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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.08.31 17:18:50 -
[1] - Quote
Could someone from CCP please explain how this will effect PI?
Assume I train omega characters in pi skills and set up planets then let them go unpaid. Will they still be able to manage several planets and all the factories based on the omega skill? Or will the factories offline?
edit: personally I hope you won't be able to do any pi on an alpha account.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.08.31 20:39:14 -
[2] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:Zappity wrote: PI skills are not included in the alpha list in the devblog.
The important question is, however, if you can submit the new extraction cycle into the PI colony or not without the skills if you have the colony already installed.
Yes this is a question that I wish ccp would answer.
I would recommend that the functionality of pi not be allowed on unpaid accounts.
Why? PI is different than pvp. For PVP more pilots means more fun. Giving people free pi accounts will mainly hurt people who use a paid account.
Break people into 2 groups. 1) More time than money or 2) More money than time. Relative to the average eve player I consider myself to be in group 2.
I barely have time to go through the pi characters I currently have. So ccp telling me "hey now you (and everyone else) can have a bunch of free accounts to do pi in" has zero appeal to me. Lots of group 1 people will spend all sorts of time with their free alts and drive the prices down and I will have one less thing to do in eve.
If someone is really just trying the game out then I doubt pi is the reason they are trying it.
Even if ccp doesn't mind losing group 2 players, having a huge number of alts doing pi is a recipe for burnout.
Finally, by limiting this functionality to omega clones would be a big reason to have an omega account.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.02 00:24:26 -
[3] - Quote
Toobo wrote:You know what all these Alpha toons are gonna call Omega toons?
Pay to win!
When all these Alpha toons see current players (Soon to be Omega pilots) flying and using things they can't on a free account, and stomping all over them everywhere, they will not think EVE is F2P game, they will see itnas Pay To Win game.
So ironically, EVE will become pay to win by allowing F2P lol.
Yeah its going from "pay to play" to "pay to win." CCP just need to make it clear that they really only intend the alpha to be for extended trials and for when people are mostly dormant from the game. Alpha is not intended for serious business spaceships.
But your post is prophetic.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.13 15:26:57 -
[4] - Quote
I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.
Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.
Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.13 17:08:32 -
[5] - Quote
Rin Aiko wrote:Cearain wrote:I'm just screwing around in EFT and it seems Caldari and Minmatar Characters pretty much getting screwed. Not giving the caldari or minmatar drone skills really sucks for them.
Not many ships use both guns and missiles at the same time. But many if not most ships use drones along with the other weapons. This is a huge advantage for gallente and amarr.
Gnosis has less than half the dps for caldari or minmitar as it does for gallente or amarr.
Well, if they like Eve they. May want to plex the account.=ƒÿë
Or just get gallente alts. Seriously with gallente industrial 1 and the drone skills this is looking bad.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.13 18:43:07 -
[6] - Quote
I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.
Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.
First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.
Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.
I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.
What can be done? Lots of things.
Eg., 1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or
2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)
3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or
4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.
There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.
edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.13 20:20:51 -
[7] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:Cearain wrote:I know not everything is set in stone and that is the reason for this post.
Based on the skills they gave so far Gallente alphas looks like they will be either more powerful, or much more powerful than all the other alphas.
First there is the issue of drone skills. Gallente and Amarr both have much better drone skills than minmatar or caldari alphas. Caldari and minmatar have gun and missile skills. Which seems balanced unless you play eve. People rarely if ever use both guns and missiles on the same ship. But they almost always use both guns and drones. When you look at a gnosis this means Amarr and Gallente will have about 2xs the dps as caldari or minmatar. This is a huge disparity.
Second is the gallente industrial skill. CCP has not said what will happen with pi. If you have an omega clone set up multiple pi systems what happens when your subscription lapses? CCP has not directly answered this but they have given some vague notions that they may leave them running. If you have ever tried to extract pi skills you know ccp doesn't really have a handle on what pi you have running. Ok so *if* they allow pi to continue to be farmed (or can't prevent it for technical reasons) then the epithal will be a huge benefit for gallente.
I started my characters years ago with the assurance that race didn't matter. The 2 things I mention above matter allot.
What can be done? Lots of things.
Eg., 1) allow characters to choose the racial skills they want as an alpha. or
2) give all races the same drone bonuses (either the lower ones or the better ones whatever)
3) Don't allow alphas to continue pi set ups that only omegas can start. or
4) if you do then at least let all races have access to the epithal.
There are plenty of other things that can address these problems but I just want to make sure ccp is ahead of the game on this.
edit: feel free to mention in this thread any other race imbalance issues. First off before anything else it is important to remember that having a character of a certain race now is a commitment. In this new world there will be no reason to not have all four races as alpha if you so want to. I for one plan to start 4 new accounts to have one of each. So the notion of having to balance them is irrelevant. If the Gnosis flys better with Gallente pilots then dedicated alpha pilots who want to use Gnosis will just start as Gallente. The race never mattered before, and it stops mattering if you ever decide to go Omega. As far as better drone skills, most T1 cruiser down stick pretty tight to the racial theme. The Bantam has 5m3 drone capacity, which is really just to get on kills, and isn't part of it "purpose" The Heron gets 15 mbit bandwidth but again isn't a combat ship, most of the time those will be ewar drones, or killing defenseless targets The Griffin gets 5m3 and again, isn't really the point of the ship, and you have plenty of combat capability and disabling solo enemies. Osprey has 20m3 and is the same as the Bantam Blackbird has 10m3 and is the same as the Griffin Of these the only one even potentially impacted by having only Drone III is the Osprey Interestingly this argument affects the Caracle and the Moa, notably the combat cruisers for the Caldari. https://o.smium.org/loadout/103238 Less than 10% of the total damage is the drones, and even then a max skilled Caldari pilot will field the full 2 drones the Caracal has. This makes the actual damage difference from the drones to be almost negligible. However for ships bonused for Drones (such as Amarr and Gallente) the difference between having or not having those skills can be the difference between not having Missile Projectile or Missile Bombardment. .
Starting new characters may sound good to you, but I already have invested years in the characters I have. For years ccp has been saying race doesn't matter. Now it does and in a substantial way. I don't want to exaggerate this but the difference is substantial. When the overall skills are decreased having the 2 weapon systems becomes even more valuable. This is true due to the way the bonuses work.
Ashterothi wrote:As far as PI, I can only appeal to the above note. For that edge case, I would recommend you use the best tool for the job. Assuming they can even manage their PI as alphas.
Ok I am not sure how what was said above applies. No other races will be able to fly the epithal. And that is the pi ship unless I am missing one. Now yes it does assume we can manage pi as alphas. I would be quite happy if they did not allow pi to continue running on alpha accounts. But because ccp does not seem to have enough handle on the code to allow us to extract pi skills I tend to think we will be able to keep running pi. You say that this is an "edge" case. Again I don't mean to exagerate but pi is a substantial part of the game. To only allow one race to do that efficiently as an alpha clone is significant.
edit: But I do hope they don't allow pi that requires an omega to set up to continue to be run by alphas.
edit2: Just let me pick my racial bonuses for when I am an alpha - problem solved. You can pick minmatar or caldari if you think they are decent.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.14 03:17:25 -
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Namaan wrote:I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas.
You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account.
Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice.
At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.14 10:07:38 -
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Teckos Pech wrote:Cearain wrote:Namaan wrote:I think the issue is you are looking at this in absolutes... Just because one race is worse in say PvP doesn't mean they can't PvP, I mean if you really want to think that way then Alphas should just give up because Omegas. You are comparing a paid account with a non paid account. Look when I started my characters they said your race wouldn't matter. Why not just allow us characters who relied on that representation to pick what alpha racial skills will stay with their character? So you can pick the caldari set or gallente set or whatever. Then you would be stuck with that set but at least it was your own choice. At first I didn't think it mattered much because I thought the alphas would be weak. But if they can do pi and fly around in gnosis ships then they are not really weak at all. Plus flying in cruisers and down is pretty fun anyway. But being stuck in caldari or minmatar or even amarr will suck compared to gallente who can do pi and have a pretty nice blaster gnosis that does almost 600 dps. Edit: I didn't realize the alphas could use tech 2 damage mods. The damage is easilly over 600 dps for a gallente blaster gnosis. I really think this is a bit too powerful because honestly I think I would rarely sub anymore. Have you read the Dev blog? Alphas cannot do PI. Can they fly around in a Gnosis? Sure. And please show us this 600 DPS Gnosis fit that an Alpha can fly.
If alphas can not do PI that is one thing. But the question Ccp has left open is whether an omega can set up PI and then let the subscription lapse. What then happens? The dev blog says only they will generally take a hands off approach to such matters. Moreover currently you can't extract most PI skills. So I wouldn't be surprised if after an omega sets up a PI system he can let his sub lapse and continue to farm it with the alpa If that's not the case ok. But until we have an answer this thread is to talk about consequences. And if we can do PI gallente have a substantial advantage in the apparent ability to use the epithal.
Gnosis: Put modal neutron blasters with navy antimatter. Use fed navy medium drones and 2 dda2s and 2 mag stab2s in the lows. If your a maxed gallente alpha you get a bit over 620 without heat. You still have room for a nice tank like with a xl asb or other shield tank. But you may need a fitting mod and rig.
I really am surprised how powerful alphas will be. Whoever decided on the 5 mill sp spent them wisely. If this goes through like it I think, I will be saving probably at least half my sub money. I guess that's good for me but I am doubtful others will make up the difference me and others like me will create. I never thought eve was expensive. But why spend money you really don't have to?
I will just say it would seem easier to add abilities to alphas later than to take them away. For once I am afraid Ccp will lose allot of their income and not make it back. The whole PI thing is sort of a big deal in my personal decision to sub my accounts.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.14 16:10:55 -
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Namaan wrote:Cearain wrote:Namaan wrote: It doesn't matter what I compare, if your that sore about Gal vs Cal then its going to be bad for you no matter what.
Yeah it does matter. I am not inclined to pay for my account with alphas being so powerful. I mean that gnosis fit is just a bit less than the ferox fit I have been flying with. Plus I can buy huge amounts of them with the money I save. I don't usually fly things bigger than a bc anyway. Sure some of my alliance fleet stuff will be out, but they will develop alpha doctrines and if we end up in a serious war I can plex the account for the month or 2. Honestly, like teckos Pech I didnGÇÖt realize just how powerful these alphas can be until I started screwing around with eft. Now I admit I would be sore if alphas can continue to farm pi and only gallente can fly epithals. Basically giving gallente and only gallente pi will be a huge kick to other races - do you agree? Other than that itGÇÖs no big deal. I will just play a gallente alt I have instead of my main. Do I agree? Yes and no... Are Alphas better than people think? Yes... Do I think Gal is better at PvP, and Cal is better at Missions? Yes again, but this is nothing new... Do I think its Gal or nothing? No, a Cal pilot can still PvP just fine, yes he will be less effective than a Gal pilot, but he can still get work done... I do agree that some skills need to be evened out like Drones as it hurts Caracel. Do I think Alphas are good enough to give up the Omega life? That depends on the individual and what they want out of EVE, but for the most part I say no, Alpha clones are not the way to live is you can help it.
Those are all fair answers. I think we disagree on the importance of the gnosis. But I admit it's possible that they will become prohibitively expensive in the future. Plus some of the navy cruisers and other ships are still pretty strong and not as unbalanced as the gnosis ends up being.
We can agree to disagree on whether alphas are too strong. As much as I am happy to save the few hundred dollars I spend on subscriptions every year, I think for ccp's good they should tone them down. Maybe cruiser 3 instead of cruiser 4 and also maybe only meta damage mods - I don't have enough information to give a full answer. But I think allot of people will be just fine saving money and not flying the blingy ships.
I also think pi on more than one planet with the advanced skills should be a no go even if you set up the pi as an alpha. My question was about pi in particular. I doubt you do pi because if you did you know how important the epithal is. There are some ifs in what I say. I assume the alphas will be able to access the pi factories etc. But if they are able to access them (honestly I hope they won't be able to access pi - for ccps sake) then ccp should do something about the epithal. Either give other races an equivalent ship, or allow all to fly the epithal, or let us pick our alpha race set, etc..
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.14 17:49:15 -
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Namaan wrote:
I don't have an answer with the PI debate, it is a touchy subject which I'm sure will get hammered out by the end of the year at the latest, as for the epithal thats not something Alphas can use iirc.
In eft you can use them when you plug in the gallente alpha skills.
I would say you probably can use them but it is not confirmed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/50ml92/can_alpha_clones_fly_a_gnosis/
Gnosis is not a cruiser destroyer or frigate yet alphas can fly it. So the logic seems to be as long as you have the skills you can fly it regardless of that initial claimed restraint. But again its not confirmed.
In all the feedback I have not even gotten the sense that ccp is aware of an issue with pi. They have not even so much have said "yeah we are still not sure what we will do with PI."
Your idea of limiting the skills to destroyers or frigates seems good to me.
Or they could allow new players to go up to slightly higher levels for the first 6 months or something (maybe even cruiser 5) call it a beta clone and then after 6 months things would go back down to alpha clone with lower skills. I really think they are going to lose allot of subs with alphas being this strong.
But then again omegas can probably plex their account just by skill training and selling injectors. But then again that market is beginning to settle in where it is not so profitable and who knows what will happen to plex prices. My *guess* is subscriptions will drop dramatically and plex prices will go up because more people will just want omegas for a month or so.
The guy from industry has concerns and I am not familiar with that. But I wonder if you can put very long jobs in with your omega and then just use a plex every 3 months or so.
trade alts might be able to put trades in as an omega and then just use a plex before the 90 days expires. In the meantime I think they can still modify their trades. So again there would be little point in subbing for more than a month every now and then. Same with PI.
I hope ccp is thinking this through better than their dev blogs let on. Something like this could drop them in the red real fast.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.14 19:30:02 -
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Iowa Banshee wrote:
The T2 rigs requirement is not met but the Gnosis fit should still work.
As for the PI If it continues running without active subscription :-
If the 14 day trial account is still in place then 3 toons with an addition month subs to train up to a reasonable level. Get them into a wormhole with OK planets and let the subs lapse - set the pi to run for a week and collect the goods every few weeks or when the poco is full. For extra income be sure to train just a little for ME & TE research to add more isk to the pot.
Upkeep would be prior to logging on for your 'normal' game. Log onto 3 alphas reset extractors and if required run to POCOs to collect the goods - say 15mins a day - funnel the goods to your factory planet Main.
Turn over period 7 days so that's 21 alphas for passive pi income - say 200 mill each = 4.2 billion + the 82 BPO's being researched should add another billion a month.
Of course, for the more OCD players, 30 min a day with 42 alphas = 8.4 billion.
YES - CCP will need to do something about farming subs-lapsed alphas for PI -
Maybe disable spaceport transfer to POCO and only allow command center launches ?
The problem would be neckbeards with 200 alphas running pi. And if alphas can run strip mining planets then they likely can run factory planets after they are set up as an omega. The planetology and adv planetology skills have no value for factory planets so alphas would actually be best suited for those.
The unemployed would kill the game for those of us who try to occasionally do some work for a living.
As much as i would like to say give an alpha a single planet and be able to run it with command 4 with interplanetary connections, there will be guys who make a hundred accounts and each alpha would run a planet. I hope ccp realizes 1) lots of their subs are due to pi and 2) running pi isn't really what new players join eve for anyway. Allowing alphas to run pi will just mean cheap vets with no life or money, will drive the rest out.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.15 20:28:11 -
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Morgals wrote:Looking through the alpha clone skills I think the drone skills of amar and gallentai make them significantly more powerful than caldari or minmitar.
Bumping caldari and minmitar to drone 4 would help a lot as a few ships do have 40m3 of drone bandwidth.
I would also like to see more than 1 skill point in target painting. target painting is not as useful at level 1 and should be brought up to level 3.
Neither caldari nor minmatar can even use medium drones. This mainly hurts them with the gnosis (the best ship alphas can fly) I don't mind whether they reduce the amarr or gallente or boost the caldari, but until they do the races have a substantial imbalanced.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.19 21:39:50 -
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Teckos Pech wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And...how would they do this? Can player A access player B's PI set up?
Spend 1-2 months as Omega. First month on a referral is free effectively since you get matching game time on your main account. You train PI skills during that time. Then you drop back to Alpha status having your PI up & running. Since they haven't answered if they can actually stop an alpha using PI it's already trained and set up it's possible that you could have free alpha PI alts using this method. And can they still access it without the skills?
That is the question for ccp.
Can they restart extractors? Can they move pi to the customs office? Can they get pi out of customs office? Can they put extractors and factories at long cycles and have them keep working? Or does it all just shut down and gray out when the account sub runs?
I hope it is the last is the answer, but we shall see.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.09.20 15:55:01 -
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Khan Wrenth wrote:Cearain wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: And...how would they do this? Can player A access player B's PI set up?
Spend 1-2 months as Omega. First month on a referral is free effectively since you get matching game time on your main account. You train PI skills during that time. Then you drop back to Alpha status having your PI up & running. Since they haven't answered if they can actually stop an alpha using PI it's already trained and set up it's possible that you could have free alpha PI alts using this method. And can they still access it without the skills? That is the question for ccp. Can they restart extractors? Can they move pi to the customs office? Can they get pi out of customs office? Can they put extractors and factories at long cycles and have them keep working? Or does it all just shut down and gray out when the account sub runs? I hope it is the last is the answer, but we shall see. Can you skill extract this yourself on the *test* server real quick, and see the results yourself? I'm not being nasty or anything, I don't have PI on any character or I'd test it myself. Since you seem to know, I assume you have characters that do. Test server should be safe to try that out with, so maybe you could run the test and post on this thread about how it worked out?
My testing was done on only on tranquility but I assume it would be the same on sisi. You can't extract interplanetary consolidation even if you are using fewer planets than your skill level allows. You also can not extract command center upgrades if you have any planets already using that level.
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Cearain
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Posted - 2016.10.01 16:52:44 -
[16] - Quote
Kaivarian Coste wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Try reading the minutes, it sounds like CCP are going to be limiting them to 1 free account per person Where is this? I like the idea of alpha clones. In the age of casual gaming, people don't want to "rent" a single game for $15 per month that they might play once a week. +1 to CCP.
The minutes were unclear. I don't think they are going to limit free accounts to one per person because that would mean your omega accounts would be wiped when you are no subscribed.
Do you mean only one free account logged in at a time?
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Cearain
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Posted - 2017.02.24 21:12:11 -
[17] - Quote
I think alphas should just be able to choose what race skillset they want to use regardless of their race. Maybe allow a new choice every 4 months or something.
Suddenly its all balanced.
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