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"Relevant Skills" tab for Show Info Window

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Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 912	Posted - 2016.09.10 21:02:35 - [1] - Quote When we look at the information available for a ship or module, there is a tab that tells us what skills we need to learn before we can use it. Proposal Rename "Requirements" tab to "Relevant Skills". Split the contents of that tab into "Requirements" and "Improvements" sections. The "Improvements" section should contain all the skills that will improve the performance of the ship or item in some way e.g. Reactive Armor Hardener Requirements Hull Upgrades Level 3 Mechanics Level 1 Improvements Resistance Phasing Why? This will be helpful to everyone. Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3075	Posted - 2016.09.11 01:22:50 - [2] - Quote and the skills that are both required to learn and are used to improve? BLOPS Hauler
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 826	Posted - 2016.09.11 04:08:06 - [3] - Quote Just my thing maybe but I prefer this feature in 3rd party fitting tools. Because you can adjust levels to see what your are getting on skill trains to see how much you need to go for now. Get her up and running and tweak later kind of thing. Plus CCP's recommendations....have not always been the most accurate. Some will recall the old certificates, and how some made no sense. Or the screen will start to get ugly fast. I'd be looking at the caldari jam rides. If I wrote this requirement screen, then added improvements section it get large real fast. Want to improve the falcon/scorpion/widow...well lets tell you how properly lol. it be a laundry list of armour tank skills (basically all of them really), rigs (to enhance the jams)....basically a ton of stuff above caldari ship 5, spaceship command 5, etc.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 45055	Posted - 2016.09.11 04:17:20 - [4] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Proposal Rename "Requirements" tab to "Relevant Skills". Split the contents of that tab into "Requirements" and "Improvements" sections. On the first suggestion: If any change, I think it should be 'Required Skills' They are more than just relevant, they are prerequisites, so required is more expressive in my view. I agree on the addition of the word 'Skills' as that also makes it more expressive and easier to comprehend, especially for people coming from an English as a second language background. On the second suggestion, this is where ship mastery comes in. Ideally that would be a system that tells you all you need to know to progress from basic ability to fly, through to complete mastery from a skills perspective. Unfortunately, the mastery system is out of date (and not all that old) but if any change, I'd hope CCP fix the current system so it does what you suggest. Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
Iain Cariaba 3195	Posted - 2016.09.11 04:57:48 - [5] - Quote Here's my questions: Why do you need CCP to spoon feed you information? Why are you unable to discuss these things with corpmates, or do research on your own? Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 912	Posted - 2016.09.11 12:34:50 - [6] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: and the skills that are both required to learn and are used to improve? Put them in both sections - they don't have to be mutually exclusive! Scipio Artelius wrote: On the second suggestion, this is where ship mastery comes in. I agree that ship mastery is supposed to do this, but there is no equivalent for modules. I think this would be easier to implement and more straightforward than "Module Mastery". Iain Cariaba wrote: Here's my questions: Why do you need CCP to spoon feed you information? Why are you unable to discuss these things with corpmates, or do research on your own? Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? And here are my replies: It's not spoon feeding, it's making the information more easily accessible to new players Discussing with corp / alliance mates is always good, but they don't always have all the answers This would make it easier to "do research on your own" by presenting the relevant information all in one place Making information more accessible to new players will not somehow remove that information from your brain. Nothing is being "flushed down the toilet". The idea that we put in the hard work to learn X, Y, Z therefore new players should have to do the same amount of hard work is a non-starter. If CCP subscribed to that mentality, EVE would never receive any quality of life improvements e.g. multi-buy. Some good discussion, thanks everyone. Not being able to respond to criticism is often a good indicator that your idea is lacking in merit so I'm glad to have this opportunity to show that mine does. Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 984	Posted - 2016.09.11 14:12:09 - [7] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Just my thing maybe but I prefer this feature in 3rd party fitting tools. Because you can adjust levels to see what your are getting on skill trains to see how much you need to go for now. . I cannot see how changing the way the information is displayed in game could possibly affect the use of a 3rd party tools. And I wonder why you think that changing them in game would affect those 3rd party tools. Iain Cariaba wrote: Here's my questions: Why do you need CCP to spoon feed you information? Wondering how and why you think this change would be "spoon feeding" players information? The information is already in the game all this idea does is present that information in a more concise manor and in the process could remove some of the confusion that surrounds skills in this game. Iain Cariaba wrote: Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? How is changing the way information is presented going to cause information, knowledge or skills learned to be "flushed down the toilet"? Of all the reasons one could used to argue against a change this one ranks in the top ten of useless and irrelevant. Going back to the OP. I like the basic idea, however changing "Requirement" to "Relevant" is not a good idea. Relevant indicates that something is related to or associated with. While it is true that the skills currently listed are associated with the module or ship "relevant" does not accurately communicate the fact that these skill are "required" to be able to use the module or ship.
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1824	Posted - 2016.09.11 14:44:25 - [8] - Quote It's a good idea. Separate tabbed called "affected by" will go a long way imo
Iain Cariaba 3195	Posted - 2016.09.11 17:29:15 - [9] - Quote Donnachadh wrote: Zan Shiro wrote: Just my thing maybe but I prefer this feature in 3rd party fitting tools. Because you can adjust levels to see what your are getting on skill trains to see how much you need to go for now. . I cannot see how changing the way the information is displayed in game could possibly affect the use of a 3rd party tools. And I wonder why you think that changing them in game would affect those 3rd party tools. Iain Cariaba wrote: Here's my questions: Why do you need CCP to spoon feed you information? Wondering how and why you think this change would be "spoon feeding" players information? The information is already in the game all this idea does is present that information in a more concise manor and in the process could remove some of the confusion that surrounds skills in this game. Iain Cariaba wrote: Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? How is changing the way information is presented going to cause information, knowledge or skills learned to be "flushed down the toilet"? Of all the reasons one could used to argue against a change this one ranks in the top ten of useless and irrelevant. Going back to the OP. I like the basic idea, however changing "Requirement" to "Relevant" is not a good idea. Relevant indicates that something is related to or associated with. While it is true that the skills currently listed are associated with the module or ship "relevant" does not accurately communicate the fact that these skill are "required" to be able to use the module or ship. Wanting to preserve a slight advantage I have because I've taken the time to read through the skill descriptions to learn that skill x impacts module y or ship z is neither useless nor irrelevant. As you said, the information is already in game. It is also very easy to find, as it's right there in the skill descriptions. Asking CCP to put all of this easily available information in one place is the very definition of having it spoon fed to you. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1830	Posted - 2016.09.11 17:57:45 - [10] - Quote Advantages should be only gained from application of knowledge, not the difficulty of obtaining it. Art of Explosions

Iain Cariaba 3195	Posted - 2016.09.11 18:21:10 - [11] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Advantages should be only gained from application of knowledge, not the difficulty of obtaining it. Since when is reading skill descriptions difficult? EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Do Little Virgin Plc Evictus. 386	Posted - 2016.09.11 18:54:47 - [12] - Quote This already exists - it's the mastery tab next to the requirements tab. The certificates are fairly generic - if you've got "core spaceship operation" at mastery level 3 for 1 ship, you've got it for all of them but the certificates recommended on the info sheet for each ship are the ones relevant to that ship. Mastery level 3 is a good target for any ship you intend to use regularly.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 827	Posted - 2016.09.12 03:50:05 - [13] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Advantages should be only gained from application of knowledge, not the difficulty of obtaining it. Since when is reading skill descriptions difficult? Since gaming took on a paid to play aspect. In that you get the lucky few who get the blog and youtube hits to dumb down games to boost hits, to get paid more. Quick cheat sheet guides filled with great looking videos....but don't bog you down with facts as to why they work. just do this, it works. Okay? now like/subscribe me so I get paid more lol. This sadly works to get those hits. People like the cliffs notes feed it to me approach. See it other games where when you look for a build you get a few results. Usually short and sweet for the attention deficit disorder crowd. Place like icy veins I will say tries to break this trend. They give the build...then a very thorough description on why and how it works. But the attention deficit disorder crowd tends to skip the 5-10 minute reads, they go just give me build, words make my head hurt.. Seen in Diablo 3 groups play over a few seasons where I was dealing with some special players in pubs. Asked wtf there they running and why is it so bad. Saw a few copied icy veins build (one D3 source for build)s, knew the build and had to go dude...did you even read the write up as you are using this build all wrong. You are doing everything it said not to do even.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3082	Posted - 2016.09.12 03:55:35 - [14] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Advantages should be only gained from application of knowledge, not the difficulty of obtaining it. Since when is reading skill descriptions difficult? what if you don't even know what skill to look for in the first place? As a new player it would be a lot easier to see i could get a 3% bonus from Surgical Strike than have to go over each skill and read that. BLOPS Hauler
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 827	Posted - 2016.09.12 04:24:25 - [15] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Advantages should be only gained from application of knowledge, not the difficulty of obtaining it. Since when is reading skill descriptions difficult? what if you don't even know what skill to look for in the first place? As a new player it would be a lot easier to see i could get a 3% bonus from Surgical Strike than have to go over each skill and read that. Read the skills on market place. Looking at guns, go on down the line as an example. How I found controlled burst as a pure missile caldari pilot starting hybrid trains among others. Also what I have done recently on a return from a year break. Went to my fave skill book station/system...and on down the line read the skills. See whats new, see if needed/wanted. Saw I have to hit caps again for the damn weapon specializations and fighers too....sigh. Also did the same with another account I put on ice 3 years ago and thawed out this weekend. Read the lists, fair hunk of change since a lot changed in years. Take away for that char is I didn't assume my old bitter knowledge was valid. Good thing too....she has quite a list of books to catch up on. Faster than blog reading in my case. That fun reserved for questions like wtf happened to my worm. I know....that's what she said.
Lugh Crow-Slave 3082	Posted - 2016.09.12 04:27:57 - [16] - Quote you are saying that is easier than just looking at the current ship/mod you are interested in? BLOPS Hauler
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 827	Posted - 2016.09.12 05:15:02 - [17] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: you are saying that is easier than just looking at the current ship/mod you are interested in? Some cases yes. Only bombs and mgc need missile bombardment. No other item will list this skill as needed. Not using Mgc or training bomb launcher skill or not reading lists on market....no range for you potentially.
Iain Cariaba 3198	Posted - 2016.09.12 05:40:33 - [18] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: you are saying that is easier than just looking at the current ship/mod you are interested in? I find the market to be the best place to find out what skills do what. You don't even need to open an info window, as it's right there in the market listing. All it takes is a little initiative and willingness to put forth a little effort. That's my biggest complaint about suggestions like this and the inevitable rebuttal of "but the information is already there, this just makes it easier to get." You don't get anywhere in EvE without working for it. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Lugh Crow-Slave 3082	Posted - 2016.09.12 06:03:42 - [19] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: you are saying that is easier than just looking at the current ship/mod you are interested in? Some cases yes. Only bombs and mgc need missile bombardment. No other item will list this skill as needed. Not using Mgc or training bomb launcher skill or not reading lists on market....no range for you potentially. what does that have to do with making it easier to find this info by having it in two places. one of them being right on the mod info screen BLOPS Hauler
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1843	Posted - 2016.09.12 06:17:30 - [20] - Quote Plus some skills are not very clear or require another query to make things clear. For example energy grid upgrades, it reduces the CPU need for modules that require the energy upgrades skill. Now I have to look up what modules require the skill as well, whereas with the new tab I can just look at the module and know what affects it. Some skills are also not entirely clear. Drone interfacing affects fighters but that's not immediately obvious. Art of Explosions

Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 460	Posted - 2016.09.12 07:08:37 - [21] - Quote Having an "Affected by" section on Modules has been lacking for a long time. Trying to find every skill than effects a Module is a flamming nightmare, I've ended up using the right click in EFT so many times, just to see what can Affect the module/s I'm fitting.
Iain Cariaba 3199	Posted - 2016.09.12 07:37:10 - [22] - Quote Caldari 5 wrote: Having an "Affected by" section on Modules has been lacking for a long time. Trying to find every skill than effects a Module is a flamming nightmare, I've ended up using the right click in EFT so many times, just to see what can Affect the module/s I'm fitting. Look, you learned how to do some research and figure this out on your own. Honestly, if you step back look at things, outside weapons most modules are only impacted by one or two skills. It's not hard to think to yourself, "Hey, I want to see how I can get better results out of this ECM module," and go read the descriptions of the skills under the Electronics Systems portion of the skill tree, where you find the core skill for ECM. You've probably seen EvE's learning curve. Guess what, this is part of that curve. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 460	Posted - 2016.09.12 08:07:58 - [23] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Caldari 5 wrote: Having an "Affected by" section on Modules has been lacking for a long time. Trying to find every skill than effects a Module is a flamming nightmare, I've ended up using the right click in EFT so many times, just to see what can Affect the module/s I'm fitting. Look, you learned how to do some research and figure this out on your own. Honestly, if you step back look at things, outside weapons most modules are only impacted by one or two skills. It's not hard to think to yourself, "Hey, I want to see how I can get better results out of this ECM module," and go read the descriptions of the skills under the Electronics Systems portion of the skill tree, where you find the core skill for ECM. You've probably seen EvE's learning curve. Guess what, this is part of that curve. I honestly think that having to use out of game resources to do something that should be in the game is a stupid. Just because I've figured out that the out of game resources are available for this doesn't mean that some new player will find it anytime soon. And not all of the related skills are always in a single Portion of the skill tree. Heck I know that I never trained Thermodynamics for the longest time because I thought that it was a Science skill and not a combat related skill. Yes and this change would help in fixing that learning curve.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 988	Posted - 2016.09.12 14:04:20 - [24] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Wanting to preserve a slight advantage I have because I've taken the time to read through the skill descriptions to learn that skill x impacts module y or ship z is neither useless nor irrelevant. As you said, the information is already in game. It is also very easy to find, as it's right there in the skill descriptions. Asking CCP to put all of this easily available information in one place is the very definition of having it spoon fed to you. Did you even bother to read the OP, or is this just another of your blind NO to any change in the game type of responses. I ask because of this, the very first sentence in the origianl post. Swiftstrike1 wrote: When we look at the information available for a ship or module, there is a tab that tells us what skills we need to learn before we can use it. The OP is not asking for this information to be added to some new gathering of all information thingy, he is simply asking for a language change in the "tab" where this information is already displayed for those who bother to look. Another way to put this perhaps. With his change the information will not be moved to a new location. With this change the information will not be added to anything new in game. With this change only a few words will be changed in the existing dialog, a dialog that already contains this information. Given these your entire argument about removing your advantage because you read is moot since to see the changes they need to open the same information source you used and they will still need to read it. Since your arguments are based on the false premise that the OP wants to make it easier to find this information your arguments are useless and irrelevant.
Zoltan Cole State Protectorate Caldari State 6	Posted - 2016.09.12 17:17:41 - [25] - Quote This was already an announced feature. http://i.imgur.com/dAZBppC.jpg / https://youtu.be/sbHqFgn4SOw?t=22m12s
Old Pervert Perkone Caldari State 5	Posted - 2016.09.12 20:37:50 - [26] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? Soo much salt! Back in my day we had to walk up hill in the snow! Both ways! With no shoes! And if we didn't hurry we got beaten when we got home! We didn't have these fancy paved roads with school buses driving on them! You kids have it too easy!
Iain Cariaba 3202	Posted - 2016.09.12 23:08:09 - [27] - Quote Old Pervert wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Why should those who have invested the time and effort into learning these things now suddenly have all that flushed down the toilet? Soo much salt! Back in my day we had to walk up hill in the snow! Both ways! With no shoes! And if we didn't hurry we got beaten when we got home! We didn't have these fancy paved roads with school buses driving on them! You kids have it too easy! See, you understand. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Wimzy Chent-Shi Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins. 91	Posted - 2016.09.13 09:14:47 - [28] - Quote Don't split anything but make "relevant skills" tab for mod/ship explicitly stating that gun may benefit from surgical strike which perhaps a noob never heard of unless he/she randomly browses market. Something masteries should have done b4 they have proven absolute bs. Make a newbro foundation started @ here Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
Swiftstrike1 Swiftstrike Incorporated 912	Posted - 2016.09.17 12:42:09 - [29] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: I find the market to be the best place to find out what skills do what. THIS is the problem! When the best tool for learning about our game is a market browser that was never intended for that purpose, it is clear to me that the tools which ARE designed for learning about the game are inadequate. Iain Cariaba wrote: Wanting to preserve a slight advantage I have because I've taken the time to read through the skill descriptions to learn that skill x impacts module y or ship z is neither useless nor irrelevant. Let's make something absolutely clear: knowledge barriers are toxic to new player retention. Any attempts to create or "preserve" barriers of that kind between new and existing players have a negative impact on the playerbase. Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Caldari 5 D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S Affirmative. 461	Posted - 2016.09.19 09:00:34 - [30] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Iain Cariaba wrote: Wanting to preserve a slight advantage I have because I've taken the time to read through the skill descriptions to learn that skill x impacts module y or ship z is neither useless nor irrelevant. Let's make something absolutely clear: knowledge barriers are toxic to new player retention. Any attempts to create or "preserve" barriers of that kind between new and existing players have a negative impact on the playerbase. Not empty quoting



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