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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |

Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
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Posted - 2016.09.02 20:30:38 -
[1] - Quote
Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. |

Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
|
Posted - 2016.09.02 21:48:13 -
[2] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really
The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
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Posted - 2016.09.03 07:05:32 -
[3] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Hello piloteers,
Today is a sad day as we pilots from an earlier time have lost the battle we so fiercely fought against. CCP has decided to introduce pay to win and focus more on making revenue instead. Because of this move less company energy will be available for player experience, immersiveness and the quality of the game*. According to me the only remedy to keep player retention is good quality content in exchange for the right price.
However CCP could have done it much more differently and much more elegantly.
My proposal would be to make 3 subscription accounts namely beta, gamma and omega**:
B -> Beta clone for $3-5 a month. These Beta clones are for pilots that can use all small sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the medium or large sized stuff.
G -> Gamma clone for $8-10 a month. These Gamma clones are for pilots that can use all small + medium sized ships and modules. They can use and train any skills further if they wish except the large sized stuff.
O -> Omega clone for $15 a month. These Omega clones are for pilots that can use and train all stuff. These are the current accounts we have now.
*As it is known from similar attempts the overall quality of the game will slowly dwindle and development will be less about making new, fun and good content.
**Alpha could still be the trial account but that should not be unlimited. Please explain how by them offering everyone access to there accounts for free, old / new / expired and completely free access with limitations to anyone who wishes to try the game unhindered by time restraints, Trial has become pay 2 win. So you suggest that someone who pays 3 dollars a month should have the same access rights as someone who pays 15 dollars to PI / industry / Invention / Maunfacturing but because they only fly small ships its fine ... Really The details about balancing PI/ industry/ Invention/ manufacturing in these different clone accounts need to be worked out I agree. It's the basic idea I think is solid. So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
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Posted - 2016.09.03 09:30:48 -
[4] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time. Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough. So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing. I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ??
That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
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Posted - 2016.09.03 10:32:57 -
[5] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote: So thats one part out the way, how is it that trial has now become pay 2 win
Well once the new lured players are attracted by free to play advertising, they will soon find out that if they want to compete effectively they need to pay So when it was labelled as "Trial" be it 14 - 21 - 30 days and maybe upto a possible 1 mill sp's gained give or take that was fine albeit limited by skill sets and time. Now they offer Alpha states ( Unlimited trial / free play mode) you get 5 mill skill points but you can't do anything because theyre too limited or viewed as Pay 2 Win, they have access by unlimited time alone to far more than the "Trial Toons" ever had but its not enough. So all those people / corps / alliances who have helped trial accounts over the years with there limited skill points have been wasting there time, i mean having 5 mill skill points to work with now and zero time barrier just doesnt cut it compared to 1 million and upto 30 days of play to make your mind up if your ready to commit to playing. I can understand peoples concerns in certain area's like safety setting in high, ganking the industry / manufacturing / markets but to claim pay2win and not enough to keep them engaged is laughable. Where do you draw the line between a fully paid up player and a free mode player that is a happy medium then ?? That's what we need to find out. I believe we need a clear line in the sand, which is my proposal with the Beta, Gamma and Omega clone. Pilots can recognize more easily the small, medium and larger ships which have been defined already. The alpha clone needs to be competitive without the feeling of being not useful. Perhaps trading and manufacturing for the alpha would be good. Also adding some kind of support ship class (corvettes or cutter class ships = tiny = step lower then frigates) especially for alpha clones. You are trying to turn it into a pay to win system, the more you pay the higher the ship class you pilot and how are even smaller ships for alpha's ( free play mode ) going to make them feel like they are able to accomplish anything like what they had even in the old trial system. Edit: Actually we have them already - Ibis, Velator, impairor and whatever the skip rats fly you want them to be in rookie ships for the duration 
It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
9
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Posted - 2016.09.03 11:07:08 -
[6] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple.
It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. |

Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2016.09.03 12:56:44 -
[7] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? Smaller ships can introduce support roles which help other ships. Apart from that alpha pilots can easily recognize their own class in which they have a better chance in combat and makes it more clear when to avoid it altogether.
**P.S. the special restrictions make it very difficult to balance the game and add a lot of problems regarding what pilots can or cannot attack at glance. Even the new racial system does not promote better combat but more awkward situations (for example just before combat, doubt slips in and ends up avoiding or fleeing the field as you do not know which skill the opponent has which could tip the balance.
To be fair thats utter garbage from the moment you uttered its been pay 2 win for some time, your idea of multiple clones is by far the most offensive way of segregating every single tier of ship i've seen so far and price bracket it in that way. It not trying to be a world of tanks and any other free to play garbage out there which want hand in wallet sessions for everything you do. Its to offer anyone new or old a chance to experience the game unhindered by time limitations upto a certain class of ship and skill set free. If you like it you sub, if your unsure you continue in the freemode gameplay, if its not your cup of tea you leave but you can still try it again with having to start again. It's pretty simple. It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome. So lets be clear here, they're giving you unfettered access to the EvE universe for free to everyone old and new, they're now giving you 5 million skill points for free - All which are replacing the old trial very limited SP accumulation and at max 30 days play. In your wisdom you say that a tiered system of paying is better for people wanting to try and see if this is the game they could play for any length of time 
Yep the system is fair and clear.  |

Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.03 13:05:54 -
[8] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Elayae wrote: It's a clear and fair system and less offensive then the alpha clone with limited skills. Any better ideas are welcome.
No, it's a convoluted and annoying system, and it's flawed beginning with its inception. Unless you believe that the current set-up that EVE has makes the game P2W, I can't fathom how you've gotten it in your mind that a time-unrestricted trial account will suddenly make the game P2W. Time-unrestricted trial accounts do not suddenly make a Pay-to-Play game become a Pay-to-Win game.
Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.03 13:14:38 -
[9] - Quote
Sylvia Kildare wrote:Elayae wrote:It has already been pay to win for some time. What I am trying to do is to give alpha clones a real full game (without all the special restrictions**) which can be stepped up more easily to a heavier subscription. As revenue is the focus why not introduce more stepping stones? If you make the game that alpha clones can experience a lot more "real" and "full" that what they're talking about now, then you run the risk of reducing the number of alpha clones who will ever upgrade to omega. It will also mean more and more veterans can reduce the number of omega accts they have by replacing them more and more with alphas. IOW, from both old AND new players, CCP will be making less cash. That doesn't seem like the right way to go to keep the game healthy. The alpha experience MUST be lackluster compared to the omega or else there is no incentive to pay for the omega.
The risk is not greater then introducing the alpha clone and upsetting the omega ones to leave. A fairer system leads to more understanding then try to mix 2 systems which are further apart. The idea is to create a win win situation for both alpha and omega.
Healthy or not, this is already a bold move. Many are in doubt or have reached the tipping point to say goodbye.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.03 13:19:27 -
[10] - Quote
Winter Archipelago wrote:Elayae wrote: Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
The problem with that is the verbiage, not with the execution. EVE is only going to be P2W with this change if it has always been P2W. If you want to argue that, then you're on your own, because I don't feel like killing that many brain cells just to understand it enough to argue with you.
I understand, to explain the P2W in the old system does not matter now.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.04 06:24:46 -
[11] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:
Yes it does as the perception is free to play at first, most players realize after a while that in order to be competitive effectively you need to pay. Hence the pay to win introduction with alpha clones which is in contrast to the system we have now in which PLEX can be earned to play.
In its current incarnation, there are people in rookie who are actually earning enough for a plex whilst they are in there trial time. So if its possible to do that when time restricted then in an endless time cycle freeplay mode you will have equal if not more of a chance to attain this level of earning ergo making your pay 2 win scenario a mute point. That is also with t1 kit and racial ships nothing fancy.
Let me explain it in full here:
P2W = Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
According to the definition Eve was already P2W in the first place. As players could buy multiple accounts and have superior advantage in combat. Although it's a bit silly of course to declare this, but the definition stills holds.
However by introducing F2P CCP made it more obvious that the game is P2W now. As a mix of F2P and P2P together is regarded as P2W by definition. Hence all the confusion in the discussion, but the F2P introduction makes it P2W properly for me. Therefore my proposed tiered system makes a lot of sense as it's more clear and fair.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.04 07:38:14 -
[12] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:
Let me explain it in full here:
P2W = Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
According to the definition Eve was already P2W in the first place. As players could buy multiple accounts and have superior advantage in combat. Although it's a bit silly of course to declare this, but the definition stills holds.
However by introducing F2P CCP made it more obvious that the game is P2W now. As a mix of F2P and P2P together is regarded as P2W by definition. Hence all the confusion in the discussion, but the F2P introduction makes it P2W properly for me. Therefore my proposed tiered system makes a lot of sense as it's more clear and fair.
Pay 2 win is where you have a free 2 play business model then with microtransaction you purchase in game items such as booster packs - building materials - x2 or x3 item speed ups and the old chestnut golden ammo. They are not selling these little miracle pack to make you better than anyone else in eve, You have currently trial mode and full access come november trial becomes Alpha - ( just a better trial a free play mode) Omega - full access, They have not changed the business model of the game its a subscription game as always. Here CCP are doing what others have done, They have merely opened the game up to everyone by removing any limitation on how long they play before the game publisher ends there free time in the environment. They have also given the free play mode player the chance to interact with more of the game with upping there skill point pool three fold. All you keep quoting are the click bait headlines of the gaming media and maybe to some extent how CCP actually delivered the news to them in the first place. If you read any of the article published on this further than the headline most go into detail on the limitations of the alpha and how the game is opened to full access with omega. Edit : I will add to this though, if after a short time we see become available in the NEX shop ..... Beta clone : bring your neural training upto the same as a omega for XXX Gamma clone: be able to train into small T2 weaponry for XXX Delta clone be able to train into small T2 hulls for XXX Then this is a paid advancement above the alpha clone ( Trial - free play mode ) and an additional payment of the subscription model - Omega and would constitute a pay2 win scenario.
I agree completely. Microtransactions are considered small but there is no clear answer on the amount of that. And this is where subscriptions and microtransactions fall into a grey area. I do not see a real difference here, only that microtransactions are done more random. So technically there is no real difference between them only in name but not by definition. A subscription can be regarded as a periodic microtransaction gaining full access to all gear.
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Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc The 11th Hour Alliance
10
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Posted - 2016.09.04 10:15:25 -
[13] - Quote
Daylan Vokan wrote:Elayae wrote:I agree completely. Microtransactions are considered small but there is no clear answer on the amount of that. And this is where subscriptions and microtransactions fall into a grey area. I do not see a real difference here, only that microtransactions are done more random. So technically there is no real difference between them only in name but not by definition. A subscription can be regarded as a periodic microtransaction gaining full access to all gear.
Buy 2 play - one off payment and play your game - Expansion still fall under the same category Pay 2 play - You either have to buy the game or you get the game for free but has a recurring monthly payment Free 2 play - No cost to base game no recurring monthly payments - Usually has the - in game purchases available Then you can throw into the mix all the crap like founder's packs or other innocuous drivel where free 2 play publishers try to hook you with one off items rare mounts and special edition junk and you can end up spending more on those than you would a premium well established franchise title  for beta access or play for a week before anyone else. I've never classed a subscription as a microtransaction. Its upfront your made fully aware of what the product entails then its up to you whether you want to continue or purchase a product of this nature.
I agree. Nothing more to add here. 
It's all those different interpretations of different people that start off the confusion, glad this has been cleared up. Gather all the discussion texts and put it in wikipedia already.  |
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