processes. ---------------- Wren Says: "Chirpy Chirp Chirp.... DAMNIT"
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:48:00 - [14] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2007 21:48:38 A family that is descended from a slave race sits within the Imperial Royal Families. When a slave has done what is needed to nullify their ancestor's capital sin he is freed and becomes a full working member of society under the protection of law as any other member of the faithful. The more cooperative and reasonable the slave is, the faster that debt to God is payed and the sooner the line is rehabilitated. Until that time, however, the slave has nothing but the undeserved grace of life. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:51:00 - [15] Please, all parties, no insults in this thread please. I would like at least a little productive conversation, and all insults stop that immediately. No offense to you Mr. Wren, especially as you bring up a good point. How does it help those who were beaten to death? Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 21:55:00 - [16] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2007 21:53:36 Without slavery the slaves killed in Kor-Azor would have been killed for their crimes or never been born, therefor the decision to kill them merely took away something that was not theirs in the first place. edit: It also should be mentioned that our people have a long standing tradition of pardoning those who come to us as allies and repent without the need of subjugation. The Khanid, the Nefantir, and on a more personal level the excellent example that is Garreck are all proof of this. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:11:00 - [17] I take it that the answer to my original post is, because the slaves' ancestors were heretics they do not hold any sway over their own lives or deaths. Therefore, the deaths of the slaves on Liparer II were justified. Also, it does not matter if a slave follows the Amarrian religion, they are still godless savages. As a side note, who decides when a slave has ônullified their ancestorÆs capital sin?ö Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Garreck Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Wren How does that help the current people getting beat to death? I am really starting to doubt you have any functioning thought processes. I'm afraid the better part of my thought-processes are combat related. You're welcome to test their functionality at any time, of course. As for the current "plight" of the slaves...I do not expect you to understand the importance of humble service on the path to enlightenment. I do not expect you to understand patience. I expect bitterness and insults, and you deliver every time. It is not for me to judge, only to serve.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:36:00 - [19] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 14/03/2007 22:33:06 Originally by: Vreena I take it that the answer to my original post is, because the slaves' ancestors were heretics they do not hold any sway over their own lives or deaths. Therefore, the deaths of the slaves on Liparer II were justified. Also, it does not matter if a slave follows the Amarrian religion, they are still godless savages. Your constant proficiency at failing to comprehend the issue is entirely unsurprising. A slave who follows the Amarrian Religion is hardly Godless or a savage, in fact said slave will be on the right track to repaying the debt to God and will understand his place in the world and the beauty of the undeserved gift of life. Once a slave line reaches that point, it is seldom a long time before the slave enters society as a cleansed and faithful servant of God. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:43:00 - [20] Dear Vreena, The Amarrian law leaves a slave's owner considerable leeway in the way he tries to bring his slaves enlightenement. Jurisprudence and religious treatises on such cases are varied. Understand that the SPCS are not a criminal investigators, they try to educate slave owners in using alternate methods in bringing enlightnement to their slaves. A good smack around the head can be a useful learning tool, undoubtedly we all have experienced one when we were growing up. But it is hardly the only learning tool. Its effectiveness and ease of use makes it relatively widespread tool, the SPCS simply tries to help find slave owners find viable and effective alternatives which are less physically intrusive. I wholehartedly support this approach. As for the example given, obviously Lord Aritcio is issuing an insult. I don't know of what he said actually took place, or it is merely an colorful argument between disagreeing nobility. Even if it did take place, who am I to judge the heir of the Kor-Azor family just by hearsay? I do not doubt Lord Ariticio will confess his sins, if any, to the head priest of his house, who will determine if penance is required. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery

Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 22:43:00 - [21] Edited by: Vreena on 14/03/2007 22:43:03 Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Your constant proficiency at failing to comprehend the issue is entirely unsurprising. A slave who follows the Amarrian Religion is hardly Godless or a savage, in fact said slave will be on the right track to repaying the debt to God and will understand his place in the world and the beauty of the undeserved gift of life. Once a slave line reaches that point, it is seldom a long time before the slave enters society as a cleansed and faithful servant of God. It's hard to understand a point that has been ignored. The entire reason for placing that sentence there was so you would finally answer it. Thank you for finally clearing it up. Please don't make me bait you and answer the question I asked in my last post. Vreena Edit: Thank you Merdaneth. It is true then, what Mr. Lok'ri is saying about there being no laws against killing a slave at his owner's whim? ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:02:00 - [22] News reports are often inaccurate. It's possible that what the slaves were subjected to was more akin to fraternity hazing than abuse. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:20:00 - [23] Edited by: Vreena on 14/03/2007 23:17:05 Originally by: Rodj Blake News reports are often inaccurate. It's possible that what the slaves were subjected to was more akin to fraternity hazing than abuse. My apologies, Mr. Blake, but I don't see how fraternity hazing is not abuse. And if you meant murder, and not abuse, then I have to ask where the line is drawn between abuse and the intent to kill. Then we're just playing with words really, which just confuses the problem. I think that this news report would at least justify an investigation, though not necessarily prosecution, as you're right, news reports are often inaccurate. And for further purposes of this thread, as I do have a purpose and it being to gain more information about the Amarrian culture, let's theorize that the news report is true. Vreena ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Vreena It is true then, what Mr. Lok'ri is saying about there being no laws against killing a slave at his owner's whim? Gaven Lok'ri is correct, there is no law that forbids owners killing their slaves. This does not mean that the law condones owners killing their slaves 'on a whim'. There are cases of owners getting lawfully punished for killing slaves, cases of owners getting acquitted for killing their slaves after being accused, and cases of owners killing slaves who are never subject to criminal investigation. Killing a slave is in itself not directly subject to criminal investigation, but immoral behaviour by its owner is. Depending on the circumstances a particular slave killing might indicate immoral behaviour by the slave's owner. If killing another is a immoral and thus criminal act depends on the circumstances of the killing. It is perfectly moral to kill another in self-defense or in war. The circumstances determine the morality, and that is true for the killing of slaves as well as the killing of enemy soldiers. As you undoubtedly know our Emperor is an important figure in our culture. Our late Emperor Heideran is widely lauded for his peaceful approach to solving conflicts, and our late Emperior Doriam openly advocated a humane treatment for slaves. Amarrian tribunals would obviously consider the opinion of the Emperor when judging cases of slave killings and determing the extent of the law. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Falcione Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Merdaneth The circumstances determine the morality, and that is true for the killing of slaves as well as the killing of enemy soldiers. And so... what are your thoughts on killing a random slave just to spite another person with an offering of his garments? My Bio in Progress Prologue / CH.1
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.03.14 23:58:00 - [26] Edited by: Merdaneth on 14/03/2007 23:55:19 Originally by: Falcione And so... what are your thoughts on killing a random slave just to spite another person with an offering of his garments? My thoughts about that are quite private, as Holder Keraci's should have been. I certainly would not offer 1 ISK for such a person's head, if that is what you mean. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Lord Murkon Amarr SPCS	Posted - 2007.03.15 00:12:00 - [27] Obviously this "slave" in question was dirty due to an ill-timed escape attempt from the charitable offerings of this kind holder. Perhaps the real question should be why do the Minmatar bring such actions upon themselves instead of accepting the generosity and gifts of Amarr. Lord Murkon SPCS - Serving the pathetic Minmatar and lessor races by the grace of God
Vreena Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.15 00:13:00 - [28] Edited by: Vreena on 15/03/2007 00:11:24 Originally by: Merdaneth Killing a slave is in itself not directly subject to criminal investigation, but immoral behavior by its owner is. Depending on the circumstances a particular slave killing might indicate immoral behavior by the slave's owner. If the slaves were killed, and not just hit upside the head, would this be considered immoral behavior, given the heir's reasons for doing this? Originally by: Merdaneth If killing another is an immoral and thus criminal act depends on the circumstances of the killing. It is perfectly moral to kill another in self-defense or in war. The circumstances determine the morality, and that is true for the killing of slaves as well as the killing of enemy soldiers. I agree completely. My point in this thread is that I don't see the killing, if it happened, of these particular slaves as being morally correct. Then again, we have different moral values as I also do not believe the holders should have been punished for their opinions. Originally by: Merdaneth As you undoubtedly know our Emperor is an important figure in our culture. Our late Emperor Heideran is widely lauded for his peaceful approach to solving conflicts, and our late Emperor Doriam openly advocated a humane treatment for slaves. Amarrian tribunals would obviously consider the opinion of the Emperor when judging cases of slave killings and determing the extent of the law. My last question is, will there be any sort of tribunal for this case? I understand if you do not choose to answer my questions, especially as this occurrence is a good example of what could happen when stating your opinions. I would like to hear your answers though. Vreena Edit: Mr. Murkon, firstly, there is no proof these slaves were Minmatar. Secondly, there is no proof they were escaping. Thirdly, are you saying that there were so many slaves "escaping" at one time on this planet to be able to cloth all of the holders on said planet? ----- The above does not in any way reflect the views and opinions of my corporation...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Arctan	Posted - 2007.03.15 01:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Merdaneth Edited by: Merdaneth on 14/03/2007 23:55:19 Originally by: Falcione And so... what are your thoughts on killing a random slave just to spite another person with an offering of his garments? My thoughts about that are quite private, as Holder Keraci's should have been. I certainly would not offer 1 ISK for such a person's head, if that is what you mean. So what Merdaneth here is saying is that he fears the same fate that Keraci received. He fears marring his social standing. Who wouldn't? we cannot expect Amarrians to go out of their way, risking their lifestyles, to speak out for the weak and lesser people. I feel the urge to point out that the slaves had their heads bludgeoned with the primary purpose being to bloody the cloth. Now, in order for that to be an effective public statement--and we all know that that Lord guy made sure he was effective about it--a lot of blood has to be involved! If that did not result in death, it certainly resulted in massive head trauma, which leads to an inumerable amount of complications, the very least of which is brain damage. Hardly just being smacked around a bit, don't you think? So, assuming this is worthy of investigation and possible prosecution in the Amarr empire, who is going to call for justice? Who is going to risk receiving the same kind of public scorn that Keraci caused for himself and the other holders? And maybe Keraci was right when he spoke out against that Lord, maybe he was on to something, and maybe that Lord simply showed the galaxy that Keraci was right. But, hey, justice isn't worth 1 ISK in Amarrian space.
Thomas Maleficus Caldari all professions	Posted - 2007.03.15 02:46:00 - [30] SPCS? Gimme a break, the fox in charge of the henhouse is what that is. Nice to see the slavers can justify any inhumane barbaric act while still trying to paint the freedom fighters as the terrorist barbarians. What a sad sick joke.



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